[bestbits] Reform surveillance
joy
joy at apc.org
Tue Dec 10 20:33:21 EST 2013
Hi - well, i would respond 'yes' and 'no' to your comments Matthias ....
yes on the one hand there is some failure to mention documents that
already exist ... but no, it would not be accurate to elevate those and
other existing HRC resolutions to an "international bill of digital
rights" - which is not to under-rate their significance, but just to put
it in a broader context - there is more work that could be done to
articulate these.
I do wonder, for example, if one concrete outcome civil society could
suggest for the UN OHCHR session on surveillance next year (the action
proposed in the UN General Assembly resolution) is a stronger and more
explicit human rights standard for online rights and freedoms ....
joy
On 11/12/2013 7:23 a.m., Matthias C. Kettemann wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> unfortunately the authors misrepresent the state of internaitonal law
> and fail to mention the important documents we already have. They call
> on "the United Nations to acknowledge the central importance of
> protecting civil rights in the digital age, and to create an
> international bill of digital rights."
>
> The Human RIghts Council has already done so in its groundbreaking
> resolution 20/8 and the GA in the recent resolution on privacy. We
> already have documents enshrining human rights which are applicable in
> the digital age - offline just as online.
>
> Kind regards
> Matthias
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Anja Kovacs
> <anja at internetdemocracy.in <mailto:anja at internetdemocracy.in>> wrote:
>
> This might also be of interest in the framework of this
> discussion, as another initiative to push for reforms:
>
> World's leading authors say state surveillance of personal data is
> theft, and demand a digital bill of rights,
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/10/surveillance-theft-worlds-leading-authors?CMP=twt_gu
>
>
> Best,
> Anja
>
>
>
>
> On 10 December 2013 21:54, Gene Kimmelman <genekimmelman at gmail.com
> <mailto:genekimmelman at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Mike, I appreciate your intellectual clarity and segmentation
> of priorities. However, as a political matter (particularly
> for non - US citizens), the companies are practically aiding
> and abetting the governments until THE COMPANIES reform their
> practices; I therefore think we need to address both problems,
> even if one is much more significant as a matter of principle.
>
> On Dec 10, 2013, at 11:19 AM, "Mike Godwin
> (mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG <mailto:mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG>)"
> <mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG <mailto:mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG>> wrote:
>
>>
>> Gene and Mishi, I think it means this for some value of
>> “insists,” but this takes us back to the old debate about
>> “opt-in” versus “opt-out.” This does, in fact, remain a
>> really good debate to have — whether, say, Google should
>> require us to sign in for search, or what the default
>> settings of internet services should be. And so on. But, to
>> me, those remain nuanced discussions. Governments engaging in
>> bulk collection of data is not a nuanced issue, in my view —
>> it centers squarely on whether governments should be in the
>> habit of engaging in such activities, especially without
>> transparency and accountability.
>>
>> My priorities are, in this order, (1) get governments out of
>> the unaccountable bulk-collection business, if we can, and
>> (2) have a thorough discussion of what we will allow
>> commercial entities to do with regard to collection of
>> private data. Without saying everyone should share my ordered
>> priorities, I hope it’s clear why I think (1) is the more
>> immediate and urgent problem.
>>
>> Also, I think achievability of public policy relies on
>> disentangling the issues rather than on assuming they’re
>> hopelessly entangled. As I noted earlier, I think we could
>> reduce commercial data-gathering a thousandfold and still not
>> address the fundamental problem of what governments want to do.
>>
>>
>> —Mike
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Mike Godwin* | Senior Legal Advisor, Global Internet Policy
>> Project
>> mgodwin at internews.org
>> <mailto:mgodwin at internews.org> | *Mobile* 415-793-4446
>> *Skype* mnemonic1026
>> *Address* 1601 R Street NW, 2nd Floor Washington, DC 20009 USA
>>
>> *INTERNEWS* |* **Local Voices. Global Change.*
>> www.internews.org <http://www.internews.org/> | @internews
>> <http://www.twitter.com/internews> | facebook.com/internews
>> <http://www.facebook.com/internews>
>>
>> From: "genekimmelman at gmail.com
>> <mailto:genekimmelman at gmail.com>" <genekimmelman at gmail.com
>> <mailto:genekimmelman at gmail.com>>
>> Reply-To: "genekimmelman at gmail.com
>> <mailto:genekimmelman at gmail.com>" <genekimmelman at gmail.com
>> <mailto:genekimmelman at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 11:02 AM
>> To: "mishi at softwarefreedom.org
>> <mailto:mishi at softwarefreedom.org>"
>> <mishi at softwarefreedom.org
>> <mailto:mishi at softwarefreedom.org>>, Mike Godwin
>> <mgodwin at internews.org <mailto:mgodwin at internews.org>>,
>> "bestbits at lists.bestbits.net
>> <mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>"
>> <bestbits at lists.bestbits.net
>> <mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>>
>> Subject: Re: [bestbits] Reform surveillance
>>
>> If the supply side insists on personal information for
>> targeted advertising, isn't that entangled with the data
>> governments seek?
