[governance] FW: TP: city government exercising policy on Google Applications / consumer rights / Consumer Protection Act / trial period

Tue Jul 12 19:22:06 EDT 2011

Just a thought:

If there is no space at the IGF to discuss this, we could have a coffee
discussion/debate around the table (informal) and live and in person in
Nairobi or not.

Sala

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu> wrote:

> Wasn't aware I put words in your mouth, apologies if I did...open wide & I
> will take them right out [image: ;-)]
>
> Milton Mueller
> Professor, Syracuse University School of Information Studies
>
>
> -----Original message-----
>
> *From: *michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>*
> To: *"governance at lists.cpsr.org" <governance at lists.cpsr.org>*
> Sent: *Tue, Jul 12, 2011 17:37:12 GMT+00:00*
> Subject: *RE: [governance] FW: TP: city government exercising policy on
> Google Applications / consumer rights / Consumer Protection Act / trial
> period
>
>  Since I started this most interesting discussion by forwarding the
> original
> message concerning the actions by the Taipei municipality I reserve the
> right to speak for myself (tks for your kindness in placing words in my
> mouth MM...
>
> I forwarded the original message not because I supported that Municipality,
> I don't know enough about the circumstances there to offer a useful opinion
> and certainly subjecting corporations or anyone to local ordinances
> etc.etc.
> is broadly an absurdity except for those directly resident or with a
> significant presence locally (vagueness in definition here deliberate);
> rather I sent it along as an example of the kind of dilemmas that the
>
> Internet presents in the context of governance regimes--local, national,
> and
> global.
>
> What should be clear to all sides of this discussion is that some sort of
> governance (including taxation) regime that responds to the unique
> charactetistics of the Internet is necessary and the success of the
> Internet
> makes that even more significant and the urgency even greater.
>
> If we start from there and avoid misattributions  of words/opinions etc. we
> might even make a useful contribution to the overall discussion on this
> which regrettably has been very slow in developing, mixed up with national
> short term self-interests and corporate reluctance to have anyone have an
> overview let alone a position of authority where their super-growth and
> super-profits might come under direct scrutiny.
>
> MG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: governance at lists.cpsr.org [mailto:governance at lists.cpsr.org<governance at lists.cpsr.org>]
> On Behalf
> Of Milton L Mueller
> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 9:46 AM
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; 'Paul Lehto'; Daniel Kalchev
> Subject: RE: [governance] FW: TP: city government exercising policy on
> Google Applications / consumer rights / Consumer Protection Act / trial
> period
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: governance at lists.cpsr.org [mailto:governance at lists.cpsr.org<governance at lists.cpsr.org>]
> On
> >
> > The internet originated in governmental efforts
>
> Internet protocol (TCP/IP) was developed with governmental research
> funding,
> not "the Internet." "The Internet" infrastructure was developed, as Daniel
> correctly notes, by private network operators building things and
> interconnecting with it. And the reason it succeeded was because it was an
> open protocol, not owned. I.e., it was the ABSENCE of control, not its
>
> presence, that made it successful.
>
> > and could not exist
> > without the robust legal infrastructure and some physical
> > infrastructure provided by governments.
>
> Bollocks. This whole line of argument is just silly. Some local government
>
> provides a road for a truck to ride on and that means it has an unqualified
> right to regulate anything and everything that happens in global
> communications? What kind of an argument is this?
>
> Sure, insofar as governments secure basic property rights and contractual
> rights and administer justice, a  "legal infrastructure" has been helpful.
> But just as often, govts overstep those bounds and try to obstruct,
> parasitize, over-regulate or overtax. We need to debate the merits of a
> specific intervention; this argument makes no sense in the abstract.
>
> So please, stay on point and tell me why a specific locality in Taiwan
> should be able to tax and assert regulatory power over an app provider in
> California;, tell me what benefit accrues and how such taxation without
> representation is consistent with democratic principles. And tell me - as
> Parminder, Lee, Michael and others keep ducking the issue - how it is
> practically feasible to have 100,000 different jurisdictions come bearing
> down on any and every virtual service provider?  If you and the others
> continue to remain silent on the obvious practical issue associated with
> that, I won't take you seriously for another second.
>
> > Thus, there's no getting around the necessity for government
> > involvement at a material level.  The real issue is to what extent, if
> > any, government ought to abdicate or forego its traditional roles in
> > the context of the internet.
>
> No, the real issue is that Internet _breaks_ the governments' traditional
> roles in communication and information, and we need to figure out how we
> can
> revise governmental functions to insert control where needed without
> killing
> the freedom and openness that makes the internet valuable. And that was the
> debate we were trying to have, until you detoured it into a general,
> philosophical and mostly useless debate on government per se.
>
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-- 
Sala

"Stillness in the midst of the noise".
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