No subject
Thu Jan 13 08:49:26 EST 2022
ested in the NMI.
I see it is okay if one network or list or platform decides NOT to pa=
rticipate but we cannot ask others not to.
Me, I am in favour of Governance and BB lists nominating people. And at=
the same time, saying that it is important for African S to participate.
All for now
Nnenna
On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS I The Global J=
ournal <jc.nothias at theglobaljournal.net> wrote:
Jeremy,
Thanks for your email.
Looking after pathologies is certainly a noble cause, but as we both =
do not belong to the medical corpus, maybe it would simply be wise to termi=
nate this, and cool down a bit. Even though we are in real politics.
Go after the arguments put on the table is probably of better effect =
and impact.=20
What I wanted to say using quotes from an array of observers or parti=
cipants is that the initiative has more than a troubling set of definitions=
, expectations and leading to an overall confusion. It looks more or less l=
ike "un ch=C3=A8que en blanc" to illegitimate grouping of a wealthy elite (=
the three players of NMI have deep pockets, and friends with deeper pockets=
). I am not even trying to clarify the obvious tactics behind all their ges=
ture. I had an intermezzo as a consultant for 10 years in my life, and can =
more than easily read the partition behind all of that smoking screen. In t=
he army, you always call some troopers from the "g=C3=A9nie" when you need =
a screen of smoke to cross a street, a bridge or a simple line. No, let's s=
tay on what is at stake such as
- why part of civil society in Busan accepted the fact that the US re=
fused to discuss mass surveillance?
- why is the IGF not the best bet for civil society to keep maturing =
and growing?
- why is encryption, I know EFF is working hard on this topic, insuf=
ficiently at the center of the IG debate? Isn't encryption part of the mass=
surveillance issue? So then why to please the US, in Sao Paulo, then in Bu=
san by refusing to really go after it? Mass surveillance has nothing to do =
with IG they told us.
- why civil society not more vocal on the Google Tour against the EU =
decision to protect personal data, considering rightly in my view, that sea=
rch engines are touching at personal data, beyond the simple links they ass=
embled in their result pages? This is a real good debate for CS.
- why not to discuss the IETF and its roles in the IG? More important=
than IANA for example?=20
- why CS seems deprived of imagination and innovative ideas when it c=
omes to create a new coordinating body/system, as the ICANN is saying the p=
olitical aspects of IG is beyond its mandate? How can we help ourselves to =
have these ideas popping out of CS minds? Looking at all the NGOs we are cu=
rrently ranking, I am positively impressed with their innovative abilities,=
much more powerful than classical corps. They also create more "values".
I am not naive, and have probably a few answers in mind. Nevertheless=
, CS should really act differently. The NMI story is relevant of the weakne=
ss that anyone can perceive among CS, and this is not to blame JNC or anyon=
e else. A leadership crisis wrote someone today.
Remember the preparation of Net Mundial? Did the ICANN handle CS in a=
satisfactory fashion? Haven't we seen the trailer? We had to twist their a=
rm every minute to get info, to get principles, to simply get it not that b=
ad. Why is it so difficult for the 'nice guys" not to go directly after the=
right ideas, proposals and suggestions when launching an open, honest, tra=
nsparent debate? Instead they keep creating distrust with their committees,=
high level panel, advisory boards... Trust is critical. "Please energize m=
e! should we all cry. We are all losing. Terrifying, I would say.
So why don't you and other leaders of CS decide to meet, have a debat=
e and launch a true CS initiative, calling governments, citizens and corpor=
ations to join in a effort to rebalance the growing asymmetry we live in si=
nce the mid-nineties? In the face of History, and our fellow citizens, we a=
re failing, because CS is not united. To do that you do not need any WEF. Y=
ou only need to trust, share, and confront the realities that are taking aw=
ay our rights. This is what should be done, now, instead of wasting our tim=
e and little money to debate about the comfortable sofas of the WEF.
Somehow BB is a failure, as it has not delivered to its own mandate. =
JNC is not getting more isolated, it is growing and reaching more and more =
people. We should not care about that. We should care about having a collec=
tive action that would oblige governments, corps and the current mandarins =
to take more progressive steps. Multistakeholderism when it comes to conven=
e and consult many participants is certainly nice. This has often been done=
, long before we began to put in our mouth the MS narrative. When it comes =
to make decisions at least on the public policy level, MS simply doesn't wo=
rk. If the coders had to go through MS to make decision, they would have si=
mply gone nowhere. Only a few guys fixing better than other few guys techni=
cal issues doesn't equate a political model. It could work, but then it wou=
ld lead to some social disaster, a disruption that would unleash violence.
