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Thu Jan 13 08:49:26 EST 2022
models to be more inclusive, for public consultation to be
introduced where it does not exist, and to be improved where it
does. But we should also propose and promote new models where
policy-making is actually done in an inclusive MS space.
Anriette
On 06/03/2014 14:02, parminder wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Joy
You clarify the difference between two positions very well..
So, I understand that, those who want to support the civil society
statement put on BestBits platform for endorsements hold that
non-gov participants(which includes business)should be on the same
footing as gov participants in terms of actually /*making public
*//*policies*//*.
*/Fine. There is no room for confusion now.
I think this is a anti-democratic statement. And oppose it as ever.
Meanwhile, look forward to see actual models of such policy
making, which arent there in the mentioned statement, or its
accompanying statements.
parminder
PS: I did not think it is BestBits statement, as Joy puts it. And
Joy - or is it someone else from APC - is on the steering committee
on BB... I hope such mis-statements are avoided, and when pointed
out withdrawn. Thanks.
/*
*/
On Thursday 06 March 2014 03:25 PM, joy wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">As Anriette has already noted - in relation to the APC Charter the
full quote in Theme 6.1 is:
Internet governance should be multilateral and democratic, with
the full involvement of governments, the private sector, civil
society and international organisations. No single government
should have a pre-eminent role in relation to international
internet governance.
This does not mean that APC thinks that multi-stakeholder
processes are not democratic or desirable. Quite the contrary and
APC has been on record in many spaces to support multi-stakeholder
processes: these are simply one form of democratic participation.
To be fair, the Best Bits submisson cites a range of other
documents and says, taken together, certain principles relevant to
internet governance can be deduced and should be taken forward
into NetMundial, including human rights.
I am happy to support the Best Bits submission: i think its 2
recommendations are simple, concise and helpful.
It seems the logic of the objections being raised to endorsing the
Best Bits submission is along the lines that on the one hand:
a) governments alone make public policy including some which is
relevant to internet governance
b) governments should be on an equal footing with each other when
doing so; and
c) it follows that non-governmental stakeholders cannot and
therefore should not be on an equal footing with governments this
role (though they can of course be involved/consulted) .
Whereas, the Best Bits submission is premised along the lines that
a) governments and multi-stakeholder processes make public policy
which is relevant to internet governance
b) therefore all stakeholders should be on an equitable footing or
parity with each other when doing so;
Again, I see no reason not to support the Best Bits submission
which simply proposes that whatever internet governance principles
NetMundial is considering, equitable multi-stakholder
participation and human rights (among others) are relevant to them.
Joy
Joy
On 6/03/2014 9:14 p.m., Anriette Esterhuysen wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear all
Just a clarification here on the APC Internet Rights Charter and
the use of 'multilateral'.
The full text in Theme 6.1 is:
"Internet governance should be multilateral and democratic, with
the full involvement of governments, the private sector, civil
society and international organisations. No single government
should have a pre-eminent role in relation to international
internet governance."
When we drafted this text we used 'multilateral' in its
dictionary sense as meaning the involvement of multiple parties
and multiple countries. We did not mean it in the 'intergovernmental' sense.
In fact.. the text that follows multilateral and democratic
defines how we understood the term: "with the full involvement of
governments, the private sector, civil society and international
organisations. No single government should have a pre-eminent
role in relation to international internet governance."
Since then (remember we first drafted the charter in 2001) the
term multilateral has become loaded and is often underestood as
meaning "among governments". It was not our intention to suggest
that. But we certainly did mean that governments should be
involved, and that no one government should dominate - but in the
context of the involvement of other stakeholders too.
Best
Anriette
On 05/03/2014 14:29, parminder wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Wednesday 05 March 2014 05:19 PM, parminder wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Wednesday 05 March 2014 05:09 PM, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 5 Mar 2014, at 7:21 pm, parminder
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:parminder at itforchange.net">parminder at itforchange.net</a> <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:parminder at itforchange.net"><mailto:parminder at itforchange.net></a>> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">And of course, the proposed view to be submitted on 1Net's
behalf has this all important principle, "Decisions made with
respect to Internet governance should only be made by bodies
that allow free and equitable access to all stakeholders at
all points in the decision-making process." Well of course.
Two hoots to democracy!
Now I shall come to the point, of my comments on the proposed
submission to NetMundial submitted by Jeremy.
I of course support and commend both APC Principles and IRP
Principles - which seem the main burden of the submission....
BUT...
/*
*//*Can someone explain me the meaning of "equitable
multistakeholder participation"*/and whether it is different
from what is meant in the above statement from 1Net's survey.
If so, how.... More precisely, are you seeking that all
stakeholders, including business reps, have equal part and
role (as gov reps) in making decisions about public policies.
