[governance] Net neutrality
Lee W McKnight
lmcknigh at syr.edu
Fri Aug 13 12:18:19 EDT 2010
I don't often cross-post, but this email below from Richard Shockey on Farber's list may be a helpful small step towards clarifying what different folks are saying - and aligning that with the tech reality of Internet operations.
Bottom line for me remains we are early in the game of defining public policy for all-IP nets.
For US the Google-Verizon thing is just a clever shot at setting the agenda for when those discussions amp up, in a year or 2. Cuz right now we're just talking and nothing imminent is happening.
Because...well see below.
Lee
________________________________________
From: David Farber [dave at farber.net]
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 4:57 AM
To: ip
Subject: [IP] Re: VZ Google Announcementworth reading --
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Waz, Joe" <Joe_Waz at comcast.com<mailto:Joe_Waz at comcast.com>>
Date: August 12, 2010 9:25:36 PM EDT
To: <George.Ou at digitalsociety.org<mailto:George.Ou at digitalsociety.org>>, <dave at farber.net<mailto:dave at farber.net>>, <richard at shockey.us<mailto:richard at shockey.us>>
Subject: Re: [IP] VZ Google Announcementworth reading --
Richard's right - today, most cable voice service is IP-based - that's how Comcast entered the voice business
________________________________
From: George Ou <George.Ou at digitalsociety.org<mailto:George.Ou at digitalsociety.org>>
To: dave at farber.net<mailto:dave at farber.net> <dave at farber.net<mailto:dave at farber.net>>; richard at shockey.us<mailto:richard at shockey.us> <richard at shockey.us<mailto:richard at shockey.us>>; Waz, Joe
Sent: Thu Aug 12 20:42:52 2010
Subject: RE: [IP] VZ Google Announcementworth reading --
Richard,
This was a superbly stated comment and I enjoyed reading it.
I just have one minor issue which is your comment that cable telephony runs on IP. I could be wrong, but I don’t think cable telephony uses IP. Joe?
George
From: David Farber [mailto:dave at farber.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:35 PM
To: ip
Subject: [IP] VZ Google Announcementworth reading --
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Richard Shockey" <richard at shockey.us<mailto:richard at shockey.us>>
Date: August 11, 2010 5:48:31 PM EDT
To: <dave at farber.net<mailto:dave at farber.net>>
Subject: RE: [IP] re VZ Google Announcement
For IP please ..
<sigh> With all due respect to Link Hoewing and Richard Whitt of Google, who probably crafted this statement, it has clearly created more confusion and FUD that before it was issued. Its regrettable. What is needed here is some clarity on what the various actors want to achieve and how the public interest is to be served. That said I’m personally much more sympathetic to the general principal of packet discrimination in IP networks that one might imagine.
Part of the problem in the discussion of Net Neutrality is the lack of any real Internet Engineering input. This is a frustration that I know our list nanny and Gerry Faulhaber have felt for some time ..they are not alone.
This is also a problem in the FCC and certainly among the DuPont Circle “public interest” groups such as FP and PK. No one ask guys like me what people are really trying to do with the Internet. As someone who has spent the last 15 years as a working participant in the Internet Engineering Task Force ( which defines the protocols that ARE the Internet ) and a chair of several of its working groups let me point out a number of salient facts.
First .. packet discrimination or application specific packet discrimination of IP networks is a integral part of the Internet Protocol suite and has been since nearly its inception. First was Differentiated Services or difserv RFC 2474 RFC 2475 etal or wikipedia for details. Recently the IETF and our cousins at the ITU has spent huge amounts of brain power defining the architecture of MPLS or Multi Protocol Label Switching for IP which is rapidly ( along with Ethernet) becoming the core of global carrier networks. Look it up. This is a good thing. IP has won now us poor engineering grunts have to make it work.
