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Thu Jan 13 08:49:26 EST 2022


be more inclusive, for public consultation to be introduced where it
does not exist, and to be improved where it does. But we should also
propose and promote new models where policy-making is actually done in
an inclusive MS space.

Anriette


On 06/03/2014 14:02, parminder wrote:
> Joy
>
> You clarify the difference between two positions very well..
>
> So, I understand that, those who want to support the civil society
> statement put on BestBits platform for endorsements hold that non-gov 
> participants(which includes business)should be on the same footing as
> gov participants in terms of actually /*making public *//*policies*//*.
>
> */Fine. There is no room for confusion now.
>
>  I think this is a anti-democratic statement. And oppose it as ever.
>
> Meanwhile, look forward to see actual  models of such policy making,
> which arent there in the mentioned statement, or its accompanying
> statements.
>
> parminder
>
> PS: I did not think it is BestBits statement, as Joy puts it. And Joy
> - or is it someone else from APC - is on the steering committee on
> BB... I hope such mis-statements are avoided, and when pointed out
> withdrawn. Thanks.
>
> /*
> */
> On Thursday 06 March 2014 03:25 PM, joy wrote:
>> As Anriette has already noted - in relation to the APC Charter the
>> full quote in Theme 6.1 is:
>>
>>     Internet governance should be multilateral and democratic, with
>>     the full involvement of governments, the private sector, civil
>>     society and international organisations. No single government
>>     should have a pre-eminent role in relation to international
>>     internet governance.
>>
>> This does not mean that APC thinks that multi-stakeholder processes
>> are not democratic or desirable.  Quite the contrary and APC has been
>> on record in many spaces to support multi-stakeholder processes:
>> these are simply one form of democratic participation. To be fair,
>> the Best Bits submisson cites a range of other documents and says,
>> taken together, certain principles relevant to internet governance
>> can be deduced and should be taken forward into NetMundial, including
>> human rights.
>>
>> I am happy to support the Best Bits submission: i think its 2
>> recommendations  are simple, concise and helpful.
>>
>> It seems the logic of the objections being raised to endorsing the
>> Best Bits submission is along the lines that on the one hand:
>> a) governments alone make public policy including some which is
>> relevant to internet governance
>> b) governments should be on an equal footing with each other when
>> doing so; and
>> c) it follows that non-governmental stakeholders cannot and therefore
>> should not be on an equal footing with governments this role (though
>> they can of course be involved/consulted) .
>>
>> Whereas, the Best Bits submission is premised along the lines that
>> a) governments and multi-stakeholder processes make public policy
>> which is relevant to internet governance
>> b) therefore all stakeholders should be on an equitable footing or
>> parity with each other when doing so;
>>
>> Again, I see no reason not to support the Best Bits submission which
>> simply proposes that whatever internet governance principles
>> NetMundial is considering, equitable multi-stakholder participation
>> and human rights (among others) are relevant to them.
>>
>>
>> Joy
>> Joy
>> On 6/03/2014 9:14 p.m., Anriette Esterhuysen wrote:
>>> Dear all
>>>
>>> Just a clarification here on the APC Internet Rights Charter and the
>>> use of 'multilateral'.
>>>
>>> The full text in Theme 6.1 is:
>>>
>>> "Internet governance should be multilateral and democratic, with the
>>> full involvement of governments, the private sector, civil society
>>> and international organisations. No single government should have a
>>> pre-eminent role in relation to international internet governance."
>>>
>>> When we drafted this text we used 'multilateral' in its dictionary
>>> sense as meaning the involvement of multiple parties and multiple
>>> countries.  We did not mean it in the 'intergovernmental' sense.
>>>
>>> In fact.. the text that follows multilateral and democratic defines
>>> how we understood the term: "with the full involvement of
>>> governments, the private sector, civil society and international
>>> organisations. No single government should have a pre-eminent role
>>> in relation to international internet governance."
>>>
>>> Since then (remember we first drafted the charter in 2001) the term
>>> multilateral has become loaded and is often underestood as meaning
>>> "among governments". It was not our intention to suggest that. But
>>> we certainly did mean that governments should be involved, and that
>>> no one government should dominate - but in the context of the
>>> involvement of other stakeholders too.
