<div>"American Exceptionalism, which is implicit in the CHOICE of supporting the Status Quo of current Internet Governance arrangements ON THIS LIST, was raised and <strong><em>needs to be interrogated.</em></strong>"</div>
<div> </div><div>Actually that's what we're doing here; I dont think anyone is blindly supporting the status quo - we're talking pros and cons and discussing it out.... Naturally all of us being in differant locations, environments have a slightly different view on things; let's put our head together on this - we'll be able to come out with a truly unique solution. :)</div>
<div> </div><div> </div><div>-C<br><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Riaz K Tayob <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:riaz.tayob@gmail.com" target="_blank">riaz.tayob@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Perhaps if there was some "balance" then ANYONE arguing for
"American Exceptionalism" on this list should also be chastised -
otherwise it is a double standard. Those who cannot at once
criticise the Assange discussion and arguments for American
Exceptionalism is taking a POLITICAL position imho. And for me ONLY
a negative inference can be made from this regarding their
values/ethical position as far as issues that concern governance is
concerned, since appeal must be made to reason not emotions.<br>
<br>
American Exceptionalism, which is implicit in the CHOICE of
supporting the Status Quo of current Internet Governance
arrangements ON THIS LIST, was raised and needs to be interrogated.<br>
<br>
Actually it was Abe Lincoln who said that something to the effect
that dissent is the highest form of patriotism. So this discussion
is not anti-Americanism, and such name calling (as progressive as it
might be in some circles must be called out for what it is) but
about a call to the highest virtues of the founding fathers of
America and drafters of the American constitution (who were inspired
(if I recall correctly!) by Kantian ideas that information (access
to information in modern parlance) was essential to meaningful
participation of citizens).<br>
<br>
And a word on feminist claims for action. The issue has moved on,
and few are contesting the seriousness of the claims against him. So
if the issue has moved on, is a reasonable feminist position
(putting the interests of the complainants first) not one that
should insist that he be questioned (as he has agreed to do) at the
embassy and take the matter head on? And if this is not argued and
motivated for then a reasonable feminism is being held hostage in
the name of saving feminism. But then double standards are not new
in defence of this farce that is playing out. In any event, Mark
Weisbrot reported (UK Guardian 21 Jul 2012) that Sweden sought
extradition which the former Stockholm Chief District prosecutor
Sven-Erik Alhem <span> </span><a href="http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=P9%2B7mB7zOLDxY7KVO4TsMVpips2qHQK9" target="_blank">testified</a> was “unreasonable and
unprofessional, as well as unfair and disproportionate.” <span> </span>He could simply be questioned in
the UK. One can only wonder at the intentions behind such serious
allegations not being expeditiously dealt with. <br>
<br>
And btw, no one will jump in arguing for "balance" on this list when
American Exceptionalism is touted about - but name-calling is back
in vogue. <br>
<br>
This is a bald attempt at censorship of the discussion on this list,
and should be treated with the contempt it deserves.<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div>On 2012/08/19 11:57 PM, Koven Ronald
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"><font color="black" face="arial"><font>Dear All --</font>
<div><font><br>
</font></div>
<div><font>Dear All --</font></div>
<div><font><br>
</font></div>
<div><font>I've been very
reluctant to get into this discussion about Assange, which
really does have little or nothing to do with Internet
governance (as others on the list have noted), but the
standard conspiracy theories that seem to be favored by many
on the list -- and which Assange also encourages -- really
don't seem to hold up to close scrutiny</font></div>
<div><font><br>
</font></div>
<div><font>Swedish sources who
know what they are talking about say that the Swedish
government is deeply embarassed by the whole mess, created
by an uncontrollable, overzealous prosecutor who really sees
this as an important feminist issue. Ironically, Assange is
now being defended by a former Spanish investigating
magistrate whose zeal was equally embarassing to the Spanish
government.</font></div>
<div><font><br>
</font></div>
<div><font>Quite aside from
that, from my perspective and that of many of my most
thoughtful American journalistic colleagues, it is clear
that Assange is motivated by a very strong streak of
political anti-Americanism -- that he means to embarass the
US government as much as possible. That may be a perfectly
legitimate for a political activist. But it undercuts any
claim to be a journalist, Professional journalists aren't
supposed to follow political agendas.</font></div>
<div><font><br>
</font></div>
<div><font>Best regards, Rony
Koven<br>
</font><br>
<br>
<div style="font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:10pt">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
<a href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com" target="_blank"><salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com></a><br>
To: governance <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank"><governance@lists.igcaucus.org></a>; Ginger
Paque <a href="mailto:gpaque@gmail.com" target="_blank"><gpaque@gmail.com></a><br>
Cc: Dominique Lacroix <a href="mailto:dl@panamo.eu" target="_blank"><dl@panamo.eu></a><br>
Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 7:57 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism
Wikileaks) America's vassal acts decisively and illegally<br>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;padding:0px;border:currentColor">Assange is referring to
this as a witchhunt, see:
<a href="http://www.newsday.com/news/world/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-calls-on-obama-to-end-witch-hunt-1.3913652" target="_blank">http://www.newsday.com/news/world/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-calls-on-obama-to-end-witch-hunt-1.3913652</a> </blockquote>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:29 AM,
Ginger Paque <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gpaque@gmail.com" target="_blank">gpaque@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">
Excellent post, Dominique. Gracias!
