[governance] rights based approach to the Internet
Michael Gurstein
gurstein at gmail.com
Wed Apr 16 13:21:37 EDT 2008
A very elegant formulation! Thanks very much Linda.
BTW, I can see the beginnings of a most interesting and fruitful Workshop
discussion already emerging in our back and forth on this list.
And yes, thank you for the suggestion Parminder, I'm willing to (co?)
co-ordinate the Working Group towards a "Right to the Internet" Workshop at
the IGF should such be agreed to within this forum.
MG
-----Original Message-----
From: ldmisekfalkoff.2 at gmail.com [mailto:ldmisekfalkoff.2 at gmail.com] On
Behalf Of linda misek-falkoff
Sent: April 16, 2008 2:35 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Parminder
Subject: Re: [governance] rights based approach to the Internet
Greetings,
And on the matter of "given entitities", it seems likely that some sort of
jurisprudence (just in the sense what seems fair and what seems possible)
may well underlie claims of what is due all persons in a culture or
pan-culture.
Jurisprudence usually attaches, one might say, to an ontology - a belief
system surrounding what is posited as existing. Yes, that is a rough
sketch.
But it is interesting to think of rights and duties in terms of what exists,
that is believed to exist, or claimed to exist.
Since some may or do argue for a difference between what natively exists
such as water and what is built such as a communications network,. it may
be useful to have a foundational reference e.g. to Maslow's hierarchy of
motivating factors (needs).
Here is a colorful if undetailed representation:
http://www.performance-unlimited.com/samain.htm
We might say the present and ongoing discussion favors seeing the t Internet
as at the basic subsistence level ("Survival") rather than the proportional
(luxury?) "level" of self-actualization. I use the phrase "luxury" with
caution here, having worked with Maslow and I think he did not like that
word, all levels in his model being ostensibly of equal value though at
different stages of developing systems. .
Respectfully and with very best wishes, LDMF.
- Show quoted text -
On 4/14/08, Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
> In its simplest terms I guess the question is whether there is now the
need to state that there is a "Right to the Internet".
Yes. 'Right to the Internet' is the precise statement of the issue, and we
think it is worthy of a workshop discussion. However, my assertion goes
beyond access and right 'to' the Internet, where Internet is considered as a
given entity, not in itself subject to social and political construction,
and therefore to politics and policy. I think the construction of what the
Internet is, in all its layers - logical, content, applications etc (and not
only the infrastructural layer which provided 'access' to this Internet) -
itself is as much an issue and space of rights as it is of market based
exchange, which is how it is at present pre-dominantly seen.
Thus 'right to the Internet' should include certain rights to what is 'on'
the Internet, and also to own and co-construct the Internet (cf
co-constructivism in education). All this implies a very different basis of
IG regime than what we see today. We are looking at a rights based approach
to the Internet (not just to access but to the whole of the Internet) rather
than a market based approach. And this distinction between these two
approaches is almost the staple of development discourse today. And to move
towards such an approach, and the requisite IG regime, we need to
deconstruct the basis of the present regime, and the predominant interests
it represents, and those it excludes, or under-serves.
Parminder
_____
From: Michael Gurstein [mailto:gurstein at gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 10:57 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; 'William Drake'; 'Singh, Parminder'
Subject: Re: [governance] Where are we with IGC workshops?
Bill and all,
I'll chime in a bit here as well... The early history of the Internet in
Developed Countries (I have a somewhat parallel familiarity to yours for
what happened in Canada) is a tangled one in terms of its ultimate
directions and to a considerable degree it depended on who you talked to or
where you were standing as to which set of priorities seemed uppermost...
But that I think is a side issue.
The question that I initially presented was whether or not from a public
policy perspective the Internet should/could (now) be seen as a fundamental
and necessary service i.e. as a counterpart to clean water, fresh air, the
opportunity for democratic participation, and so on. This came from a
reference to statements by Swedish Ministers that the Internet now was such
a service and that this should be one of the broader presuppostions (in
Sweden) underlying decision making around other areas of public policy and
programmes.
