No subject
Thu Jan 13 08:49:26 EST 2022
related significant structures of accountability so it can=E2=80=99t handle=
even the most insignificant of challenges without some form of full on off=
ensive/defensive onslaught or it simply ignores the issue and moves on. Nor=
can it handle even the most inconsequential of divergences/diversities of =
opinion=E2=80=94the drive towards convergence/consensus (and the associated=
processes of marginalization and exclusion) are terrifying to me if there =
were any real chance of scaling. In the last century we had a lot of exper=
ience (and several names) for political systems that couldn=E2=80=99t deal =
with challenge, divergence, conflict and insisted on a managed consensus an=
d forced choices =E2=80=9Cor else=E2=80=A6=20
=20
Democracy and multi-lateralism both have many many flaws but they have both=
taken us a considerable distance down roads that allow us to be where we a=
re now and thinking about significant and desirable ways forward into much =
more complex decision environments. Moreover we now have (the possibility o=
f using) new tools to support the extending of democratic capabilities, the=
broader inclusion of diversities, the extension of opportunities for effec=
tive participation to previously marginalized populations.
=20
I see absolutely no reason for civil society to be uncritically supporting =
MSism as is obviously currently the case. To my mind this goes against ever=
ything that CS has traditionally stood for=E2=80=94the broadening and deepe=
ning of accountability in support of the public good, the strengthening of =
democracy including through its extension to the poor and marginalized, the=
developing of public processes and methods to control the unaccountable us=
e of private power in opposition to the public interest.=20
=20
MSism is in its essence a form of privatization of power=E2=80=94shifting o=
f power from the hands of people (however flawed that might be) to the hand=
s of those who for the most part are unaccountable and non-transparent in t=
heir actions, their internal operations and in their structures.
=20
I would love to see some demonstration that I am wrong or that I=E2=80=99ve=
missed something but another round of =E2=80=9Ctrust them/us=E2=80=9D is n=
ot going to cut it.
=20
Mike
=20
=20
=20
From: Andrew Puddephatt [mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org]=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 6:14 PM
To: michael gurstein; governance at lists.igcaucus.org; 'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'par=
minder'
Cc: bestbits at lists.bestbits.net
Subject: Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launc=
hed for endorsement at bestbits.net
=20
Michael
=20
Those of us less clever than you are trying to figure out how to make gover=
nance of a global system more equitable and transparent and accountable. C=
learly we failed.
=20
Can you explain to me how an international inter state process is democrati=
c, assuming that is what you believe (and if not what is your democratic al=
ternative to the submissions on BB?). How are my interests represented by =
inter state discussions, or those of Chinese or Russian citizens, or women =
in Saudi Arabia or Canadian academics?=20
=20
=20
=20=20
=20
From: michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
Reply-To: michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 23:57
To: "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Jeremy=
Malcolm <Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au>, "parminder at itforchange.net" <parminder at itf=
orchange.net>
Cc: "<bestbits at lists. net <mailto:bestbits at lists.%20net> >" <bestbits at lists=
.bestbits.net>
Subject: RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launc=
hed for endorsement at bestbits.net
=20
I see, so in your world democracy (however flawed), is to be replaced by Mu=
ltistakeholderism where there is no (evident) transparency (T) or accountab=
ility (A) for the inputs into the stakeholder processes, no (evident) T or =
A for the outputs of the stakeholder processes and the stakeholders themse=
lves are subject to no effective T or A since they are some sort of (interg=
lalactic?) shapeshifters errr=E2=80=A6 those with =E2=80=9Crole flexibiliti=
es=E2=80=9D.
=20
Have I missed something here?
=20
This may work for a Wizard of Oz space like 1Net where even as the curtain =
gets repeatedly bunched up revealing the (=E2=80=9Cnon-existent=E2=80=9D=E2=
=80=94we have it on the highest possible authority=E2=80=94trust us) wizard=
pulling the strings and T & A appears to consist of repeated choruses of =
=E2=80=9Ctrust them it will get better=E2=80=9D by a fawning self-selected =
=E2=80=9CSteering Committee=E2=80=9D, but surely in our world we might expe=
ct something with a slightly higher reality component.
