[governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism Wikileaks) America's vassal acts decisively and illegally
Chaitanya Dhareshwar
chaitanyabd at gmail.com
Mon Aug 20 08:32:47 EDT 2012
"American Exceptionalism, which is implicit in the CHOICE of supporting the
Status Quo of current Internet Governance arrangements ON THIS LIST, was
raised and *needs to be interrogated.*"
Actually that's what we're doing here; I dont think anyone is blindly
supporting the status quo - we're talking pros and cons and discussing it
out.... Naturally all of us being in differant locations, environments have
a slightly different view on things; let's put our head together on this -
we'll be able to come out with a truly unique solution. :)
-C
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps if there was some "balance" then ANYONE arguing for "American
> Exceptionalism" on this list should also be chastised - otherwise it is a
> double standard. Those who cannot at once criticise the Assange discussion
> and arguments for American Exceptionalism is taking a POLITICAL position
> imho. And for me ONLY a negative inference can be made from this regarding
> their values/ethical position as far as issues that concern governance is
> concerned, since appeal must be made to reason not emotions.
>
> American Exceptionalism, which is implicit in the CHOICE of supporting the
> Status Quo of current Internet Governance arrangements ON THIS LIST, was
> raised and needs to be interrogated.
>
> Actually it was Abe Lincoln who said that something to the effect that
> dissent is the highest form of patriotism. So this discussion is not
> anti-Americanism, and such name calling (as progressive as it might be in
> some circles must be called out for what it is) but about a call to the
> highest virtues of the founding fathers of America and drafters of the
> American constitution (who were inspired (if I recall correctly!) by
> Kantian ideas that information (access to information in modern parlance)
> was essential to meaningful participation of citizens).
>
> And a word on feminist claims for action. The issue has moved on, and few
> are contesting the seriousness of the claims against him. So if the issue
> has moved on, is a reasonable feminist position (putting the interests of
> the complainants first) not one that should insist that he be questioned
> (as he has agreed to do) at the embassy and take the matter head on? And if
> this is not argued and motivated for then a reasonable feminism is being
> held hostage in the name of saving feminism. But then double standards are
> not new in defence of this farce that is playing out. In any event, Mark
> Weisbrot reported (UK Guardian 21 Jul 2012) that Sweden sought extradition
> which the former Stockholm Chief District prosecutor Sven-Erik Alhem
> testified<http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=P9%2B7mB7zOLDxY7KVO4TsMVpips2qHQK9>was “unreasonable and unprofessional, as well as unfair and
> disproportionate.” He could simply be questioned in the UK. One can only
> wonder at the intentions behind such serious allegations not being
> expeditiously dealt with.
>
> And btw, no one will jump in arguing for "balance" on this list when
> American Exceptionalism is touted about - but name-calling is back in
> vogue.
>
> This is a bald attempt at censorship of the discussion on this list, and
> should be treated with the contempt it deserves.
>
>
> On 2012/08/19 11:57 PM, Koven Ronald wrote:
>
> Dear All --
>
> Dear All --
>
> I've been very reluctant to get into this discussion about Assange,
> which really does have little or nothing to do with Internet governance (as
> others on the list have noted), but the standard conspiracy theories that
> seem to be favored by many on the list -- and which Assange also encourages
> -- really don't seem to hold up to close scrutiny
>
> Swedish sources who know what they are talking about say that the
> Swedish government is deeply embarassed by the whole mess, created by an
> uncontrollable, overzealous prosecutor who really sees this as an important
> feminist issue. Ironically, Assange is now being defended by a former
> Spanish investigating magistrate whose zeal was equally embarassing to the
> Spanish government.
>
> Quite aside from that, from my perspective and that of many of my most
> thoughtful American journalistic colleagues, it is clear that Assange is
> motivated by a very strong streak of political anti-Americanism -- that he
> means to embarass the US government as much as possible. That may be a
> perfectly legitimate for a political activist. But it undercuts any claim
> to be a journalist, Professional journalists aren't supposed to follow
> political agendas.
>
> Best regards, Rony Koven
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com><salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
> To: governance <governance at lists.igcaucus.org><governance at lists.igcaucus.org>;
> Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> <gpaque at gmail.com>
> Cc: Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu> <dl at panamo.eu>
> Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 7:57 pm
> Subject: Re: [governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism Wikileaks)
> America's vassal acts decisively and illegally
>
> Assange is referring to this as a witchhunt, see:
> http://www.newsday.com/news/world/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-calls-on-obama-to-end-witch-hunt-1.3913652
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:29 AM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Excellent post, Dominique. Gracias!
