[governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism Wikileaks) America's vassal acts decisively and illegally
parminder
parminder at itforchange.net
Mon Aug 20 09:30:39 EDT 2012
Relax Koven,
I too got my message to the IGC list, and it is clear that I am
responding to Mawaki's text. Your sign is caught somewhere down there
because it is a series of exchanges. Of course i did not change anything
about the message. Why would I attach your signatures to messages ????
parminder
On Monday 20 August 2012 06:49 PM, Koven Ronald wrote:
> Parminder --
>
> This is a total falsification. I did not write the message to which
> you have apparently attached my signature. Maybe you''re not
> responsible for this, but someone on this list is. I'm entitled to an
> explanation and an apology from the person who has done this.
> deliberately or not.
>
> Rony Koven
>
> > without necessary the possibility to classified in a compelling manner
> > which ones are the best for everybody? And how do we negotiate the
> > values that will prevail for a global infrastructure? It seems to me
> > those are relevant questions we have been wrestling with in this space
> > and other IG-related forums for quite a while now. Mawaki Disclaimer:
> > I think Assange is not a saint; he has the duty to answer for his
> > actions that fall under existing laws like any other citizens, no more
> > no less. My understanding is that most people who seem to keep a
> > critical eye on UK, Sweden (and maybe ultimately the US) in this are
> > not doing so necessarily for the individual Assange, but because they
> > are worry about the possibility of politically motivated charges. You
> > may call that conspiracy theory, but I suspect, from the arguments
> > they are making, that they have some good reasons not to rule out that
> > possibility as yet.
> >> Best regards, Rony Koven
> >>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>
> To: governance <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
> Sent: Mon, Aug 20, 2012 2:26 pm
> Subject: Re: [governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism Wikileaks)
> America's vassal acts decisively and illegally
>
>
> On Monday 20 August 2012 05:25 AM, Mawaki Chango wrote:
> > snip
>
> > In this particular case of Wikileaks, it seems the tables have turned,
> > at least for some: the extreme defense of free speech no longer
> > applies, or maybe has never applied, to freedom of information? Does
> > anyone on this list still believe that policy - including policy for
> > technical infrastructure - does not involve worldviews and values,
> > which are diverse around the world,
>
> Yes, apparently your institution-mate, Milton :) ....
>
> > without necessary the possibility to classified in a compelling manner
> > which ones are the best for everybody? And how do we negotiate the
> > values that will prevail for a global infrastructure? It seems to me
> > those are relevant questions we have been wrestling with in this space
> > and other IG-related forums for quite a while now. Mawaki Disclaimer:
> > I think Assange is not a saint; he has the duty to answer for his
> > actions that fall under existing laws like any other citizens, no more
> > no less. My understanding is that most people who seem to keep a
> > critical eye on UK, Sweden (and maybe ultimately the US) in this are
> > not doing so necessarily for the individual Assange, but because they
> > are worry about the possibility of politically motivated charges. You
> > may call that conspiracy theory, but I suspect, from the arguments
> > they are making, that they have some good reasons not to rule out that
> > possibility as yet.
> >> Best regards, Rony Koven
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com <mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>>
> >> To: governance <governance at lists.igcaucus.org <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>>; Ginger Paque
> >> <gpaque at gmail.com <mailto:gpaque at gmail.com>>
> >> Cc: Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu <mailto:dl at panamo.eu>>
> >> Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 7:57 pm
> >> Subject: Re: [governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism Wikileaks) America's
> >> vassal acts decisively and illegally
> >>
> >> Assange is referring to this as a witchhunt, see:
> >>http://www.newsday.com/news/world/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-calls-on-obama-to-end-witch-hunt-1.3913652
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:29 AM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com <mailto:gpaque at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>> Excellent post, Dominique. Gracias!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
> >>>
> >>>VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu <mailto:VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu>
> >>> Diplo Foundation
> >>> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
> >>>www.diplomacy.edu/ig <http://www.diplomacy.edu/ig>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 19 August 2012 12:25, Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu <mailto:dl at panamo.eu>> wrote:
> >>>> That story seems to be all about secret at the information age!
> >>>> Assange got 2 love stories. In both cases, the women invited him in her
> >>>> bed.
> >>>> The case is about what happened there. Sex by surprise? That should stay
> >>>> secret, as long as the women were not injured. Actually, they never
> >>>> complained for that.
> >>>>
> >>>> At the contrary, Bradley Manning and Wikileaks revealed what should not
> >>>> be kept secret:
> >>>> - Civilians (journalists and children) murders by US soldiers in Iraq.