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Anriette
>>>
>>>
>>> On 05/03/2014 14:29, parminder wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday 05 March 2014 05:19 PM, parminder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday 05 March 2014 05:09 PM, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
>>>>>> On 5 Mar 2014, at 7:21 pm, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net
>>>>>> <mailto:parminder at itforchange.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And of course, the proposed view to be submitted on 1Net's
>>>>>>> behalf has this all important principle, "Decisions made with
>>>>>>> respect to Internet governance should only be made by bodies
>>>>>>> that allow free and equitable access to all stakeholders at all
>>>>>>> points in the decision-making process." Well of course. Two
>>>>>>> hoots to democracy!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now I shall come to the point, of my comments on the proposed
>>>>>>> submission to NetMundial submitted by Jeremy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I of course support and commend both APC Principles and IRP
>>>>>>> Principles  - which seem the main burden of the submission....
>>>>>>> BUT...
>>>>>>> /*
>>>>>>> *//*Can someone explain me the meaning of "equitable
>>>>>>> multistakeholder participation"*/ and whether it is different
>>>>>>> from what is meant in the above statement from 1Net's survey. If
>>>>>>> so, how.... More precisely, are you seeking that all
>>>>>>> stakeholders, including business reps, have equal part and role
>>>>>>> (as gov reps) in making decisions about public policies. Please
>>>>>>> address this point specifically. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, you picked up on a key point.  There was a discussion of
>>>>>> this on the pad where the text was workshopped, which you can
>>>>>> read for yourself: https://pad.riseup.net/p/IG_principles.  At
>>>>>> various times it was "parity" and "power sharing" before it
>>>>>> became "equitable participation", which is somewhat flexible, to
>>>>>> accommodate the different viewpoints that we all have about how
>>>>>> equal the stakeholder roles should be.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I dont greatly like flexibility between democracy and non-democracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, request a clear response - do you mean /*parity*/ in
>>>>> /*decision making*/ about /*public policies */between gov and non
>>>>> gov actors.... 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is important to note that the two main Principles docs that this
>>>> CS contribution refers to speak of democracy but not
>>>> multistakeholder governance, much less 'equitable MSism'..
>>>>
>>>> In fact the APC Principles doc speaks of "The right to multilateral
>>>> democratic oversight of the Internet. Internet governanceshould be
>>>> multilateral and democratic. "
>>>>
>>>> Obviously, what is the main, unique, and new element in this
>>>> present submission - equitable multistakeholder participation -
>>>> does not come from the 2 key docs which are claimed to be the
>>>> principle inspirations.
>>>>
>>>> Ok, lets next check the 3 other principles docs that are also
>>>> quoted as somewhat secondary inspirations - CGI.Br Principles, CoE
>>>> principles, and G 8 principles....
>>>>
>>>> In these principles docs, while all f them orepeatedly and
>>>> emphatically speak of democracy, the MS  (multistakeholder) term
>>>> either does not figure (CGI.Br doc) or comes in a much much
>>>> subsidiary fashion wrt to democracy (the other two docs)
>>>>
>>>> Now, lets see what does your contribution - developed by civil
>>>> society actors in IG space - come up with .....
>>>>
>>>> There is not a single mention of 'democracy' or 'democratic' in
>>>> this doc.... Even when you guys came up with "key governance
>>>> characteristics" you could think only of " openness, transparency,
>>>> inclusivity, accountability, and /*equitable multistakeholder
>>>> participation */" (emphasis added)
>>>>
>>>> In all your f2f meetings, and long online deliberations, did the
>>>> word 'democracy'  not occur to any one at all... Or did it occur to
>>>> someone and was contributed but did not find favour in the
>>>> group.... Dont know which is worse. But both are bad enough for me
>>>> to stay away from this doc.
>>>>
>>>> And I appeal also to others who really believe in democracy not to
>>>> get caught in this trap that is laid for them.... This is the thin
>>>> end of the wedge, which will soon usher you into a brave new post
>>>> democratic world, that one which the neo liberals dream of.... It
>>>> is a pity that a good part of civil society has agreed to be the
>>>> Trojan Horse for the powerful warriors of the neolib order.
>>>>
>>>> See, how the term democracy is rejected, and phrases like equitable
>>>> multistakeholder participation (further explained in the emerging
>>>> contribution from 1 Net - principle 11 in the survey) are getting
>>>> introduced as basis of our governance. And see how exactly it
>>>> matches what some of us predicted is the prime objective at present
>>>> of the US supported status quoists to get into the text of the
>>>> outcomes from NetMundial...... All of piece.
