[governance] Taiwanese nationals and the IGF

Wed Sep 11 09:52:16 EDT 2019

Love it Matthias and Cathleen.
So happy to see new life, and new collaboration, really looking forward to
Berlin. ❤❤❤

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 2:57 pm "Michael J. Oghia", <
governance at lists.riseup.net> wrote:

> Hi Matthias and Cathleen (in BCC),
>
> Thank you so much for this offer and for you support, it's really
> appreciated. In case you all decide to host side events as well, please do
> let us know. It's always a pleasure to support the incredible work Mozilla
> does!
>
> Best,
> -Michael
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 3:54 PM Matthias Spielkamp | AlgorithmWatch <
> ms at algorithmwatch.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Mozilla's Cathleen Berger asked me to share this with you since she's
>> not on this list:
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> And thanks Michael for flagging this.
>> While this doesn't solve the underlying issue, I do want to offer up our
>> Mozilla Berlin event space as a spill-over location -- so anyone who is
>> in town for IGF, but either can't get to the venue or wasn't able to
>> register would be welcome to watch the sessions from our space, we'll
>> also looking into setting it up for remote participation with the IGF.
>> I'm happy to share an event invite a couple of weeks ahead of IGF, so
>> for those of you interested -- more coming in early November.
>>
>> Warmly,
>> Cathleen
>>
>> All the best
>> Matthias
>>
>> On 10.09.19 20:26, Tapani Tarvainen wrote:
>> > Hi Farzaneh,
>> >
>> > I'm not disagreeing with you insofar as current situation is in
>> practice.
>> >
>> > But I'm trying to look at it at another angle. Human-made rules are
>> > not carved in stone, not even UN ones, and there's no explicit,
>> > all-encompassing rule in the UN saying a passport is needed at all UN
>> > events, even if it is currently common practice. Or if there is (I'd
>> > love a pointer) exceptions have been made before.
>> >
>> > And, Lessig to the contrary notwithstanding, web forms are not law and
>> > they can be worked around if there's a good case for it and enough
>> > political will. For UN rules if any are political, not technical.
>> >
>> > Now I don't expect that'll happen in this case, certainly not this
>> > year. But making an effort, even if a small one, might nudge things a
>> > little in the right direction. And when everything is said and done, I
>> > tend to think it'd be just a smidgen easier to make UN relax its rules
>> > than your (admittedly preferable) solution of abolishing nation
>> > states. :-)
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Tapani
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 09, 2019 at 09:17:17AM -0400, farzaneh badii (
>> governance at lists.riseup.net) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Tapani
>> >>
>> >> Any person who holds a passport from a non-UN member state and do not
>> have
>> >> another passport (Chinese or American or European) cannot register and
>> >> participate at the UN. Been a known problem. Yes you need to specify
>> the
>> >> country which has issued your passport. Taiwan is not among the
>> countries
>> >> listed to choose from because of the UN policy. If you can't register
>> you
>> >> can't go. And it's not only about Taiwan. And UN rules unfortunately
>> >> overcome IGF rules. It's a UN conference, UN protocol.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 8:49 AM Tapani Tarvainen <
>> tapani.tarvainen at effi.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Actually you do not need to identify your nationality, you only
>> >>> need to specify the origin of your passport.
>> >>>
>> >>> And that could be challenged on the grounds that guidelines do not
>> >>> insist on people having a passport. After all technical limitations on
>> >>> the website can't override actual policy. I think they just might give
>> >>> in on that if someone wanted to attend with a credible reason for not
>> >>> having a passport but had another type of picture ID.
>> >>>
>> >>> They guidelines also state that the IGF welcomes "the participation of
>> >>> all stakeholders..." and "participant status shall be provided to any
>> >>> individual who fulfills the requirements" without any qualification as
>> >>> to nationality that I can see.
>> >>>
>> >>> And Taiwanese can enter Germany with their own passport, without
>> >>> even needing a visa.
>> >>>
>> >>> So if a Taiwanese had a picture ID issued by a state recognised by UN
>> >>> they should be able to attend. I presume "recognized" there includes
>> >>> observer countries like Palestine and Vatican (which, incidentally,
>> >>> maintains diplomatic relations with Taiwan).
>> >>>
>> >>> Hmm.