> >>>>
> >>>>http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/06/us-iraq-usa-journalists-idUSTRE6344FW20100406
> >>>> - Orders given to diplomates to spy UN leaders (DNA, passwords, credit
> >>>> card numbers etc.)
> >>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-spying-un
> >>>> - And so on.
> >>>>
> >>>> Nevertheless, of course I agree with Ginger and Mawaki: crime allegations
> >>>> are displaced manipulations AND we cannot just ignore the sexual misconduct
> >>>> allegations.
> >>>>
> >>>> But at this stage of the worldwide imbroglio, it's too late for having a
> >>>> neutral trial in Sweden. Could you imagine a Swedish Court concluding:
> "Much
> >>>> ado about nothing"? So public opinion mobilization is important. We are the
> >>>> witnesses.
> >>>> And at this hour, I would like to hear the two women. I'm not sure that
> >>>> the story is still their story...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Some strange points must not be forgotten. Just some clues for new
> >>>> readers of the case:
> >>>>
> >>>> - Feminist fighters should be very happy to see that nowadays police
> >>>> force all around the world hunt rapers as it's done for Assange.
> >>>> A famous feminist wrote about the case. Just search for Naomi Wolf.
> >>>>
> >>>>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/interpol-the-worlds-datin_b_793033.html
> >>>>
> >>>> - Assange already talked with Swedish authorities.
> >>>> Convened because of Swedish demand, he went spontaneously to the London
> >>>> police.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Swedish authorities aren't clear on the case, first closed and then
> >>>> reopened:
> >>>>
> >>>>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/rape-investigation-into-wikileaks-chief-reopens-2068162.html
> >>>>
> >>>> - It's well established that Assange had two love stories with fans in
> >>>> Stockholm and then Enköping.
> >>>> The first with the famous Anna Ardin, a feminist fighter whose blog
> >>>> explained how to get revenge against men:
> >>>>
> >>>>http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/7569087-meet-anna-ardin-photos-anna-ardins-7-steps-to-legal-revenge
> >>>>
> >>>> And so on. It's not the good place for further analyzing that case. But
> >>>> doubt is widely allowed.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> @+, Dominique
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Dominique Lacroix
> >>>> Société européenne de l'Internet
> >>>>http://www.ies-france.eu
> >>>> +33 (0)6 63 24 39 14
> >>>>
> >>>> Le 19/08/12 16:11, Mawaki Chango a écrit :
> >>>>
> >>>> Completely agree with Ginger here...
> >>>> We can't pretend to ignore the elephant in the room: at this point
> >>>> there's no part of this story that can be clearly separated from
> >>>> Wikileaks - if only given all the shady zones in this imbroglio. And
> >>>> yes, it is unfortunate that the rape issue is now and then exploited
> >>>> in ways that can undermine legitimate claims. Again a lot remains
> >>>> unclear, unfortunately, due to the behavior of the Sweden's
> >>>> government.
> >>>>
> >>>> mawaki
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com <mailto:gpaque at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> This may be IG related in the sense that WikiLeaks involves IG, and the
> >>>> sexual misconduct case may (I say 'may' because I simply do not have all
> >>>> of
> >>>> the facts) be a manipulation of the WikiLeaks case.
> >>>>
> >>>> My firmest point is that the two issues should be separated, the sexual
> >>>> misconduct case addressed, and the central case, WikiLeaks, get back in
> >>>> focus.
> >>>>
> >>>> I dislike/resent the use of women/gender/sex as a tool that undermines
> >>>> the
> >>>> case for legitimate cases of sexual misconduct. If Assange/Assange's
> >>>> lawyers
> >>>> would force the sexual misconduct issue (without going to Sweden--on
> >>>> video,
> >>>> webinar, whatever), it would remove this distraction from the picture,
> >>>> and
> >>>> force the UK to show its hand. In the meantime, we cannot just ignore the
> >>>> sexual misconduct allegations. Women and sexual misconduct charges should
> >>>> not be used as legal manipulations and distractions.
> >>>> Ginger
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
> >>>>
> >>>>VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu <mailto:VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu>
> >>>> Diplo Foundation
> >>>> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
> >>>>www.diplomacy.edu/ig <http://www.diplomacy.edu/ig>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 19 August 2012 08:48, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp <mailto:ajp at glocom.ac.jp>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> You know that the 5 biggest financial institutions Bank of America, Visa,
> >>>> mastercard, wester union and paypal decided to block donations to
> >>>> wikileaks
> >>>> reducing it in 95%? Censorship? Have here an IG issue as requested for
> >>>> some
> >>>> people here?