>>
>>
>> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>>
>> VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
>> Diplo Foundation
>> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
>> www.diplomacy.edu/ig
>>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19 August 2012 12:25, Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu> wrote:
>>
>>> That story seems to be all about secret at the information age!
>>> Assange got 2 love stories. In both cases, the women invited him in her
>>> bed.
>>> The case is about what happened there. Sex by surprise? That *should
>>> stay secret*, as long as the women were not injured. Actually, they
>>> never complained for that.
>>>
>>> At the contrary, Bradley Manning and Wikileaks revealed what *should
>>> not be kept secret*:
>>> - Civilians (journalists and children) murders by US soldiers in Iraq.
>>>
>>> http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/06/us-iraq-usa-journalists-idUSTRE6344FW20100406
>>> - Orders given to diplomates to spy UN leaders (DNA, passwords, credit
>>> card numbers etc.)
>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-spying-un
>>> - And so on.
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, of course I agree with Ginger and Mawaki: crime
>>> allegations are displaced manipulations AND we cannot just ignore the
>>> sexual misconduct allegations.
>>>
>>> But at this stage of the worldwide imbroglio, it's too late for having a
>>> neutral trial in Sweden. Could you imagine a Swedish Court concluding: "
>>> *Much ado about nothing*"? So public opinion mobilization is important.
>>> We are the witnesses.
>>> And at this hour, I would like to hear the two women. I'm not sure that
>>> the story is still their story...
>>>
>>>
>>> Some strange points must not be forgotten. Just some clues for new
>>> readers of the case:
>>>
>>> - Feminist fighters should be very happy to see that *nowadays police
>>> force all around the world hunt rapers* as it's done for Assange.
>>> A famous feminist wrote about the case. Just search for Naomi Wolf.
>>>
>>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/interpol-the-worlds-datin_b_793033.html
>>>
>>> - Assange *already talked *with Swedish authorities.
>>> Convened because of Swedish demand, he *went spontaneously* to the
>>> London police.
>>>
>>> - Swedish authorities aren't clear on the case,* first closed and then
>>> reopened*:
>>>
>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/rape-investigation-into-wikileaks-chief-reopens-2068162.html
>>>
>>> - It's well established that Assange had two love stories with fans in
>>> Stockholm and then Enköping.
>>> The first with the famous Anna Ardin, a feminist fighter whose blog
>>> explained *how to get revenge against men*:
>>>
>>> http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/7569087-meet-anna-ardin-photos-anna-ardins-7-steps-to-legal-revenge
>>>
>>> And so on. It's not the good place for further analyzing that case. But
>>> doubt is widely allowed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> @+, Dominique
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dominique Lacroix
>>> Société européenne de l'Internet
>>> http://www.ies-france.eu
>>> +33 (0)6 63 24 39 14
>>>
>>> Le 19/08/12 16:11, Mawaki Chango a écrit :
>>>
>>> Completely agree with Ginger here...
>>> We can't pretend to ignore the elephant in the room: at this point
>>> there's no part of this story that can be clearly separated from
>>> Wikileaks - if only given all the shady zones in this imbroglio. And
>>> yes, it is unfortunate that the rape issue is now and then exploited
>>> in ways that can undermine legitimate claims. Again a lot remains
>>> unclear, unfortunately, due to the behavior of the Sweden's
>>> government.
>>>
>>> mawaki
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> <gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> This may be IG related in the sense that WikiLeaks involves IG, and the
>>> sexual misconduct case may (I say 'may' because I simply do not have all of
>>> the facts) be a manipulation of the WikiLeaks case.
>>>
>>> My firmest point is that the two issues should be separated, the sexual
>>> misconduct case addressed, and the central case, WikiLeaks, get back in
>>> focus.
>>>
>>> I dislike/resent the use of women/gender/sex as a tool that undermines the
>>> case for legitimate cases of sexual misconduct. If Assange/Assange's lawyers
>>> would force the sexual misconduct issue (without going to Sweden--on video,
>>> webinar, whatever), it would remove this distraction from the picture, and
>>> force the UK to show its hand. In the meantime, we cannot just ignore the
>>> sexual misconduct allegations. Women and sexual misconduct charges should
>>> not be used as legal manipulations and distractions.
