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Hi - well, i would respond 'yes' and 'no' to your comments Matthias
.... yes on the one hand there is some failure to mention documents
that already exist ... but no, it would not be accurate to elevate
those and other existing HRC resolutions to an "international bill
of digital rights" - which is not to under-rate their significance,
but just to put it in a broader context - there is more work that
could be done to articulate these.<br>
I do wonder, for example, if one concrete outcome civil society
could suggest for the UN OHCHR session on surveillance next year
(the action proposed in the UN General Assembly resolution) is a
stronger and more explicit human rights standard for online rights
and freedoms .... <br>
<br>
joy <br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/12/2013 7:23 a.m., Matthias C.
Kettemann wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CALjW9_mFqA48N_XfZw07dBumFmg97q8i8SFWkQpdEFUO7k-32g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear all, <br>
<br>
unfortunately the authors misrepresent the state of
internaitonal law and fail to mention the important documents
we already have. They call on "the United Nations to
acknowledge the central importance of protecting civil rights
in the digital age, and to create an international bill of
digital rights." <br>
<br>
</div>
<div>The Human RIghts Council has already done so in its
groundbreaking resolution 20/8 and the GA in the recent
resolution on privacy. We already have documents enshrining
human rights which are applicable in the digital age - offline
just as online.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Kind regards<br>
Matthias <br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Anja
Kovacs <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:anja@internetdemocracy.in" target="_blank">anja@internetdemocracy.in</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>This might also be of interest in the framework
of this discussion, as another initiative to push
for reforms:<br>
<br>
</div>
World's leading authors say state surveillance of
personal data is theft, and demand a digital bill of
rights, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/10/surveillance-theft-worlds-leading-authors?CMP=twt_gu"
target="_blank">http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/10/surveillance-theft-worlds-leading-authors?CMP=twt_gu</a>
<br>
<br>
</div>
Best,<br>
Anja<br>
<div><br>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 10 December 2013 21:54, Gene
Kimmelman <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com"
target="_blank">genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt
0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Mike, I appreciate
your intellectual clarity and segmentation of
priorities. However, as a political matter
(particularly for non - US citizens), the
companies are practically aiding and abetting the
governments until THE COMPANIES reform their
practices; I therefore think we need to address
both problems, even if one is much more
significant as a matter of principle.
<div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Dec 10, 2013, at 11:19 AM, "Mike
Godwin (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG"
target="_blank">mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>)"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG"
target="_blank">mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word;font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Gene and Mishi, I think it means
this for some value of “insists,”
but this takes us back to the old
debate about “opt-in” versus
“opt-out.” This does, in fact,
remain a really good debate to have
— whether, say, Google should
require us to sign in for search, or
what the default settings of
internet services should be. And so
on. But, to me, those remain nuanced
discussions. Governments engaging in
bulk collection of data is <span
style="font-weight:bold">not</span> a
nuanced issue, in my view — it
centers squarely on whether
governments should be in the habit
of engaging in such activities,
especially without transparency and
accountability.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My priorities are, in this order,
(1) get governments out of the
unaccountable bulk-collection
business, if we can, and (2) have a
thorough discussion of what we will
allow commercial entities to do with
regard to collection of private
data. Without saying everyone should
share my ordered priorities, I hope
it’s clear why I think (1) is the
more immediate and urgent problem.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, I think achievability of
public policy relies on
disentangling the issues rather than
on assuming they’re hopelessly
entangled. As I noted earlier, I
think we could reduce commercial
data-gathering a thousandfold and
still not address the fundamental
problem of what governments want to
do. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>—Mike</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>-- </div>
<div>
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Senior Legal Advisor, Global
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medium medium;border-style:solid
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0in;border-top:1pt solid
rgb(181,196,223)"> <span
style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com"
target="_blank">genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com"
target="_blank">genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Reply-To:
</span> "<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com"
target="_blank">genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com"
target="_blank">genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date:
</span> Tuesday, December 10, 2013
at 11:02 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mishi@softwarefreedom.org"
target="_blank">mishi@softwarefreedom.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mishi@softwarefreedom.org"
target="_blank">mishi@softwarefreedom.org</a>>,
Mike Godwin <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@internews.org"
target="_blank">mgodwin@internews.org</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:
</span> Re: [bestbits] Reform
surveillance<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>If the supply side insists on
