[governance] Framework convention
Alejandro Pisanty
apisan at servidor.unam.mx
Fri Apr 20 17:02:26 EDT 2007
Ian,
sure thing. Adam Peake has described part of the underlying causes: a
discussion about ICANN sucks up all the oxygen from around. The only
progress of the last weeks in this group is that the issue is now openly
called "ICANN" and not dissimulated under euphemisms like "critical
Internet resources."
Devising a global-governance structure that can have a chance to be useful
in any issue other than the now-solved coordination of the DNS, IP
addressing, etc. systems is hard, requires domain-specific knowledge and
depth of thought.
No wonder that the people who deal with spam, or phishing, or
interconnection costs, or systemic, trans-national impediments to access
to networks and knowledge or freedom of speech or development or data
protection or privacy rights or consumer rights or multilingualism have
gone elsewhere, even for interacting with the recognized experts among us.
Not to speak of the once-held idea that there are a large
number of organizations with a claim for relevance in Internet governance
which do not comply with the WSIS criteria about which no-one has even
started a discussion here.
Alternatively, if this group were to say "we won't try to even discuss a
global-governance mechanism that can have an impact on spam because it is
difficult" we will only have to decide whether we wait for it to become
easy, or dissolve, modestly.
Sense of strategic direction, anyone?
Alejandro Pisanty
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
Director General de Servicios de Computo Academico
UNAM, Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico
Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
Tel. (+52-55) 5622-8541, 5622-8542 Fax 5622-8540
http://www.dgsca.unam.mx
*
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, www.isoc.org
Participa en ICANN, www.icann.org
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
On Sat, 21 Apr 2007, Ian Peter wrote:
> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 06:42:55 +1000
> From: Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, 'Alejandro Pisanty' <apisan at servidor.unam.mx>
> Subject: RE: [governance] Framework convention
>
> Alx,
>
> Interesting that people put spam and phishing together always - because they
> are primarily email related issues -
>
> But from a governance perspective phishing belongs with cybercrime, I
> suspect, and mechanisms to deal with fraud. Spam in a wider sense may not
> always be criminal - phishing always is.
>
> From a technical perspective, there are measures that assist that assist in
> addressing spam/phishing by assisting in tracking origins of messages, but
> as we saw in the sender id/spf debacle a few years ago, technical measures
> by themselves wont go far. What's lacking, as you suggest, is the governance
> structure whereby all of the regulatory, legal, consumer, technical
> approaches can be utilized and considered in a common integrated strategy or
> series of strategies. I didn't see that happening either pre or post WGIG
> despite increased attention to the problem
>
> Ian Peter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alejandro Pisanty [mailto:apisan at servidor.unam.mx]
> Sent: 20 April 2007 15:30
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Subject: RE: [governance] Framework convention
>
> Ian,
>
> readers of the WGIG report and documents, and people who have sort of
> followed the WSIS and post-WSIS process will of course applaud your
> email/posting here, maybe with some bittersweet feelings, as it re-charts
> the course of the WGIG!
>
> Welcome to 2003, pals, let's get to do the work on the 17 issues that were
> left unsolved. As I asked recently, spam, anyone? Phishing? Any takers for
> interconnection costs?
>
> Yours,
>
> Alejandro Pisanty
>
>
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> Director General de Servicios de Computo Academico
> UNAM, Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico
> Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
> Tel. (+52-55) 5622-8541, 5622-8542 Fax 5622-8540
> http://www.dgsca.unam.mx
> *
> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, www.isoc.org
> Participa en ICANN, www.icann.org
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
>
> On Thu, 19 Apr 2007, Ian Peter wrote:
>
>> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 19:16:20 +1000
>> From: Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>
>> Reply-To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>
>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org,
>> "[iso-8859-1] 'Kleinwächter, Wolfgang'"
>> <wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de>,
>> 'Anriette Esterhuysen' <anriette at apc.org>,
>> 'William Drake' <drake at hei.unige.ch>,
>> 'John Mathiason' <jrmathia at maxwell.syr.edu>
>> Subject: RE: [governance] Framework convention
>>
>> I think Wolfgang has the heart of a good model here. Maybe a task for Rio
> is
>> to develop this and present it.
