<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">+ 1<div>Thanks, Daniel, for your precise and critical reading.</div><div><br></div><div>Relating to "consensus", may I suggest a reference towards a more dynamic conception of democracy ?</div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 11px;">"<span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 22px; font-family: sans-serif; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#252525">"I use the concept of agonistic pluralism to present a new way to think about democracy that is different from the traditional liberal conception of democracy as a negotiation among interests and is also different from the model that is currently being developed by people like</font> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCrgen_Habermas" title="Jürgen Habermas" style="text-decoration: none; background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; ">Jürgen Habermas</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rawls" title="John Rawls" style="text-decoration: none; background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; ">John Rawls</a>. </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(37, 37, 37); line-height: 22px; font-family: sans-serif; ">While they have many differences, Rawls and Habermas have in common the idea that the aim of the democratic society is the creation of a consensus, and that consensus is possible if people are only able to leave aside their particular interests and think as rational beings. However, while we desire an end to conflict, if we want people to be free we must always allow for the possibility that conflict may appear and to provide an arena where differences can be confronted. </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(37, 37, 37); line-height: 22px; font-family: sans-serif; ">The democratic </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(37, 37, 37); line-height: 22px; font-family: sans-serif; ">process should supply that arena." Chantal Mouffe, </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(37, 37, 37); line-height: 20px; font-family: sans-serif; ">(2000) The Democratic Paradox. London, New York. Verso.</span></span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#252525" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#252525" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px;">And I would ask the proponents of peaceful debates to questioning the rough and contemptuous tone some of them are using towards voices that don't endorse their positions ... </span></font><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(37, 37, 37); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; ">Conflict has been existing for a long time (and probably it won't come to an end) between civil society groups but the worst attitude would be ignoring or opacifying their rationale. </span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#252525" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#252525" face="sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px;">Best regards,<br></span></font></div><div><div><div>Françoise</div><div><br></div><div>Le 25 janv. 15 à 15:10, Daniel Pimienta a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div> Thanks Carlos to share in this list the statement of J. Malcolm.<br><br> As an early follower and today member and ally of JNC and its plan to launch an ISF I have read with attention this document, especially because you qualified it as "excellent".<br> I appreciate the time the author has invested in putting together the document and the huge effort to maintain a neutral tone...which, as I will show, has been struggling and loosing againts a deep rage he cannot hide. Why facing different vision provokes that much rage is hard to understand to me... Why Carlos Afonso find excellence here does surprise me.<br><br> Maybe my reading is not enough objective but I read basically 2 strong arguments against the action plan of JNC for an ISF:<br><br> 1) The first argument is that "<i>We in JNC are clear partisan of governments taking charge of the governance of the Internet</i>."<br> The very axiom of all the the demonstration is just not true so unfortunalely all the derived theorems are wrong.<br> The critic of today multistakeholderism is not synonym of allegance to traditional governmental form of democracy... or imagination has become so limited in civil society?<br> The arguing that JNC pretend to use standard democratic repreasentation and member states competent international organisations is nothing but an oversimplification which is not prone to good dialog and somehow is part of the second argument.<br><br> 2) The second argument is the demonization of the players of JNC.<br><br> Let me just list the various qualificatives spead over the rationale to make my point:<br><br> - <i>profoundly dysfunctional </i>(engagement with civil society)<br> - (the people of JNC has) <i>frequently threatened to tear that group apart<br> </i>- a prominent JNC member almost<i> came to blows with a female attendee</i> (this for Parminder)<br> -<i> the toxic relationship </i>that its representatives have cultivated with the rest of civil society.<br> - <i>to disrupt ... by hectoring, intimidating and disparaging participants</i> who expressed pro-multistakeholder views.<br> - this<i> is a farcical insult </i>(refer to Gurstein's)<br> - the <i>disruptive behaviour of </i>JNC<br> - these demands were delivered with <i>such hubris and entitlement </i>that the effect has been to isolate JNC from other civil society groups and networks and <i>to sow seeds of discord<br> that will have lasting effects</i> - <i>JNC betrayed that trust</i>... (this is for Norbert)<br> - <i>This is a shame<br> </i>- preferring to focus <i>its destructive anger </i>on easier,weaker targets its own civil society colleagues.<br><br> This seems to me to be a replay of a good spaghetti western with JNC in the role of the ugly, IGF in the role of the bad and BetBits in the role of the Good.<br> I prefer Sergio Leone version :-) and I have a hard time to understand why a profound difference of vision inside civil society should be treated as a pathologic deviance as would homosexuality be treated in some very conservative countries...<br><br> To conclude, I am myself a "<i>white man</i>" born in a developing country, with a nationality of an industrialized country who lived in a developing country... but who cares beyond Mr. Malcolm (X :-)?) <br> and what sort of argument is that to designate MM. Pouzin and Nothias? <br><br> Daniel Pimienta<br><br> PD: There is a simple way to determine if, as M. Malcolm pretends, his views on the Ugly part of this community are shared by the majority: this is a survey on the list with the appropriate questions, a device that virtual community managers use when conflictive situation occurs. I do suggest to the convenors of this list to think seriously about it so nobody can pretend talking on the name of the rest of us without factual support.<br> <br>-- <br>This message has been scanned for viruses and <br>dangerous content by <a href="http://www.mailscanner.info/"><b>MailScanner</b></a>, and is <br>believed to be clean. </div> ____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Françoise Massit-Folléa</div><div><a href="mailto:f.massit@orange.fr">f.massit@orange.fr</a></div><div>Mob. 06 74 51 67 65</div><div><br></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></div></body></html>