In its simplest terms I guess the question is whether there is now the need
to state that there is a "Right to the Internet" and not simply "Rights
concerning the Internet" . If it could be argued/established/promulgated
that there is a "Right to the Internet" (understood in a very broad sense)
this would have quite a significant effect in various countries including my
own (and your own as well I think) where for example, the government has
basically ceded to the private sector a determination of whether (based on
the principles "of the market") or not a specific individual, community or
region should have a reasonable (fair and equitable) means to achieve access
to the Internet.
(FWIW I think as Parminder said some time ago, this may be THE fundamental
CS issue in the context of Internet Governance... As I've indicated in this
space on a number of occasions to my mind and from where I sit with respect
to the Internet and "Civil Society" all the other issues are for most ICT4D
users on the ground either derivative of this fundamental question or simply
of a "technical" rather than "policy" interest...
MG
-----Original Message-----
From: William Drake [mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch]
Sent: April 13, 2008 3:32 AM
To: Singh, Parminder; Governance
Subject: Re: [governance] Where are we with IGC workshops?
Hi Parminder,
There are too many conversations going on simultaneously to spend much juice
on any one of them, but since you're replying to me directly:
I don't agree with your restrictive historical reading of how the net was
seen in the Clinton era. The commercial GII stuff was part of a broader
understanding in the White House that included the noncommercial aspects,
e.g. tackling the global digital divide. I knew the staff involved---Gore's
people, the NEC, the OSTP, etc---and went to a number of meetings they
organized to build consensus across branches of government, business, and
CS, and can say with absolute certainty that you're offering a caricature of
the thinking and efforts. The same multidimensionality was evident at the
domestic level and very much reflected in the enormous debates around the
NII initiative, the 1996 Telecom Act, and even the GEC initiative and ICANN
launch (seriously---Magaziner and company were explicit on this, it was part
of their reasoning for building something to keep names and numbers out of
the ITU). And anyway how the WH framed things in certain contexts to
mobilize ITAA et al doesn't define "how the net was seen" in the US or
anywhere else, it was one element in a much larger set of debates.
I don't believe there is "a" regime for IG. There are many regimes. And
there is no international regime governing access, a largely national (and
in Europe, regional) issue at present (we've been here before). And per the
above, if there was such a regime, the notion that it's purely commercial to
the exclusion of the referenced broader range is a false dichotomy. Hence,
re: "Anyone would agree that the two kinds of areas of activity require
different governance and policy approaches," nope, not me, I think the issue
is misconstructed.
Friendly disagreement, let's agree to disagree rather than debating it ad
infinitum. I would not support proposing an IGC ws on this unless the
problem to be addressed was clarified AND the ws you want on EC AND the
mandate ws AND the jurisdiction ws AND the "internationalization" ws and on
and on. That said, if there's lots of support for this from others besides
you, I fine, I'll roll with whatever people can actually agree on. I would
again suggest that with two weeks left we try to agree a small set of
compelling, coherent and operationally doable proposals rather than have the
sort of wide-ranging, multiple discussions that made agreeing a few position
statements to the last consultation such a Homeric odyssey.
Unless I am mistaken, we now have on the table:
*The nomcom thing, and if memory serves, nominations are due by today, and
we have one, Adam's self-nomination.
*Enhanced cooperation and responding to Sha.
*Narrowing the range of workshop ideas to a consensually supported and
operationally viable set, getting groups organized around these, then
drafting texts and identifying potential speakers and cosponsors, vetting
through the list, then nailing them down.
*Any interventions IGC might want to make at the May consultation.
Suggest we need some structured processes here.
Cheers,
Bill
On 4/13/08 11:21 AM, "Parminder" <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
> >> 4- "Coexistence of commercial and non-profit spaces on the Internet -
> >> implications for IG"
>
> I'd like to hear more from proponents as to what exactly is the problem
> this
> panel would address. Are we saying that such spaces cannot coexist and
> commercial spaces are somehow going to squeeze out non-profit ones (seems
> a
> stretch) or just that some arenas of the commons are getting partially
> walled off by IPR rules or what?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill
>
Bill, I am not completely happy with the present title but for
clarification on the content I refer you to the original email by Michael
Gurstein of 17th May, which I quote.
"However, governments have not similarly acknowledged the public
responsibility attendant on that development which is to ensure some form of
broadly distributed universally accessible public Internet access. (Should
taxpayers be charged a second time for accessing public information
particularly when that second charge would (most generally) represent a tax
on those least able to pay?)"
"I would understand the significance of the above from an "Internet
Governance" perspective as reflecting a shift from concerns with Internet
Governance as developing the broad framework for the "governance" of a
privately delivered widely valuable but discretionary service to the
"governance" of a public good being delivered in the public interest with
the various "governance" implications that would flow from this."
"Surely a significant role for CS in the area of Internet Governance
(understood as the Governance of the Internet) is to find ways of affirming,
supporting and reinforcing this latter perspective and working with
governments and others to determine the policy/programming approaches that
flow from this."
(ends)
Michael argues from how the Internet service is seen, and the need to derive
from it the appropriate policy response, and indeed the appropriate policy
framework, for Internet, and IG. I will extend it further is an allied
direction of not only seeing provision of Internet as one kind of service,
but seeing it as a basic infrastructure for some form, and sector, of
activity or the other, and the implications of it for the IG and Internet
policy frameworks.
Internet was initially seen as a infrastructure of global commerce (ref.
documents on US's idea of Global Information Infrastructure) and its
governance and policy structures and frameworks still conform to such an
view of the Internet. However, increasingly the Internet has become a key
infrastructure of a much greater range of social activities including
governance, and political activity but the nature and premises of its
governance remain the same. In fact much of the (a big section of) civil
society's and 'progressive groups' opposition to the present regime of IG
arises from this structural issue, and not just from the issue of how
transparent, accountable etc ate these IG institutions vis a vis what they
undertake and profess to do. In fact, this structural problem with the
present IG regime versus the transparency/ accountability issue in the
manner these organizations function is at the base of differences within
civil society including within IGC on the attitude to these IG
institutions. Ok, I may be digressing a bit, but this line of argument does
show the relevance and importance of the subject
So, what we want to discuss in this workshop is to analyze and debate how
Internet which started chiefly as a commercial space and infrastructure is
now the space and infrastructure of a much greater range of social activity,
and (perhaps) cannot continued to be governed as it were a space an
infrastructure of merely commercial and economic activity. Anyone would
agree that the two kinds of areas of activity require different governance
and policy approaches. (Though that may be a bit of an overstatement to say
'anyone will agree', because the neo-liberal assertion is that commercial
and economic logics, and by implication governance systems, are adequate for
all/ most sectors of social activity.)
I think this question or set of questions is at the base of much IG
related contestation, and even if it appears a bit esoteric to some, I think
it is important to address and discuss. We would like to do so in this
workshop.
Parminder
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Drake [mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch]
<mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch%5d>
> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:33 PM
> To: Governance
> Subject: Re: [governance] Where are we with IGC workshops?
>
> Hi,
>
> I still wonder about how four workshop proposals from one entity would be
> received first in MAG (especially if space constraints + robust demand
> compel them to turn some down) and then by the larger 'community' if
> approved. Plus, if IGC co-sponsors any of the events planned by
> individual
> members/CSOs, the name would sort of be everywhere on the program. But if
> people, especially our MAGites, think it's not an issue, ok.