>>
>> Step one - define the issues that need some form of Internet governance-
> is
>> the current list of 18 issues useful or do we need to extend or refine?
>>
>> Step two - for each issue define
>> * lead stakeholder
>> * other major stakeholders ( I think we need to look at UN organizations
> as
>> well as the three major stakeholder groups)
>>
>> Step three - what does that tell us about which issues might be able to be
>> handled by a common organizational structure (eg do spam and phishing have
>> nearly identical stakeholder structures or are they sufficiently different
>> to suggest different governance models for these two related issues
>> (similarly privacy and copyright etc etc)
>>
>> From this we can make assumptions about models and gap analysis of
> existing
>> organisations.
>>
>> An interesting exercise!
>>
>> PS and as an aside - I appreciate that the avenue for Al Quaeda input is
>> clearly civil society. I think their Internet governance interests perhaps
>> are mainly around issues such as censorship and freedom of expression.
>> (another issue grouping that needs its own structure perhaps). The middle
>> east is becoming a perfect example of a problem that cannot be solved by
>> governments alone without the involvement in a solution of non-government
>> players (aka civil society) and business interests. All three groupings
> have
>> interested intertwined in the current quagmire and attempts to arrive at
>> solutions without involving all three are clearly unworkable. We could
>> rapidly develop a list of a number of current issues where resolution is
>> dependent on interaction of major groupings outside government - in my
>> immediate areas of interest climate change and internet governance are
> clear
>> examples where any one group not working in co-operation with the other
> two
>> major groupings isnt going to make much headway.
>>
>> Ian Peter
>> Ian Peter and Associates Pty Ltd
>> PO Box 10670 Adelaide St Brisbane 4000
>> Australia
>> Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773
>> www.ianpeter.com
>> www.internetmark2.org
>> www.nethistory.info
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kleinwächter, Wolfgang
>> [mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de]
>> Sent: 19 April 2007 17:57
>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Anriette Esterhuysen;
>> governance at lists.cpsr.org; William Drake; John Mathiason
>> Subject: AW: [governance] Framework convention
>>
>> Dear list,
>>
>>
>> One of the challenges is to figure out how the relationship (in legal and
>> political terms) among the stakeholders can be organized (and formalized),
>> probably on a case by case basis. In a paper for WGIG (Internet
>> Co-Governance) I proposed a model, where you have basically a trilateral
>> mechanism for each of the IG issues (as listed in the WGIG report), but
> for
>> each issues the triangel would be different. Governmental leadership would
>> be needed in the fight against cybercrime, but also here the involvment of
>> private sector and civil society is needed. On the other hand, the
>> management of the DNS should by led by the private sector (but also here a
>> certain involvment of governments and civil society is needed). In WGIG we
>> listed 18 relevant IG issues, which would mean 18 different governance
>> models, based on multistakeholderism, that is of a specific triangular
>> relationship. With other words, we would have 18 different triangels. I
> have
>> called this IG model the "Tower of Triangels". But again, when we accept,
>> that we are moving towards a system change, then we have to go beyond
>> refering to existing (legal and political) instruments and have to invent
>> something which is new. BTW, the majority of todays war are not among
>> sovereign states. Al Kaida is not a sovereign nationstate, it is a network
>> :-((((.
>>
>> Wolfgang
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Von: Anriette Esterhuysen [mailto:anriette at apc.org]
>> Gesendet: Mi 18.04.2007 23:40
>> An: governance at lists.cpsr.org; William Drake; John Mathiason
>> Betreff: Re: [governance] Framework convention
>>
>>
>>
>> Keep in mind what has been achieved with the
>> UN Economic Commission for Europe's Aarhus
>> Convention on Access to Information, Public
>> Participation in Decision-making and Access to
>> Justice in Environmental Matters.