=20
M
=20
From:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists=
.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Malcolm
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 4:21 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; parminder
Cc: <,bestbits at lists.bestbits.net <mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>>=
>,
Subject: Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launc=
hed for endorsement at bestbits.net
=20
On 5 Mar 2014, at 7:49 pm, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
So, request a clear response - do you mean parity in decision making about =
public policies between gov and non gov actors.... And this is not a petty =
point... Half of the time of the WGEC got taken on this kind of discussion.=
This is the single most important point today, if we can clarify nd possib=
ly agree on this point - rest is not too difficult... Lets accept what is t=
he key point, and not skirt it...
=20
Different people who contributed to the submission, even if they all endors=
e the final result, will probably give you different answers to that questi=
on. I'm not sure that anyone is interested in what my personal answer is b=
ecause I'm just an individual, but I would say no I do not accept as a gene=
ral proposition that parity in decision making is appropriate, which is why=
I personally objected to that language being used.
=20
For some issues, it will be appropriate that the stakeholders act as equals=
in the decision making process (to the extent that there is a "decision" a=
t all). In other areas, it won't be appropriate and may be more appropriat=
e that although all stakeholders are involved, one of them will legitimatel=
y take a bigger role than the others. For example governments may take a l=
eading role in transnational human rights disputes, the technical community=
may do so in developing spam filtering standards, civil society may do so =
in developing human rights based principles for judging government surveill=
ance practices, and even the private sector may do so, say in setting price=
s for the trading of IPv4 addresses.
=20
This also implies that the appropriate mechanism of governance may differ i=
n each case, eg. laws, standards, markets. The above all follows naturally=
if you accept that there are no fixed stakeholder roles, because the appro=
priate roles will differ depending on the circumstances.
BTW, the German government has the following to say in its submission to Ne=
tMundial
...
Do you for instance agree to the above formulation, or NOT...
=20
Nope, don't agree with the German government's formulation because it maint=
ains the fallacy of fixed stakeholder roles.
=20
--
Jeremy Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B Com
Internet lawyer, ICT policy advocate, geek
host -t NAPTR 5.9.8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.e164.org|awk -F! '{print $3}'
=20
WARNING: This email has not been encrypted. You are strongly recommended to=
enable encryption at your end. For instructions, see http://jere.my/l/pgp.
=20
=20
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks fo=
r the pointer=E2=80=A6 I did in fact comment on a much earlier version (as =
circulated as part of a larger email by, I believe Matthew, but this is a g=
ood place to begin a useful discussion I think.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Reading your contribution I=E2=80=99m left with more questions than answ=
ers I=E2=80=99m afraid..<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph s=
tyle=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4=
97D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New=
Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif=
]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
#1F497D'>What are the details for the formation/determination of =E2=80=9Cs=
takeholders=E2=80=9D=E2=80=94do they pursue their interests/stakes or do th=
ey pursue the public good<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><![i=
f !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.<span style=3D'fo=
nt:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></s=
pan></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>How are divergent interests/conflicts within st=
akeholder groups handled<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><![if=
!supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.<span style=3D'fon=
t:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></s=
pan><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1F497D'>Is this transparent<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 le=
vel2 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>c.<s=
pan style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> &n=
bsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>What are the accountability mech=
anisms here<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margi=
n-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><![if !supportList=
s]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>d.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Time=
s New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>Who/how is =E2=80=9Clegitimacy=E2=80=9D accorded/denied=E2=80=94by =
what authority<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'ma=
rgin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><![if !supportL=
ists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";co=
lor:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>e.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "T=
imes New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![end=
if]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo=
r:#1F497D'>Who gives legitimacy to the legitimizers<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lf=
o1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span sty=
le=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </=
span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Decision making processes=E2=80=94i.e. =