>> >>>
>> >>> Tapani
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sep 09 08:11, farzaneh badii (farzaneh.badii at gmail.com) wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> You have to identify your nationality on the form to register. Last
>> time
>> >>> I
>> >>>> checked Taiwan wasn't listed. Also not all passports arecprvileged
>> enough
>> >>>> to just pop into another country with without a visa. So I wonder if
>> >>> they'd
>> >>>> even get a visa letter.. Maybe if they are physically in the host
>> city
>> >>> ...
>> >>>> But if not ...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 7:58 AM Tapani Tarvainen <
>> >>> tapani.tarvainen at effi.org>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I don't think the issue here is travel: Taiwanese passport is good
>> >>>>> enough to travel almost everywhere, it's just not accepted for IGF
>> >>>>> registration.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Actually I find it curious that a passport is required at all for
>> IGF.
>> >>>>> After all quite a few people could travel to Berlin without one: not
>> >>>>> only all Germans but everybody in the Schengen zone as well.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Although the guidelines only talk about "picture ID", even if the
>> >>>>> account creation form wants passport... has anybody tried to use
>> >>>>> another type of ID?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> (Yeah, getting rid of nation states would solve this problem. I fear
>> >>>>> we won't get it done in time for this year's IGF though.)
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Tapani
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Sep 07 14:35, farzaneh badii (governance at lists.riseup.net)
>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> E-citizenship doesnt give you a passport to travel. The only
>> >>> solution is
>> >>>>> to
>> >>>>>> get rid of the concept of nation states and treat people as people
>> >>> and
>> >>>>> not
>> >>>>>> clans.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 2:23 PM Bill Woodcock <woody at pch.net>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Estonian E-citizenships, perhaps?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Doesn’t solve the problem, but it’s a work-around.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>                 -Bill
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Sep 6, 2019, at 01:52, Michael J. Oghia (via governance Mailing
>> >>>>> List) <
>> >>>>>>> governance at lists.riseup.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hi Ian,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Thanks so much for this thoughtful response, and indeed, I sent it
>> >>> in
>> >>>>>>> frustration. I realise, however, that this issue goes way beyond
>> >>> the
>> >>>>> IGF.
>> >>>>>>> Moreover, since a member of the Chinese government is a member of
>> >>> the
>> >>>>> MAG,
>> >>>>>>> I seriously doubt the MAG would even be open to discussing it.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The point you raise about stateless individuals is an interesting
>> >>> one,
>> >>>>>>> though, as I don't know what the protocol is for that. Taiwan
>> >>> nationals
>> >>>>>>> clearly aren't stateless, though, so those are two separate points
>> >>>>>>> (regardless, I still recommend the IGF develop a procedure for
>> >>>>> including
>> >>>>>>> stateless individuals/groups).
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> It seems this is an injustice that will have to pursue, and she
>> can
>> >>>>> attend
>> >>>>>>> remotely if interested.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>>> -Michael
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:46 AM ian.peter at ianpeter.com <
>> >>>>>>> ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I wish there was an easy answer to this Michael.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> But as I understand it, we are dealing with a whole-of-UN
>> >>> problem, not
>> >>>>>>>> just an IGF one. For whatever historic reasons, and they are to
>> do
>> >>>>> with
>> >>>>>>>> recognition of the Peoples Republic of China, Taiwan is not
>> >>>>> recognised by
>> >>>>>>>> the UN as a nation state - although they would like to be and
>> >>> have a
>> >>>>> few
>> >>>>>>>> allies pushing their cause.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I believe it goes back to 1971. China's attitude has been "The
>> >>> *United
>> >>>>>>>> Nations* is an international organization composed of sovereign
>> >>>>> states.
