[governance] ICANN/USG Affirmation of Commitments

[Jeffrey A. Williams]

Avri and all,

  My response/comments interspersed below.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Avri Doria <avri at psg.com>
>Sent: Oct 5, 2009 12:54 PM
>To: Governance List <governance at lists.cpsr.org>
>Subject: Re: [governance] ICANN/USG Affirmation of Commitments
>
>
>On 5 Oct 2009, at 11:55, McTim wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I expect that no one will directly attack my argument for democracy,
>>
>> I will, see above.
>>
>>
>>> because they would self-define themselvse as undemocratic,
>>
>> or more democractic, as I do.
>>
>
>
>I think you make a lot of sense McTim.
>
>Democracy has a goal of expressing the will of the people.  But there  
>are more ways of discovering and expressing this will then just mass  
>elections, held frequently under the pressures of propaganda, mass  
>illusion, fear and fraud.

Agreed.  But knowing what the will of the people actually is can
only accurately or reasonably accurately measured by the people
voting their will.
>
>Democracy is an ideal that can be approached in many ways.
>
>Most national type elections i have seen in my life have not  
>approached it very closely. Though elections on a more local basis  
>seems to be pretty good, large scale elections seem to have more  
>problems.

Democracy and elections that significantly define same, is not 
perfict, but without the will of the people expressed in voting
that will cannot be truly known.
>
>Whereas i think that that the Nomcom formulations that you find in the  
>IETF and ICANN are often decent ways of rendering a democratic  
>decision especially when you cannot name, count or reach all of the  
>affected demos.

The IETF is open to anyone wishing to participate and the level of
that participation is largely in the hands of the individual.  Weather
of not those individuals, myself included, desire to be avaliable for
contact is their responsibility individually and recognized by the
IETF as such, same should be true of ICANN, but often is not due to
various forms and methods of Censorship.  
>
>And there are probably other ways - but a one man one vote scheme is  
>rarely the only way, or even necessarily the best way.
>
>Additionally comparing ICANN to an aristocracy seems to be nonsense to  
>me. Aristocracy means one is born into ones position.  I cannot name a  
>single person who was born into their ICANN role.  Someone might make  
>an argument for meritocracy or even for oligarchy in Internet  
>governance but certainly not aristocracy.

Agreed.
>
>So even though I think elections sometimes have their place in  
>democracy, I do not believe they are the be all and end all of  
>democracy and do not believe they are identical with democracy which  
>sometimes must be achieved in other ways, like direct participation or  
>other methods.

Direct participation is one method of participation true enough,
but it is not a method of measure of where the participants
stand on any issue or consideration for decision.
>
>a.
>____________________________________________________________
>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
>For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance