[governance] Netizens and citizens; Was Re: new TLDs?

Tue Aug 30 02:54:24 EDT 2005

Ronda Hauben wrote:
> 
> Jeanette wrote:
> 
>> The problem with that greek polis concept is that it referred to men 
>> only. Also, it took for granted lots of non-citizens, the slaves who 
>> were did the  bread and butter work.
> 
> 
> Sure there were problems with the greek polis, but a larger percentage of
> people took part in the governing and the decisions relating to the
> governing than most other times in the history of so called 'democracy'.
> 
> So you can find all the problems with the Greek polis that did indeed 
> exist. But whether or not there were these problems, the question
> remains Were a greater percentage of the population involved in
> more of the democratic processes than at most other times in the
> history of so called 'democracy'?

Sorry, Ronda, I don't think this is the point. The fact that women and 
slaves were excluded makes the polis a non-democratic space. In a 
similar vein, it seems odd to me to celebrate the "netizen" although so 
many people have no or very restricted access to the net. Avri made this 
point very clear I think.
To me, the netizen reflects an early period of the net when the user 
community was still very homogenous in terms of educational background, 
values and interests. These days are long gone, and the "user" seems to 
me to be the more adequate term.

jeanette

> 
> The participatory nature of the citizenship is the issue I am raising,
> and the effort in the process of the citizenship to challenge that
> the small set of others  control what was happening in the Greek polis.
> 
> We can't go back and correct what happened in the Greek polis, but
> it would be good if we could learn from what was done right.
> 
> The concept of netizen developed on the Net, as a description of what
> people who were part of the grassroots of users recognized - they
> wanted to spread the net to all as a communication infrastructure
> and would be active doing so.
> 
>> What makes me feel uncomfortable about the concept of
>> netizens is that it seems to identify an elite of people on the net.
> 
> 
> It wasn't an elite, it was a form of social identity.
> 
> When I got online, 10 people took the trouble to write me to help
> me to be a contributing part of Net.
> 
> This process meant led to the desire to give back to the Net once a
> new person was able.
> 
> This is some of what has been special about the Internet and its 
> development, and by losing track of that development, and focusing
> on commercial interests and their needs and claims, this unique and
> important social development represented by the Internet is lost
> sight of.
> 
>> But this is more of a personal impression, nothing I could substantiate.
> 
> 
> Maybe that is why having a discussion like this can be helpful, as well
> as trying to not focus on the current moment as the nature of the Net
> but looking at the vision that made it possible to develop it and how
> that vision evolved.
> 
>> jeanette
> 
> 
> I recently gave a talk as part of a symposium in Beijing on "Computer 
> Networks, the Internet and Netizens: Their Impact on Science and society
> which was part of the 22nd International History of Science Conference.
> 
> http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/beijing/talkjuly26.txt
> 
> I then gave a more specific version of the talk when I went to Seoul, 
> Korea as in Korea there is 80% broadband access and many valuable
> achievements of people who see themselves as netizens, such as electing 
> the a relatively unknown to become the President of South Korea,
> through the online discussion and partcipation of many netizens in 
> 2000-2002.
> 
> Also looking a Michael's article on "The Net and Netizens: the Impact
> the Net has on People's Lives" may be of interest.
> http://www.columbia.edu/~rh120/ch106.x01
> 
> Michael's preface to netizens is also relevant
> http://www.columbia.edu/~rh120/ch106.xpr
> 
> This gives a way perhaps to explore what is new and significant about
> the Internet and its development. That is a basis to begin to determine 
> an appropriate model for the management of the Internet's infrastructure.
> 
> How the Internet developed and spread around the world is an important
> piece of knowledge about the Internet.
> 
> 
> cheers
> 
> Ronda
> 
> 
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Jeanette Hofmann wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> Ronda Hauben wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The concept of citizen does indeed have a variety of meanings.
>>>
>>> And I agree that if one wants to include all users that the term
>>> 'user' is appropriate.
>>>
>>> The Greek polis and the French Revolution both gave birth to a
>>> more 'exclusive' you might say, but actually more active and
>>> socially concerned notion of 'citizen'
>>
>>
>> The problem with that greek polis concept is that it referred to men 
>> only. Also, it took for granted lots of non-citizens, the slaves who 
>> were did the bread and butter work. What makes me feel uncomfortable 
>> about the concept of netizens is that it seems to identify an elite of 
>> people on the net. But this is more of a personal impression, nothing 
>> I could substantiate.
>> jeanette
> 
> 
> 
>>>
>>> And the Internet helped to give birth to a similar form of 'citizen'
>>> named 'netizen'.
>>>
>>> It would be good for any governance structure to encourage and provide
>>> for participation by 'users', but especially by 'netizens'. The 
>>> 'netizen'
>>> in the sense of the concept that I am referring to is a special 
>>> product of the Internet and its development, and any governance 
>>> structure would benefit from including 'netizens' as an important 
>>> part of its structure.
>>>
>>> In the Greek polis, citizens were trained by being welcomed as part of
>>> the governance structures. Similarly in the French Revolutionary 
>>> situation. A similar situation has been true in the development of 
>>> the Internet and it would be useful to understand this process and 
>>> support
>>> its further development.
>>>
>>> Also, understanding and learning from the participatory social 
>>> contributions of netizens in the Internet's development can help to 
>>> determine how to create a management structure for the Internet's 
>>> infrastructure that is based on the models pioneered in the Internet's
>>> own development.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Ronda
>>>
>>>  On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Jeanette Hofmann wrote:
>>>
>>>> The present concept of the citizen is very broad. It includes all 
>>>> people no matter whether they care about their country, the people 
>>>> and the constitution or not. The concept of the netizen sounds 
>>>> rather exlusive by comparison. It refers only to those "who care 
>>>> about the net". Not that I mind those/us people but I prefer the 
>>>> term "user" because it is more general and more inclusive. When I 
>>>> use the term user, I emphasize the great variety of those on the 
>>>> Internet.
>>>>
>>>> jeanette
>>>>
>>>> Ronda Hauben wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  McTim>>> I always liked netizen, couldn't fathom opposition to such an
>>>  McTim>>> innoucuous term, oh well.
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> netizen is the notion of an online citizen - those who care about the
>>>>> net and do what they can to participate so that the public purpose
>>>>> is represented, both online and off.
>>>>>
>>>>> the person who recognized that there were users online acting as
>>>>> netizens (as net.citizens) in 1992/1993 helped to bring a sense
>>>>> of consciousness to the identity that was then developing.
>>>>>
>>>>> this is still needed, and there are indeed still many netizens,
>>>>> in the sense of the term that it was developed in 1992/1993.
>>>>>
>>>>> anyone who is interested can look at the online edition of
>>>>> of the book that helps to explain the concept and and the
>>>>> relevance to the internet's developement. its online at
>>>>> http://www.columbia.edu/~rh120
>>>>>
>>>>> its also available in a print edition.
>>>>>
>>>>> it would be good to see a broad ranging discussion about netizens 
>>>>> and need for the public interest to be represented in any 
>>>>> discussions or structures related to the management of the 
>>>>> internet's infrastructure.
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> ronda
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, McTim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/29/05, Ronda Hauben <ronda at panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So let the discussion open up, don't shut it off please.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Amen to all of the above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always liked netizen, couldn't fathom opposition to such an
>>>>>> innoucuous term, oh well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> McTim
>>>>>> nic-hdl:      TMCG
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> governance mailing list
>>>>> governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>> https://ssl.cpsr.org/mailman/listinfo/governance
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
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