how are divergent interests/conflicts between stakeholders handled <o:p></o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-i=
ndent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span sty=
le=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> =
; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>who =
gets to deny consensus and how can we be at all certain that the result is =
in the public interest=E2=80=94<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListPara=
graph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1=
'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.<span style=
=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></s=
pan></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>can/should those with specific private interest=
s be in a position to deny consensus/force consensus on their terms (Parmin=
der=E2=80=99s point about the private sector being equal with governments i=
n making decisions) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=
=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><![if !su=
pportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-ser=
if";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>c.<span style=3D'font:7.=
0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><=
/span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'>Is there an artificial drive to a forced consensus<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;=
text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><sp=
an style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>d.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'=
> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Can =
private interests drive decisions and what is to prevent this<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:=
-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'=
mso-list:Ignore'>e.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>  =
; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Is there such a t=
hing as =E2=80=9Cconflict of interest=E2=80=9D=E2=80=94who is responsible f=
or this=E2=80=94how is it policed, sanctions<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><!=
[if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style=3D'=
font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span><=
/span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>How to ensure true diversity of opinion inclu=
ding among those who challenge the way in which the issues are framed=E2=80=
=94diversity of =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2=80=9D is relatively easy, normative di=
versity is rather more difficult to achieve and handle <o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span=
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>  =
; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>How is the very real danger of capt=
ure guarded against<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=
=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>5.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Rom=
an"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4=
97D'>What would be the process of deepening participation/consultation<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p=
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:#1F497D'>These are things that occur to me off the top.. I=
could elaborate on any of these questions as might be useful.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><=
o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid =
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Andrew Pu=
ddephatt [mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 0=
5, 2014 10:36 PM<br><b>To:</b> parminder; michael gurstein; governance at list=
s.igcaucus.org; 'Jeremy Malcolm'<br><b>Cc:</b> bestbits at lists.bestbits.net<=
br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submiss=
ions launched for endorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black=
'>Assuming we=E2=80=99re genuinely trying to understand each other=E2=80=99=
s positions, my views on the short comings of the current system and propos=
als to move the debate forward are expressed in the submission to Netmundia=
l<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>At <a href=
=3D"http://bestbits.net/netmundial-roadmap/">http://bestbits.net/netmundial=
-roadmap/</a> which was available for comment for a month or more on =
the BB list =E2=80=93 (without anyone providing substantial comments except=
for Marilia). It sets out my take on the issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:black'>I think that achieving a democratic approach to inter=
net governance is enormously challenging and this is the best option of tho=
se practically available. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:black'>Where I think we disagree is that I think you believe governments s=
hould in the end, make the final decisions about the internet as they are t=
he sole source of legitimacy (please correct me if I misunderstand you). &n=
bsp; I think this would be catastrophic for the internet's ability to promo=
te free speech and open communication. I look at the Human Rig=
hts Council =E2=80=93 occasionally chaired by some of the most hostile gove=
rnments to human rights and see that it has often been catastrophic t=
o human rights . <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Nor=
do I see your distinction between government and business =E2=80=93 =
don=E2=80=99t you think that the CCP central committee are also the wealthi=
est businessmen in China? =E2=80=93 that in most repressive societies (Iran=
, Saudi Arabia, Azerbaijan, Russia) business and government are utterly int=
ertwined =E2=80=93 do you want such governments/business interests to=
dominate internet policy? You must know from your time at WGEC that=
this what they want?. Who represents my interests as a user in such =