JNC has no monopole of ethics, but because we are poor enough, our bi=
as is somehow limited. We are paid by no government, no corporation, no bar=
ons. We are simple citizens, with a profound democratic concern (to avoid a=
nother asymmetric wars), and we are ready to go into rationales as long as =
we are not characterized as psychotics or lunatics.
There is no way that we can really have a strong impact as civil soci=
ety participants if we do not go after unity. And we all agree that we shou=
ld pay more respect to each others, as long as we do not have hidden agenda=
, and gentle philanthropes putting their money in the debate. That would be=
fair.
JC
Le 18 nov. 2014 =C3=A0 17:55, Jeremy Malcolm a =C3=A9crit :
On Nov 18, 2014, at 1:49 AM, Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS I The Global Jou=
rnal <jc.nothias at theglobaljournal.net> wrote:
I leave to Norbert co-convenor at JNC to answer your first email. O=
n a personal note, I would appreciate you to elaborate about the "dumping o=
n civil society colleagues" you are referring to,
Within the next few days I=E2=80=99m going to write a separate blog p=
ost about this at igfwatch.org, because JNC=E2=80=99s pathologies are off-t=
opic for this list.
The WEF/ICANN/CGIbr project is not in lack of clarity. If I do listen=
to non JNC members:
- Wall Street Journal reporter: "The NetMundial wants to spread Inter=
net Governance more evenly across the developing world". (Ask Drew Fitzgera=
ld about the source for that understanding of what is the WIB Initiative)
Which is roughly opposite to what JNC is saying.
- McCarthy at The Register: "ISOC has blasted efforts from some quart=
ers to create a "UN Security Council=E2=80=9D
A fatuous analogy, do you take it at face value?
- Eileen Donahoe, ... Virgilio Almeida, ... Richard Samans, ... Fadi =
Chehad=C3=A9: ...
None of these statements support the characterisation of the Initiati=
ve as in your letter as =E2=80=9Cbeing =E2=80=99the=E2=80=99 mechanism for =
global [Internet] governance=E2=80=9D.
Based on these official and public statement, I can only read JNC sta=
tement as an interesting analysis and agree with JNC reluctance to particip=
ate or endorse such following-up (hijacking might be to blunt) of the NetMu=
ndial meeting. Nor the WEF, ICANN, or CGIbr are owners of what was stated u=
ltimately in Sao Paulo, with all due reserves by different participants.
I=E2=80=99ve also said, and maintain, that I regard the NETmundial In=
itiative (particularly the naming thereof) to be a hijacking of the NETmund=
ial meeting. On this much we agree.
So instead of trying to grab a comfortable seat in that convoy ... =
should for once, Civil Society ... acknowledges the serious concerns seen i=
n the making of, and in the diverse objectives presented by the WEF, ICANN =
and CGIbr.
Ian has taking a more neutral position, but for my part personally I =
certainly have (http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/netmundial-initiative-=
takes-a-top-down-approach-to-implementing-the-netmundial-principles). What=
prompted my last email was not that JNC opposes the NETmundial Initiative,=
but that it has to do this by impugning the motives of other civil society=
groups and falsely attributing them with their endorsement of the Initiati=
ve.
Also for the avoidance of doubt, nobody else endorsed my rant which w=
as sent in a personal capacity (though I have subsequently received, off li=
st, two emails in support, as well as one against).
By the way, could you explain us (subscribers of the BestBits list):
I do not have time to respond to the rest of your mail right now beca=
use I am speaking at a conference today and will be boarding a flight a few=
hours later. But I write this brief response just because you suggested i=
n most recent mail that I was ignoring you - I=E2=80=99m not. Anyway, othe=
rs can respond to the balance of your questions rather than me monopolising=
the conversation.
--=20
Jeremy Malcolm
Senior Global Policy Analyst
Electronic Frontier Foundation
https://eff.org
jmalcolm at eff.org=20
Tel: 415.436.9333 ext 161
:: Defending Your Rights in the Digital World ::
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
bestbits at lists.bestbits.net.
To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
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____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
bestbits at lists.bestbits.net.
To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:
http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits
--=20
Dr. Anja Kovacs
The Internet Democracy Project
+91 9899028053 | @anjakovacs
www.internetdemocracy.in
____________________________________________________________You received th=
is message as a subscriber on the list: bestbits at lists.bestbits.net.To =
unsubscribe or change your settings, visit: http://lists.bestbits.net/w=
ws/info/bestbits
-- `````````````````````````````````anriette esterhuysenexecutive directora=
ssociation for progressive communicationspo box 29755, melville, 2109, sout=
h africaanriette at apc.orgwww.apc.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
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------=_NextPart_000_0063_01D0050B.CE94ECF0
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charset="utf-8"
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<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=3Dltr>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Thanks Nnenna.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yes, it is disappointing when we cannot tolerate differences of=20
opinion.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Anriette expressed respect for the JNC position, as have many others. =
It=20
would be good if this respect for differing opinions was reciprocated.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The most substantial side effect for civil society discourse when some=
ones=20
personal opinion is attacked rather than respected is that people stop=20
expressing themselves for fear of being attacked. It would be good if we=20
concentrated on issues and arguing points of view. And some voices have alr=
eady=20
been silenced on this issue.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We are not all going to agree on this one. But perhaps we can agree to=
=20
respect differences of opinion. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Anriette has devoted the last 25 or so years of her life to building A=
PC=20
as <FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">=E2=80=9C an internation=
al network and=20
non profit organisation that wants everyone to have access to a free and op=
en=20
internet to improve our lives and create a more just world</FONT>=E2=80=9D.=
No, she is=20
not abandoning the pursuit of social justice.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ian Peter</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; F=
ONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dnnenna75 at gmail.com=
=20
href=3D"mailto:nnenna75 at gmail.com">Nnenna Nwakanma</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 20, 2014 9:26 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dgurstein at gmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">michael gurstein</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Danriette at apc.org=20
href=3D"mailto:anriette at apc.org">Anriette Esterhuysen</A> ; <A=20
title=3Danja at internetdemocracy.in href=3D"mailto:anja at internetdemocracy.in"=
>Anja=20
Kovacs</A> ; <A title=3Dgovernance at lists.igcaucus.org=20
href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">Governance</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dbestbits at lists.bestbits.net href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.=
net">Best=20
Bits</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [bestbits] [governance] Whether to participate in=
=20
NETmundial Initiative - RFC</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; F=
ONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Wow! This "new reality" called Civil Society is beginning to amaze me =
the=20
more. Because someone thinks "Let us give something a shot, it is not perfe=
ct,=20
but it is making an effort" then it is being construed as abandoning the pu=
rsuit=20
of social justice?<BR><BR></DIV>If there was a human being who fought for s=
ocial=20
justice, it was Nelson Mandela. And it is him who said:<BR>"If you wa=
nt to=20
make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becom=
es=20
your partner."<BR><BR></DIV>I will rest my case for=20
now<BR><BR></DIV>Nnenna<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_extra>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 10:13 AM, michael gurstein=
<SPAN=20
dir=3Dltr><<A href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com"=20
target=3D_blank>gurstein at gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1p=
x solid">
<DIV lang=3DEN-US vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue" bgcolor=3D"white">
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f=
497d'>So=20
Anriette, I=E2=80=99m taking from your argument that because the NMI offe=
rs some=20
possibility, however remote for the advancement of human rights, you are=
=20
completely abandoning perhaps irrevocably, the pursuit of social=20
justice.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f=
497d'><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f=
497d'>M<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f=
497d'><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f=
497d'><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER=
-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: =
0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: wind=
owtext'>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; COLOR: wind=
owtext'>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net"=20
target=3D_blank>bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net</A> [mailto:<A=20
href=3D"mailto:bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net"=20
target=3D_blank>bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net</A>] <B>On Behalf Of=
=20
</B>Anriette Esterhuysen<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 19, 2014 11:=
18=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Anja Kovacs; Nnenna Nwakanma<BR><B>Cc:</B> Governance; B=
est=20
Bits<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [bestbits] [governance] Whether to participat=
e in=20
NETmundial Initiative - RFC<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3Dh5>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Dear all<BR><BR>I have been fairly silent on =
this=20
issue and APC is consulting our members about it at present. We have been=
=20
really busy in APC with project meetings, evaluations, planning, and also=
the=20
African School on IG, so apologies for not participating.<BR><BR>Anja, th=
anks=20
for asking for the view of Brazilian colleagues. I have also asked people=
off=20
list and thus far I get the sense that while there are concerns, there is=
also=20
a sense that it is worth giving the process a try.<BR><BR>I felt that the=
the=20
letter that Ian and the CSCG wrote was excellent, and I feel that having =
them=20
in place has put us in a stronger position. I also feel that JNC's=
=20
decision to not be part of the process is legitimate and clear.<BR><BR>I =
do=20
see the pros and cons of participation a bit differently from how Ian had=
put=20
them in an earlier message...perhaps not quite as 'black and white'.<BR><=
BR>My=20
feeling at this point is that some of the strong concerns we expressed at=
the=20
time of the NETmundial Initiative Launch in late August have actually bee=
n=20
addressed.<BR><BR>I don't particularly like the process... I would have l=
iked=20
more transparency and consultation around the redesign of the process and=
its=20
mechanisms.<BR><BR>But I really do care about the NETmundial outcomes, an=
d I=20
believe we should do our best to take it forward, to intergovernmental sp=
aces,=20
at national level, and through the IGF. This might sound pretty nai=
ve to=20
many but I still believe that the only sustainable path to inclusive =
;=20
democratic multistakeholder internet policy and regulation is through clo=
ser=20
connections between multistakeholder and intergovernmental processes and=
=20
mechanisms.<BR><BR>I am at the airport and about to board.. so should be=
=20
fast.<BR><BR>My view would be that civil society participates in the NMI =
with=20
the following:<BR><BR>- a set of indicators and criteriat that are import=
ant=20
to us<BR>- a limited timeframe <BR>- agreed milestones including for a po=
int=20
at which we assess whether we continue or not<BR><BR><BR>My proposal woul=
d be=20
try and make the process work, and to link it closely to the IGF and for =
civil=20
society e.g. at Best Bits meeting to get together prior to the 2015 IGF a=
nd=20
then to assess whether our particpation has had impact, whether we have b=
een=20
able to influence the process and whether it meets the criteria important=
to=20
us.<BR><BR>This is a risk of course. And we could legitimise a process th=
at=20
turns out not to be worthy of it. But I think it is a risk worth ta=
king,=20
and we can always withdraw.<BR><BR>Not trying is a greater risk as it cou=
ld=20
result in the most progressive, to date, agreement on principles that res=
pect=20
human rights inclusive processes in internet governance simply fizzling=20
out. I think that backtracking in that way on what we all achieved=
=20
through the NETmundial would be a huge loss to changing how we think abou=
t,=20
and implement, internet=20
governance.<BR><BR>Anriette<BR><BR></SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>On 19/11/2014 21:59, Anja Kovacs=20
wrote:<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Dear all,<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>A question. If any of the Brazilians on these list=
s could=20
perhaps shed some light on why their government has decided to support =
this=20
initiative, and how they see it, that could possibly be very helpful? I=
have=20
had great respect for Brazil and its work in the past, and can't help b=
ut=20
wonder whether I'm missing something here.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>For the moment, however, knowing what I know, I am=
still=20
not in favour of civil society networks giving this their stamp of appr=
oval=20
(though as earlier, I also don't have an issue with individual organisa=
tions=20
who want to participate to continue doing so and report back to the wid=
er=20
community). A WEF-ICANN alliance, even if backed by the Brazilian=20
government, is just not the place I want to see emerge as a new power c=
entre=20
in Internet governance - even less so as they have already given themse=
lves=20
some fixed seats.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I've in particular been wondering what this select=
ion and=20
committee means seeing that some of the initiatives the NMI would "fost=
er"=20
clearly are already on the way. For example, I (and I know many others =
on=20
this list too) have already been contacted by the Governance Lab at NYU=
to=20
give feedback on a proposed NETmundial Solutions map that would be deve=
loped=20
under the flag of the NMI. It's difficult not to feel like the only thi=
ng we=20
and others would be doing is simply to rubberstamp things that would ha=
ppen=20
anyway - but because we okay them, somehow the structure and the initia=
tives=20
it gives birth to gain a legitimacy that they would not have had withou=
t. An=20
unwise use of our power, I would say (that they would go ahead without =
us=20
anyway is something that a representative from the WEF made clear enoug=