>>
>> It secure rights to participation and access
>> information.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarhus_Convention
>>
>> I.o.w. the modalities for participation of non-
>> state actors in the 'implementation' of a
>> framework convention (or any other multi-
>> lateral agreement) could theoretically be
>> determined by a linked convention established
>> specifically for that purpose. And, it can
>> address some of the concerns that has been
>> raised.
>>
>> Anriette
>>
>>> Bill,
>>>
>>> I'll retain a copy of your notes and try to answer some of your
>>> comments in the paper. I know that for inexplicable reasons we are
>>> on different sides regarding the Framework Convention idea (we
>>> clearly did not agree in Athens) and I will try to convince you with
>>> the power of argumentation and, even, facts in the paper.
>>>
>>> Just to clarify one small point: a Convention is a treaty (it is a
>>> multilateral treaty as defined in the Vienna Convention -- see -- on
>>> the Law of Treaties). The other things you mention (declarations,
>>> resolutions, recommendations, guidelines, informal agreements) are
>>> probably morally binding on those that agree to them, but as might be
>>> said -- paraphrasing an old lawyer's maxim: "a moral agreement is
>>> worth the convention it is written in."
>>>
>>> We'll have fun continuing our discussion of this.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> John
>>> On Apr 18, 2007, at 14:56, William Drake wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Lee,
>>>>
>>>> There are about twenty different conversations now running under the
>>>> heading, "Re: AW: [governance] .xxx. igc and igf." If we could
>>>> please separate this thread from the interpersonal pissing matches
>>>> etc. that'd be helpful, I've accidentally deleted some bits and had
>>>> to go find them in the list archive.
>>>>
>>>> On 4/18/07 5:26 PM, "Lee McKnight" <LMcKnigh at syr.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bill, Wolfgang,
>>>>>
>>>>> As John notes it's hard at end of semester to keep up with this
>>>>> list, sorry for fading in and out of the dialog.
>>>>
>>>> You're not alone
>>>>
>>>>> I also did a short paper adapting from John's on my views on the
>>>>> framework convention also a couple years back for an OII meeting,
>>>>> but I admit that was also very sketchy. I'll dig that out though
>>>>> and John and I can argue some on what we IGPers mean and get
>>>>> something put together by the time John suggests, for the rest of
>>>>> you to throw stones at.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds good. But I have an antecedent question. Why are we
>>>> talking about a
>>>> Convention per se? Why fix on this particular institutional form,
>>>> rather than say a standard treaty, a Declaration, a Resolution, a
>>>> Recommendation, Guidelines, an MOU, a multistakeholder informal
>>>> agreement, or something else? I can't help wondering if the basic
>>>> rationale isn't, 'because the UN has done conventions in other,
>>>> unrelated fields, let's have one here too,' which to me wouldn't be
>>>> a compelling answer. Normally one would think form should follow
>>>> function, but it seems like you guys are saying first we should
>>>> agree there needs to be a Convention and then secondly we'll figure
>>>> out what it's for, which seems odd.
>>>>
>>>>> For now let's just say the rules objectives etc for an Internet
>>>>> framework convention are yet to be defined, and an Internet
>>>>> Framework
>>>>
>>>> Right. I really don't mean this in a nasty way, but please tell me
>>>> why this isn't ass backwards. Why not work from a precise problem
>>>> definition => bounded range of institutional options, pros and cons
>>>> of each => the selection of a solution?
>>>>
>>>>> Convention could be more or less like the precedents John & Adam
>>>>> have cited. Anything to avoid reinventing wheels makes sense, on
>>>>> the other
>>>>
>>>> Uh, that's how the ITU has made decisions for over a century. They
>>>> didn't invent something new when the telephone came along, they
>>>> grafted language onto telegraph arrangements. The international
>>>> standardization and diffusion of telephony was slowed in
>>>> consequence. Ditto datacommunications. Institutionally embedded
>>>> history's not always the best guide within much less across global
>>>> policy domains.