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, but what have the 5 banks to do with Assange's alleged assaults?
> >>>>
> >>>> Don't get me wrong, wikileaks is incredibly important, but I do not see
> >>>> the connection between the issues in this thread and Internet governance.
> >>>> If you want to change the subject, fine :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Pussy Riot more relevant, part of their "crime" being posting their
> >>>> protest on the Internet.
> >>>>
> >>>> Adam
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> you can still send donations usinghttps://flattr.com/
> >>>>
> >>>> Carlos Vera
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>> El 19/08/2012, a las 6:42, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp <mailto:ajp at glocom.ac.jp>> escribió:
> >>>>
> >>>> Dominique, hi.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu <mailto:dl at panamo.eu>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Rape? Charged?
> >>>>
> >>>> Assange's lawyer's say accused. But the european arrest warrant the
> >>>> UK believes it must enforce says he is wanted for prosecution. I'm
> >>>> not a lawyer, not clue about the difference.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. Assange is not (yet) charged. The judge only wants to ask him some
> >>>> questions. Telecom provide some means, indeed...
> >>>> 2. Rape? Perhaps some of us on this list, men AND women, are rapers at
> >>>> a
> >>>> Swedish sense:
> >>>>
> >>>> I very much hope not.
> >>>>
> >>>> Indecent assault isn't that common, is it? As you note the offense
> >>>> carries a maximum 4 year sentence. Not trivial.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "Under Swedish law, there are legal gradations of the definition of
> >>>> rape.
> >>>> There is the most serious kind, involving major violence.
> >>>> But below that there is the concept of 'regular rape', still involving
> >>>> violence but not violence of the utmost horror.
> >>>> And below that there is the idea of 'unlawful coercion'. Talking
> >>>> generally,
> >>>> and not about the Assange case, this might involve putting emotional
> >>>> pressure on someone.
> >>>>
> >>>> The three categories involve prison sentences of 10, six and four
> >>>> years
> >>>> respectively.
> >>>> The lawyer for the two women who have complained against Mr Assange
> >>>> will not
> >>>> spell out the details because he says that would give too much away to
> >>>> the
> >>>> accused man. But he does indicate that it is a four-year sentence that
> >>>> Mr
> >>>> Assange could expect, indicating that he is suspected of this third,
> >>>> less
> >>>> serious category."
> >>>>
> >>>> And the great conclusion is:
> >>>>
> >>>> "The attitude towards rape in Sweden - informed by a strong sense of
> >>>> women's
> >>>> rights - means that it is more likely to be reported to police.
> >>>> Some 53 rape offences are reported per 100,000 people, the highest
> >>>> rate in
> >>>> Europe.
> >>>> The figures may reflect a higher number of actual rapes committed but
> >>>> it
> >>>> seems more likely that tough attitudes and a broader definition of the
> >>>> crime
> >>>> are more significant factors."
> >>>>
> >>>> See:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11946652
> >>>>
> >>>> Isn't it a bit unbalanced, facing whistleblowers issue?
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, Adam, CIA or not CIA, this case seems to me two Internet
> >>>> Governance
> >>>> issues.
> >>>> - Lawful here, unlawful there.
> >>>> - Whistleblowers right at the Digital age.
> >>>>
> >>>> How would you deal with these questions?
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorry, don't get it, what has Assange's situation to do with Internet
> >>>> governance, even in its broadest sense? He didn't do anything online
> >>>> or on the Internet, he is accused of assaulting two women. And those
> >>>> two people seem to be being very much overlooked at the moment.
> >>>>
> >>>> Adam
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> @+, Dominique
> >>>>
> >>>> Dominique Lacroix
> >>>> Société européenne de l'Internet
> >>>>http://www.ies-france.eu
> >>>> +33 (0)6 63 24 39 14
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Le 19/08/12 12:28, Fahd A. Batayneh a écrit :
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Ginger Paque <ginger at paque.net <mailto:ginger at paque.net>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I admire Assange. I am glad he has the courage to carry out his
> >>>> WikiLeaks
> >>>> work. I don't think he should be persecuted, or face politically
> >>>> motivated
> >>>> harassment or charge.
> >>>>
> >>>> >>> I don't think being a legitimate social hero allows him to avoid
> >>>> facing
> >>>>
> >>>> charges of rape if the are legitimate.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ginger
> >>>>
> >>>> That makes us 2 Ginger. ROCK ON!
> >>>>
> >>>> Fahd
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ____________________________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> >> P.O. Box 17862
> >> Suva
> >> Fiji
> >>
> >> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> >> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> >> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________________________
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> >>
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