>> >>>>>>>> *Taiwan* as a province of China is completely *not* qualified and
>> >>> *has
>> >>>>>>>> no* right to participate in it. Due to the well-known reasons,
>> the
>> >>>>>>>> *Taiwan* authorities illegally usurped China's *UN* seat for as
>> >>> long
>> >>>>> as
>> >>>>>>>> 22 years" (http://ae.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/twwt/t150866.htm)
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> But having said that - others might be able to provide more
>> >>>>> background -
>> >>>>>>>> since IGF is not a meeting of nation states, but also includes
>> >>> civil
>> >>>>>>>> society and other stakeholders, one would think there might  be a
>> >>> way
>> >>>>>>>> around it. Yes, to register one needs a passport - maybe an ally
>> >>> of
>> >>>>> Taiwan
>> >>>>>>>> would be prepared to issue passports or acceptab;e documents for
>> >>>>> Taiwanese
>> >>>>>>>> citizens?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I don't know how we could get around this, just brainstorming. In
>> >>> an
>> >>>>>>>> ideal IGF, stateless people would have a voice and be able to
>> >>> attend,
>> >>>>>>>> subject of course to standard security clearances. Maybe MAG
>> could
>> >>>>> explore
>> >>>>>>>> this?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Ian Peter
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>> >>>>>>>> From: "Michael J. Oghia" <governance at lists.riseup.net>
>> >>>>>>>> To: "IGC" <governance at lists.riseup.net>
>> >>>>>>>> Sent: 6/09/2019 5:49:07 PM
>> >>>>>>>> Subject: [governance] Taiwanese nationals and the IGF
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I'd like to raise a serious concern I have regarding the IGF. A
>> >>>>> contact
>> >>>>>>>> of mine in Taiwan is having trouble registering for the IGF. She
>> >>>>> solely has
>> >>>>>>>> a Taiwanese passport, but the IGF, as a UN event, can only
>> >>> register
>> >>>>>>>> individuals who have a passport from a UN member state (of which
>> >>>>> Taiwan is
>> >>>>>>>> not a member). I checked with the IGF Secretariat, and
>> >>> unfortunately,
>> >>>>>>>> there's not much they can do about it.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I know that the politics surrounding China and Taiwan are
>> >>> contentious,
>> >>>>>>>> however, this essentially means that she (and anyone else) from
>> >>>>> Taiwan –
>> >>>>>>>> more than 23.5 million people – are essentially barred from
>> >>> attending
>> >>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> IGF if they don't have another passport.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I find this *deeply problematic* and in violation of the
>> >>> fundamental
>> >>>>>>>> principles of the multi-stakeholder model, namely the fact that
>> >>> it's
>> >>>>> meant
>> >>>>>>>> to be inclusive and open to all.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Has anyone encountered this problem in the past, either in the IG
>> >>>>> sector
>> >>>>>>>> or another development sector? Does anyone have ideas for how it
>> >>> can
>> >>>>> be
>> >>>>>>>> resolved? I'm well aware this is not the first instance of a
>> >>> Taiwanese
>> >>>>>>>> national being excluded from participation in a global event, so
>> >>>>> perhaps
>> >>>>>>>> this is a moot point and no one can help. Still, it still strikes
>> >>> me
>> >>>>> as
>> >>>>>>>> incredibly unjust and unfair that regional politics would prevent
>> >>>>>>>> individuals from attending the IGF.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>>>> -Michael
>> >>>>>>>> __________________
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Michael J. Oghia | Advocacy & Engagement Manager
>> >>>>>>>> Global Forum for Media Development (GFMD <https://gfmd.info>)
>> >>>>>>>> Belgrade, Serbia | Twitter <https://www.twitter.com/MikeOghia> |
>> >>>>> LinkedIn
>> >>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeoghia>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> ---
>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: <mailto:igc-unsubscribe at lists.riseup.net
>> >>>>>>> <igc-unsubscribe at lists.riseup.net>>
>> >>>>>>> List help: <https://riseup.net/lists>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ---
>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: <mailto:igc-unsubscribe at lists.riseup.net>
>> >>>>>>> List help: <https://riseup.net/lists>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> Farzaneh
>> >>>>> ---
>> >>>>> To unsubscribe: <mailto:igc-unsubscribe at lists.riseup.net>
>> >>>>> List help: <https://riseup.net/lists>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Farzaneh
>> >>> ---
>> >>> To unsubscribe: <mailto:igc-unsubscribe at lists.riseup.net>
>> >>> List help: <https://riseup.net/lists>
>> >>>
>> >> --
>> >> Farzaneh
>> >
>> >> ---
>> >> To unsubscribe: <mailto:igc-unsubscribe at lists.riseup.net>
>> >> List help: <https://riseup.net/lists>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > This body part will be downloaded on demand.
>> >
>>
>> --
>>
>> Matthias Spielkamp
>>
>> --
>>
>> Matthias Spielkamp
>> Executive Director
>> http://algorithmwatch.org/
>> ms at algorithmwatch.org
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