>>> Ginger
>>>
>>>
>>> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>>> VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
>>> Diplo Foundation
>>> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programmewww.diplomacy.edu/ig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 August 2012 08:48, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>>>
>>> You know that the 5 biggest financial institutions Bank of America, Visa,
>>> mastercard, wester union and paypal decided to block donations to wikileaks
>>> reducing it in 95%? Censorship? Have here an IG issue as requested for some
>>> people here?
>>>
>>> Yes, but what have the 5 banks to do with Assange's alleged assaults?
>>>
>>> Don't get me wrong, wikileaks is incredibly important, but I do not see
>>> the connection between the issues in this thread and Internet governance.
>>> If you want to change the subject, fine :-)
>>>
>>> Pussy Riot more relevant, part of their "crime" being posting their
>>> protest on the Internet.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> you can still send donations using https://flattr.com/
>>>
>>> Carlos Vera
>>>
>>>
>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone
>>>
>>> El 19/08/2012, a las 6:42, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> escribió:
>>>
>>>
>>> Dominique, hi.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu> <dl at panamo.eu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Rape? Charged?
>>>
>>>
>>> Assange's lawyer's say accused. But the european arrest warrant the
>>> UK believes it must enforce says he is wanted for prosecution. I'm
>>> not a lawyer, not clue about the difference.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. Assange is not (yet) charged. The judge only wants to ask him some
>>> questions. Telecom provide some means, indeed...
>>> 2. Rape? Perhaps some of us on this list, men AND women, are rapers at
>>> a
>>> Swedish sense:
>>>
>>>
>>> I very much hope not.
>>>
>>> Indecent assault isn't that common, is it? As you note the offense
>>> carries a maximum 4 year sentence. Not trivial.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Under Swedish law, there are legal gradations of the definition of
>>> rape.
>>> There is the most serious kind, involving major violence.
>>> But below that there is the concept of 'regular rape', still involving
>>> violence but not violence of the utmost horror.
>>> And below that there is the idea of 'unlawful coercion'. Talking
>>> generally,
>>> and not about the Assange case, this might involve putting emotional
>>> pressure on someone.
>>>
>>> The three categories involve prison sentences of 10, six and four
>>> years
>>> respectively.
>>> The lawyer for the two women who have complained against Mr Assange
>>> will not
>>> spell out the details because he says that would give too much away to
>>> the
>>> accused man. But he does indicate that it is a four-year sentence that
>>> Mr
>>> Assange could expect, indicating that he is suspected of this third,
>>> less
>>> serious category."
>>>
>>> And the great conclusion is:
>>>
>>> "The attitude towards rape in Sweden - informed by a strong sense of
>>> women's
>>> rights - means that it is more likely to be reported to police.
>>> Some 53 rape offences are reported per 100,000 people, the highest
>>> rate in
>>> Europe.
>>> The figures may reflect a higher number of actual rapes committed but
>>> it
>>> seems more likely that tough attitudes and a broader definition of the
>>> crime
>>> are more significant factors."
>>>
>>> See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11946652
>>>
>>> Isn't it a bit unbalanced, facing whistleblowers issue?
>>>
>>> Yes, Adam, CIA or not CIA, this case seems to me two Internet
>>> Governance
>>> issues.
>>> - Lawful here, unlawful there.
>>> - Whistleblowers right at the Digital age.
>>>
>>> How would you deal with these questions?
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, don't get it, what has Assange's situation to do with Internet
>>> governance, even in its broadest sense? He didn't do anything online
>>> or on the Internet, he is accused of assaulting two women. And those
>>> two people seem to be being very much overlooked at the moment.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> @+, Dominique
>>>
>>> Dominique Lacroix
>>> Société européenne de l'Internet
>>> http://www.ies-france.eu
>>> +33 (0)6 63 24 39 14
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 19/08/12 12:28, Fahd A. Batayneh a écrit :
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Ginger Paque <ginger at paque.net> <ginger at paque.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I admire Assange. I am glad he has the courage to carry out his
>>> WikiLeaks
>>> work. I don't think he should be persecuted, or face politically
>>> motivated
>>> harassment or charge.
>>>
>>> >>> I don't think being a legitimate social hero allows him to avoid
>>> facing
>>>
>>> charges of rape if the are legitimate.
>>>
>>> Ginger
>>>
>>> That makes us 2 Ginger. ROCK ON!
>>>
>>> Fahd
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
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