>>>>
>>>>> hand eg i would imagine a greater emphasis on coordinating remote
>>>>> participation given the Internet crowd.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah in the end there might be the framework of frameworks signed
>>>>>
>>>>> only
>>>>> by States,and translated to domestic legislation but under and
>>>>> around that umbrella a pile of private and public agreements and
>>>>> commitments may be made, and revised over time, also by non-state
>>>>> actors, ie business, civil society, and individuals. Without
>>>>> ICANN, APWG, etc
>>>>
>>>> How would non-state actors revise a Convention done under the UN
>>>> (meaning ECOSOC, which doesn't allow their participation)?
>>>>
>>>>> etc, then the framework is pretty empty. As Bertrand notes, the
>>>>> GAC is putting forth basic 'good governance' notions to frame its
>>>>> own activities, that is certainly to be preferred to alternatives.
>>>>> So it's not like the framework precludes the need for various
>>>>> groups to do what they are doing, as well as they can. It may
>>>>> however help institutionalize other Internet governance processes,
>>>>> to the degree there is interest and a ratioanle for doing so.
>>>>
>>>> Sure
>>>>
>>>>> And as for Rio, I guess as Vittorio and Jacqueline agree, there's
>>>>> nothing stopping a discussion on ICANN there; who participates,
>>>>> and the agenda, and the eventual ICANN response to any
>>>>> recommendations emanating from the discussion, will determine its
>>>>> ultimate utility, or lack thereof. A discussion on the framework
>>>>> convention would also merit another workshop I'd think. Maybe
>>>>> Parminder and John can coorganize that.
>>>>
>>>> Sure, sure
>>>>
>>>>> Neither of which is to take anything away from work on access and
>>>>> many other critical issues, at IGF, ICANN, or beyond, which IGP
>>>>> also looks forward to contributing to the degree we are able.
>>>>
>>>> Ok. Hope you all understand, I'm not being hostile, I'm just
>>>> puzzled by the reasoning, and in consequence by the frequent
>>>> invocations of the solution.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de 4/18/2007 9:44 AM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> John,
>>>>>
>>>>> can you explain me exactly who would negotiate and who would sign
>>>>> the "Framework Convention" or however you title such a documented
>>>>> arrangement?
>>>>>
>>>>> Would it be a convention under the Vienna Law of Treaty Convention?
>>>>> Would it go through a national ratification procedure? How
>>>>> non-governmental actors would be included into negotiations? How
>>>>> these non-governmental actors, if they would be included, would
>>>>> join such a convention? Just by signing? What about accountability?
>>>>>
>>>>> Content of a FC is important, but here the formalities are even
>>>>> more important.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>
>>>>> wolfgang
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Von: John Mathiason [mailto:jrmathia at maxwell.syr.edu]
>>>>> Gesendet: Mi 18.04.2007 15:39
>>>>> An: governance at lists.cpsr.org; DRAKE William
>>>>> Betreff: Re: [governance] .xxx. igc and igf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill,
>>>>>
>>>>> Any Framework Convention on Internet Governance would have to cover
>>>>> all of the major policy areas that need some agreement in order to
>>>>> ensure the orderly development of the Internet and clearly would
>>>>> have to go beyond core resources, but the core resources would have
>>>>> to be dealt with as a key issue. The scope of an FC would be
>>>>> subject to negotiation but, to anticipate one of the criteria to
>>>>> apply, should deal with issues where existing regimes overlap or
>>>>> conflict.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>> On Apr 18, 2007, at 9:26, DRAKE William wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Great, look forward to it, it will be helpful to the discussion.
