The Good the Bad and the Ugly was Re: [governance] Internet Social Forum

Sun Jan 25 10:58:31 EST 2015

+ 1
Thanks, Daniel, for your precise and critical  reading.

Relating to "consensus", may I suggest a reference towards a more  
dynamic conception of democracy ?
""I use the concept of agonistic pluralism to present a new way to  
think about democracy that is different from the traditional liberal  
conception of democracy as a negotiation among interests and is also  
different from the model that is currently being developed by people  
like Jürgen Habermas and John Rawls. While they have many differences,  
Rawls and Habermas have in common the idea that the aim of the  
democratic society is the creation of a consensus, and that consensus  
is possible if people are only able to leave aside their particular  
interests and think as rational beings. However, while we desire an  
end to conflict, if we want people to be free we must always allow for  
the possibility that conflict may appear and to provide an arena where  
differences can be confronted. The democratic process should supply  
that arena." Chantal Mouffe, (2000) The Democratic Paradox. London,  
New York. Verso.

And I would ask the proponents of peaceful debates to questioning the  
rough and contemptuous tone some of them are using towards  voices  
that don't endorse their positions ... Conflict has been existing for  
a long time (and probably it won't come to an end)  between civil  
society groups but the worst attitude would be ignoring or opacifying  
their rationale.

Best regards,
Françoise

Le 25 janv. 15 à 15:10, Daniel Pimienta a écrit :

> Thanks Carlos to share in this list the statement of J. Malcolm.
>
> As an early follower and today member and ally of JNC and its plan  
> to launch an ISF I have read with attention this document,  
> especially because you qualified it as "excellent".
> I appreciate the time the author has invested in putting together  
> the document and the huge effort to maintain a neutral tone...which,  
> as I will show, has been struggling and loosing againts a deep rage  
> he cannot hide. Why facing different vision provokes that much rage  
> is hard to understand to me... Why Carlos Afonso find excellence  
> here does surprise me.
>
> Maybe my reading is not enough objective but I read basically 2  
> strong arguments against the action plan of JNC for an ISF:
>
> 1) The first argument is that "We in JNC are clear partisan of  
> governments taking charge of the governance of the Internet."
> The very axiom of all the the demonstration is just not true so  
> unfortunalely all the derived theorems are wrong.
> The critic of today multistakeholderism is not synonym of allegance  
> to traditional governmental form of democracy... or imagination has  
> become so limited in civil society?
> The arguing that JNC pretend to use standard democratic  
> repreasentation and member states competent international  
> organisations is nothing but an oversimplification which is not  
> prone to good dialog and somehow is part of the second argument.
>
> 2) The second argument is the demonization of the players of JNC.
>
> Let me just list the various qualificatives spead over the rationale  
> to make my point:
>
> - profoundly dysfunctional (engagement with civil society)
> -  (the people of JNC has) frequently threatened to tear that group  
> apart
> - a prominent JNC member almost came to blows with a female attendee  
> (this for Parminder)
> - the toxic relationship that its representatives have cultivated  
> with the rest of civil society.
> - to disrupt ... by hectoring, intimidating and disparaging  
> participants who expressed pro-multistakeholder views.
> - this is a farcical insult (refer to Gurstein's)
> -  the disruptive behaviour of JNC
> - these demands were delivered with such hubris and entitlement   
> that the effect has been to isolate JNC from other civil society  
> groups and networks and to sow seeds of discord
> that will have lasting effects - JNC betrayed that trust...  (this  
> is for Norbert)
> - This is a shame
> - preferring to focus its destructive anger on easier,weaker targets  
>  its own civil society colleagues.
>
> This seems to me to be a replay of a good spaghetti western with JNC  
> in the role of the ugly, IGF in the role of the bad and BetBits in  
> the role of the Good.
> I prefer Sergio Leone version :-) and I have a hard time to  
> understand why a profound difference of vision inside civil society  
> should be treated as a pathologic deviance as would homosexuality be  
> treated in some very conservative countries...
>
> To conclude, I am myself a "white man" born in a developing country,  
> with a nationality of an industrialized country who lived in a  
> developing country... but who cares beyond Mr. Malcolm  (X :-)?)
> and what sort of argument is that to designate MM. Pouzin and Nothias?
>
> Daniel Pimienta
>
> PD: There is a simple way to determine if, as M. Malcolm pretends,  
> his views on the Ugly part of this community are shared by the  
> majority: this is a survey on the list with the appropriate  
> questions, a device that virtual community managers use when  
> conflictive situation occurs. I do suggest to the convenors of this  
> list to think seriously about it so nobody can pretend talking on  
> the name of the rest of us without factual support.
>
> -- 
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Françoise Massit-Folléa
f.massit at orange.fr
Mob. 06 74 51 67 65

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