personal information for targeted
advertising, isn't that entangled
with the data governments seek? <br>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original message --------<br>
From: Mishi Choudhary <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mishi@softwarefreedom.org"
target="_blank">mishi@softwarefreedom.org</a>>
<br>
Date: 12/10/2013 10:52 AM
(GMT-05:00) <br>
To: "Mike Godwin (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG"
target="_blank">mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>)"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG"
target="_blank">mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>>,<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>
<br>
Subject: Re: [bestbits] Reform
surveillance <br>
<br>
<br>
I agree with Mike that its crucial
to reduce the "demand-side" by<br>
regulating government access but I
think the suppliers of data are
not<br>
as informed as they should and
could be and the companies have
more to<br>
do at their end.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/09/2013 07:10 PM, Mike
Godwin (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG" target="_blank">mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>)
wrote:<br>
> Mishi quotes the Times:<br>
><br>
><br>
>> "While the Internet
companies fight to maintain
authority over their<br>
>> customers¹ data, their
business models depend on
collecting the same<br>
>> information that the spy
agencies want, and they have long
cooperated<br>
>> with the government to
some extent by handing over data
in response to<br>
>> legal requests.<br>
> This statement strikes me as
disingenuously oversimplistic on
the Times¹s<br>
> part ‹ specifically, in
saying that the Internet companies
are collecting<br>
> ³the same information that
the spy agencies want.² Yes, the
agencies want<br>
> the data the companies have,
but the companies are gathering
data about<br>
> consumption and viewing
patterns, primarily. What the
agencies want is<br>
> traffic and association
analysis, and they know they can
draw inferences<br>
> if they have large datasets.<br>
><br>
> This may seem like a subtle
distinction, but really it¹s not.
It¹s like<br>
> saying ³I listen to changes
in the tone of your voice when you
speak to<br>
> me, and so does the snooping
spy who wiretaps your phone, and
therefore,<br>
> implicitly, the spy and I are
both culpable somehow.²<br>
><br>
> What I perceive in all this
is an attempt to muddy the issue
and<br>
> delegitimize the internet
companies¹ sincere efforts to
build and/or<br>
> restore consumer trust. I¹m
critical of the companies from
time to time<br>
> (and there are times when I¹m
mostly critical of what all the
companies<br>
> are doing), but to me the
real analysis here is that
governments have<br>
> opportunistically taken
advantage of what the companies
have been<br>
> gathering, most of the time
in good faith, from users.<br>
><br>
>> The new principles
outlined by the companies contain
little information<br>
>> and few promises about
their own practices, which privacy
advocates say<br>
>> contribute to the
government¹s desire to tap into
the companies¹ data<br>
>> systems.<br>
>><br>
>> ³The companies are
placing their users at risk by
collecting and<br>
>> retaining so much
information,² said Marc Rotenberg,
president and<br>
>> executive director of the
Electronic Privacy Information
Center, a<br>
>> nonprofit research and
advocacy organization. ³As long as
this much<br>
>> personal data is
collected and kept by these
companies, they are always<br>
>> going to be the target of
government collection efforts.²<br>
> I take Marc at his word, as
always, but the fact is that if
the companies<br>
> cut their data gathering in
half ‹ or even by a factor of 10
or 100 ‹<br>
> governments will want to
engage in bulk collection and
interception. The<br>
> key approach, in my view, is
to try to reduce the demand-side
(by<br>
> regulating what governments
can do) rather conflate it with
the supply<br>
> side (the fact that
commercial enterprises gather data
from actual and<br>
> potential customers (or for
them).<br>
><br>
><br>
> ‹Mike, speaking only for
myself<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Warm Regards<br>
Mishi Choudhary, Esq.<br>
Legal Director<br>
Software Freedom Law Center<br>
1995 Broadway Floor 17<br>
New York, NY-10023<br>
(tel) 212-461-1912<br>
(fax) 212-580-0898<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
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target="_blank">www.softwarefreedom.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Executive Director <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
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target="_blank">SFLC.IN</a><br>
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Jangpura Extn.<br>
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<br>
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-- <br>
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The Internet Democracy Project<br>
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<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"> Dr. Matthias C.
Kettemann, LL.M. (Harvard)<br>
<span lang="EN-US">Post-Doc Fellow | <a
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target="_blank">”</a>, University of Frankfurt/Main<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US">Lecturer | </span><span
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href="http://voelkerrecht.uni-graz.at/en/"
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Research Centre for Human Rights and Democracy,
University of Graz</span></a></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">Exzellenzcluster
"Normative Ordnungen", Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main<br>
EXC-8, Grüneburgplatz 1<br>
60323 Frankfurt/Main, Deutschland<br>
<br>
E | <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">Recent publications:<br>
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</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nwv.at/recht/verfassungsrecht/1019_european_yearbook_on_human_rights_2013/"
target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">European Yearbook on
Human Rights 2013 (2013, co-edited)</span></a><span
lang="EN-US"> <br>
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