>>>>
>>>> parminder
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> And this is not a petty point... Half of the time of the WGEC got
>>>>> taken on this kind of discussion. This is the single most
>>>>> important point today, if we can clarify nd possibly agree on this
>>>>> point - rest is not too difficult... Lets accept what is the key
>>>>> point, and not skirt it...
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, the German government has the following to say in its
>>>>> submission to NetMundial
>>>>>
>>>>> "Democratically elected governments, as the representative of the
>>>>> people, possess public authority including internet-related public
>>>>> policy issues and are supposed to be the main source for
>>>>> legitimacy and democratic legitimation. Hence they have to respect
>>>>> and protect human rights, ensure that the rule of law is respected
>>>>> and that relevant national legislation complies with their
>>>>> obligations under international law. Moreover, they need to ensure
>>>>> that the appropriate basic conditions both in terms of
>>>>> cyber-security and technical provisions are in place. Civil
>>>>> society serves, and should continue to do so, as a facilitator and
>>>>> notably as a source of empowerment and credibility, especially at
>>>>> community level. The private sector and particularly the technical
>>>>> community significantly influence and encourage the development,
>>>>> distribution and accessibility of the internet, and should
>>>>> continue to do so. In order to fully live up to the potentials for
>>>>> economic growth, innovation, freedom of expression, access to
>>>>> information and ideas and democratic participation in a knowledge
>>>>> society, all stakeholders involved need to work together."
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you for instance agree to the above formulation, or NOT...
>>>>>
>>>>> parminder
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jeremy Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B Com
>>>>>> Internet lawyer, ICT policy advocate, geek
>>>>>> host -t NAPTR 5.9.8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.e164.org
>>>>>> <http://e164.org>|awk -F! '{print $3}'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WARNING: This email has not been encrypted. You are strongly
>>>>>> recommended to enable encryption at your end. For instructions,
>>>>>> see http://jere.my/l/pgp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> anriette esterhuysen anriette at apc.org
>>> executive director, association for progressive communications
>>> www.apc.org
>>> po box 29755, melville 2109
>>> south africa
>>> tel/fax +27 11 726 1692
>>
>

-- 
------------------------------------------------------
anriette esterhuysen anriette at apc.org
executive director, association for progressive communications
www.apc.org
po box 29755, melville 2109
south africa
tel/fax +27 11 726 1692


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    <font face="Arial">Dear all<br>
      <br>
      I think it is not so clear cut.<br>
      <br>
      We live in a time of governance processes changing, and we have
      opportunities to make them more democratic.<br>
      <br>
      I recently had a discussion with someone in the government of
      Brazil who is very active in CGI.br.<br>
      <br>
      I asked him whether CGI.br is a platform for policy shaping (to
      use Jovan's term) or policy making.  My understanding was that it
      was primarily for policy shaping.<br>
      <br>
      He said I was wrong, and that it is in fact a multi-stakeholder
      body that can make certain types of policies.  Members of CGI.br
      on these lists can give examples.<br>
      <br>
      CGI.br is a formally constituted (by act of the legislature) body
      that is multi-stakeholder, and that can make certain types of
      public policies, as well as make recommendations for public
      policies.<br>
      <br>
      Membership of CGI.br is of course not informal - it is quite formal,
      but it is multi-stakeholder.<br>
      <br>
      Government has more positions which is something I have heard some
      Brazilian civil society express concern about. But it does mean
      that different parts of government is represented which his
      important. Business is represented through industry bodies, and so
      on.<br>
      <br>
      It is an example of how governance processes can change, and how
      public policy making can be more inclusive and multi-stakeholder
      and go beyond the traditional 'government proposes policy - with
      or without public consulation, follwed by legislature reviewing
      and approving/rejecting'.<br>
      <br>
      From a CS perspective I think we need to lobby for traditional
      models to be more inclusive, for public consultation to be
      introduced where it does not exist, and to be improved where it
      does. But we should also propose and promote new models where
      policy-making is actually done in an inclusive MS space.<br>
      <br>
      Anriette<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/03/2014 14:02, parminder wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:531863E1.7030705 at itforchange.net" type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <font face="Verdana">Joy<br>
        <br>
        You clarify the difference between two positions very well..<br>
        <br>
        So, I understand that, those who want to support the civil
        society statement put on BestBits platform for endorsements hold
        that non-gov  participants</font><font face="Verdana">(which
        includes business)</font><font face="Verdana"> should be on the
        same footing as gov participants in terms of actually <i><b>making

            public </b></i><i><b>policies</b></i><i><b>.<br>
            <br>
          </b></i>Fine. There is no room for confusion now.<br>
        <br>
         I think this is a anti-democratic statement. And oppose it as
        ever.<br>
        <br>
        Meanwhile, look forward to see actual  models of such policy
        making, which arent there in the mentioned statement, or its
        accompanying statements.<br>
        <br>
        parminder<br>
        <br>
        PS: I did not think it is BestBits statement, as Joy puts it.