a world? How is anyone represented?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo=
r:black'>And to be clear - I say this with respect for your position as I t=
hink you have valid concerns and we probably share the same goals =E2=80=93=
while clearly disagreeing on the means<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;bo=
rder-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:black'>"<a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchan=
ge.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:parminder=
@itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Thursda=
y, 6 March 2014 05:56<br><b>To: </b>andrew Puddephatt <<a href=3D"mailto=
:andrew at gp-digital.org">andrew at gp-digital.org</a>>, michael gurstein <=
;<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurstein at gmail.com</a>>, "<a=
href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.or=
g</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance=
@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, Jeremy Malcolm <<a href=3D"mailto:Jeremy at Ma=
lcolm.id.au">Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"<<a href=
=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.%20net">bestbits at lists. net</a>>" <<a =
href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a>=
><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial su=
bmissions launched for endorsement at bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:black'>p<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:black'>On Thursday 06 March 2014 11:16 AM, Andrew Puddephatt wrote:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>"not really sure what you are se=
eing as an insult=E2=80=9D</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:#1F497D'>Try assuming that people you disagree with have the same desi=
re for democracy and accountability as you but have a different u=
nderstanding of how to reach it </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.5p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></d=
iv></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><br>I have tried my best, in last=
many months/ years, but have been unable to understand how getting big bus=
iness reps to have "equal footing" parity with government reps (h=
owever imperfectly elected govs they may come from) in terms of <b><i>makin=
g actual decisions on public policy issues</i></b> is compatible with democ=
racy. That is what I call anti- or post-democracy.<br><br>And that is the p=
recise issue/ question I posted yesterday with respect to the principles su=
bmission proposed by some civil society groups including yours, but got no =
response.<br><br>However, if you think it is compatible with democracy do p=
lease explain. We will withdraw the the anti-democratic label..<br><br><br>=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></spa=
n></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-=
family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Just try that mental exercise,=
re read your e-mails to the list</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p=
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:black'><br></span><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Else, this kind of stuff is simpl=
y rhetoric - asking for mental exercises and all. </span><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><br><br>parmi=
nder <br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></=
span></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;pad=
ding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>=
michael gurstein <<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurstein at gmail.c=
om</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, 6 March 2014 05:03<br><b>To: </b>andre=
w Puddephatt <<a href=3D"mailto:andrew at gp-digital.org">andrew at gp-digital=
.org</a>>, "<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">govern=
ance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.ig=
caucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, Jeremy Malcolm <<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au</a>>, "<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>"=
; <<a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.ne=
t</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.net"><bes=
tbits at lists. net></a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbit=
s.net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [governan=
ce] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for endorsement at=
bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:=
p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Insu=
lts by the by (not really sure what you are seeing as an insult.. but anywa=
y=E2=80=A6</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I=E2=80=99ve taken the trouble here and=
elsewhere to lay out some, what I think are serious issues concerning MSis=
m=E2=80=A6</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I=E2=80=99m still waiting for you or an=
yone to make some significant counters to those arguments or even address t=
hem in some serious way (something with a bit more substance than red herri=
ngs about Chinese billionaires and Mr. Cameron=E2=80=A6</span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </=
span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>The US submission to the NETMundial refers to =E2=80=9CMSism=E2=80=
=9D <b><u>9 times</u></b> in less than a page (it doesn=E2=80=99t mention d=
emocracy even once).</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You are evidently a strong su=
pporter of MSism. Perhaps you could give me a response to my comments=
/criticisms or suggest how my arguments are incorrect or my experiences are=
inconclusive.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tks,</span><span style=3D'color:bla=
ck'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span st=
yle=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</s=
