[governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism Wikileaks) America's vassal acts decisively and illegally
Riaz K Tayob
riaz.tayob at gmail.com
Mon Aug 20 03:53:09 EDT 2012
Perhaps if there was some "balance" then ANYONE arguing for "American
Exceptionalism" on this list should also be chastised - otherwise it is
a double standard. Those who cannot at once criticise the Assange
discussion and arguments for American Exceptionalism is taking a
POLITICAL position imho. And for me ONLY a negative inference can be
made from this regarding their values/ethical position as far as issues
that concern governance is concerned, since appeal must be made to
reason not emotions.
American Exceptionalism, which is implicit in the CHOICE of supporting
the Status Quo of current Internet Governance arrangements ON THIS LIST,
was raised and needs to be interrogated.
Actually it was Abe Lincoln who said that something to the effect that
dissent is the highest form of patriotism. So this discussion is not
anti-Americanism, and such name calling (as progressive as it might be
in some circles must be called out for what it is) but about a call to
the highest virtues of the founding fathers of America and drafters of
the American constitution (who were inspired (if I recall correctly!) by
Kantian ideas that information (access to information in modern
parlance) was essential to meaningful participation of citizens).
And a word on feminist claims for action. The issue has moved on, and
few are contesting the seriousness of the claims against him. So if the
issue has moved on, is a reasonable feminist position (putting the
interests of the complainants first) not one that should insist that he
be questioned (as he has agreed to do) at the embassy and take the
matter head on? And if this is not argued and motivated for then a
reasonable feminism is being held hostage in the name of saving
feminism. But then double standards are not new in defence of this farce
that is playing out. In any event, Mark Weisbrot reported (UK Guardian
21 Jul 2012) that Sweden sought extradition which the former Stockholm
Chief District prosecutor Sven-Erik Alhem testified
<http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=P9%2B7mB7zOLDxY7KVO4TsMVpips2qHQK9>
was “unreasonable and unprofessional, as well as unfair and
disproportionate.” He could simply be questioned in the UK. One can only
wonder at the intentions behind such serious allegations not being
expeditiously dealt with.
And btw, no one will jump in arguing for "balance" on this list when
American Exceptionalism is touted about - but name-calling is back in
vogue.
This is a bald attempt at censorship of the discussion on this list, and
should be treated with the contempt it deserves.
On 2012/08/19 11:57 PM, Koven Ronald wrote:
> Dear All --
>
> Dear All --
>
> I've been very reluctant to get into this discussion about Assange,
> which really does have little or nothing to do with Internet
> governance (as others on the list have noted), but the standard
> conspiracy theories that seem to be favored by many on the list -- and
> which Assange also encourages -- really don't seem to hold up to close
> scrutiny
>
> Swedish sources who know what they are talking about say that the
> Swedish government is deeply embarassed by the whole mess, created by
> an uncontrollable, overzealous prosecutor who really sees this as an
> important feminist issue. Ironically, Assange is now being defended by
> a former Spanish investigating magistrate whose zeal was equally
> embarassing to the Spanish government.
>
> Quite aside from that, from my perspective and that of many of my most
> thoughtful American journalistic colleagues, it is clear that Assange
> is motivated by a very strong streak of political anti-Americanism --
> that he means to embarass the US government as much as possible. That
> may be a perfectly legitimate for a political activist. But it
> undercuts any claim to be a journalist, Professional journalists
> aren't supposed to follow political agendas.
>
> Best regards, Rony Koven
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
> To: governance <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Ginger Paque
> <gpaque at gmail.com>
> Cc: Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu>
> Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 7:57 pm
> Subject: Re: [governance] Tangential (On Exceptionalism Wikileaks)
> America's vassal acts decisively and illegally
>
> Assange is referring to this as a witchhunt, see:
> http://www.newsday.com/news/world/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-calls-on-obama-to-end-witch-hunt-1.3913652
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:29 AM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com
> <mailto:gpaque at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Excellent post, Dominique. Gracias!
>
>
> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>
> VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu <mailto:VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu>
> Diplo Foundation
> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
> www.diplomacy.edu/ig <http://www.diplomacy.edu/ig>
>
> *//*
>
>
>
> On 19 August 2012 12:25, Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu
> <mailto:dl at panamo.eu>> wrote:
>
> That story seems to be all about secret at the information age!