        And Joy - or is it someone else from APC - is on the steering
        committee on BB... I hope such mis-statements are avoided, and
        when pointed out withdrawn. Thanks. <br>
        <br>
        <i><b><br>
          </b></i></font>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 06 March 2014 03:25 PM,
        joy wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote cite="mid:5318460E.7080301 at apc.org" type="cite">
        <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
          http-equiv="Content-Type">
        As Anriette has already noted - in relation to the APC Charter
        the full quote in Theme 6.1 is:<br>
        <blockquote>Internet governance should be multilateral and
          democratic, with the full involvement of governments, the
          private sector, civil society and international organisations.
          No single government should have a pre-eminent role in
          relation to international internet governance.<br>
        </blockquote>
        This does not mean that APC thinks that multi-stakeholder
        processes are not democratic or desirable.  Quite the contrary
        and APC has been on record in many spaces to support
        multi-stakeholder processes: these are simply one form of
        democratic participation. To be fair, the Best Bits submisson
        cites a range of other documents and says, taken together,
        certain principles relevant to internet governance can be
        deduced and should be taken forward into NetMundial, including
        human rights.<br>
        <br>
        I am happy to support the Best Bits submission: i think its 2
        recommendations  are simple, concise and helpful.<br>
        <br>
        It seems the logic of the objections being raised to endorsing
        the Best Bits submission is along the lines that on the one
        hand:<br>
        a) governments alone make public policy including some which is
        relevant to internet governance<br>
        b) governments should be on an equal footing with each other
        when doing so; and <br>
        c) it follows that non-governmental stakeholders cannot and
        therefore should not be on an equal footing with governments
        this role (though they can of course be involved/consulted) .<br>
        <br>
        Whereas, the Best Bits submission is premised along the lines
        that <br>
        a) governments and multi-stakeholder processes make public
        policy which is relevant to internet governance<br>
        b) therefore all stakeholders should be on an equitable footing
        or parity with each other when doing so; <br>
        <br>
        Again, I see no reason not to support the Best Bits submission
        which simply proposes that whatever internet governance
        principles NetMundial is considering, equitable multi-stakholder
        participation and human rights (among others) are relevant to
        them. <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        Joy<br>
        Joy<br>
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/03/2014 9:14 p.m., Anriette
          Esterhuysen wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote cite="mid:53182E74.5060401 at apc.org" type="cite">
          <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
            http-equiv="Content-Type">
          <font face="Arial">Dear all<br>
            <br>
            Just a clarification here on the APC Internet Rights Charter
            and the use of 'multilateral'.<br>
            <br>
          </font>The full text in Theme 6.1 is:<br>
          <br>
          "Internet governance should be multilateral and democratic,
          with the full involvement of governments, the private sector,
          civil society and international organisations. No single
          government should have a pre-eminent role in relation to
          international internet governance."<br>
          <br>
          When we drafted this text we used 'multilateral' in its
          dictionary sense as meaning the involvement of multiple
          parties and multiple countries.  We did not mean it in the
          'intergovernmental' sense.<br>
          <br>
          In fact.. the text that follows multilateral and democratic
          defines how we understood the term: "with the full involvement
          of governments, the private sector, civil society and
          international organisations. No single government should have
          a pre-eminent role in relation to international internet
          governance."<br>
          <br>
          Since then (remember we first drafted the charter in 2001) the
          term multilateral has become loaded and is often underestood
          as meaning "among governments". It was not our intention to
          suggest that. But we certainly did mean that governments
          should be involved, and that no one government should dominate
          - but in the context of the involvement of other stakeholders
          too.<br>
          <br>
          Best<br>
          <br>
          Anriette<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05/03/2014 14:29, parminder
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote cite="mid:531718AC.3040402 at itforchange.net"
            type="cite">
            <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
              http-equiv="Content-Type">
            <br>
            <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Wednesday 05 March 2014
              05:19 PM, parminder wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote cite="mid:53170F61.60305 at itforchange.net"
              type="cite">
              <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
                http-equiv="Content-Type">
              <br>
              <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Wednesday 05 March 2014
                05:09 PM, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote
                cite="mid:2E3D5FD7-A108-4A16-977A-2650F624CA82 at Malcolm.id.au"
                type="cite">
                <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
                  charset=UTF-8">
                On 5 Mar 2014, at 7:21 pm, parminder <<a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>>