pan><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1=
F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div>=
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Andrew Puddephatt=
[<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org</a>=
] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 8:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> michael =
gurstein; <a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists=
.igcaucus.org</a>; 'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"m=
ailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Su=
bject:</b> Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions lau=
nched for endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:=
p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:bl=
ack'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'c=
olor:black'>Actually, far from being tedious, there are interesting and mul=
ti stakeholder ideas in your proposition which in a different place and in =
a different mood would be good to explore.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>Unfortunately your ideas don=E2=80=
=99t seem to be on the table in the WGEC or WSIS reviews and I doubt that t=
he nine billionaires who run the Chinese Communist party, the Supreme Leade=
r of Iran, Mr Putin or Mr Cameron my own prime minister would be too intere=
sted. So I=E2=80=99d rather not see them in control of the internet t=
hank you very much =E2=80=93 which was inter state governance would mean (a=
s opposed to ushering in a new era of global democracy). =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black=
'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:bla=
ck'>As it happens I=E2=80=99ve spent thirty years trying to promote democra=
cy and human rights so your gratuitous insults wash off me but I=E2=80=99m =
curious as to why you feel the need to insult anyone who disagrees with you=
? It is not an effective means of persuasion in my experience s=
o I suggest we terminate this exchange from now.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><=
/div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt=
0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>michael gu=
rstein <<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurstein at gmail.com</a>>=
<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, 6 March 2014 04:02<br><b>To: </b>andrew Puddepha=
tt <<a href=3D"mailto:andrew at gp-digital.org">andrew at gp-digital.org</a>&g=
t;, "<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists=
.igcaucus.org</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org=
">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, Jeremy Malcolm <<a href=3D"mail=
to:Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au</a>>, "<a href=3D"mai=
lto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>" <<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>><=
br><b>Cc: </b>"<<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.%20net">bestbits at l=
ists. net</a>>" <<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net">=
bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] Re:=
[bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for endorsement at bestbi=
ts.net</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ah=E2=80=A6 the =
=E2=80=9Cif I ruled the world=E2=80=9D challenge=E2=80=A6 yes, flattering b=
ut ultimately inconsequential=E2=80=A6 I don=E2=80=99t (thank god) rule the=
world=E2=80=A6 So my off the cuff solutions aren=E2=80=99t worth all that =
much=E2=80=A6</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I did a major project in sub-Saharan=
Africa last year with Mwaki among others addressing more or less this very=
question=E2=80=A6 and the answer was=E2=80=A6 it=E2=80=99s complicated=E2=
=80=A6</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It involved strengthening broad structures =
of governance, putting technology infrastructures into (the right) place(s)=
, training, developing appropriate mechanisms for consultation/decision mak=
ing=E2=80=A6 And yes the answer was multi-stakeholder =E2=80=A6 but=E2=80=
=A6 not multistakeholderist=E2=80=A6 multi-stakeholder within a context whi=
ch could accommodate and contain and make multi-stakeholder consultation an=
d participation meaningful and useful for all concerned including to streng=
then democratic governance and particularly figuring out how to get governm=
ental structures to adapt and respond. To some degree this would be done in=
parallel to existing democratic processes but interwoven with them to use =
the democracy to reinforce the consultations and the consultations to deepe=
n and reinforce the democracy.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:b=
lack'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sorry if this is te=
dious and not glib enough for you but given world enough and time my guess =
is that this kind of thing could work as well in Ouagadougou as in downtown=
Tehran=E2=80=A6 not sure about Hackney/Georgetown but it seems to work wel=
l enough in Teeside and if we can get these things to work in Ouga and Tehr=
an and Teeside =E2=80=93 well =E2=80=9Cfirst we take Manhattan and then we =
take Berlin.. *</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(And BTW it=E2=80=99s not me who i=
s agitating to jettison 300 or so years of democracy in favour of some pig =
in a poke hatched in some US think tank and being foisted on the world by a=
self-interested cabal of the US State Department, Google, various ot=
her OECD private corps, and certain selected =E2=80=9Ccivil society=E2=80=
=9D organizations including your own it would appear**</span><span style=3D=
'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </spa=
n><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4=
97D'>*Leonard Cohen.. <a href=3D"http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.n=
sf/First-We-Take-Manhattan-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF0002=