h to=20
me in an informal conversation in October. Some of the individual=20
initiative, such as that map, might have value, but about the structure=
as a=20
whole, I am not so certain) <U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I would feel far more comfortable if we would inst=
ead=20
start exploring the constructive ways of going ahead with our own work=
=20
suggested by Amelia and others. I would love to hear more about what th=
ey're=20
thinking, and how we could operationalize this ourselves and take it=20
forward.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks and best,<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Anja<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>On 19 November 2014 01:12, Nnenna Nwakanma <<A=
=20
href=3D"mailto:nnenna75 at gmail.com" target=3D_blank>nnenna75 at gmail.com</=
A>>=20
wrote:<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">Dear Governance and =
Best Bits=20
listers, and especially African Civil Society members=20
here.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">My opinion is that C=
ivil=20
Society should participate. It is okay to table our "fears" and let NMI=
know=20
that our participation may be withdrawn if XYZ is not met.<BR><BR>I thi=
nk it=20
is fine for certain networks to say "No", but in Africa, I dont think w=
e=20
should miss out.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">NMI may also just ma=
ke a=20
public call for CS who wants to participate. From the launch, I=20
already saw that some CS persons were already very interested in the=20
NMI.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">I see it is okay if =
one=20
network or list or platform decides NOT to participate but =
we=20
cannot ask others not to.<BR><BR>Me, I am in favour of Governance and B=
B=20
lists nominating people. And at the same time, saying that it is import=
ant=20
for African S to participate.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>All for=20
now<BR><BR><SPAN>Nnenna</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Jean-Christophe N=
OTHIAS=20
I The Global Journal <<A href=3D"mailto:jc.nothias at theglobaljournal.=
net"=20
target=3D_blank>jc.nothias at theglobaljournal.net</A>>=20
wrote:<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal=20
style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">Jeremy,<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for your email.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Looking after pathologies is certainly a noble c=
ause,=20
but as we both do not belong to the medical corpus, maybe it would si=
mply=20
be wise to terminate this, and cool down a bit. Even though we are in=
real=20
politics.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Go after the arguments put on the table is proba=
bly of=20
better effect and impact. <U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>What I wanted to say using quotes from an array =
of=20
observers or participants is that the initiative has more than a trou=
bling=20
set of definitions, expectations and leading to an overall confusion.=
It=20
looks more or less like "un ch=C3=A8que en blanc" to illegitimate gro=
uping of a=20
wealthy elite (the three players of NMI have deep pockets, and friend=
s=20
with deeper pockets). I am not even trying to clarify the obvious tac=
tics=20
behind all their gesture. I had an intermezzo as a consultant for 10 =
years=20
in my life, and can more than easily read the partition behind all of=
that=20
smoking screen. In the army, you always call some troopers from the=20
"g=C3=A9nie" when you need a screen of smoke to cross a street, a bri=
dge or a=20
simple line. No, let's stay on what is at stake such=20
as<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>- why part of civil society in Busan accepted th=
e fact=20
that the US refused to discuss mass surveillance?<U></U><U></U></P></=
DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>- why is the IGF not the best bet for civil soci=
ety to=20
keep maturing and growing?<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>- why is encryption, I know EFF is working hard =
on this=20
topic, insufficiently at the center of the IG debate? Isn't=20
encryption part of the mass surveillance issue? So then why to please=
the=20
US, in Sao Paulo, then in Busan by refusing to really go after it? Ma=
ss=20
surveillance has nothing to do with IG they told=20
us.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>- why civil society not more vocal on the Google=
Tour=20
against the EU decision to protect personal data, considering rightly=
in=20
my view, that search engines are touching at personal data, beyond th=
e=20
simple links they assembled in their result pages? This is a real goo=
d=20
debate for CS.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>- why not to discuss the IETF and its roles in t=
he IG?=20
More important than IANA for example? <U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>- why CS seems deprived of imagination and innov=
ative=20
ideas when it comes to create a new coordinating body/system, as the =
ICANN=20
is saying the political aspects of IG is beyond its mandate? How can =
we=20
help ourselves to have these ideas popping out of CS minds? Looking a=
t all=20
the NGOs we are currently ranking, I am positively impressed with the=
ir=20
innovative abilities, much more powerful than classical corps. They a=
lso=20
create more "values".<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I am not naive, and have probably a few answers =
in=20
mind. Nevertheless, CS should really act differently. The NMI story i=
s=20
relevant of the weakness that anyone can perceive among CS, and this =
is=20
not to blame JNC or anyone else. A leadership crisis wrote someone=20
today.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Remember the preparation of Net Mundial? Did the=
ICANN=20
handle CS in a satisfactory fashion? Haven't we seen the trailer? We =
had=20
to twist their arm every minute to get info, to get principles, to si=
mply=20
get it not that bad. Why is it so difficult for the 'nice guys" not t=
o go=20
directly after the right ideas, proposals and suggestions when launch=
ing=20
an open, honest, transparent debate? Instead they keep creating distr=
ust=20
with their committees, high level panel, advisory boards... Trust is=
=20
critical. "Please energize me! should we all cry. We are all losing.=
=20
Terrifying, I would say.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>So why don't you and other leaders of CS decide =
to=20
meet, have a debate and launch a true CS initiative, calling governme=
nts,=20
citizens and corporations to join in a effort to rebalance the growin=
g=20
asymmetry we live in since the mid-nineties? In the face of History, =
and=20
our fellow citizens, we are failing, because CS is not united. To do =
that=20
you do not need any WEF. You only need to trust, share, and confront =
the=20
realities that are taking away our rights. This is what should be don=
e,=20
now, instead of wasting our time and little money to debate about the=
=20
comfortable sofas of the WEF.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Somehow BB is a failure, as it has not delivered=
to its=20
own mandate. JNC is not getting more isolated, it is growing and reac=
hing=20
more and more people. We should not care about that. We should care a=
bout=20
having a collective action that would oblige governments, corps and t=
he=20
current mandarins to take more progressive steps. Multistakeholderism=
when=20
it comes to convene and consult many participants is certainly nice. =
This=20
has often been done, long before we began to put in our mouth the MS=
=20
narrative. When it comes to make decisions at least on the public pol=
icy=20
level, MS simply doesn't work. If the coders had to go through MS to =
make=20
decision, they would have simply gone nowhere. Only a few guys fixing=
=20
better than other few guys technical issues doesn't equate a politica=
l=20
model. It could work, but then it would lead to some social disaster,=
a=20
disruption that would unleash violence.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>JNC has no monopole of ethics, but because we ar=
e poor=20
enough, our bias is somehow limited. We are paid by no government, no=
=20
corporation, no barons. We are simple citizens, with a profound democ=
ratic=20
concern (to avoid another asymmetric wars), and we are ready to go in=
to=20
rationales as long as we are not characterized as psychotics or=20
lunatics.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>There is no way that we can really have a strong=
impact=20
as civil society participants if we do not go after unity. And we all=
=20
agree that we should pay more respect to each others, as long as we d=
o not=20
have hidden agenda, and gentle philanthropes putting their money in t=
he=20
debate. That would be fair.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>JC<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Le 18 nov. 2014 =C3=A0 17:55, Jeremy Malcolm a =
=C3=A9crit=20
:<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR><U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>On Nov 18, 2014, at 1:49 AM, Jean-Christophe NOT=
HIAS I=20
The Global Journal <<A href=3D"mailto:jc.nothias at theglobaljournal.=
net"=20
target=3D_blank>jc.nothias at theglobaljournal.net</A>>=20
wrote:<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I leave to Norbert co-convenor at JNC to answe=
r your=20
first email. On a personal note, I would appreciate you to elaborat=
e=20
about the "dumping on civil society colleagues" you are referring=20
to,<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Within the next few days I=E2=80=99m going to wr=
ite a separate=20
blog post about this at <A href=3D"http://igfwatch.org/"=20
target=3D_blank>igfwatch.org</A>, because JNC=E2=80=99s pathologies a=
re off-topic=20
for this list.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR><U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>The WEF/ICANN/CGIbr project is not in lack of cl=
arity.=20
If I do listen to non JNC members:<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>- Wall Street Journal reporter: "The NetMundial =
wants=20
to spread Internet Governance more evenly across the developing world=
".=20
(Ask Drew Fitzgerald about the source for that understanding of what =
is=20
the WIB Initiative)<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Which is roughly opposite to what JNC is=20
saying.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR><U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>- McCarthy at The Register: "ISOC has blasted ef=
forts=20
from some quarters to create a "UN Security=20
Council=E2=80=9D<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>A fatuous analogy, do you take it at face=20
value?<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR><U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>- Eileen Donahoe, ... Virgilio Almeida, ... Rich=
ard=20
Samans, ... Fadi Chehad=C3=A9: ...<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>None of these statements support the characteris=
ation=20
of the Initiative as in your letter as =E2=80=9Cbeing =E2=80=99the=E2=
=80=99 mechanism for global=20
[Internet] governance=E2=80=9D.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR><U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Based on these official and public statement, I =
can=20
only read JNC statement as an interesting analysis and agree with JNC=
=20
reluctance to participate or endorse such following-up (hijacking mig=
ht be=20
to blunt) of the NetMundial meeting. Nor the WEF, ICANN, or CGIbr are=
=20
owners of what was stated ultimately in Sao Paulo, with all due reser=
ves=20
by different participants.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99ve also said, and maintain, that I reg=
ard the=20
NETmundial Initiative (particularly the naming thereof) to be a hijac=
king=20
of the NETmundial meeting. On this much we agree.<U></U><U></U></P></=
DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>So instead of trying to grab a comfortable sea=
t in=20
that convoy ... should for once, Civil Society ... acknowledges the=
=20
serious concerns seen in the making of, and in the diverse objectiv=
es=20
presented by the WEF, ICANN and=20
CGIbr.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Ian has taking a more neutral position, but for =
my part=20
personally I certainly have (<A=20
href=3D"http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/netmundial-initiative-ta=
kes-a-top-down-approach-to-implementing-the-netmundial-principles"=20
target=3D_blank>http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/netmundial-initi=
ative-takes-a-top-down-approach-to-implementing-the-netmundial-principles</=
A>). =20
What prompted my last email was not that JNC opposes the NETmundial=20
Initiative, but that it has to do this by impugning the motives of ot=
her=20
civil society groups and falsely attributing them with their endorsem=
ent=20
of the Initiative.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Also for the avoidance of doubt, nobody else end=
orsed=20
my rant which was sent in a personal capacity (though I have subseque=
ntly=20
received, off list, two emails in support, as well as one=20
against).<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR><U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>By the way, could you explain us (subscribers of=
the=20
BestBits list):<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I do not have time to respond to the rest of you=
r mail=20
right now because I am speaking at a conference today and will be boa=
rding=20
a flight a few hours later. But I write this brief response jus=
t=20
because you suggested in most recent mail that I was ignoring you - I=
=E2=80=99m=20
not. Anyway, others can respond to the balance of your question=
s=20
rather than me monopolising the=20
conversation.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>-- <U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Jeremy Malcolm<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Senior Global Policy Analyst<U></U><U></U></P></=
DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Electronic Frontier Foundation<U></U><U></U></P>=
</DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><A href=3D"https://eff.org/"=20
target=3D_blank>https://eff.org</A><BR><A href=3D"mailto:jmalcolm at eff=
.org"=20
target=3D_blank>jmalcolm at eff.org</A> <U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Tel: 415.436.9333 ext 161<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>:: Defending Your Rights in the Digital World=20
::<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV></DIV>
<P=20
class=3DMsoNormal>___________________________________________________=
_________<BR>You=20
received this message as a subscriber on the=20
list:<BR> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net"=20
target=3D_blank>bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</A>.<BR>To unsubscribe or=
change=20
your settings, visit:<BR> <A=20
href=3D"http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits"=20
target=3D_blank>http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</A><U></U=
><U></U></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<P=20
class=3DMsoNormal><BR>_________________________________________________=
___________<BR>You=20
received this message as a subscriber on the=20
list:<BR> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net"=20
target=3D_blank>bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</A>.<BR>To unsubscribe or c=
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your settings, visit:<BR> <A=20
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target=3D_blank>http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</A><U></U><=
U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR><BR>-- <U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Dr. Anja Kovacs<BR>The Internet Democracy=20
Project<BR><BR><A href=3D"tel:%2B91%209899028053" target=3D_blank=20
value=3D"+919899028053">+91 9899028053</A> | @anjakovacs<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.internetdemocracy.in/"=20
target=3D_blank>www.internetdemocracy.in</A><U></U><U></U></P></DIV></D=
IV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR><BR><U></U><U></U></P><PRE>_______________=
_____________________________________________<U></U><U></U></PRE><PRE>You r=
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PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR><U></U><U></U></P><PRE>-- <U></U><U></U></PR=
E><PRE>`````````````````````````````````<U></U><U></U></PRE><PRE>anriette e=
sterhuysen<U></U><U></U></PRE><PRE>executive director<U></U><U></U></PRE><P=
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ilto:anriette at apc.org" target=3D_blank>anriette at apc.org</A><U></U><U></U></=
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