                wrote:<br>
                <div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"
                      style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                      font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
                      font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                      line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                      start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                      white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                      0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">And of
                      course, the proposed view to be submitted on
                      1Net's behalf has this all important principle,
                      "Decisions made with respect to Internet
                      governance should only be made by bodies that
                      allow free and equitable access to all
                      stakeholders at all points in the decision-making
                      process." Well of course. Two hoots to democracy!<br>
                      <br>
                      Now I shall come to the point, of my comments on
                      the proposed submission to NetMundial submitted by
                      Jeremy.<br>
                      <br>
                      I of course support and commend both APC
                      Principles and IRP Principles  - which seem the
                      main burden of the submission.... BUT...<br>
                      <i><b><br>
                        </b></i><i><b>Can someone explain me the meaning
                          of "equitable multistakeholder participation"</b></i><span
                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and
                      whether it is different from what is meant in the
                      above statement from 1Net's survey. If so, how....
                      More precisely, are you seeking that all
                      stakeholders, including business reps, have equal
                      part and role (as gov reps) in making decisions
                      about public policies. Please address this point
                      specifically.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Yes, you picked up on a key point.  There was a
                    discussion of this on the pad where the text was
                    workshopped, which you can read for yourself: <a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="https://pad.riseup.net/p/IG_principles">https://pad.riseup.net/p/IG_principles</a>.
                     At various times it was "parity" and "power
                    sharing" before it became "equitable participation",
                    which is somewhat flexible, to accommodate the
                    different viewpoints that we all have about how
                    equal the stakeholder roles should be.</div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <br>
              <br>
              I dont greatly like flexibility between democracy and
              non-democracy. <br>
              <br>
              So, request a clear response - do you mean <i><b>parity</b></i>
              in <i><b>decision making</b></i> about <i><b>public
                  policies </b></i>between gov and non gov actors.... </blockquote>
            <br>
            <br>
            It is important to note that the two main Principles docs
            that this CS contribution refers to speak of democracy but
            not multistakeholder governance, much less 'equitable
            MSism'..<br>
            <br>
            In fact the APC Principles doc speaks of "<font
              face="sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 11pt" size="3">The

                right to multilateral democratic oversight of the
                Internet. Internet governance</font></font><font
              face="sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 11pt" size="3">
                should be multilateral and democratic.</font></font>
            <title></title>
            <meta name="GENERATOR" content="LibreOffice 3.5 (Linux)">
            <style type="text/css">
	<!--
		@page { margin: 2cm }
		P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm }
	-->
	</style>"<br>
            <br>
            Obviously, what is the main, unique, and new element in this
            present submission - equitable multistakeholder
            participation - does not come from the 2 key docs which are
            claimed to be the principle inspirations.<br>
            <br>
            Ok, lets next check the 3 other principles docs that are
            also quoted as somewhat secondary inspirations - CGI.Br
            Principles, CoE principles, and G 8 principles....<br>
            <br>
            In these principles docs, while all f them orepeatedly and
            emphatically speak of democracy, the MS  (multistakeholder)
            term either does not figure (CGI.Br doc) or comes in a much
            much subsidiary fashion wrt to democracy (the other two
            docs)<br>
            <br>
            Now, lets see what does your contribution - developed by
            civil society actors in IG space - come up with .....<br>
            <br>
            There is not a single mention of 'democracy' or 'democratic'
            in this doc.... Even when you guys came up with "key
            governance characteristics" you could think only of "
            openness, transparency, inclusivity, accountability, and <i><b>equitable


                multistakeholder participation </b></i>" (emphasis
            added)<br>
            <br>
            In all your f2f meetings, and long online deliberations, did
            the word 'democracy'  not occur to any one at all... Or did
            it occur to someone and was contributed but did not find
            favour in the group.... Dont know which is worse. But both
            are bad enough for me to stay away from this doc. <br>
            <br>
            And I appeal also to others who really believe in democracy
            not to get caught in this trap that is laid for them....