<div><br>
<br clear="all">
Ginger (Virginia) Paque<br>
<br>
<div><a href="mailto:VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu" target="_blank">VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu</a><br>
<span style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">Diplo
Foundation<br>
Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme<br>
<a href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/ig" target="_blank">www.diplomacy.edu/ig</a><span style="width:16px;padding-right:16px;min-height:16px"></span><br>
<span style="width:16px;padding-right:16px;min-height:16px"></span><span style="width:16px;padding-right:16px;min-height:16px"></span><span style="width:16px;padding-right:16px;min-height:16px"></span>
<div>
<br>
<span style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><b><i><span style="font-size:10pt"></span></i></b></span></div>
</span></div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 19 August 2012 12:25,
Dominique Lacroix <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dl@panamo.eu" target="_blank">dl@panamo.eu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>That story seems to be all about secret
at the information age!<br>
Assange got 2 love stories. In both cases,
the women invited him in her bed.<br>
The case is about what happened there. Sex
by surprise? That <b>should stay secret</b>,
as long as the women were not injured.
Actually, they never complained for that.<br>
<br>
At the contrary, Bradley Manning and
Wikileaks revealed what <b>should not be
kept secret</b>: <br>
- Civilians (journalists and children)
murders by US soldiers in Iraq. <br>
<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/06/us-iraq-usa-journalists-idUSTRE6344FW20100406" target="_blank">http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/06/us-iraq-usa-journalists-idUSTRE6344FW20100406</a><br>
- Orders given to diplomates to spy UN
leaders (DNA, passwords, credit card
numbers etc.)<br>
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-spying-un" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-spying-un</a><br>
- And so on.<br>
<br>
Nevertheless, of course I agree with
Ginger and Mawaki: crime allegations are
displaced manipulations AND we cannot just
ignore the sexual misconduct allegations.
<br>
<br>
But at this stage of the worldwide
imbroglio, it's too late for having a
neutral trial in Sweden. Could you imagine
a Swedish Court concluding: "<i>Much ado
about nothing</i>"? So public opinion
mobilization is important. We are the
witnesses.<br>
And at this hour, I would like to hear the
two women. I'm not sure that the story is
still their story...<br>
<br>
<br>
Some strange points must not be forgotten.
Just some clues for new readers of the
case:<br>
<br>
- Feminist fighters should be very happy
to see that <b>nowadays police force all
around the world hunt rapers</b> as it's
done for Assange.<br>
A famous feminist wrote about the case.
Just search for Naomi Wolf.<br>
<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/interpol-the-worlds-datin_b_793033.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/interpol-the-worlds-datin_b_793033.html</a><br>
<br>
- Assange <b>already talked </b>with
Swedish authorities. <br>
Convened because of Swedish demand, he <b>went
spontaneously</b> to the London police.
<br>
<br>
- Swedish authorities aren't clear on the
case,<b> first closed and then reopened</b>:<br>
<a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/rape-investigation-into-wikileaks-chief-reopens-2068162.html" target="_blank">http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/rape-investigation-into-wikileaks-chief-reopens-2068162.html</a><br>
<br>
- It's well established that Assange had
two love stories with fans in Stockholm
and then Enköping.<br>
The first with the famous Anna Ardin, a
feminist fighter whose blog explained <b>how
to get revenge against men</b>:<br>
<a href="http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/7569087-meet-anna-ardin-photos-anna-ardins-7-steps-to-legal-revenge" target="_blank">http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/7569087-meet-anna-ardin-photos-anna-ardins-7-steps-to-legal-revenge</a><br>
<br>
And so on. It's not the good place for
further analyzing that case. But doubt is
widely allowed.<br>
<br>
<br>
Best regards, <br>
<br>
@+, Dominique<br>
<br>
<span>-- <br>
</span>Dominique Lacroix <br>
Société européenne de l'Internet <br>
<a href="http://www.ies-france.eu" target="_blank">http://www.ies-france.eu</a>
<br>
<a value="+33663243914">+33 (0)6 63 24 39
14</a> <br>
<br>
Le 19/08/12 16:11, Mawaki Chango a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Completely agree with Ginger here...
We can't pretend to ignore the elephant in the room: at this point
there's no part of this story that can be clearly separated from
Wikileaks - if only given all the shady zones in this imbroglio. And
yes, it is unfortunate that the rape issue is now and then exploited
in ways that can undermine legitimate claims. Again a lot remains
unclear, unfortunately, due to the behavior of the Sweden's
government.
mawaki
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Ginger Paque <a href="mailto:gpaque@gmail.com" target="_blank"><gpaque@gmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>This may be IG related in the sense that WikiLeaks involves IG, and the
sexual misconduct case may (I say 'may' because I simply do not have all of
the facts) be a manipulation of the WikiLeaks case.
