[governance] Are Internet users powerless or empowered, and how?

Sat Dec 1 12:58:08 EST 2007

Hi, Carlos.

My definition of liberalization is not only privatization.  You are 
correct in reporting that a privatized monopoly is worse than a 
public monopoly, and I am sorry for your experiences.

In "liberalization," (probably a term that should not be used without 
some contextual description), I include:

1. Privatization of state providers of ICT services
2. Effective competition in all markets
3. Strong and non-discriminatory interconnection requirements
4. No artificial barriers to entry
5. A "level playing field" for all competitors
6. A technologically neutral legal context for ICT development.

  ... and probably a couple of other things I can't think of at the moment.

Does that help?

George

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At 8:21 AM -0200 12/1/07, Carlos Afonso wrote:
>George and all,
>
>I strongly disagree with your view (which we hear from time to time 
>in this debate) that liberalization (aka privatization, part of the 
>[in]famous "enabling environment" business keeps preaching at us) 
>per se solves any of the problems we are debating.
>
>Brazil had a pervasive privatization process in the late nineties. 
>It was strongly criticized not because of privatization in itself, 
>but because it was incredibly underpriced, a real gift to big 
>business by the federal government at the time. It was also 
>criticized because it replaced a national monopoly with de facto 
>regional monopolies which (guess what) agreed to act (illegally, of 
>course) as a cartel (so much for the  "competitivity" the so-called 
>"liberalization" tries to sell us as ficticious panacea).
>
>The result: although ANATEL, by law, is able to define price 
>ceilings for telecom services (in agreement with the cartel, of 
>course), it can hardly do so for "value-added" services like 
>Internet connectivity and data transfer. So we have a situation in 
>which broadband pricing is fixed by the cartel at sky-high levels -- 
>much like connectivity pricing is fixed among the giant backbone 
>operators in the North -- with a lousy service quality and serving 
>only "prime markets".
>
>Brazil is now trying to devise ways to get out of this riddle. After 
>all, the cartel leaves nearly half of 5,564 municipalities totally 
>out of the Internet (no local points of presence), since "there is 
>no market", so they are condemned to be perpetually unconnected 
>(except for a minimal telephone service mandatory in the incumbents' 
>contracts). There is no other way except a strong public policy to 
>create a true enabling environment -- one which provides everyone 
>with decently priced and reasonably good access, be it a money 
>machine for a cartel or not. A large existing fiber backbone is 
>being reorganized now to carry government e-services and help in 
>universalizing municipalities' access to the Internet for e-gov 
>services, public schools' connectivity and community nets. And 
>ANATEL is proposing a regulation which will require all regional 
>telco monopolies to install points of presence (with speeds 
>compatible with population size) in every municipality.
>
>I do hope it works.
>
>--c.a.
>
>George Sadowsky wrote:
>>Dan,
>>
>>I would disagree that low costs and more consumer choice, as 
>>reported by Veni, support Karl's claim of powerlessness.
>>
>>Every country has an ISP industry, shaped by competitive forces, 
>>history, and the legislative and regulatory environment in which it 
>>exists.   These determine the structure, conduct, and behavior of 
>>the actors in ISP industry.  In the US, it depends where you are. 
>>If you're in Washington, you have lots of choices; if you're in 
>>Hanover, New Hampshire, you have at most two.   There are locations 
>>in the US where there are no broadband choices.  Some countries, 
>>especially those that are geographically compact, can offer more 
>>comprehensive broadband connectivity in similar policy environments.
>>
>>Users are not made powerless by connectivity prices that are above 
>>lower costs available elsewhere in the world.  The ARE made 
>>powerless by lack of any connectivity or by connectivity that is 
>>outrageously expensive.
>>
>>I would like to stress that these are national and local problems, 
>>and not international problems except to the extent that they are 
>>replicated in country after country.  To the extent that they 
>>exist, I argue that this is a case for telecommunications reform at 
>>the national and local level, and that we should be working with 
>>governments, as well as other sectors of society, to demonstrate 
>>the benefits of liberalization for this sector.
>>
>>On the one had, I think that it's terrific that Bulgarians have all 
>>kinds of choices with respect to the purchase of Internet 
>>connectivity.  On the other hand, I don't think that users in other 
>>countries are necessarily substantially disadvantaged by that.  We 
>>need to work with all countries to enable them to understand the 
>>opportunity costs of not liberalizing, so that they can make the 
>>Internet even more of an empowering tool than it is already.
>>
>>I would argue that institutional governance of the Internet is 
>>important, but less important than seeing that user needs are met. 
>>They are clearly interrelated, but identifying needs comes first, 
>>and then governance arrangements that maximize meeting those 
>>identified needs should follow.
>>
>>Form should follow function.  I think that tends to be forgotten 
>>for a number of postings on this list.  Let's focus first on real 
>>needs and then how to best meet them.  Let's also remember that 
>>when we talk about Internet users, the great majority of them don't 
>>have domain names, so it's not the domain name industry that we 
>>should be focusing on but the user community as a whole, at present 
>>and to a fair extent, in the future also.
>>
>>George
>>
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>>At 3:40 PM -0800 11/30/07, Dan Krimm wrote:
>>>Indeed, Veni, competition in consumer broadband last-mile connectivity
>>>service in the US is dreadfully low.
>>>
>>>So, all that really does is support Karl's claim of end user powerlessness
>>>that George was disputing.  It seems to me that Karl was just allowing
>>>George's point without deep analysis (or perhaps Karl was thinking about
>>>domain-hosting services, independent of last-mile connectivity, where
>>>competition remains quite robust even in the US -- "ISP" may not be a very
>>>precise term anymore) because Karl was making a different point about power
>>>in institutional structures of political governance, rather than power in a
>>>commercial marketplace (two *very* different realms).
>>>
>>>Please, this is just a "gotcha" tactic of rhetorical distraction, and
>>>brings us off point from what Karl and George are really trying to discuss,
>>>which is a substantive issue of real significance.
>>>
>>>This is precisely part of the "noise" that dilutes productive discussion on
>>>this list.  There was really no need for this comment at all, and nothing
>>>was really gained by it, unless you were simply trying to spuriously
>>>undermine trust in Karl as an individual speaker.  That is not a
>>>substantive topic.
>>>
>>>As long as we're trying to clear the list of ad hominems, can we please try
>>>to clear this stuff off too?  It dissipates the substantive focus of
>>>discussions on the list, and that's good for no one except those who wish
>>>to obstruct and distract from such productive discussion.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>At 3:31 PM -0500 11/30/07, Veni Markovski wrote:
>>>>At 11:20 11/30/2007  -0800, Karl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>For example, yes, we users have great power in the marketplace to
>>>>>select ISP's and the like.
>>>>
>>>>This sounds strange. At least in New York City there is a choice -
>>>>between cable Internet and Verizon. Both are at the same price, more
>>>>or less. Is this really a choice? Compare: in Sofia, Bulgaria you can
>>>>choose among about 20 big ISPs, and about 500 smaller  (true, in the
>>>>whole city, not each of them covers all of the buildings).
>>>>In New York you can choose between "business" and "family" or
>>>>something like that plan. Speeds - up to 6Mbps. In Sofia - tens of
>>>>plans, speeds - up to 1000 Mbps. Prices - adequate: in New York City
>>>>it is more expensive than in Sofia. I call that a choice.
>>>>
>>>>But, again, that is my own, non US-centric, point of view. Or, 
>>>>rather, fact?
>>>>
>>>>veni
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
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>
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