[governance] Netizens and citizens; Was Re: new TLDs?
Ronda Hauben
ronda at panix.com
Tue Aug 30 11:22:05 EDT 2005
Jeanette wrote:
> The fact that women and slaves were excluded makes the polis a
> non-democratic space.
I am not sure what you are saying Jeanette. I hope you will clarify.
I wasn't referring to whether the Greek polis was a democratic space
or not, while you seem to be introducing this as as some criteria to
evaluate the Greek polis of Athens etc.
Instead I was proposing that the level of participation of the population
in the actual decisions of the society is a criteria to consider with
regard to the level of democracy that exists in a society.
I offered the Greek polis of Athens as an example of a time when there was
significant participation of a larger percentage of the population in
the actual processes to make the decisions of the society and in the
actual decisions themselves.
It seems you are saying this is not a criteria of democracy for you.
I only gave the Greek 'polis' example as an example.
> In a similar vein, it seems odd to me to celebrate the "netizen" although
> so many people have no or very restricted access to the net.
A main point of netizens, that Michael discovered in the responses he
received from people who wrote him in 1992/1993 was that they were
dedicated to spreading the Net so that the communication among people that
it made possible would be available to an ever increasing percentage of
the population, eventually to all who wanted access.
What are you saying?
The Internet now reaches a much greater proportion of the population of
the world than in 1992/1993 and those who consider themselves netizens
continue to do what they can to spread access.
That is one of the reasons I feel it is important to recognize the role of
netizens in the continuing development of the N et.
>Avri made this point very clear
I don't understand what point you are referring to or the reasoning you
are referring to.
> I think.
> To me, the netizen reflects an early period of the net when the user
> community was still very homogenous in terms of educational background,
> values and interests. These days are long gone, and the "user" seems to
> me to
> be the more adequate term.
The point of what Michael found in 1992/1993 was that the Net reached many
different places and peoples and it wasn't "homogenous" at all. To the
contrary what people wrote Michael about was that they were meeting people
different from people they had known before via the Net and were
broadening their views of the world and of people.
It is true, that among the people who wrote Michael, there was a social
concern that all be able to have access to the Net and that the Net
not become mainly a "commercial marketplace" but be a communications
infrastructure that continued the wondrous collaborative and interactive
activities that were possible in 1992/1993.
If this is the "homogeneity" you are worried about with regard to the
concept of netizen, then perhaps *you* can justify the reason you don't
want the concept referred to.
But this social concern and the commitment Michael found among the people
he recognized as 'netizens', this 'homogeneity of social purpose' is the
reason I feel it is so important to recognize the emergence on the
Internet of the Netizen and support the continuing spread and development
of netizenship.
Cheers
Ronda
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, Jeanette Hofmann wrote:
>
>
> Ronda Hauben wrote:
>>
>> Jeanette wrote:
>>
>>> The problem with that greek polis concept is that it referred to men only.
>>> Also, it took for granted lots of non-citizens, the slaves who were did
>>> the bread and butter work.
>>
>>
>> Sure there were problems with the greek polis, but a larger percentage of
>> people took part in the governing and the decisions relating to the
>> governing than most other times in the history of so called 'democracy'.
>>
>> So you can find all the problems with the Greek polis that did indeed
>> exist. But whether or not there were these problems, the question
>> remains Were a greater percentage of the population involved in
>> more of the democratic processes than at most other times in the
>> history of so called 'democracy'?
>
> Sorry, Ronda, I don't think this is the point. The fact that women and slaves
> were excluded makes the polis a non-democratic space. In a similar vein, it
> seems odd to me to celebrate the "netizen" although so many people have no or
> very restricted access to the net. Avri made this point very clear I think.
> To me, the netizen reflects an early period of the net when the user
> community was still very homogenous in terms of educational background,
> values and interests. These days are long gone, and the "user" seems to me to
> be the more adequate term.
>
> jeanette
>
>>
>> The participatory nature of the citizenship is the issue I am raising,
>> and the effort in the process of the citizenship to challenge that
>> the small set of others control what was happening in the Greek polis.
>>
>> We can't go back and correct what happened in the Greek polis, but
>> it would be good if we could learn from what was done right.
>>
>> The concept of netizen developed on the Net, as a description of what
>> people who were part of the grassroots of users recognized - they
>> wanted to spread the net to all as a communication infrastructure
>> and would be active doing so.
>>
>>> What makes me feel uncomfortable about the concept of
>>> netizens is that it seems to identify an elite of people on the net.
>>
>>
>> It wasn't an elite, it was a form of social identity.
>>
>> When I got online, 10 people took the trouble to write me to help
>> me to be a contributing part of Net.
>>
>> This process meant led to the desire to give back to the Net once a
>> new person was able.
>>
>> This is some of what has been special about the Internet and its
>> development, and by losing track of that development, and focusing
>> on commercial interests and their needs and claims, this unique and
>> important social development represented by the Internet is lost
>> sight of.
>>
>>> But this is more of a personal impression, nothing I could substantiate.
>>
>>
>> Maybe that is why having a discussion like this can be helpful, as well
>> as trying to not focus on the current moment as the nature of the Net
>> but looking at the vision that made it possible to develop it and how
>> that vision evolved.