Yes all IP datagrams are created equal but some packets MUST be made more equal than others. Brett Glass noted this earlier but the obvious application is VoIP. In case you had not heard classic Class 5 analog POTS is dying and I’m deeply sympathetic to those operators with Nortel DMS 250 and 500 switches who are trying to figure out what to do in a era of constrained operator CAPEX. Oh yes ..engineers at VZ and T and others live in mortal fear of the EOL letter ( End of Life) for the AL 5ESS switches as well. FCC’s own stats indicate that 18 percent of PSTN traffic is probably now running on IP networks, but that was based on 2008 data. IMHO its probably more than 35% now and once T and VZ roll out their LTE/ IMS networks that crosses the 50% mark. Its nearly 100% among Cable Operators. Yes its SIP .. RFC 3761. The difference is that this is not Vonage or Skype it’s a managed IP service.
With respect, Chairman Seidenberg needs a better PR advisor. His comment on that he wants to offer 3D Metropolitan opera services was nearly as ridiculous as the EBIDA envy expressed by Ed (my pipes) Whitacre about Google, which started this whole mess in the first place. I would have had much more respect for him if he actually said, “Look lots of folks want to pay us good money to differentiate their IP traffic .. like Telepresence, public safety, medical monitoring. We need the technical capability as well as the regulatory clarity to offer those services” “ Oh BTW I need to defend my 6% dividend thank you very much.” That I would understand.
Inherent in the Google VZ statement is a definition of consumer broadband Internet access that says that non discrimination in landline environments means that consumer broadband internet access is a “best efforts service” and no more. Well OK say so. Frankly that is not the reality of the network as it exists, nor do I believe that is what consumers or businesses actually want. I want my voice and point to point video transmissions to be “managed”. I’m happy to pay for that. Point to Point video is, perhaps the last real application the carriers can monetize if they would wake up to the opportunity. Just look at what Apple has done and will do with FaceTime. Wireless, I understand is different. That is the key here. But defining technically or in policy what is the “consumer broadband internet access service” is about as easy as defining what “reasonable network management” or a “telecommunications vs information service”. I don’t envy them but I do wish them well.
That said .. I am a fan of the only reasonable way to guarantee universal broadband access to all Americans ..that is TURN OFF ANALOG POTS. That does not say kill off the PSTN .. that is a appropriate regulatory construct especially with the core voice service using E.164 addressing.
It’s just there is one network now and its IP. We had a successful transition with analog to digital television there is no reason we could not do this for IP at the access side. IP now IP everywhere. Running parallel networks, analog POTS/SS7 and IP access is not a good thing from the network architecture and OPEX side.
The PSTN as a mandated service using E.164 numbers that MUST remain, but that is a “managed service” with clear packet discrimination.
IMHO the real all IP network from a CAPEX/ OPEX perspective it would actually make financial sense for our Copperhead friends ( I no longer like calling them Bellheads) over the long term.
ATT has argued that case at the FCC.
http://gigaom.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/da-09-2517a11.pdf
http://blog.quintarelli.it/files/att.pdf
From: Dave Farber [mailto:dave at farber.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 2:26 PM
To: ip
Subject: [IP] re VZ Google Announcement
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Hoewing, C. L." <c.l.hoewing at verizon.com<mailto:c.l.hoewing at verizon.com>>
Date: August 10, 2010 4:50:12 AM PDT
To: dave at farber.net<mailto:dave at farber.net>
Subject: RE: [IP] re VZ Google Announcement
Dave:
This is wrong. First, a broadband provider has to offer an broadband Internet access service to consumers in order to offer additional services in the first place. These services had to comply with the nondiscrimination principles. This also helps ensure that such open Internet connections will remain available. Second, the additional services cannot be offered or promoted as if they are broadband Internet access services. Third, if anything we might do in offering or promoting any additional services appears to the FCC to be undermining broadband Internet access services, it can issue an emergency report to Congress detailing its concerns and laying out recommendations. I think all of this provides a balance that allows for innovation to take place while promoting broadband Internet access services at the same time. After all, if the FCC issued such an emergency report, it would certainly create a lot of pressure very quickly on a provider to change its practices.