My firmest point is that the two issues should be separated, the sexual
misconduct case addressed, and the central case, WikiLeaks, get back in
focus.
I dislike/resent the use of women/gender/sex as a tool that undermines the
case for legitimate cases of sexual misconduct. If Assange/Assange's lawyers
would force the sexual misconduct issue (without going to Sweden--on video,
webinar, whatever), it would remove this distraction from the picture, and
force the UK to show its hand. In the meantime, we cannot just ignore the
sexual misconduct allegations. Women and sexual misconduct charges should
not be used as legal manipulations and distractions.
Ginger
Ginger (Virginia) Paque
<a href="mailto:VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu" target="_blank">VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu</a>
Diplo Foundation
Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
<a href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/ig" target="_blank">www.diplomacy.edu/ig</a>
On 19 August 2012 08:48, Adam Peake <a href="mailto:ajp@glocom.ac.jp" target="_blank"><ajp@glocom.ac.jp></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>You know that the 5 biggest financial institutions Bank of America, Visa,
mastercard, wester union and paypal decided to block donations to wikileaks
reducing it in 95%? Censorship? Have here an IG issue as requested for some
people here?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>Yes, but what have the 5 banks to do with Assange's alleged assaults?
Don't get me wrong, wikileaks is incredibly important, but I do not see
the connection between the issues in this thread and Internet governance.
If you want to change the subject, fine :-)
Pussy Riot more relevant, part of their "crime" being posting their
protest on the Internet.
Adam
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>you can still send donations using <a href="https://flattr.com/" target="_blank">https://flattr.com/</a>
Carlos Vera
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 19/08/2012, a las 6:42, Adam Peake <a href="mailto:ajp@glocom.ac.jp" target="_blank"><ajp@glocom.ac.jp></a> escribió:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre> Dominique, hi.
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Dominique Lacroix <a href="mailto:dl@panamo.eu" target="_blank"><dl@panamo.eu></a>
wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre> Rape? Charged?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre> Assange's lawyer's say accused. But the european arrest warrant the
UK believes it must enforce says he is wanted for prosecution. I'm
not a lawyer, not clue about the difference.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre> 1. Assange is not (yet) charged. The judge only wants to ask him some
questions. Telecom provide some means, indeed...
2. Rape? Perhaps some of us on this list, men AND women, are rapers at
a
Swedish sense:
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre> I very much hope not.
Indecent assault isn't that common, is it? As you note the offense
carries a maximum 4 year sentence. Not trivial.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre> "Under Swedish law, there are legal gradations of the definition of
rape.
There is the most serious kind, involving major violence.
But below that there is the concept of 'regular rape', still involving
violence but not violence of the utmost horror.
And below that there is the idea of 'unlawful coercion'. Talking
generally,
and not about the Assange case, this might involve putting emotional
pressure on someone.
The three categories involve prison sentences of 10, six and four
years
respectively.
The lawyer for the two women who have complained against Mr Assange
will not
spell out the details because he says that would give too much away to
the
accused man. But he does indicate that it is a four-year sentence that
Mr
Assange could expect, indicating that he is suspected of this third,
less
serious category."
And the great conclusion is:
"The attitude towards rape in Sweden - informed by a strong sense of
women's
rights - means that it is more likely to be reported to police.
Some 53 rape offences are reported per 100,000 people, the highest
rate in
Europe.
The figures may reflect a higher number of actual rapes committed but
it
seems more likely that tough attitudes and a broader definition of the
crime
are more significant factors."
See: <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11946652" target="_blank">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11946652</a>
Isn't it a bit unbalanced, facing whistleblowers issue?
Yes, Adam, CIA or not CIA, this case seems to me two Internet
Governance
issues.
- Lawful here, unlawful there.
- Whistleblowers right at the Digital age.
How would you deal with these questions?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre> Sorry, don't get it, what has Assange's situation to do with Internet
governance, even in its broadest sense? He didn't do anything online
or on the Internet, he is accused of assaulting two women. And those
two people seem to be being very much overlooked at the moment.
Adam
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre> @+, Dominique
Dominique Lacroix
Société européenne de l'Internet
<a href="http://www.ies-france.eu" target="_blank">http://www.ies-france.eu</a>
<a value="+33663243914">+33 (0)6 63 24 39 14</a>
Le 19/08/12 12:28, Fahd A. Batayneh a écrit :
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Ginger Paque <a href="mailto:ginger@paque.net" target="_blank"><ginger@paque.net></a>
wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre> I admire Assange. I am glad he has the courage to carry out his
WikiLeaks
work. I don't think he should be persecuted, or face politically
motivated
harassment or charge.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre> >>> I don't think being a legitimate social hero allows him to avoid
facing
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre> charges of rape if the are legitimate.
Ginger
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre> That makes us 2 Ginger. ROCK ON!
Fahd
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<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div>Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala</div>
<div>P.O. Box 17862</div>
<div>Suva</div>
<div>Fiji</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Twitter: @SalanietaT</div>
<div><a>Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro</a></div>
<div>Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851</div>
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