            This is the thin end of the wedge, which will soon usher you
            into a brave new post democratic world, that one which the
            neo liberals dream of.... It is a pity that a good part of
            civil society has agreed to be the Trojan Horse for the
            powerful warriors of the neolib order. <br>
            <br>
            See, how the term democracy is rejected, and phrases like
            equitable multistakeholder participation (further explained
            in the emerging contribution from 1 Net - principle 11 in
            the survey) are getting introduced as basis of our
            governance. And see how exactly it matches what some of us
            predicted is the prime objective at present of the US
            supported status quoists to get into the text of the
            outcomes from NetMundial...... All of piece.<br>
            <br>
            parminder<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <blockquote cite="mid:53170F61.60305 at itforchange.net"
              type="cite">And this is not a petty point... Half of the
              time of the WGEC got taken on this kind of discussion.
              This is the single most important point today, if we can
              clarify nd possibly agree on this point - rest is not too
              difficult... Lets accept what is the key point, and not
              skirt it...<br>
              <br>
              BTW, the German government has the following to say in its
              submission to NetMundial<br>
              <br>
              "Democratically elected governments, as the representative
              of the people, possess public authority including
              internet-related public policy issues and are supposed to
              be the main source for legitimacy and democratic
              legitimation. Hence they have to respect and protect human
              rights, ensure that the rule of law is respected and that
              relevant national legislation complies with their
              obligations under international law. Moreover, they need
              to ensure that the appropriate basic conditions both in
              terms of cyber-security and technical provisions are in
              place. Civil society serves, and should continue to do so,
              as a facilitator and notably as a source of empowerment
              and credibility, especially at community level. The
              private sector and particularly the technical community
              significantly influence and encourage the development,
              distribution and accessibility of the internet, and should
              continue to do so. In order to fully live up to the
              potentials for economic growth, innovation, freedom of
              expression, access to information and ideas and democratic
              participation in a knowledge society, all stakeholders
              involved need to work together."<br>
              <br>
              Do you for instance agree to the above formulation, or
              NOT...<br>
              <br>
              parminder <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <blockquote
                cite="mid:2E3D5FD7-A108-4A16-977A-2650F624CA82 at Malcolm.id.au"
                type="cite">
                <div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div apple-content-edited="true">
                  <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing:
                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
                    text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                    -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
                    break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                    -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
                    <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing:
                      normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
                      text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                      white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                      0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
                      break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                      -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
                      <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing:
                        normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
                        text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                        white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                        0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
                        break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                        -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
                        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
                          Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant:
                          normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                          normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;
                          text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
                          break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                          -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
                          <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
                            Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant:
                            normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                            normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;
                            text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
                            text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                            widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
                            -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
                            break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                            -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span
                              class="Apple-style-span"
                              style="border-collapse: separate; color:
                              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
                              font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
                              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                              normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;
                              text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
                              0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
                              normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
                              border-spacing: 0px;
                              -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
                              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
                              <div style="font-size: 12px; text-align:
                                -webkit-auto; word-wrap: break-word;
                                -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                                -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span
                                  class="Apple-style-span"
                                  style="border-collapse: separate;
                                  border-spacing: 0px;">
                                  <div style="word-wrap: break-word;
                                    -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                                    -webkit-line-break:
                                    after-white-space;">
                                    <div>--</div>
                                    <div>Jeremy Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B
                                      Com</div>
                                    <div>Internet lawyer, ICT policy
                                      advocate, geek</div>
                                    <div>host -t NAPTR
                                      5.9.8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="http://e164.org">e164.org</a>|awk




                                      -F! '{print $3}'</div>
                                  </div>
                                </span><br
                                  class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                              </div>
                              WARNING: This email has not been
                              encrypted. You are strongly recommended to
                              enable encryption at your end. For
                              instructions, see <a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="http://jere.my/l/pgp">http://jere.my/l/pgp</a>.</span></div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <br>
              </blockquote>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
------------------------------------------------------
anriette esterhuysen <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anriette at apc.org">anriette at apc.org</a>
executive director, association for progressive communications
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.apc.org">www.apc.org</a>
po box 29755, melville 2109
south africa
tel/fax +27 11 726 1692</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
------------------------------------------------------
anriette esterhuysen <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anriette at apc.org">anriette at apc.org</a>
executive director, association for progressive communications
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.apc.org">www.apc.org</a>
po box 29755, melville 2109
south africa
tel/fax +27 11 726 1692</pre>
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