8CB85">http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/First-We-Take-Manhattan-lyric=
s-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85</a></span><span style=3D'c=
olor:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span>=
<span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>**</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>=
TOWARD A SINGLE GLOBAL DIGITAL ECONOMY <a href=3D"http://www.aspeninstitute=
.org/sites/default/files/content/upload/Toward_a_Single_Global_Digital_Econ=
omy_Aspen_IDEA_Project_0.pdf">http://www.aspeninstitute.org/sites/default/f=
iles/content/upload/Toward_a_Single_Global_Digital_Economy_Aspen_IDEA_Proje=
ct_0.pdf</a></span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:bla=
ck'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </=
span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'b=
order:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","san=
s-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Andrew Puddephatt [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Andrew at gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org</a>] <br><b>Sent:<=
/b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:08 PM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</=
a>; 'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:bestbits@=
lists.bestbits.net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for endor=
sement at bestbits.net</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p=
></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I=E2=80=99m sorry Mike </s=
pan><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color=
:black'>=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> you are not answering the q=
uestion. If you mean by multi-lateralism, negotiations about a global=
environment conducted by states I want to know - not why you think multi-s=
takeholderism is crap - which you have discussed with all of us at great an=
d increasingly tedious length - but what js your democratic alternative tha=
t allows my interests =E2=80=93 or any other citizens to be represented in =
global negotiations?</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:bl=
ack'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Those you d=
isagree with are looking for ways to ensure a broader range of voices =E2=
=80=93 including states of course as the most powerful actors- in the gover=
nance debate.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o=
:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Put your option up=
for discussion and let=E2=80=99s see how democratic that is to the residen=
t of downtown Tehran (or even Hackney where I live)</span><span style=3D'co=
lor:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> =
;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=
=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>michael gurstein <<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurstein at gmail.com</a>><br><b>Date: </=
b>Thursday, 6 March 2014 02:57<br><b>To: </b>andrew Puddephatt <<a href=
=3D"mailto:andrew at gp-digital.org">andrew at gp-digital.org</a>>, "<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org<=
/a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at l=
ists.igcaucus.org</a>>, Jeremy Malcolm <<a href=3D"mailto:Jeremy at Malc=
olm.id.au">Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au</a>>, "<a href=3D"mailto:parminder@=
itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:=
parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>=
"<<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.%20net">bestbits at lists. net</a>&=
gt;" <<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net">bestbits at lists=
.bestbits.net</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Th=
ree NETmundial submissions launched for endorsement at bestbits.net</span><=
span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";co=
lor:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><=
/div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andrew (and Suresh=E2=80=A6</spa=
n><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4=
97D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1F497D'>Those are quite legitimate points/questions and very m=
uch worthy of serious discussion and debate. </span><span style=3D'color:bl=
ack'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span s=
tyle=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Howe=
ver, evoking (over and over and over=E2=80=A6) the undefined, undescribed, =
undetailed multistakeholderist mantra doesn=E2=80=99t get us any closer=E2=
=80=A6 </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The continuous shapeshifting by the propon=
ents of the MS meme whenever they are challenged to get real --well this is=
n=E2=80=99t quite =E2=80=9CMSism=E2=80=9D, it isn=E2=80=99t true MSism, it =
will be better next time MSism, doesn=E2=80=99t do anyone a service (except=
the =E2=80=9Cwizards=E2=80=9D behind the curtains). </span><span style=3D'=
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span=
><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F49=
7D'>From my own experience, whenever MSism =E2=80=9Cgets real=E2=80=9D it f=
alls apart=E2=80=94either it doesn=E2=80=99t have any operational processes=
or related significant structures of accountability so it can=E2=80=99t ha=
ndle even the most insignificant of challenges without some form of full on=
offensive/defensive onslaught or it simply ignores the issue and moves on.=
Nor can it handle even the most inconsequential of divergences/diversities=
of opinion=E2=80=94the drive towards convergence/consensus (and the associ=
ated processes of marginalization and exclusion) are terrifying to me if th=
ere were any real chance of scaling. In the last century we had a lot=
of experience (and several names) for political systems that couldn=E2=80=
=99t deal with challenge, divergence, conflict and insisted on a managed co=