>
> From an operational standpoint, four is a lot to organize properly. Just
> the one was time consuming enough last year, given the demands of
> consensus
> building on text formulations, line-up, etc, on list and off, not to
> mention
> allaying fears outside CS that it would be too "controversial" etc. I
> suggest that opt-in subgroups be established now to formulate each of the
> proposals, vet these back through the list by the end of next week latest,
> and then reach out to potential speakers and co-sponsors (long lead times
> normally needed, especially if we're asking governments). Otherwise the
> two
> weeks left before the deadline will pass quickly with us going around and
> around debating across the four and we'll end up having to do another 11th
> hour dash to finalize.
>
> Few specific comments:
>
> On 4/11/08 9:32 PM, "Michael Leibrandt" <michael_leibrandt at web.de> wrote:
>
> > Le 11 avr. 08 à 16:58, Michael Leibrandt a écrit :
> >
> >>
> >> 1- "Role and Mandate of IGF"
> > ***Is it really worth the time - and attractive to potential listeners -
> to
> > use the ws for ex post analysis? People want to know why it makes sense
> to
> > contribute to the IGF process towards India and beyond. At least many
> > government guys do. Anyway, past and future could be combined in the
> title as
> > you suggested.
>
> Bahiameister, if you check the archives you'll see that we spent a lot of
> time last year in the caucus and with other stakeholders we approached
> having exactly the same discussion about whether it is good to talk about
> "the past." I think it was ultimately accepted that the mandate was not
> agreed in the Neolithic period and that discussing it was not equivalent
> to
> deconstructing cave drawings. And in practice, the workshop discussion
> was
> very much forward looking, with what was agreed the IGF should be doing
> now
> as a starting point. I think this was reflected in the ws report. We
> have
> a serviceable ws description now, it could be tweaked a little to make
> clear
> the follow up will build on rather than repeat last year, but I wouldn't
> go
> back and reinvent the wheel unless we just want to blow scarce time.
>
> >> 2- "Critical Internet Resources"
> >>
> >> Maybe we can openly say >Internationalization of Internet
> >> Governance<?
> >
> > Why not. A bit of a holdall, though, just like CIR.
> >
> > ***Agree. Maybe colleagues have a better wording.
>
> I agree this would be the right focus, value-adding and not really
> explored
> since WGIG/WSIS. Better than just "CIR" which it could be claimed has
> been
> done etc. One concern: I hate to sound like a poli sci weenie, but to at
> least some folks, internationalization means inter-nationalization, that
> is,
> an inter-sovereign state process. Do we want to go there, open up a blast
> from the past discussion with Russia, Iran, et al. about whether the term
> means shared sovereignty and intergovernmentalism, or can we find a better
> framing, something about global multistakeholder gov of CIR?
>
> >> 3- "IG and global jurisdiction - political, legal, contractual,
> >> technical and private means/instruments"
> >>
> >> Is it really about >jurisdiction< at the global level, or more
> >> about >decision making< processes in a wider sense?
> >
> > For former messages on this, I understand it's actually about
> > jurisdiction
> >
> > ***Maybe I have a problem with the phrase >global jurisdiction< because
> I
> > don`t see a one world government defending a global legal framework yet
> (and
> > don`t want to have that, to be clear). WIPO ADR decisions on gTLD, for
> > example, are actually not >jurisdiction<. The growing problem is, to my
> > knowledge, that national/regional jurisdiction more and more have de
> facto
> > extraterritorial effects.
>
> Maybe I'm filtering through my own little prism, but I thought that the
> idea
> was to look at the consequences of competing national claims of
> jurisdiction
> and the extraterritorial extension of laws, regulations, court decisions,
> etc., not just with respect to CIR (e.g. the US/Cuba business) but also
> other aspects of IG as well---content issues from Yahoo to YouTube,
> e-commerce, IPR, etc. Raising concerns about the fragmenting impact of
> unilaterally imposed governance doesn't necessarily point to a "global
> jurisdiction" or "world government" solution. Encouraging the exercise of
> restraint, consultation and coordination etc. would be more appealing;
> other
> architectures are imaginable as well. We might even be able to get
> industry
> or "TC" co-sponsorship on this one, depending on how it's framed. If we
> form
> subgroups to push forward proposals, I volunteer to be on this one.