> Assange got 2 love stories. In both cases, the women invited
> him in her bed.
> The case is about what happened there. Sex by surprise? That
> *should stay secret*, as long as the women were not injured.
> Actually, they never complained for that.
>
> At the contrary, Bradley Manning and Wikileaks revealed what
> *should not be kept secret*:
> - Civilians (journalists and children) murders by US soldiers
> in Iraq.
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/06/us-iraq-usa-journalists-idUSTRE6344FW20100406
> - Orders given to diplomates to spy UN leaders (DNA,
> passwords, credit card numbers etc.)
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-spying-un
> - And so on.
>
> Nevertheless, of course I agree with Ginger and Mawaki: crime
> allegations are displaced manipulations AND we cannot just
> ignore the sexual misconduct allegations.
>
> But at this stage of the worldwide imbroglio, it's too late
> for having a neutral trial in Sweden. Could you imagine a
> Swedish Court concluding: "/Much ado about nothing/"? So
> public opinion mobilization is important. We are the witnesses.
> And at this hour, I would like to hear the two women. I'm not
> sure that the story is still their story...
>
>
> Some strange points must not be forgotten. Just some clues for
> new readers of the case:
>
> - Feminist fighters should be very happy to see that *nowadays
> police force all around the world hunt rapers* as it's done
> for Assange.
> A famous feminist wrote about the case. Just search for Naomi
> Wolf.
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/interpol-the-worlds-datin_b_793033.html
>
> - Assange *already talked *with Swedish authorities.
> Convened because of Swedish demand, he *went spontaneously* to
> the London police.
>
> - Swedish authorities aren't clear on the case,*first closed
> and then reopened*:
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/rape-investigation-into-wikileaks-chief-reopens-2068162.html
>
> - It's well established that Assange had two love stories with
> fans in Stockholm and then Enköping.
> The first with the famous Anna Ardin, a feminist fighter whose
> blog explained *how to get revenge against men*:
> http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/7569087-meet-anna-ardin-photos-anna-ardins-7-steps-to-legal-revenge
>
> And so on. It's not the good place for further analyzing that
> case. But doubt is widely allowed.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> @+, Dominique
>
> --
> Dominique Lacroix
> Société européenne de l'Internet
> http://www.ies-france.eu
> +33 (0)6 63 24 39 14
>
> Le 19/08/12 16:11, Mawaki Chango a écrit :
>> Completely agree with Ginger here...
>> We can't pretend to ignore the elephant in the room: at this point
>> there's no part of this story that can be clearly separated from
>> Wikileaks - if only given all the shady zones in this imbroglio. And
>> yes, it is unfortunate that the rape issue is now and then exploited
>> in ways that can undermine legitimate claims. Again a lot remains
>> unclear, unfortunately, due to the behavior of the Sweden's
>> government.
>>
>> mawaki
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Ginger Paque<gpaque at gmail.com> <mailto:gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> This may be IG related in the sense that WikiLeaks involves IG, and the
>>> sexual misconduct case may (I say 'may' because I simply do not have all of
>>> the facts) be a manipulation of the WikiLeaks case.
>>>
>>> My firmest point is that the two issues should be separated, the sexual
>>> misconduct case addressed, and the central case, WikiLeaks, get back in
>>> focus.
>>>
>>> I dislike/resent the use of women/gender/sex as a tool that undermines the
>>> case for legitimate cases of sexual misconduct. If Assange/Assange's lawyers
>>> would force the sexual misconduct issue (without going to Sweden--on video,
>>> webinar, whatever), it would remove this distraction from the picture, and
>>> force the UK to show its hand. In the meantime, we cannot just ignore the
>>> sexual misconduct allegations. Women and sexual misconduct charges should
>>> not be used as legal manipulations and distractions.
>>> Ginger
>>>
>>>
>>> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>>>
>>> VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu <mailto:VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu>
>>> Diplo Foundation
>>> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
>>> www.diplomacy.edu/ig <http://www.diplomacy.edu/ig>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 August 2012 08:48, Adam Peake<ajp at glocom.ac.jp> <mailto:ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>>>>> You know that the 5 biggest financial institutions Bank of America, Visa,
>>>>> mastercard, wester union and paypal decided to block donations to wikileaks
>>>>> reducing it in 95%? Censorship? Have here an IG issue as requested for some
>>>>> people here?
