[governance] Hmmmm... Google: "Internet Freedom!"... (from taxes?

Suresh Ramasubramanian suresh at hserus.net
Fri Dec 7 08:47:41 EST 2012 

:)  In other words, calling McTim's statements a lie rather than calling him a liar?

No, no game at all.  Just tired of petty politics.  

--srs (iPad)

On 07-Dec-2012, at 19:11, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:

> Au contraire SRS
> 
> He called the internationalism phony- it is even highlighted with quotes. 
> 
> Are you exacerbating matters here? Precision counts in a charge like this. What's your game?
> 
> On 2012/12/07 09:27 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
>> Parminder, if you persist in using terms like phony to refer to McTim and then call the list police down on Milton for allegedly being rude to you, that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black. 
>> 
>> --srs (htc one x)
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Reply message -----
>> From: "parminder" <parminder at itforchange.net>
>> To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>> Subject: [governance] Hmmmm... Google: "Internet Freedom!"... (from taxes?
>> Date: Fri, Dec 7, 2012 12:39 PM
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thursday 06 December 2012 07:32 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
>> >
>> > Riaz,
>> >
>> > Like Parminder, you’ve overused this charge of “American 
>> > exceptionalism,” to the point where it reflects more on you than on 
>> > the target. Indeed if you, like Parminder, apply it to me it shows 
>> > that you are completely ignorant of my writings on the subject or that 
>> > you are simply hurling a blanket epithet at whoever is standing 
>> > around, whenever they disagree. So, no point in discussing further.
>> >
>> 
>> Milton,
>> 
>> Dont know why you are pulling me into this out of nowhere .... but if 
>> you want me to come in, here i am, at your service :)
>> 
>> (BTW, I must first say that I find your recent comments to Riaz 
>> extremely rude, and I hope that the concerned duty bearers are taking note.)
>> 
>> So, you object to the use of the term 'US exceptionalism'! You are on 
>> record asserting repeatedly that you think ICANN should continue to be 
>> subject to US laws, at least in the areas of regulation of non-profits, 
>> competition and FoE...... presumable more...... (in any case an entity 
>> is either subject to a jurisdiction, or it is not; there are no choices 
>> available for an entity to be subject to some laws and not others).
>> 
>> Have you not said so? Please do let us know if you havent, and even if 
>> you have changed your mind now.
>> 
>> In the above regard you dont even agree with those who seek, what I call 
>> as, 'phoney internationalisation' (McTim's case) whereby ICANN 
>> internationalisation is sought without being able to suggest any 
>> credible institutional basis for doing it. (You are perhaps too 
>> politically clued-in and can make out that such phony 
>> internationalisation without providing the political- institutional 
>> basis for it is simply not possible.)
>> 
>> You however do not agree for ICANN to be subject to international law, 
>> or laws of other countries (do you agree to ICANN shifting to New 
>> Delhi?) , and you want it to be subject to US laws. Now that is 
>> literately 'US exceptionalism', isnt it! I cant see how the term can be 
>> applied more accurately than in this case.....
>> 
>> parminder
>> 
>> 
>> > *From:*governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org 
>> > [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] *On Behalf Of *Riaz K Tayob
>> > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 4:06 PM
>> > *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Dominique Lacroix
>> > *Subject:* Re: [governance] Hmmmm... Google: "Internet Freedom!"... 
>> > (from taxes?
>> >
>> > Frankly I am not sure what kind of institutionalist Milton is. This is 
>> > not the Alexander Hamilton, Daniel Rayomond, Richard Ely, E Pershine 
>> > Smith, Frederich List and JK Galbraith, who all had a keen head for 
>> > facts and history.
>> >
>> > Britain used free trade ideas as a means to maintain its dominance 
>> > over other nations. The workshop of the world that encouraged everyone 
>> > to liberalise, that free trade (and then classical economics) was 
>> > best. And in the Pax (?) Americana, neoclassical economics (in 
>> > infinite disguises) and the Washington Consensus serves the same 
>> > function.
>> >
>> > Now I have no truck disagreeing with Mueller on economics - these 
>> > approaches differ in method as well as context, so there is room for 
>> > disagreement. But on the politics of the matter (sorry Milton, for 
>> > some Institutionalists if it is relevant then it must be included in 
>> > the "calculation") Milton, with what I surmise from his 
>> > Institutionalism - not having read all his work, is no different from 
>> > American Exceptionalists on this list. Of course I am aware that in 
>> > the American context(where what passes for progressive is quit 
>> > different, this may well be the case. It simply cannot be generalised.
>> >
>> > And in the "competition" through subsidised efforts Europe builds 
>> > capabilities - both the tech no-(harware) and -ology (its people). One 
>> > of the key elements of benefiting from a network is that skills can be 
>> > diffused. Consumption of technology rich goods is not the same as 
>> > producing them. Actually in a reverse sort of way the status quoists 
>> > (exceptionalists, Institutionalists of a special type, neoliberals, 
>> > etc) seek to maintain the US dominance by playing to that nations 
>> > comparative advantage - also in institutions like ICANN and the posse 
>> > that goes with it.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2012/12/05 10:25 PM, Dominique Lacroix wrote:
>> >
>> >     Le 05/12/12 20:26, Milton L Mueller a écrit :
>> >
>> >         "Frankly", development of the TCP/IP protocols were supported
>> >         by military research contracts, which had no intention of
>> >         supporting a commercial industry. "The Internet" spread to the
>> >         general population and succeeded because of telecommunications
>> >         liberalization and a free market.
>> >
>> >     Dear Milton, you seem a little dizzy. You skipped merrily the NSF
>> >     action in the 1981-1995 years...
>> >     And then, also, the CIA action, via the In-Q-Tel venture capital
>> >     firm, launched in 1999.
>> >     And also the military orders in the advanced IT field.
>> >     Perhaps I forget something. I'm also a bit dizzy...
>> >
>> >     The government played an important role in facilitating that
>> >     process by privatizing control and paving the way for competition
>> >     among ISPs. There is no doubt about that.
>> >
>> >     Exact. And not enough: Google should be prosecuted for dominance
>> >     abuse.
>> >
>> >     While we are being frank, perhaps you can tell me how successful
>> >     European efforts to subsidize search engine technology to compete
>> >     with Google has been?
>> >
>> >     I assume you already heard about the networks effect that gives an
>> >     advantage to the first big player.
>> >     That's exactly why China and other countries protect their
>> >     boundaries in order to help their IT industry to find existence.
>> >
>> >     Do you think that Europe also ought to close their virtual boundaries?
>> >
>> >     @+, Dom
>> >
>> >
>> >     Please frankly, Milton, did internet begin in the US by free
>> >     market or by the US Gov action?
>> >
> 
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