>
> >> 4- "Coexistence of commercial and non-profit spaces on the Internet -
> >> implications for IG"
>
> I'd like to hear more from proponents as to what exactly is the problem
> this
> panel would address. Are we saying that such spaces cannot coexist and
> commercial spaces are somehow going to squeeze out non-profit ones (seems
> a
> stretch) or just that some arenas of the commons are getting partially
> walled off by IPR rules or what?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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>
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***********************************************************
William J. Drake
Director, Project on the Information
Revolution and Global Governance/PSIO
Graduate Institute of International and
Development Studies
Geneva, Switzerland
william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
***********************************************************
____________________________________________________________
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For all list information and functions, see:
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--
Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
*Respectful Interfaces* Programme.
Individual e-post.
For I.D. only: Communications Coordination Committee for the United Nations
(CCC/UN) [ Civsci NGO].
International Disability Caucus, National Disability Party, United Nations
education, values, and technical committees;
Analyst, author, inventor in computing fields ARPANet forward.
Other Affiliations on Request.
n 4/14/08, Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
> In its simplest terms I guess the question is whether there is now the
need to state that there is a "Right to the Internet".
Yes. 'Right to the Internet' is the precise statement of the issue, and we
think it is worthy of a workshop discussion. However, my assertion goes
beyond access and right 'to' the Internet, where Internet is considered as a
given entity, not in itself subject to social and political construction,
and therefore to politics and policy. I think the construction of what the
Internet is, in all its layers - logical, content, applications etc (and not
only the infrastructural layer which provided 'access' to this Internet) -
itself is as much an issue and space of rights as it is of market based
exchange, which is how it is at present pre-dominantly seen.
Thus 'right to the Internet' should include certain rights to what is 'on'
the Internet, and also to own and co-construct the Internet (cf
co-constructivism in education). All this implies a very different basis of
IG regime than what we see today. We are looking at a rights based approach
to the Internet (not just to access but to the whole of the Internet) rather
than a market based approach. And this distinction between these two
approaches is almost the staple of development discourse today. And to move
towards such an approach, and the requisite IG regime, we need to
deconstruct the basis of the present regime, and the predominant interests
it represents, and those it excludes, or under-serves.
Parminder
_____
From: Michael Gurstein [mailto:gurstein at gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 10:57 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; 'William Drake'; 'Singh, Parminder'
Subject: Re: [governance] Where are we with IGC workshops?
Bill and all,
I'll chime in a bit here as well... The early history of the Internet in
Developed Countries (I have a somewhat parallel familiarity to yours for
what happened in Canada) is a tangled one in terms of its ultimate
directions and to a considerable degree it depended on who you talked to or
where you were standing as to which set of priorities seemed uppermost...
But that I think is a side issue.
The question that I initially presented was whether or not from a public
policy perspective the Internet should/could (now) be seen as a fundamental
and necessary service i.e. as a counterpart to clean water, fresh air, the
opportunity for democratic participation, and so on. This came from a
reference to statements by Swedish Ministers that the Internet now was such
a service and that this should be one of the broader presuppostions (in
Sweden) underlying decision making around other areas of public policy and
programmes.
In its simplest terms I guess the question is whether there is now the need
to state that there is a "Right to the Internet" and not simply "Rights
concerning the Internet" . If it could be argued/established/promulgated
that there is a "Right to the Internet" (understood in a very broad sense)
this would have quite a significant effect in various countries including my
own (and your own as well I think) where for example, the government has
basically ceded to the private sector a determination of whether (based on
the principles "of the market") or not a specific individual, community or
region should have a reasonable (fair and equitable) means to achieve access
to the Internet.