LINK
Link Hoewing
Vice President
Internet and Technology Policy
Verizon
1300 I Street, NW
Washington, DC 20005
202-515-2420
________________________________
From: Dave Farber [mailto:dave at farber.net]
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 9:05 PM
To: ip
Subject: [IP] re VZ Google Announcement
Begin forwarded message:
From: Jason Calacanis <jason at calacanis.com<mailto:jason at calacanis.com>>
Date: August 9, 2010 1:40:04 PM PDT
To: dave at farber.net<mailto:dave at farber.net>
Cc: ip <ip at v2.listbox.com<mailto:ip at v2.listbox.com>>
Subject: Re: [IP] VZ Google Announcement
Dave,
Please tell me if I'm reading Section 5 correctly: it states, basically, that net neutrality applies to services that have been introduced to customers already, but new services can break net neutrality rules?
So, since YouTube already exists, it can't be run across a faster Verizon Network that Google pays for the rights to access? What if Google launches YouTube Pro--a completely new service with new offerings. Is that allowed?
What if they make a new service called "Gideo" (a new Google Video), that is available in HD only in FIOS homes. Gideo could pay for priority over Verizon's new network called FIOS2?
Is this why Verizon stopped investing in Fios? To create a new standard outside the NN world?
hmmm..... confused.
http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2010/08/joint-policy-proposal-for-open-internet.html
Fifth, we want the broadband infrastructure to be a platform for innovation. Therefore, our proposal would allow broadband providers to offer additional, differentiated online services, in addition to the Internet access and video services (such as Verizon's FIOS TV) offered today. This means that broadband providers can work with other players to develop new services. It is too soon to predict how these new services will develop, but examples might include health care monitoring, the smart grid, advanced educational services, or new entertainment and gaming options. Our proposal also includes safeguards to ensure that such online services must be distinguishable from traditional broadband Internet access services and are not designed to circumvent the rules. The FCC would also monitor the development of these services to make sure they don’t interfere with the continued development of Internet access services.
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Dave Farber <dave at farber.net<mailto:dave at farber.net>> wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Hoewing, C. L." <c.l.hoewing at verizon.com<mailto:c.l.hoewing at verizon.com>>
Date: August 9, 2010 11:31:59 AM PDT
To: David Farber <dave at farber.net<mailto:dave at farber.net>>
Subject: FW: URGENT - VZ Google Announcement
Dave:
For IP.
LINK
http://policyblog.verizon.com/BlogPost/742/JointPolicyProposalforanOpenInternet.aspx
Link Hoewing
Vice President
Internet and Technology Policy
Verizon
1300 I Street, NW
Washington, DC 20005
202-515-2420
Archives<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now> [https://www.listbox.com/images/feed-icon-10x10.jpg] <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/> | Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&> Your Subscription | Unsubscribe Now<https://www.listbox.com/unsubscribe/?&>
[https://www.listbox.com/images/listbox-logo-small.png]<http://www.listbox.com>
--
---------------------
Jason McCabe Calacanis
CEO, http://www.Mahalo.com
Office: 310-593-6134 / Mobile: 310-456-4900
Blog: http://www.calacanis.com
Mailing list: http://bit.ly/jasonslist
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jason
AOL IM/Skype: jasoncalacanis
Archives<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now> [https://www.listbox.com/images/feed-icon-10x10.jpg] <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/> | Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&> Your Subscription | Unsubscribe Now<https://www.listbox.com/unsubscribe/?&>
[https://www.listbox.com/images/listbox-logo-small.png]<http://www.listbox.com>
Archives<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now> [https://www.listbox.com/images/feed-icon-10x10.jpg] <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/> | Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&> Your Subscription | Unsubscribe Now<https://www.listbox.com/unsubscribe/?&>
[https://www.listbox.com/images/listbox-logo-small.png]<http://www.listbox.com>
Archives<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now> [https://www.listbox.com/images/feed-icon-10x10.jpg] <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/> | Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&> Your Subscription | Unsubscribe Now<https://www.listbox.com/unsubscribe/?&>
[https://www.listbox.com/images/listbox-logo-small.png]<http://www.listbox.com>
Archives<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now> [https://www.listbox.com/images/feed-icon-10x10.jpg] <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/> | Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8923115&id_secret=8923115-86ed04cc> Your Subscription | Unsubscribe Now<https://www.listbox.com/unsubscribe/?member_id=8923115&id_secret=8923115-e899f1f0> [https://www.listbox.com/images/listbox-logo-small.png] <http://www.listbox.com>
________________________________________
From: Michael Gurstein [gurstein at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 12:07 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; 'Anriette Esterhuysen'; 'parminder'
Subject: RE: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles
I completely agree with Anriette as far as she goes, the problem is that "discussion and processes" in many cases blur (or are anticipated as blurring) into policy making and that's where the issues arise. What should be the processes (and structures) of policy making and who should be involved in the actual making of the policy as opposed to discussion about/consultation concerning the policy?
In the absence of effective (democratically anchored) policy making structures there is a tendency to allow the process leading up to the policy to in some sense become the policy making itself.
Also, by focusing our (civil society's) attention and resources only on the (multi-stakeholder) processes insufficient attention is paid/resources given to building/reinforcing the broadly based democratic policy making structures.
The IGF (including the regional IGF's) are useful certainly but dare I say that they still suffer rather severely from a "democratic deficit".
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Anriette Esterhuysen [mailto:anriette at apc.org]
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:28 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; parminder
Cc: SAMUELS,Carlton A
Subject: Re: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles
Dear Parminder and all
I agree with Parminder on network neutrality being a very pressing issue in developing countries.. particularly in the mobile universe.
My views on stakeholders participation are probably a bit different.
Yesterday I participated in a conference called Tech4Africa. http://www.tech4africa.com/
It was very interesting, very dynamic. Mobile, mobile broadband, mobile content featured in several sessions. Net neutrality did not get nearly enough attention.
Here is my reading on how different stakeholder groups in Africa see net neutrality in Africa. These are just perceptions and it would be great if other Africans can share their perceptions:
Governments:
- either unaware or already in the pockets of the mobile operators
- concerned with content and services and working with providers to get these to end-users without any consideration of the implications for competition/net neutrality etc.
Regulators:
- some beginning to think about the issue, not sure how to deal with it, often of the view that it is not yet a priority and that they should focus on reducing cost of access
- some in the pocket of operators
- some just not really aware of how to deal with this issue in mobile and of the view that it only applies to fixed line or internet infrastructure
Businesses - large mobile:
- large mobile operators area seriously investing in content and applications and in mobile broadband
- partnering with development agencies and business to provide services that are making them a fortune, and benefiting users
- in fact... it would not surprise me if Safaricom wins a Nobel Peace Prize for Mpesa :)
Business - small and medium in the ICT sector:
- many would like to get into content
- some fear for their survival if they cannot get into mobile and content, particularly digital broadcasting, e.g. local producers of local content, local language content, and also public interest content
- the lack of net neutrality in the mobile space is of HUGE concern to them once they understand the issues
- other smaller business and also community and not-for-profit initiatives are forced to work through the large operators when they develop content for mobile... very anti-competitive.. kind of replicates what happened with government owned telco monopolies forcing everyone to use their infractructure for internet... which is still happening in some places
Business can be broken into many more stakeholder and interest groups.. these are just examples.
NGO/Not-for-profit/social and community enterprises:
- exploring content and service and applications... currently, as i said above, they depend on the 'generosity and goodwill' of mobile operators
- the difference here is that at least those who are in the content business know that lack of net neutrality is bad... the NGOs are not aware of these issues
Sorry.. this is long.. but I am trying to say that real life is not as simple as you make it out to be. Interests and where groups stand on policy and regulation on for example net neutrality does not just depend on whether the 'stakeholder' is a business or a government. It is based on specific configurations of power and knowledge and opportunity at any given time.
I agree with you that in the making of policy all stakeholders should not have equal power. It depends on the policy - and also on the specific public interest at stake. But assuming that government and civil society are the sole protectors of the public interest does not always hold true in my experience, not in Africa. Often in the ICT sector it is the small to medium business players whose interests come closest to that of the general public.