Please address this point specifically.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Yes, you picked up on a key point. There was a discussion of
this on the pad where the text was workshopped, which you can
read for yourself: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://pad.riseup.net/p/IG_principles">https://pad.riseup.net/p/IG_principles</a>. At
various times it was "parity" and "power sharing" before it
became "equitable participation", which is somewhat flexible,
to accommodate the different viewpoints that we all have about
how equal the stakeholder roles should be.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
I dont greatly like flexibility between democracy and
non-democracy.
So, request a clear response - do you mean /*parity*/ in
/*decision making*/ about /*public policies */between gov and
non gov actors....
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
It is important to note that the two main Principles docs that
this CS contribution refers to speak of democracy but not
multistakeholder governance, much less 'equitable MSism'..
In fact the APC Principles doc speaks of "The right to
multilateral democratic oversight of the Internet. Internet
governanceshould be multilateral and democratic. "
Obviously, what is the main, unique, and new element in this
present submission - equitable multistakeholder participation -
does not come from the 2 key docs which are claimed to be the
principle inspirations.
Ok, lets next check the 3 other principles docs that are also
quoted as somewhat secondary inspirations - CGI.Br Principles,
CoE principles, and G 8 principles....
In these principles docs, while all f them orepeatedly and
emphatically speak of democracy, the MS (multistakeholder) term
either does not figure (CGI.Br doc) or comes in a much much
subsidiary fashion wrt to democracy (the other two docs)
Now, lets see what does your contribution - developed by civil
society actors in IG space - come up with .....
There is not a single mention of 'democracy' or 'democratic' in
this doc.... Even when you guys came up with "key governance
characteristics" you could think only of " openness,
transparency, inclusivity, accountability, and /*equitable
multistakeholder participation */" (emphasis added)
In all your f2f meetings, and long online deliberations, did the
word 'democracy' not occur to any one at all... Or did it occur
to someone and was contributed but did not find favour in the
group.... Dont know which is worse. But both are bad enough for
me to stay away from this doc.
And I appeal also to others who really believe in democracy not
to get caught in this trap that is laid for them.... This is the
thin end of the wedge, which will soon usher you into a brave
new post democratic world, that one which the neo liberals dream
of.... It is a pity that a good part of civil society has agreed
to be the Trojan Horse for the powerful warriors of the neolib
order.
See, how the term democracy is rejected, and phrases like
equitable multistakeholder participation (further explained in
the emerging contribution from 1 Net - principle 11 in the
survey) are getting introduced as basis of our governance. And
see how exactly it matches what some of us predicted is the
prime objective at present of the US supported status quoists to
get into the text of the outcomes from NetMundial...... All of piece.
parminder
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">And this is not a petty point... Half of the time of the WGEC
got taken on this kind of discussion. This is the single most
important point today, if we can clarify nd possibly agree on
this point - rest is not too difficult... Lets accept what is
the key point, and not skirt it...
BTW, the German government has the following to say in its
submission to NetMundial
"Democratically elected governments, as the representative of
the people, possess public authority including internet-related
public policy issues and are supposed to be the main source for
legitimacy and democratic legitimation. Hence they have to
respect and protect human rights, ensure that the rule of law
is respected and that relevant national legislation complies
with their obligations under international law. Moreover, they
need to ensure that the appropriate basic conditions both in
terms of cyber-security and technical provisions are in place.
Civil society serves, and should continue to do so, as a
facilitator and notably as a source of empowerment and
credibility, especially at community level. The private sector
and particularly the technical community significantly
influence and encourage the development, distribution and
accessibility of the internet, and should continue to do so. In
order to fully live up to the potentials for economic growth,
innovation, freedom of expression, access to information and
ideas and democratic participation in a knowledge society, all
stakeholders involved need to work together."
Do you for instance agree to the above formulation, or NOT...
parminder
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">--
Jeremy Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B Com Internet lawyer, ICT
policy advocate, geek host -t NAPTR
5.9.8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.e164.org <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://e164.org"><http://e164.org></a>|awk -F!
'{print $3}'
WARNING: This email has not been encrypted. You are strongly
recommended to enable encryption at your end. For
instructions, see <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://jere.my/l/pgp">http://jere.my/l/pgp</a>.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">--
------------------------------------------------------
anriette <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:esterhuysenanriette at apc.org">esterhuysenanriette at apc.org</a> executive director,
association for progressive communications <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.apc.org">www.apc.org</a> po box
29755, melville 2109 south africa tel/fax +27 11 726 1692
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">--
------------------------------------------------------
anriette <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:esterhuysenanriette at apc.org">esterhuysenanriette at apc.org</a> executive director, association
for progressive communications <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.apc.org">www.apc.org</a> po box 29755, melville
2109 south africa tel/fax +27 11 726 1692
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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