>>>> Yes, but what have the 5 banks to do with Assange's alleged assaults?
>>>>
>>>> Don't get me wrong, wikileaks is incredibly important, but I do not see
>>>> the connection between the issues in this thread and Internet governance.
>>>> If you want to change the subject, fine :-)
>>>>
>>>> Pussy Riot more relevant, part of their "crime" being posting their
>>>> protest on the Internet.
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> you can still send donations usinghttps://flattr.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> Carlos Vera
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> El 19/08/2012, a las 6:42, Adam Peake<ajp at glocom.ac.jp> <mailto:ajp at glocom.ac.jp> escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dominique, hi.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Dominique Lacroix<dl at panamo.eu> <mailto:dl at panamo.eu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Rape? Charged?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Assange's lawyer's say accused. But the european arrest warrant the
>>>>>> UK believes it must enforce says he is wanted for prosecution. I'm
>>>>>> not a lawyer, not clue about the difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Assange is not (yet) charged. The judge only wants to ask him some
>>>>>>> questions. Telecom provide some means, indeed...
>>>>>>> 2. Rape? Perhaps some of us on this list, men AND women, are rapers at
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> Swedish sense:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I very much hope not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indecent assault isn't that common, is it? As you note the offense
>>>>>> carries a maximum 4 year sentence. Not trivial.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Under Swedish law, there are legal gradations of the definition of
>>>>>>> rape.
>>>>>>> There is the most serious kind, involving major violence.
>>>>>>> But below that there is the concept of 'regular rape', still involving
>>>>>>> violence but not violence of the utmost horror.
>>>>>>> And below that there is the idea of 'unlawful coercion'. Talking
>>>>>>> generally,
>>>>>>> and not about the Assange case, this might involve putting emotional
>>>>>>> pressure on someone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The three categories involve prison sentences of 10, six and four
>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>> respectively.
>>>>>>> The lawyer for the two women who have complained against Mr Assange
>>>>>>> will not
>>>>>>> spell out the details because he says that would give too much away to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> accused man. But he does indicate that it is a four-year sentence that
>>>>>>> Mr
>>>>>>> Assange could expect, indicating that he is suspected of this third,
>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>> serious category."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the great conclusion is:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The attitude towards rape in Sweden - informed by a strong sense of
>>>>>>> women's
>>>>>>> rights - means that it is more likely to be reported to police.
>>>>>>> Some 53 rape offences are reported per 100,000 people, the highest
>>>>>>> rate in
>>>>>>> Europe.
>>>>>>> The figures may reflect a higher number of actual rapes committed but
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> seems more likely that tough attitudes and a broader definition of the
>>>>>>> crime
>>>>>>> are more significant factors."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11946652
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Isn't it a bit unbalanced, facing whistleblowers issue?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, Adam, CIA or not CIA, this case seems to me two Internet
>>>>>>> Governance
>>>>>>> issues.
>>>>>>> - Lawful here, unlawful there.
>>>>>>> - Whistleblowers right at the Digital age.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How would you deal with these questions?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, don't get it, what has Assange's situation to do with Internet
>>>>>> governance, even in its broadest sense? He didn't do anything online
>>>>>> or on the Internet, he is accused of assaulting two women. And those
>>>>>> two people seem to be being very much overlooked at the moment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> @+, Dominique
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dominique Lacroix
>>>>>>> Société européenne de l'Internet
>>>>>>> http://www.ies-france.eu
>>>>>>> +33 (0)6 63 24 39 14
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Le 19/08/12 12:28, Fahd A. Batayneh a écrit :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Ginger Paque<ginger at paque.net> <mailto:ginger at paque.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I admire Assange. I am glad he has the courage to carry out his
>>>>>>>> WikiLeaks
>>>>>>>> work. I don't think he should be persecuted, or face politically
>>>>>>>> motivated
>>>>>>>> harassment or charge.
>>>>> >>> I don't think being a legitimate social hero allows him to avoid
>>>>> facing
>>>>>>>> charges of rape if the are legitimate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ginger
>>>>>>> That makes us 2 Ginger. ROCK ON!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fahd
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
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> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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