In most African countries there are still very few civil society organisations active in the ICT or access to knowledge policy debates.
Government has a specific role in making sure that policy is made openly and inclusively, and in the public interest. Government needs to be held accountable for the policy implementation, and what happens as a result of this implication. They need to be forced to fix/change policies that do not service the public interest. But hearing what all the different stakeholders have to say is always useful in my opinion. Policy making processes that listens and asks questions in public where community, business, civil society can all say their piece, results in better policy and stronger partnership in implementation.
Consider also that in most developing countries government has very little capacity... even the good ones.
One of the many reasons why I feel that IGF has been such an important experiment is that it is a forum for policy dialogue, not for policy making.
Both policy making and policy dialogue works better with input from lots of different stakeholders. Business and civil society and those people that are usually not included enough, communities, end-users, workers, consumers.
How the multi-stakeholder participation is facilitated and configured needs to be different in dialogue spaces and policy-making processes. Mechanisms to avoid the abuse of power are essential in policy-making.
But I don't think we should ever undervalue the value of multi-stakeholder participation in our sector... including in policy discussion and processes.
Anriette
> This is the reason that network neutrality is really even more a
> developing country issue, a big and central part of what would be
> development agenda.)
>
> Coming back to the principal issue I wanted to raise. The principal
> lesson for this deal is for all of us to reconsider the foggy business
> of multistakeholderism as a new policy-making form, and clearly
> understand and accept the long established distinctions between pulbic
> interest and private interest.
>
> Companies represent private interests. That is what they are supposed
> to do, and they will always end up doing so. In fact there is nothing
> wrong for them to do it, as long as they are within legal boundaries.
> That is the nature of the private sector, definitionally.
>
> On the other hand, civil society and governments are public interest
> players. Both sectors at diferent times can have different problems
> about their legitimacy etc, and this has to be engaged with. However
> the essential difference between private interest players (businesses)
> and public interest players (civil society and governments) has always
> been clear, and we would be doing great disservice to the global
> society if in the name of multistakeholderism we try to distinguish
> this difference.
>
> As Carlton notes in his email
>
> Sober commentators have already weighed in on the implications
> of what they see as Google switching sides in the NN debate.
> Most have come to recognize the critical issue; when loads of
> money is in play, priorities tend to follow the money. It is
> quixotic to pretend otherwise.
>
> It is time we also stopped pretending otherwise. We should be working
> for deepening democracy - a concept that challenges government's
> singular authority by complementing it with other forms of interest
> representation, rather than multistakeholderism, a concept which seems
> built to give political respectability to private interests.
>
> Parminder
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday 12 August 2010 11:51 PM, SAMUELS,Carlton A wrote:
> > Parminder:
> >
> > I share the sentiments in your final paragraph even as you badly
> > misread my misgivings. To report what is – and recognize the nature
> > of things – can hardly be construed as endorsement. Sober
> > commentators have already weighed in on the implications of what
> > they see as Google switching sides in the NN debate. Most have come
> > to recognize the critical issue; when loads of money is in play,
> > priorities tend to follow the money. It is quixotic to pretend
> > otherwise.
> >
> >
> >
> > I cut my professional teeth in the telecommunications business, pre
> > Final Modified Judgment; Judge Green’s Order that broke up Ma Bell.
> > And it is from certain knowledge that I can declare that
> > telecommunications companies have always had preferred customers and
> > show preference in very business-like practical ways for those
> > customers. Routine business transactions that hardly ever see the
> > light of a [public] day. Coupled to this, they occupy a critical
> > portion of the Internet ecosystem. Gut check: they are principally
> > sellers of connectivity and bandwidth. And like every other seller,
> > volume transactions matter. To resist acknowledging that there is a
> > marketplace that has certain behaviours is untenable. At least,
> > for me.
> >
> >
> >
> > We – civil society – are left with very few dogs in the hunt. One
> > of them is to make personal statements that undergird our
> > opposition. Grouch Marx was alleged to have said “I don’t want to
> > belong to any club that will have me as a member”. The sentiment
> > expressed has a larger embrace and this is where you’ll find me.