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Mishi Choudhary <mishi at softwarefreedom.org
>> <mailto:mishi at softwarefreedom.org>>
>> Date: 12/10/2013 10:52 AM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: "Mike Godwin (mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG
>> <mailto:mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG>)" <mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG
>> <mailto:mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG>>,bestbits at lists.bestbits.net
>> <mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net>
>> Subject: Re: [bestbits] Reform surveillance
>>
>>
>> I agree with Mike that its crucial to reduce the "demand-side" by
>> regulating government access but I think the suppliers of
>> data are not
>> as informed as they should and could be and the companies
>> have more to
>> do at their end.
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2013 07:10 PM, Mike Godwin (mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG
>> <mailto:mgodwin at INTERNEWS.ORG>) wrote:
>> > Mishi quotes the Times:
>> >
>> >
>> >> "While the Internet companies fight to maintain authority
>> over their
>> >> customers¹ data, their business models depend on
>> collecting the same
>> >> information that the spy agencies want, and they have long
>> cooperated
>> >> with the government to some extent by handing over data in
>> response to
>> >> legal requests.
>> > This statement strikes me as disingenuously oversimplistic
>> on the Times¹s
>> > part ‹ specifically, in saying that the Internet companies
>> are collecting
>> > ³the same information that the spy agencies want.² Yes,
>> the agencies want
>> > the data the companies have, but the companies are
>> gathering data about
>> > consumption and viewing patterns, primarily. What the
>> agencies want is
>> > traffic and association analysis, and they know they can
>> draw inferences
>> > if they have large datasets.
>> >
>> > This may seem like a subtle distinction, but really it¹s
>> not. It¹s like
>> > saying ³I listen to changes in the tone of your voice when
>> you speak to
>> > me, and so does the snooping spy who wiretaps your phone,
>> and therefore,
>> > implicitly, the spy and I are both culpable somehow.²
>> >
>> > What I perceive in all this is an attempt to muddy the
>> issue and
>> > delegitimize the internet companies¹ sincere efforts to
>> build and/or
>> > restore consumer trust. I¹m critical of the companies from
>> time to time
>> > (and there are times when I¹m mostly critical of what all
>> the companies
>> > are doing), but to me the real analysis here is that
>> governments have
>> > opportunistically taken advantage of what the companies
>> have been
>> > gathering, most of the time in good faith, from users.
>> >
>> >> The new principles outlined by the companies contain
>> little information
>> >> and few promises about their own practices, which privacy
>> advocates say
>> >> contribute to the government¹s desire to tap into the
>> companies¹ data
>> >> systems.
>> >>
>> >> ³The companies are placing their users at risk by
>> collecting and
>> >> retaining so much information,² said Marc Rotenberg,
>> president and
>> >> executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information
>> Center, a
>> >> nonprofit research and advocacy organization. ³As long as
>> this much
>> >> personal data is collected and kept by these companies,
>> they are always
>> >> going to be the target of government collection efforts.²
>> > I take Marc at his word, as always, but the fact is that if
>> the companies
>> > cut their data gathering in half ‹ or even by a factor of
>> 10 or 100 ‹
>> > governments will want to engage in bulk collection and
>> interception. The
>> > key approach, in my view, is to try to reduce the
>> demand-side (by
>> > regulating what governments can do) rather conflate it with
>> the supply
>> > side (the fact that commercial enterprises gather data from
>> actual and
>> > potential customers (or for them).
>> >
>> >
>> > ‹Mike, speaking only for myself
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Warm Regards
>> Mishi Choudhary, Esq.
>> Legal Director
>> Software Freedom Law Center
>> 1995 Broadway Floor 17
>> New York, NY-10023
>> (tel) 212-461-1912
>> (fax) 212-580-0898
>> www.softwarefreedom.org <http://www.softwarefreedom.org>
>>
>>
>> Executive Director
>> SFLC.IN <http://SFLC.IN>
>> K-9, Second Floor
>> Jangpura Extn.
>> New Delhi-110014
>> (tel) +91-11-43587126 <tel:%2B91-11-43587126>
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>> www.sflc.in <http://www.sflc.in>
>>
>>
>>
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> --
> Dr. Anja Kovacs
> The Internet Democracy Project
>
> +91 9899028053 <tel:%2B91%209899028053> | @anjakovacs
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> --
>
> Dr. Matthias C. Kettemann, LL.M. (Harvard)
> Post-Doc Fellow | Cluster of Excellence „
> <http://www.normativeorders.net/de/organisation/mitarbeiter-a-z/person/442>Normative
> Orders
> <http://www.normativeorders.net/de/organisation/mitarbeiter-a-z/person/442>”
> <http://www.normativeorders.net/de/organisation/mitarbeiter-a-z/person/442>,
> University of Frankfurt/Main
> Lecturer | Institute of International Law and International Relations,
> University of Graz <http://voelkerrecht.uni-graz.at/en/>
> Research Affiliate | European Training and Research Centre for Human
> Rights and Democracy, University of Graz
> <http://trainingszentrum-menschenrechte.uni-graz.at/en/infos-fuer-studierende/>
>
> Exzellenzcluster "Normative Ordnungen", Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main
> EXC-8, Grüneburgplatz 1
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>
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> <http://www.nwv.at/recht/verfassungsrecht/1019_european_yearbook_on_human_rights_2013/>
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