(FWIW I think as Parminder said some time ago, this may be THE fundamental
CS issue in the context of Internet Governance... As I've indicated in this
space on a number of occasions to my mind and from where I sit with respect
to the Internet and "Civil Society" all the other issues are for most ICT4D
users on the ground either derivative of this fundamental question or simply
of a "technical" rather than "policy" interest...
MG
-----Original Message-----
From: William Drake [mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch]
Sent: April 13, 2008 3:32 AM
To: Singh, Parminder; Governance
Subject: Re: [governance] Where are we with IGC workshops?
Hi Parminder,
There are too many conversations going on simultaneously to spend much juice
on any one of them, but since you're replying to me directly:
I don't agree with your restrictive historical reading of how the net was
seen in the Clinton era. The commercial GII stuff was part of a broader
understanding in the White House that included the noncommercial aspects,
e.g. tackling the global digital divide. I knew the staff involved---Gore's
people, the NEC, the OSTP, etc---and went to a number of meetings they
organized to build consensus across branches of government, business, and
CS, and can say with absolute certainty that you're offering a caricature of
the thinking and efforts. The same multidimensionality was evident at the
domestic level and very much reflected in the enormous debates around the
NII initiative, the 1996 Telecom Act, and even the GEC initiative and ICANN
launch (seriously---Magaziner and company were explicit on this, it was part
of their reasoning for building something to keep names and numbers out of
the ITU). And anyway how the WH framed things in certain contexts to
mobilize ITAA et al doesn't define "how the net was seen" in the US or
anywhere else, it was one element in a much larger set of debates.
I don't believe there is "a" regime for IG. There are many regimes. And
there is no international regime governing access, a largely national (and
in Europe, regional) issue at present (we've been here before). And per the
above, if there was such a regime, the notion that it's purely commercial to
the exclusion of the referenced broader range is a false dichotomy. Hence,
re: "Anyone would agree that the two kinds of areas of activity require
different governance and policy approaches," nope, not me, I think the issue
is misconstructed.
Friendly disagreement, let's agree to disagree rather than debating it ad
infinitum. I would not support proposing an IGC ws on this unless the
problem to be addressed was clarified AND the ws you want on EC AND the
mandate ws AND the jurisdiction ws AND the "internationalization" ws and on
and on. That said, if there's lots of support for this from others besides
you, I fine, I'll roll with whatever people can actually agree on. I would
again suggest that with two weeks left we try to agree a small set of
compelling, coherent and operationally doable proposals rather than have the
sort of wide-ranging, multiple discussions that made agreeing a few position
statements to the last consultation such a Homeric odyssey.
Unless I am mistaken, we now have on the table:
*The nomcom thing, and if memory serves, nominations are due by today, and
we have one, Adam's self-nomination.
*Enhanced cooperation and responding to Sha.
*Narrowing the range of workshop ideas to a consensually supported and
operationally viable set, getting groups organized around these, then
drafting texts and identifying potential speakers and cosponsors, vetting
through the list, then nailing them down.
*Any interventions IGC might want to make at the May consultation.
Suggest we need some structured processes here.
Cheers,
Bill
On 4/13/08 11:21 AM, "Parminder" <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
> >> 4- "Coexistence of commercial and non-profit spaces on the Internet -
> >> implications for IG"
>
> I'd like to hear more from proponents as to what exactly is the problem
> this
> panel would address. Are we saying that such spaces cannot coexist and
> commercial spaces are somehow going to squeeze out non-profit ones (seems
> a
> stretch) or just that some arenas of the commons are getting partially
> walled off by IPR rules or what?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill
>
Bill, I am not completely happy with the present title but for
clarification on the content I refer you to the original email by Michael
Gurstein of 17th May, which I quote.
"However, governments have not similarly acknowledged the public
responsibility attendant on that development which is to ensure some form of
broadly distributed universally accessible public Internet access. (Should
taxpayers be charged a second time for accessing public information
particularly when that second charge would (most generally) represent a tax
on those least able to pay?)"