nsensus and forced choices =E2=80=9Cor else=E2=80=A6 </span><span style=3D'=
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span=
><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F49=
7D'>Democracy and multi-lateralism both have many many flaws but they have =
both taken us a considerable distance down roads that allow us to be where =
we are now and thinking about significant and desirable ways forward into m=
uch more complex decision environments. Moreover we now have (the possibili=
ty of using) new tools to support the extending of democratic capabilities,=
the broader inclusion of diversities, the extension of opportunities for e=
ffective participation to previously marginalized populations.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nb=
sp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";co=
lor:#1F497D'>I see absolutely no reason for civil society to be uncriticall=
y supporting MSism as is obviously currently the case. To my mind this goes=
against everything that CS has traditionally stood for=E2=80=94the broaden=
ing and deepening of accountability in support of the public good, the stre=
ngthening of democracy including through its extension to the poor and marg=
inalized, the developing of public processes and methods to control the una=
ccountable use of private power in opposition to the public interest. </spa=
n><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4=
97D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1F497D'>MSism is in its essence a form of privatization of pow=
er=E2=80=94shifting of power from the hands of people (however flawed that =
might be) to the hands of those who for the most part are unaccountable and=
non-transparent in their actions, their internal operations and in their s=
tructures.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I would love to see some demonstration =
that I am wrong or that I=E2=80=99ve missed something but another round of =
=E2=80=9Ctrust them/us=E2=80=9D is not going to cut it.</span><span style=
=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </=
span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>Mike</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:bla=
ck'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span st=
yle=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;bo=
rder-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";colo=
r:black'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahom=
a","sans-serif";color:black'> Andrew Puddephatt [<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew at g=
p-digital.org">mailto:Andrew at gp-digital.org</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday=
, March 05, 2014 6:14 PM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein; <a href=3D"mailto:=
governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>; 'Jeremy M=
alcolm'; 'parminder'<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbit=
s.net">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] =
Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for endorsement at bes=
tbits.net</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span=
></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Michael</span><span style=3D'color:blac=
k'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span>=
<span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:black'>Those of us less clever than you are trying to figure out how t=
o make governance of a global system more equitable and transparent and acc=
ountable. Clearly we failed.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span sty=
le=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blac=
k'>Can you explain to me how an international inter state process is democr=
atic, assuming that is what you believe (and if not what is your democratic=
alternative to the submissions on BB?). How are my interests represe=
nted by inter state discussions, or those of Chinese or Russian citizens, o=
r women in Saudi Arabia or Canadian academics? </span><span style=3D'c=
olor:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbs=
p;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;fo=
nt-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span styl=
e=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black=
'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div=
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in =
0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>michael gurstein &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurstein at gmail.com</a>><br><b>Re=
ply-To: </b>michael gurstein <<a href=3D"mailto:gurstein at gmail.com">gurs=
tein at gmail.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 5 March 2014 23:57<br><b>=
To: </b>"<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at l=
ists.igcaucus.org</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus=
.org">governance at lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, Jeremy Malcolm <<a href=3D"=
mailto:Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au</a>>, "<a href=3D=
"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>" <=
<a href=3D"mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>&=
gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>"<<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.%20net">bestbi=
ts at lists. net</a>>" <<a href=3D"mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.n=
et">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance]=
Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for endorsement at be=
stbits.net</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I see, so in y=
our world democracy (however flawed), is to be replaced by Multistakeholder=
ism where there is no (evident) transparency (T) or accountability (A) for =
the inputs into the stakeholder processes, no (evident) T or A for the outp=
uts of the stakeholder processes and the stakeholders themselves are =
subject to no effective T or A since they are some sort of (interglalactic?=