> > Ginger’s response to Apple and Apple products is part of that piece;
> > I own no Apple products and I will never buy an Iphone. Another is
> > stoking public disgust. Because even the most rapacious corporation
> > is mindful of its public image. Sometimes, even more so than
> > politicians! [It was fascinating to watch the public contortions of
> > BP in recent past!]
> >
> >
> >
> > My position is that this ‘knowing’ is what fuels the big picture
> > response, whether it involves politicians driven to act for fear of
> > losing votes or acting in collaboration with other interests out of
> > genuine belief. This is the basis for my argument that transparency
> > trumps.
> >
> >
> >
> > Carlton
> >
> >
> >
> > From:parminder [mailto:parminder at itforchange.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:49 AM
> > To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > Subject: Re: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Carlton
> >
> > On Wednesday 11 August 2010 04:36 AM, SAMUELS,Carlton A wrote:
> >
> > Ginger hit the nail squarely on its head; the crux of the NN issue
> > for civil society is transparency.
> >
> >
> > No, transparency is hardly enough. a quote from a quote in Ginger's
> > subsequent email "That way, as Americans lose access to the free and
> > open Internet, they can visibly watch it go away."
> >
> > How does it matter if I know something is happening if I have no way
> > of influencing it?
> >
> >
> >
> > The competitive free market will always devise methods, processes
> > and activities intended to create advantage for one or other player. There will always be players willing to make investments to pump their wares; something for free that others are charging for is a tried and true method, ala "free" text messaging for x period.
> >
> > Lowering the barrier to entry or participation is another. MS
> > Windows took pole position in the OS space because there were apps driving its market penetration; a readily available SDK fueled the spread. Case in point: despite the hype and sleekness of the Iphone, it wouldn't have been such a hit without those apps. And the smart decision to freely distribute its SDK. Putting some 'skin in the game' by making a popular hi-traffic app available for free is not a stretch in marketing imagination.
> >
> >
> > Even in terms of commercial regulation, why does then EU fine
> > Microsoft Billions of dollars for bundling IE with its OS? And this
> > when market distortions vis a vis stand alone applications like OS
> > and browsers is not one tenth of what vertical integration and
> > bundling would do in the network or Internet space.
> >
> > However, if one doesnt believe in need to watch over possible
> > excesses of market power, one just doesnt. No amount of argument can
> > do anything about it. One can chose to be more bothered about the
> > daily new glamorous things one gets on one's i-phone and the
> > Internet, or be more bothered about the structural implications of
> > vertical integrations in the network space to the hopes set by the
> > Internet for a more egalitarian world.
> >
> > You seem to be happy that Apple bundles so much goodies with its
> > i-phone, McTim and Ginger are unhappy about the exclusive walls that
> > the apps ecology of i-phone and other Apple products are creating,
> > and therefroe refuse to use Apple products. Neither stances, in my
> > view, is enough from a civil society advocacy group perspective
> > which needs to probe the deeper policy issues and come up with
> > responses that serve the progressive cause and advoacte them
> > strongly on behalf of those who cannot be present in these forums
> > but whose lives are nonetheless greatly affected by these
> > developments.
> >
> > In any case, at least in my view, Internet is not just a market
> > place, it is a social space for our non-commerical social
> > interactions, it is a public media and a public sphere, it is a
> > space for exercising citizenship. Perhaps without discussions on
> > these deeper issues and essential nature of the Internet and what we
> > take it to be, discussions on a 'simple act' of a free Internet
> > based service wont go anywhere.
> >
> > Parminder
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Innovation tumbles over innovation, that's the law.
> >
> > Carlton
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ginger Paque [mailto:gpaque at gmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:37 AM
> > To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Ian Peter
> > Subject: Re: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles
> >
> > Ian and Parminder,
> >
> > This is an interesting point for me, but I wonder where the line is
> > between advertising and other issues, like 'free benefits' which
> > David mentions. For instance, when text messaging was first
> > available in Venezuela, it was free. It was free for long enough to
> > get everyone hooked on it. Then they started charging for it.
