Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -

[Meryem Marzouki]

Hi Mike,

I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental rights" in  
the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I  
meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.

Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :

> Thanks Meryem,
>
> I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial  
> formulation...
> My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of  
> familiarity with
> the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the  
> Internet as a
> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to  
> me rather
> too narrow in that one could add/substitute
> "development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your terminology of
> "democracy".
>
> Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the  
> Internet as a
> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's
> fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that  
> allow for or
> facilitate the use of the Internet."
>
> Mike
>
> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet  
> Authoritarianism -
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's
> strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
> speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental  
> rights). The
> fact that there exist national, regional, international
> legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services
> providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!
>
> Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet
> is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
> Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the
> use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
> sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet
> should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
> differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for
> the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires
> that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use
> of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access
> tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be
> no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,
> allowing access to and production of information as well as full
> participation.
>
> Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's
> Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might
> be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a
> given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not
> the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http://
> report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on
> a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.
>
> Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
> personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
> which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
> getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would
> qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))
>
> Best,
> Meryem
>
> Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :
>
>> Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about
>> iTunes
>> or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
>> media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
>> developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
>> (PS2, an
>> obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?
>>
>> I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
>> consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
>> companies
>> create to make us think we have to have it.
>>
>> --c.a.
>>
>> McTim wrote:
>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
>>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
>>>>> appropriate.
>>>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
>>>> inappropriate.
>>>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
>>>>> "Right to the
>>>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain
>>>>> of discussion
>>>>> around "Rights"...
>>>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
>>>> company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
>>>> "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and
>>>> not the computer science kind.
>>>>
>>>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing
>>>> country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as
>>>> imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we
>>>> can also call them names normally associated with governments
>>>> that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
>>>> Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
>>>> agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
>>>> authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
>>>> demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
>>>> everything everywhere else.
>>>>
>>>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys
>>>> or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would
>>>> apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
>>>> Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve
>>>> a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,
>>>> local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
>>>> unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc
>>>> etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.
>>>> All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and
>>>> if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>>
>>>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
>>>> couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't
>>>> watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see
>>>> most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
>>>> theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
>>>> authoritarianism?
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available
>>>> in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out
>>>> why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
>>>> change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>>>
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
>>> say this!
>>>
>>> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Carlos A. Afonso
>> CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
>> Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
>> ====================================
>> new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
>> ====================================
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