Just a thought:<div><br></div><div>If there is no space at the IGF to discuss this, we could have a coffee discussion/debate around the table (informal) and live and in person in Nairobi or not.</div><div><br></div><div>Sala<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Milton L Mueller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu">mueller@syr.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div><div style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:16px">Wasn't aware I put words in your mouth, apologies if I did...open wide & I will take them right out <img src="cid:BlurSMCIdWinking" alt=";-)"><br><br><font color="#cc0000">Milton Mueller<br>
</font><font color="#cc0000">Professor, Syracuse University School of Information Studies </font></div><br><br>-----Original message-----<br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px">
<div class="im"><div style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b>From: </b>michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><b><br>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>><b><br>
Sent: </b>Tue, Jul 12, 2011 17:37:12 GMT+00:00<b><br>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] FW: TP: city government exercising policy on Google Applications / consumer rights / Consumer Protection Act / trial period<br><br></div></div>
<div>
<div>
<font size="2"><div><div class="im">Since I started this most interesting discussion by forwarding the original<br>
message concerning the actions by the Taipei municipality I reserve the<br>
right to speak for myself (tks for your kindness in placing words in my<br>
mouth MM...<br>
<br>
I forwarded the original message not because I supported that Municipality,<br>
I don't know enough about the circumstances there to offer a useful opinion<br>
and certainly subjecting corporations or anyone to local ordinances etc.etc.<br>
is broadly an absurdity except for those directly resident or with a<br>
significant presence locally (vagueness in definition here deliberate);<br></div>
rather I sent it along as an example of the kind of dilemmas that the<div class="im"><br>
Internet presents in the context of governance regimes--local, national, and<br>
global.<br>
<br></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
What should be clear to all sides of this discussion is that some sort of<br>
governance (including taxation) regime that responds to the unique<br>
charactetistics of the Internet is necessary and the success of the Internet<br>
makes that even more significant and the urgency even greater. <br>
<br>
If we start from there and avoid misattributions of words/opinions etc. we<br>
might even make a useful contribution to the overall discussion on this<br>
which regrettably has been very slow in developing, mixed up with national<br>
short term self-interests and corporate reluctance to have anyone have an<br>
overview let alone a position of authority where their super-growth and<br>
super-profits might come under direct scrutiny.<br>
<br>
MG<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>] On Behalf<br>
Of Milton L Mueller<br>
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 9:46 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>; 'Paul Lehto'; Daniel Kalchev<br>
Subject: RE: [governance] FW: TP: city government exercising policy on<br>
Google Applications / consumer rights / Consumer Protection Act / trial<br>
period<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>] On<br>
> <br>
> The internet originated in governmental efforts<br>
<br>
Internet protocol (TCP/IP) was developed with governmental research funding,<br>
not "the Internet." "The Internet" infrastructure was developed, as Daniel<br>
correctly notes, by private network operators building things and<br>
interconnecting with it. And the reason it succeeded was because it was an<br></div></div>
open protocol, not owned. I.e., it was the ABSENCE of control, not its<div class="im"><br>
presence, that made it successful.<br>
<br></div><div class="im">
> and could not exist<br>
> without the robust legal infrastructure and some physical <br>
> infrastructure provided by governments.<br>
<br></div>
Bollocks. This whole line of argument is just silly. Some local government<div class="im"><br>
provides a road for a truck to ride on and that means it has an unqualified<br>
right to regulate anything and everything that happens in global<br>
communications? What kind of an argument is this? <br>
<br></div><div class="im">
Sure, insofar as governments secure basic property rights and contractual<br>
rights and administer justice, a "legal infrastructure" has been helpful.<br>
But just as often, govts overstep those bounds and try to obstruct,<br>
parasitize, over-regulate or overtax. We need to debate the merits of a<br>
specific intervention; this argument makes no sense in the abstract. <br>
<br></div><div class="im">
So please, stay on point and tell me why a specific locality in Taiwan<br>
should be able to tax and assert regulatory power over an app provider in<br>
California;, tell me what benefit accrues and how such taxation without<br>
representation is consistent with democratic principles. And tell me - as<br>
Parminder, Lee, Michael and others keep ducking the issue - how it is<br>
practically feasible to have 100,000 different jurisdictions come bearing<br>
down on any and every virtual service provider? If you and the others<br>
continue to remain silent on the obvious practical issue associated with<br>
that, I won't take you seriously for another second. <br>
<br>
> Thus, there's no getting around the necessity for government <br>
> involvement at a material level. The real issue is to what extent, if <br>
> any, government ought to abdicate or forego its traditional roles in <br>
> the context of the internet.<br>
<br>
No, the real issue is that Internet _breaks_ the governments' traditional<br>
roles in communication and information, and we need to figure out how we can<br>
revise governmental functions to insert control where needed without killing<br>
the freedom and openness that makes the internet valuable. And that was the<br>
debate we were trying to have, until you detoured it into a general,<br>
philosophical and mostly useless debate on government per se. <br>
<br>
____________________________________________________________<br></div><div class="im">
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>
<a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br>
To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
<a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
<br>
For all other list information and functions, see:<br>
<a href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</a><br>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br>
<a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
<br>
Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
<br>
<br>
____________________________________________________________<br>
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>
<a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br>
To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
<a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
<br>
For all other list information and functions, see:<br>
<a href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</a><br>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br>
<a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
<br>
Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
<br>
</div></div></font>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div>
<br>____________________________________________________________<br>
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>
<a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br>
To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
<a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
<br>
For all other list information and functions, see:<br>
<a href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</a><br>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br>
<a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
<br>
Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div>Sala</div><div> </div><div>"Stillness in the midst of the noise".</div><br>
</div>