) shapeshifters errr=E2=80=A6 those with =E2=80=9Crole flexibilities=E2=80=
=9D.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Have I missed something here?</span><span sty=
le=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbs=
p;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'>This may work for a Wizard of Oz space like 1Net where even as =
the curtain gets repeatedly bunched up revealing the (=E2=80=9Cnon-existent=
=E2=80=9D=E2=80=94we have it on the highest possible authority=E2=80=94trus=
t us) wizard pulling the strings and T & A appears to consist of repeat=
ed choruses of =E2=80=9Ctrust them it will get better=E2=80=9D by a fawning=
self-selected =E2=80=9CSteering Committee=E2=80=9D, but surely in our worl=
d we might expect something with a slightly higher reality component.</span=
><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F49=
7D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:=
p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></=
b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:b=
lack'><a href=3D"mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org">governance-r=
equest at lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:governance-request at lists.i=
gcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org</a>] <b>On Behalf=
Of </b>Jeremy Malcolm<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 4:21 AM<br=
><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org">governance at lis=
ts.igcaucus.org</a>; parminder<br><b>Cc:</b> <,<a href=3D"mailto:best=
bits at lists.bestbits.net>">bestbits at lists.bestbits.net></a>,<br>=
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submission=
s launched for endorsement at bestbits.net</span><span style=3D'color:black=
'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'col=
or:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'c=
olor:black'>On 5 Mar 2014, at 7:49 pm, parminder <<a href=3D"mailto:parm=
inder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span st=
yle=3D'color:black'><br><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>So, request a clear response =
- do you mean <b><i>parity</i></b> in <b><i>decision making</i></b> about <=
b><i>public policies </i></b>between gov and non gov actors.... And this is=
not a petty point... Half of the time of the WGEC got taken on this kind o=
f discussion. This is the single most important point today, if we can clar=
ify nd possibly agree on this point - rest is not too difficult... Lets acc=
ept what is the key point, and not skirt it...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>Dif=
ferent people who contributed to the submission, even if they all endorse t=
he final result, will probably give you different answers to that question.=
I'm not sure that anyone is interested in what my personal answer is=
because I'm just an individual, but I would say no I do not accept as a ge=
neral proposition that parity in decision making is appropriate, which is w=
hy I personally objected to that language being used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>Fo=
r some issues, it will be appropriate that the stakeholders act as equals i=
n the decision making process (to the extent that there is a "decision=
" at all). In other areas, it won't be appropriate and may be mo=
re appropriate that although all stakeholders are involved, one of them wil=
l legitimately take a bigger role than the others. For example govern=
ments may take a leading role in transnational human rights disputes, the t=
echnical community may do so in developing spam filtering standards, civil =
society may do so in developing human rights based principles for judging g=
overnment surveillance practices, and even the private sector may do so, sa=
y in setting prices for the trading of IPv4 addresses.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o=
:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>T=
his also implies that the appropriate mechanism of governance may differ in=
each case, eg. laws, standards, markets. The above all follows natur=
ally if you accept that there are no fixed stakeholder roles, because the a=
ppropriate roles will differ depending on the circumstances.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span styl=
e=3D'color:black'><br><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>BTW, the German government has the=
following to say in its submission to NetMundial<br><br>...<br><br>Do you =
for instance agree to the above formulation, or NOT...<o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>Nope, =
don't agree with the German government's formulation because it maintains t=
he fallacy of fixed stakeholder roles.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><=
div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>--</span>=
<span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";=
color:black'>Jeremy Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B Com</span><span style=3D'color=
:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Inter=
net lawyer, ICT policy advocate, geek</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:=
p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>host -t NAPTR 5.9.=
8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.<a href=3D"http://e164.org">e164.org</a>|awk -F! '{print =
$3}'</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p=
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","=
sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dapple-style-span><spa=
n style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>WARNING: This =
email has not been encrypted. You are strongly recommended to enable encryp=
tion at your end. For instructions, see <a href=3D"http://jere.my/l/pgp">ht=
tp://jere.my/l/pgp</a>.</span></span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></=
p></div></div></div></body></html>=
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