"I would understand the significance of the above from an "Internet
Governance" perspective as reflecting a shift from concerns with Internet
Governance as developing the broad framework for the "governance" of a
privately delivered widely valuable but discretionary service to the
"governance" of a public good being delivered in the public interest with
the various "governance" implications that would flow from this."
"Surely a significant role for CS in the area of Internet Governance
(understood as the Governance of the Internet) is to find ways of affirming,
supporting and reinforcing this latter perspective and working with
governments and others to determine the policy/programming approaches that
flow from this."
(ends)
Michael argues from how the Internet service is seen, and the need to derive
from it the appropriate policy response, and indeed the appropriate policy
framework, for Internet, and IG. I will extend it further is an allied
direction of not only seeing provision of Internet as one kind of service,
but seeing it as a basic infrastructure for some form, and sector, of
activity or the other, and the implications of it for the IG and Internet
policy frameworks.
Internet was initially seen as a infrastructure of global commerce (ref.
documents on US's idea of Global Information Infrastructure) and its
governance and policy structures and frameworks still conform to such an
view of the Internet. However, increasingly the Internet has become a key
infrastructure of a much greater range of social activities including
governance, and political activity but the nature and premises of its
governance remain the same. In fact much of the (a big section of) civil
society's and 'progressive groups' opposition to the present regime of IG
arises from this structural issue, and not just from the issue of how
transparent, accountable etc ate these IG institutions vis a vis what they
undertake and profess to do. In fact, this structural problem with the
present IG regime versus the transparency/ accountability issue in the
manner these organizations function is at the base of differences within
civil society including within IGC on the attitude to these IG
institutions. Ok, I may be digressing a bit, but this line of argument does
show the relevance and importance of the subject
So, what we want to discuss in this workshop is to analyze and debate how
Internet which started chiefly as a commercial space and infrastructure is
now the space and infrastructure of a much greater range of social activity,
and (perhaps) cannot continued to be governed as it were a space an
infrastructure of merely commercial and economic activity. Anyone would
agree that the two kinds of areas of activity require different governance
and policy approaches. (Though that may be a bit of an overstatement to say
'anyone will agree', because the neo-liberal assertion is that commercial
and economic logics, and by implication governance systems, are adequate for
all/ most sectors of social activity.)
I think this question or set of questions is at the base of much IG
related contestation, and even if it appears a bit esoteric to some, I think
it is important to address and discuss. We would like to do so in this
workshop.
Parminder
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Drake [mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch]
<mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch%5d>
> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:33 PM
> To: Governance
> Subject: Re: [governance] Where are we with IGC workshops?
>
> Hi,
>
> I still wonder about how four workshop proposals from one entity would be
> received first in MAG (especially if space constraints + robust demand
> compel them to turn some down) and then by the larger 'community' if
> approved. Plus, if IGC co-sponsors any of the events planned by
> individual
> members/CSOs, the name would sort of be everywhere on the program. But if
> people, especially our MAGites, think it's not an issue, ok.
>
> From an operational standpoint, four is a lot to organize properly. Just
> the one was time consuming enough last year, given the demands of
> consensus
> building on text formulations, line-up, etc, on list and off, not to
> mention
> allaying fears outside CS that it would be too "controversial" etc. I
> suggest that opt-in subgroups be established now to formulate each of the
> proposals, vet these back through the list by the end of next week latest,
> and then reach out to potential speakers and co-sponsors (long lead times
> normally needed, especially if we're asking governments). Otherwise the
> two
> weeks left before the deadline will pass quickly with us going around and
> around debating across the four and we'll end up having to do another 11th
> hour dash to finalize.
>
> Few specific comments:
>
> On 4/11/08 9:32 PM, "Michael Leibrandt" <michael_leibrandt at web.de> wrote:
>
> > Le 11 avr. 08 à 16:58, Michael Leibrandt a écrit :
> >
> >>
> >> 1- "Role and Mandate of IGF"
> > ***Is it really worth the time - and attractive to potential listeners -
> to
> > use the ws for ex post analysis? People want to know why it makes sense
> to
> > contribute to the IGF process towards India and beyond. At least many
> > government guys do. Anyway, past and future could be combined in the
> title as
> > you suggested.