>>
>>> jeanette
>>
>>
>> I recently gave a talk as part of a symposium in Beijing on "Computer
>> Networks, the Internet and Netizens: Their Impact on Science and society
>> which was part of the 22nd International History of Science Conference.
>>
>> http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/beijing/talkjuly26.txt
>>
>> I then gave a more specific version of the talk when I went to Seoul, Korea
>> as in Korea there is 80% broadband access and many valuable
>> achievements of people who see themselves as netizens, such as electing the
>> a relatively unknown to become the President of South Korea,
>> through the online discussion and partcipation of many netizens in
>> 2000-2002.
>>
>> Also looking a Michael's article on "The Net and Netizens: the Impact
>> the Net has on People's Lives" may be of interest.
>> http://www.columbia.edu/~rh120/ch106.x01
>>
>> Michael's preface to netizens is also relevant
>> http://www.columbia.edu/~rh120/ch106.xpr
>>
>> This gives a way perhaps to explore what is new and significant about
>> the Internet and its development. That is a basis to begin to determine an
>> appropriate model for the management of the Internet's infrastructure.
>>
>> How the Internet developed and spread around the world is an important
>> piece of knowledge about the Internet.
>>
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Ronda
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Jeanette Hofmann wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ronda Hauben wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The concept of citizen does indeed have a variety of meanings.
>>>>
>>>> And I agree that if one wants to include all users that the term
>>>> 'user' is appropriate.
>>>>
>>>> The Greek polis and the French Revolution both gave birth to a
>>>> more 'exclusive' you might say, but actually more active and
>>>> socially concerned notion of 'citizen'
>>>
>>>
>>> The problem with that greek polis concept is that it referred to men only.
>>> Also, it took for granted lots of non-citizens, the slaves who were did
>>> the bread and butter work. What makes me feel uncomfortable about the
>>> concept of netizens is that it seems to identify an elite of people on the
>>> net. But this is more of a personal impression, nothing I could
>>> substantiate.
>>> jeanette
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> And the Internet helped to give birth to a similar form of 'citizen'
>>>> named 'netizen'.
>>>>
>>>> It would be good for any governance structure to encourage and provide
>>>> for participation by 'users', but especially by 'netizens'. The 'netizen'
>>>> in the sense of the concept that I am referring to is a special product
>>>> of the Internet and its development, and any governance structure would
>>>> benefit from including 'netizens' as an important part of its structure.
>>>>
>>>> In the Greek polis, citizens were trained by being welcomed as part of
>>>> the governance structures. Similarly in the French Revolutionary
>>>> situation. A similar situation has been true in the development of the
>>>> Internet and it would be useful to understand this process and support
>>>> its further development.
>>>>
>>>> Also, understanding and learning from the participatory social
>>>> contributions of netizens in the Internet's development can help to
>>>> determine how to create a management structure for the Internet's
>>>> infrastructure that is based on the models pioneered in the Internet's
>>>> own development.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Ronda
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Jeanette Hofmann wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The present concept of the citizen is very broad. It includes all people
>>>>> no matter whether they care about their country, the people and the
>>>>> constitution or not. The concept of the netizen sounds rather exlusive
>>>>> by comparison. It refers only to those "who care about the net". Not
>>>>> that I mind those/us people but I prefer the term "user" because it is
>>>>> more general and more inclusive. When I use the term user, I emphasize
>>>>> the great variety of those on the Internet.
>>>>>
>>>>> jeanette
>>>>>
>>>>> Ronda Hauben wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> McTim>>> I always liked netizen, couldn't fathom opposition to such an
>>>> McTim>>> innoucuous term, oh well.
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> netizen is the notion of an online citizen - those who care about the
>>>>>> net and do what they can to participate so that the public purpose
>>>>>> is represented, both online and off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the person who recognized that there were users online acting as
>>>>>> netizens (as net.citizens) in 1992/1993 helped to bring a sense
>>>>>> of consciousness to the identity that was then developing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> this is still needed, and there are indeed still many netizens,
>>>>>> in the sense of the term that it was developed in 1992/1993.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> anyone who is interested can look at the online edition of
>>>>>> of the book that helps to explain the concept and and the
>>>>>> relevance to the internet's developement. its online at
>>>>>> http://www.columbia.edu/~rh120
>>>>>>
>>>>>> its also available in a print edition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it would be good to see a broad ranging discussion about netizens and
>>>>>> need for the public interest to be represented in any discussions or
>>>>>> structures related to the management of the internet's infrastructure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ronda
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, McTim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/29/05, Ronda Hauben <ronda at panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So let the discussion open up, don't shut it off please.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Amen to all of the above.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I always liked netizen, couldn't fathom opposition to such an
>>>>>>> innoucuous term, oh well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> McTim
>>>>>>> nic-hdl: TMCG
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> governance mailing list
>>>>>> governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>> https://ssl.cpsr.org/mailman/listinfo/governance
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
_______________________________________________
governance mailing list
governance at lists.cpsr.org
https://ssl.cpsr.org/mailman/listinfo/governance
More information about the Governance
mailing list