[governance] Re: Internet voting and work of Craig Simon of this list

[Paul Lehto]

An internet-based speech forum, at least one that accepts as a model
the idea of presenting all points of view to the decision-makers
(voters) without substantial filtering is something the internet could
do a great job on, since the omission of a point of view would be
relatively easy to show.

I quibble just a bit with your use of the word "pristine" as that is
easily taken in some kind of utopian sense.  Democratic elections are
PURE procedure -- nothing but procedure.  IF the procedure is not
basically "pristine" you've got a defective procedure, which is to
say, nothing at all but a nullity.  Incorrectly designed procedures or
improperly performed procedures nullify the results or at least create
serious questions about whether results should be nullified (human
laziness wanting to rescue the election from being redone if at all
possible).  I'm not saying Craig intended the utopian sense, but I'm
reacting to the use of the word "pristine" nevertheless.

Pristine is a reasonable expectation when, as to voting, we are, after
all, only doing simple arithmetic, and adding only by 1s.  All of us
can do that prior to leaving compulsory schooling.

Paul Lehto, Juris Doctor

On 10/29/09, Craig Simon <cls at rkey.com> wrote:
> To reiterate what I wrote when this discussion was raised in an earlier
> thread:
>
> ... where formal public law-making and officer-selecting elections are
> concerned, I'm not an advocate of Internet voting in particular, or of
> electronic voting in general. I agree with those who argue that a system
> of physically auditable records marked by the voter in a secret manner
> (which we might call the "Hard Australian Ballot") promises a far more
> legitimate account of voter desires.
>
> ...By putting aside (for now) the daunting but critical challenge of
> pristine legitimacy, it's possible to address other important ones...
> namely, how to facilitate a style of mass, diversified participation
> that can effectively build consensus around valuable ideas.
>
> ++++
>
> So, it's clear enough that the system I've been developing is indeed
> flavored more like a computer science project than an immediate solution
> to the hard problems of online voting. Nevertheless, it's a project with
> a very practical intent.
>
> Successful online-based democracies will need fair, scalable venues for
> debate and discussion at least as much as they need secure election
> processes. The system I've been developing is designed to enable online
> democracy in the sense of a town hall, caucus, Indaba, or Loya Jirga,
> where opinions are rendered in public and decision-making is an open
> process.
>
> The goal is to build a set of tools that members of large online
> communities can use to: 1) gain the best possible awareness of candidate
> options being raised within their communities, and; 2) build consensus
> around the preferred candidates.
>
> The project I've got in mind requires many pieces. One is already in
> operation as a ranked choice voting system that provides an interactive
> ballot and a rich visual display of results in real time. Please feel
> free to try it out at http://apps.facebook.com/we-vote/
>
> Thanks for your interest,
>
> Craig Simon
>
> Paul Lehto wrote:
>> Dear Mr. Simon, Does your work address some of the preliminary
>> objections and concerns in the links below?  If it dispenses with
>> them, I'd be particularly interested in reading what you have to say
>> in your links below (though I'm not saying I won't in any event)
>>
>> The fundamental, and a very fundamental difference indeed, between a
>> typical computer science project and internet voting is that (a) the
>> interests of the participants in voting are wildly diverse and
>> contradictory, especially considering that a valid election is
>> necessary to replace an incumbent and incumbents typically control all
>> of the electino laws and rules, thus lacking any real incentive to do
>> it right, and (b) the voting for democratic purposes must be
>> transparent (except for one's own private or secret ballot) and,
>> unlike the typical corporate context, the insiders are a much greater
>> threat than even employees in banks are for embezzlement (the #1 theft
>> risk in nearly all businesses) because elections determine the power
>> and composition of the government, yet are run by governments or their
>> direct designees, creating an intense conflict of interest.
>>
>> The links to the internet voting reports, or one of them plus its
>> follow up, are below.
>>
>> Paul Lehto, Juris Doctor
>>
>> A report written for the Air Force about their SERVE system, Jan 2004.
>> "A Security Analysis of the Secure Electronic Registration and Voting
>> Experiment (SERVE)" Co-authors are Dr. David Jefferson, Dr. Aviel D.
>> Rubin, Dr. Barbara Simons, and Dr. David Wagner. The points are still
>> valid according to everything I've heard or the authors are aware of.
>> The same web page also includes a link to "The new report in response
>> to the May 2007 DoD report on Voting Technologies for UOCAVA Citizens"
>> http://www.servesecurityreport.org/
>>
>>
>> On 10/19/09, Craig Simon <cls at rkey.com> wrote:
>>> If you folks actually do start discussing scalable online democracy in
>>> practical terms, please keep in mind that I've been taking concrete
>>> steps on this.
>>>
>>> There's still a very long way to go, but you can experience the current
>>> prototype on Facebook at http://apps.facebook.com/we-vote/ .
>>>
>>> This project is a direct consequence of my Ph.D. research on the DNS
>>> governance debates (see http://www.rkey.com/essays/diss.pdf ).
>>>
>>> Craig Simon
>>>
>>> Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would conclude that you weren't interested in discussing practical
>>>> democracy, just the theory. Hey, I'm an engineer at heart; I like
>>>> talking about practical solutions.
>>>>
>>>>  >Please excuse me if I'm wrong, but I just get the abiding impression
>>>>  >you're not really serious about furthering democracy if you're not
>>>>  >upset with ICANN right now...
>>>>
>>>> I've repeatedly said I'm not implying any opinion about ICANN (either
>>>> positive or negative) as a result of this discussion with you.
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>>
>>
>


-- 
Paul R Lehto, J.D.
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