> >
> > It is difficult for me to see this as a NN issue since it sounds
> > more like a 'free trial', or a 'package deal' that attracts
> > customers. My serious issues with NN are lack of transparency, not
> > marketing.
> >
> > Where do you see this 'line'?
> >
> > I think this is a good time to discuss NN so that we can be more
> > productive in Vilnius.
> >
> > Best, Ginger
> >
> > On 8/7/2010 11:23 PM, Ian Peter wrote:
> >
> > Hi Parminder,
> >
> > Unfortunately Australia has already jumped ship on this too. It is common
> > practice for ISPs here (who have volume charging regimes) to create free
> > zones of their partner sites which do not attract volume charges and/or
> > traffic shaping when people exceed download limits. Nobody here seems to
> > want to pick this up as an issue. To me, this is a distortion of a free
> > market and an open Internet at the same time and should be attracting a lot
> > more attention.
> >
> > The mobile world, as you mention, brings with it other distortions and
> > potential distortions (eg built in apps and interfaces)
> >
> >
> > I agree - we should discuss.
> >
> >
> > Ian Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: parminder<parminder at itforchange.net>
> > Reply-To:<governance at lists.cpsr.org>, parminder<parminder at itforchange.net>
> > Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 08:51:02 +0530
> > To:<governance at lists.cpsr.org>,<ciresearchers at vancouvercommunity.net>
> > Subject: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles
> >
> > Hi All
> >
> > The biggest mobile operator in India, Airtel, is providing Facebook free
> > of data download charges in India (apparently, only for 2 months). I
> > understand this is happening in other countries too; i read about
> > something similar in Russia.
> >
> > I consider this as an outright violation of net
> > neutrality (NN).
> >
> > Since there are existing codes of conduct on NN in some countries like
> > Norway and Brazil, I will like to know from those who know and
> > understand these country specific arrangements well if such a thing as
> > above will be considered a NN violation under these
> > codes.
> >
> > If indeed developing countries are to have any chance of being a part of
> > shaping and governing the future of the Internet, we should start
> > testing such cases as above with the telecom regulatory authourities,
> > and if needed with courts and anti-trust bodies.
> >
> > Parminder
> >
> > PS: See latest developments on NN debate in the US
> > at
> >
> > http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/08/google-verizon-close-to-their-
> > own-net-neutrality-deal.ars
> >
> >
> > It appears that there is some move to treat wireless or mobile based
> > Internet on a different level vis a vis NN than
> > wired Internet.
> >
> > As the largest market players - here, Verizon and Google - seek to
> > arrive at a mutually convenient arrangement, and the only other party
> > to it is the US gov, itself representing very partisan, and largely
> > dominant, interests, as far as the global public Internet is concerned,
> > the real shape of global IG is quite evident. Where does the IGF, and
> > indeed the IGC come into this may be a question that we need to ponder
> > upon.
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> > governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> > governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> >
> > For all list information and functions, see:
> > http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> >
> > Translate this email:
> > http://translate.google.com/translate_t
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> > governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> > governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> >
> > For all list information and functions, see:
> > http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> >
> > Translate this email:
> > http://translate.google.com/translate_t
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> > governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> > governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> >
> > For all list information and functions, see:
> > http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> >
> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> > governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> > governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> >
> > For all list information and functions, see:
> > http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> >
> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
> >
> plain text document attachment (message-footer.txt)
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
anriette esterhuysen - ?executive director
association for progressive communications
p o box 29755 melville - south africa 2109
anriette at apc.org - tel/fax + 27 11 726 1692
http://www.apc.org
APC 1990-2010 www.apc.org
Thank you for helping make APC what it is today!
¡Gracias por hacer de APC lo que es hoy!
Merci d'avoir contribué à faire d'APC ce qu'elle est aujourd'hui!
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
For all list information and functions, see:
http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
For all list information and functions, see:
http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
For all list information and functions, see:
http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
More information about the Governance
mailing list