>
> Bahiameister, if you check the archives you'll see that we spent a lot of
> time last year in the caucus and with other stakeholders we approached
> having exactly the same discussion about whether it is good to talk about
> "the past." I think it was ultimately accepted that the mandate was not
> agreed in the Neolithic period and that discussing it was not equivalent
> to
> deconstructing cave drawings. And in practice, the workshop discussion
> was
> very much forward looking, with what was agreed the IGF should be doing
> now
> as a starting point. I think this was reflected in the ws report. We
> have
> a serviceable ws description now, it could be tweaked a little to make
> clear
> the follow up will build on rather than repeat last year, but I wouldn't
> go
> back and reinvent the wheel unless we just want to blow scarce time.
>
> >> 2- "Critical Internet Resources"
> >>
> >> Maybe we can openly say >Internationalization of Internet
> >> Governance<?
> >
> > Why not. A bit of a holdall, though, just like CIR.
> >
> > ***Agree. Maybe colleagues have a better wording.
>
> I agree this would be the right focus, value-adding and not really
> explored
> since WGIG/WSIS. Better than just "CIR" which it could be claimed has
> been
> done etc. One concern: I hate to sound like a poli sci weenie, but to at
> least some folks, internationalization means inter-nationalization, that
> is,
> an inter-sovereign state process. Do we want to go there, open up a blast
> from the past discussion with Russia, Iran, et al. about whether the term
> means shared sovereignty and intergovernmentalism, or can we find a better
> framing, something about global multistakeholder gov of CIR?
>
> >> 3- "IG and global jurisdiction - political, legal, contractual,
> >> technical and private means/instruments"
> >>
> >> Is it really about >jurisdiction< at the global level, or more
> >> about >decision making< processes in a wider sense?
> >
> > For former messages on this, I understand it's actually about
> > jurisdiction
> >
> > ***Maybe I have a problem with the phrase >global jurisdiction< because
> I
> > don`t see a one world government defending a global legal framework yet
> (and
> > don`t want to have that, to be clear). WIPO ADR decisions on gTLD, for
> > example, are actually not >jurisdiction<. The growing problem is, to my
> > knowledge, that national/regional jurisdiction more and more have de
> facto
> > extraterritorial effects.
>
> Maybe I'm filtering through my own little prism, but I thought that the
> idea
> was to look at the consequences of competing national claims of
> jurisdiction
> and the extraterritorial extension of laws, regulations, court decisions,
> etc., not just with respect to CIR (e.g. the US/Cuba business) but also
> other aspects of IG as well---content issues from Yahoo to YouTube,
> e-commerce, IPR, etc. Raising concerns about the fragmenting impact of
> unilaterally imposed governance doesn't necessarily point to a "global
> jurisdiction" or "world government" solution. Encouraging the exercise of
> restraint, consultation and coordination etc. would be more appealing;
> other
> architectures are imaginable as well. We might even be able to get
> industry
> or "TC" co-sponsorship on this one, depending on how it's framed. If we
> form
> subgroups to push forward proposals, I volunteer to be on this one.
>
> >> 4- "Coexistence of commercial and non-profit spaces on the Internet -
> >> implications for IG"
>
> I'd like to hear more from proponents as to what exactly is the problem
> this
> panel would address. Are we saying that such spaces cannot coexist and
> commercial spaces are somehow going to squeeze out non-profit ones (seems
> a
> stretch) or just that some arenas of the commons are getting partially
> walled off by IPR rules or what?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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***********************************************************
William J. Drake
Director, Project on the Information
Revolution and Global Governance/PSIO
Graduate Institute of International and
Development Studies
Geneva, Switzerland
william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
***********************************************************
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