>>>>>> In the meanwhile, maybe you could help me and Mawaki out here and
>>>>>> indicate whether this would be intended to address just the
>>>>>> governance of core resources, or IG more generally?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Mathiason wrote:
>>>>>>> Bill,
>>>>>>> An interesting challenge, which deserves to be taken up. There
>>>>>>> are now enough ideas out there to try to put together a more
>>>>>>> complete analysis of what a Framework Convention on Internet
>>>>>>> Governance might look like. In addition to the Climate Change
>>>>>>> Convention (UNFCCC), we now have the WHO Tobacco convention
>>>>>>> (http://www.who.int/tobacco/ framework/en/) which is a framework
>>>>>>> convention in that it specifies principles (tobacco is bad) and
>>>>>>> norms (public policy should address demand) but leaves many of
>>>>>>> the details to further negotiation. Both provide interesting
>>>>>>> precedents on which to draw. It being the end-of- semester in
>>>>>>> the groves of academia, the revised paper may take a couple of
>>>>>>> weeks, but we (IGP) will plan to have it ready before the next
>>>>>>> IGF consultations on 23 May. Best, John On Apr 18, 2007, at 3:48,
>>>>>>> William Drake wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Mawaki,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/18/07 5:36 AM, "Mawaki Chango" <ki_chango at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First, I was bit confused when I read Bill's message below; it
>>>>>>>>> sounds as if an FC (or let call it an "international agrement"
>>>>>>>>> of some sort though "international" sounds more modern than
>>>>>>>>> postmoder ;)) was intended to take care of all things IG. To my
>>>>>>>>> understanding, this is intended to define and give a legal
>>>>>>>>> basis to the norms and rules, the mechanisms and processes, in
>>>>>>>>> sum, the legitimate authority to deal with relevant public
>>>>>>>>> policy issues pertaining to the others numerous issues of IG.
>>>>>>>>> And so far, there is no assumption on the nature or form of
>>>>>>>>> such authority, except that most of us seems to agree that it
>>>>>>>>> shouldn't be another intergovernmental kind of org. That could
>>>>>>>>> as well be a concentrated, scalable, multi-level structure
>>>>>>>>> where governments may get to make final decisions (again, only
>>>>>>>>> on public policy) but not without accepting external inputs
>>>>>>>>> (technical community, academia, CS, etc.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your understanding seems a lot more narrowly focused than what
>>>>>>>> John proposed in his paper three years ago, which to my
>>>>>>>> knowledge is IGP's only written statement on the matter. And
>>>>>>>> that was just a four page concept paper, more of a teaser than
>>>>>>>> an elaborated proposal. Absent further specification, it's
>>>>>>>> natural that people will differently imagine what it is intended
>>>>>>>> to entail, and differently react to the recurrent suggestion
>>>>>>>> that it could be The Solution. That's why I suggested yesterday
>>>>>>>> to Milton that you guys take the next step and spell it out.
>>>>>>>> Otherwise we'll just go around and around talking past each
>>>>>>>> other.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On your formulation, much of IG broadly defined already has
>>>>>>>> clear legal bases to its norms and rules, and it's not obvious
>>>>>>>> how a FC would relate to and further clarify the disparate bits
>>>>>>>> of national and international law underlying the shared rule
>>>>>>>> systems pertaining to IPR, e-commerce and trade, security,
>>>>>>>> consumer protection, and so on. I'm guessing that you actually
>>>>>>>> mean IG as popularly defined pre-WSIS, i.e. just core resources,
>>>>>>>> and that this is why you found my comment confusing. There are
>>>>>>>> legal bases there too but to the extent they're unclear or
>>>>>>>> problematic I guess the idea is to change them. Fine, but then
>>>>>>>> maybe you should call it an FC on the governance of core
>>>>>>>> resources to avoid further misunderstanding. And spell out what
>>>>>>>> it might look like so people have something concrete to react
>>>>>>>> to, rather than trying to imagine what you all have in mind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>>>>
>>>> ***********************************************************
>>>> William J. Drake drake at hei.unige.ch
>>>> Director, Project on the Information
>>>> Revolution and Global Governance/PSIO
>>>> Graduate Institute for International Studies
>>>> Geneva, Switzerland
>>>> http://hei.unige.ch/psio/researchprojects/Drake.html
>>>> ***********************************************************
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Anriette Esterhuysen, Executive Director
>> Association for Progressive Communications
>> anriette at apc.org
>> http://www.apc.org <http://www.apc.org/>
>> PO Box 29755, Melville, South Africa. 2109
>> Tel. 27 11 726 1692
>> Fax 27 11 726 1692
>>
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