[governance] beijing ticket scam - is this governed at all?
Jeffrey A. Williams
jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Sun Aug 3 23:48:44 EDT 2008
Ian and all,
Self regulation doesn't work, and historically has never worked
unless or until there has been strong oversight by a governmental
body/organization with statutory powers to enforce.
Ian Peter wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> I'm not sure it's as black and white as that - in traditional media (in this
> country, and a few others as well) self regulation is a large part of the
> way things operate. And - although I disagree with it - the medical
> profession operates largely under self regulation. In both these cases (and
> I am sure there are many others) industries take it upon themselves to deal
> with their problems in a collegiate manner.
>
> With Internet a degree of this is necessary. For instance, police cannot
> take down a site without industry action - they can only arrest and charge
> people. But that gets complicated because in a few of these cases both
> jurisdiction and law are quite blurred - the recent case of a British
> citizen living in Spain, with Internet servers in the Bahamas, selling
> holidays to Cuba, and having his domain name impounded by a registrar
> located in the USA because it appeared to break the US embargo against Cuba
> is one recent case in point.
>
> And as John mentioned, phishing is of the magnitude of several new sites a
> day. That's beyond Interpol resources who probably should concentrate on
> child porn and similar issues if there resources are thinly spread - and in
> Rio I spent some time talking to a Dutch regulator who felt he could only
> rely on about 3 or so countries to co-operate on phishing issues.
>
> Yes, there probably should be a policing role here and police do get
> involved with APWG. And there probably should be clear legal structures as
> well. But should the Internet industry wait until police issue them with a
> subpoena in an appropriate range of jurisdictions before taking action? Or
> when there is a known problem should they act in accordance with some Code
> of Conduct or agreed mechanism? I guess that's what I meant by
> self-regulation.
>
> For instance, if a bank reports a fake site which is luring their customers,
> should the Internet industry take no action until instructed to do so by the
> police? (and I guess if it should act, in what ways, and what mechanisms are
> in place to ensure effective industry action?)
>
> Ian Peter
> Ian Peter and Associates Pty Ltd
> PO Box 10670 Adelaide St Brisbane 4000
> Australia
> Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773
> www.ianpeter.com
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Wilson [mailto:pwilson at apnic.net]
> > Sent: 05 August 2008 09:19
> > To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; 'John Levine'
> > Subject: RE: [governance] beijing ticket scam - is this governed at all?
> >
> > Ian,
> >
> > Surely this is not a case for industry self-regulation - unless you are a
> > champion of the citizen's arrest?
> >
> > Is it not a regular policing matter? After all, scams have been going on
> > for years, between and across boundaries, even without the aid of the
> > Internet. The first "Nigerian" scam I received came in an envelope on
> > airmail paper, after all.
> >
> > The old Bill has the experience and powers to deal with these, though yes
> > as we all know, they can be rather slow...
> >
> > Paul.
> >
> >
> > --On 5 August 2008 5:33:40 AM +1000 Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks John. The site is now down, but I am interested in the process,
> > as
> > > this was a known scam since last March and was linked to via Forbes,
> > > MSNBC, among others until they found out (somehow). And was live until a
> > > few hours ago. That's a pretty healthy long life for such a site.
> > >
> > > So am I to understand that the response in this case is purely an
> > industry
> > > self regulation one (via MAAWG and/or APWG). I have no problem with
> > > industry self-regulation per se, but is there no legal loop, no ICANN
> > > loop, or do police and/or Interpol complain to MAAWG or APWG (either?).
> > > Or is that optional?
> > >
> > >
> > > I see your point that takedowns can't be automatic without some
> > > validation. But as you say, this would be an excellent area for some
> > > governance guidelines!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ian Peter
> > > Ian Peter and Associates Pty Ltd
> > > PO Box 10670 Adelaide St Brisbane 4000
> > > Australia
> > > Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773
> > > www.ianpeter.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: John Levine [mailto:icggov at johnlevine.com]
> > >> Sent: 04 August 2008 23:42
> > >> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > >> Cc: ian.peter at ianpeter.com
> > >> Subject: Re: [governance] beijing ticket scam - is this governed at
> > all?
> > >>
> > >> > Very interested in analysis of why this is so when it is a known
> > >> > major fraud site that has victims in many countries. Is there any
> > >> > mechanism to stop major international scams?
> > >>
> > >> Sort of, keeping in mind that this particular example is a minor scam,
> > >> not a major one.
> > >>
> > >> There are probably several dozen scam sites like that set up every
> > >> day. There are two interrelated problems -- one is that it's common
> > >> for the registrar to be in one country, the web site in a second, and
> > >> the mail servers sending promotional spam to be in yet a third through
> > >> 50th. The other is that there's a great deal of finger pointing. Is
> > >> the responsible party the registrar, eNom in this case? The hosting
> > >> company where the web site is located, Servepath? The office-in-a-box
> > >> in Arizona that's listed as their address? All of the above? MAAWG
> > >> and the APWG have been working on setting up semi-formal contact
> > >> systems to get registrars and hosters to take down bogus sites, but
> > >> they can't just do a takedown on every random complaint, or else they
> > >> get grief like Godaddy for turning off legitimate sites who have
> > >> annoyed someone.
> > >>
> > >> This would be an excellent area for some governance guidelines. Too
> > >> bad we're too busy deciding what font the ballots should be printed
> > >> in.
> > >>
> > >> R's,
> > >> John
> > >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> > >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> > >> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1589 - Release Date:
> > 8/3/2008
> > >> 1:00 PM
> > >
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> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Paul Wilson, Director-General, APNIC <dg at apnic.net>
> > http://www.apnic.net ph/fx +61 7 3858 3100/99
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
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> > 8:09 AM
>
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