[governance] ICANN/FIFA

Gideon gideonrop at gmail.com
Fri May 29 10:06:50 EDT 2015 

FYI. ICANN/FIFA Parallel Analysis,


"No Legal Basis for IANA Transition": A Post-Mortem Analysis of Senate
Committee Hearing:
http://www.circleid.com/posts/20150309_no_legal_basis_for_iana_transition_post_mortem_senate_hearing/


Gideon Rop
DotConnectAfrica

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I would have thought the interesting issue to address is how corruption
> flourishes in systems where accountability is only through and to insiders
> and where those insiders control very significant resources which they can
> use corruptly or no to manipulate the systems to ensure their impunity and
> continuity—i.e. closed loops with no external structures of accountability
> (as for example are achievable in many instances through effective
> democratic processes). If the shoes fit, perhaps they should be worn.
>
>
>
> The peroration’s concerning the ITU, the UN and uncle Tom Cobley are of
> course complete red herrings.
>
>
>
> M
>
>
>
> David Cake [mailto:dave at difference.com.au]
> *Sent:* May 29, 2015 10:45 AM
> *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Jean-Christophe Nothias
> *Cc:* Michael Gurstein; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; Jeremy Malcolm
> *Subject:* Re: [governance] ICANN/FIFA
>
>
>
>
>
> On 29 May 2015, at 3:55 pm, Jean-Christophe Nothias <
> jeanchristophe.nothias at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> - *David* (Cake)
>
> > Corruption has little to do with a system based on national
> representation. Study, source? I mean more than within the private sector,
> or any other space.
>
>
>
>             I was simply pointing out that FIFA is based on a system of
> direct voting based on national representatives. In this it somewhat
> loosely resembles, say, some ITU processes, more so than multi-stakeholder
> processes. I’m simply saying that neither recorded direct voting or a
> system based only on gatekeepered national representatives have prevented
> significant corruption in this case.
>
>             Some prominent JNC members have been quite explicit in saying
> that they prefer the UN or ITU model, in which ultimate decision making,
> and in particular selection of senior officials, goes to a direct ballot in
> which each nation has a single vote. Notably FIFA uses a similar model. And
> is allegedly, despite a massive corruption scandal, about to re-select the
> same leadership. In particular, an administration very unpopular with large
> nations in Western Europe (though popular with some other large nations,
> like Russia) is likely to be re-elected by votes from a large number of
> small nations. I’m not implying that the voting model always leads to
> flawed results (of course there are many other factors), but FIFA certainly
> represents an obvious counter-example to claims it prevents corruption, and
> has some parallels to criticisms often made of UN processes.
>
>
>
>             In short, if there is, as Michael contends, some lesson to be
> learnt from FIFA in regards to the IANA transition and ICANN it is this -
> be wary of a 1 vote per nation, UN style, model, as if anything it
> increases accountability and transparency issues. Those of us within ICANN
> have already seen this time and again in the ICANN GAC.
>
>
>
> > Thanks for acknowledging that "accountability and TRANSPARENCY are
> important factors". Maybe Jeremy should talk to you about this, as he has
> difficulties to talk to JNC about such critical issue.
>
>
>
>             Within ICANN, transparency per se is an issue, but the
> biggest transparency issue is accountability not transparency -
> transparency standards are generally quite high, but the accountability
> mechanisms are lacking to enforce them when they are really needed. In most
> ICANN policy processes, every meeting is open to anyone to listen, is
> recorded, recordings and transcripts are made available, every full
> participant has lodged an SOI, and so one. But yet when you might to find
> out which senior staff member made a particular dubious decision, suddenly
> the staff will have difficulty finding those documents or similar.
>
>             I don’t think this invalidates Jeremy’s critique of
> Parminders plan. NGOs are participants, not management. I agree the
> suggested mechanism through CSCG is inappropriate. I think there are other,
> more appropriate, mechanisms for NGO transparency. And like many others, I
> suspect that the results of the process will be an excuse for the JNC to
> continue to focus on matters internal to CS, lambasting those of us who
> dare to be funded by those Parminder dislikes (the US government and
> corporations), if anything actively interfering with the ability of CS to
> actively engage in the IG space. Not that I think transparency is bad - my
> own org publishes its accounts, as do many others - but it seems a poorly
> thought out proposal that puts the focus on the wrong place (on the
> ‘purity’ of CS participants, rather than accountability and transparency
> within IG decision making processes themselves).
>
>
>
> > JNC focusing on games at "democracy"? JNC has called for more
> transparency among participants to the current IG space: would that be
> playing game or would it be "focusing on the practical push for
> accountability..." Not sure who is getting confused here.
>
>
>
>             I was assuming we all had the level of perspective to
> consider discussions had within, say, the last couple of months. Or even,
> when discussing the IANA transition process, to understand that I was
> referring to actions made over the entire IANA transition process, not
> comments made on the IGC list on a different topic in the last few days.
> Apparently not. So let me clarify - when I was talking about
> accountability, I was referring specifically to accountability of
> ICANN/IANA, that being the topic Michael brought up, not the accountability
> of civil society organisations, that being an entirely different subject
> brought up by Parminder.
>
>             FWIW, I find it sadly quite typical of the dynamics of this
> list that we have had so very little discussion of the accountability
> aspects of IANA and ICANN here (major, significant efforts
>
>
>
>
>
> > JNC has been fighting over the introduction of a democratic pulse within
> IG.
>
>
>
>             Wel, they’ve certainly been fighting over the inclusion of
> the word ‘democracy’ in some statements. Whether or not that amounts to the
> same thing as ‘introduction of a democratic pulse’ is probably something on
> which there is significant disagreement.
>
>
>
> I see JNC has deserving recognition for that. Is fighting for democratic
> principles within a social community of public interest (IG) a "game", or
> isn't more simply part of the political debate (democracy) and the need for
> a different Internet governance (out of US domination by its public and
> private leadership)
>
>
>
>             Or perhaps JNC is fighting to have democratic principles
> interpreted in the means of its choosing. I certainly feel that I am
> fighting for democratic principles (or at least, transparency,
> accountability, inclusion, openness, and human rights), but most JNC
> members seem to feel that I am misguided and should perhaps be fighting for
> things such as a stronger representation of government (in the hopes that
> that naturally equates to democracy), or processes that are less inclusive
> of actors they dislike (such as those representing commercial interests).
>
>
>
> Everyone can take the lessons he wants to take.
>
>
>
>             Indeed.
>
>
>
>             David
>
>
>
> JC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Le 29 mai 2015 à 09:26, Kleinwächter, Wolfgang a écrit :
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> one lesson is that the service a group delivers has to be linked to strong
> accountability mechanism. Insofar, ICANNs Accountability discussion, which
> has started last year as an open, transparent and bottom up process with
> the involvement of all stakeholders is a key for ICANN´s future and the
> good service people expect from ICANN. BTW, FIFA operates under Swiss
> jurisdiction. ;-(((.
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
>
> :------Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org im Auftrag von David Cake
> Gesendet: Fr 29.05.2015 09:06
> An: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Michael Gurstein
> Betreff: Re: [governance] ICANN/FIFA
>
> Obviously those who are more familiar with ICANN and FIFA would probably
> point out that the parallels are really not very strong. They are both
> international organisations that are non-government, but otherwise they are
> very different. FIFA is an association of national associations, ICANN is
> not.
>
> But it is a timely reminder for the need for strong accountability
> mechanisms. Which is probably why many of the ICANN engaged people on this
> list have been relatively quiet over the last year, as many of them have
> been involved either with the IANA transition (which has been very much
> concerned with structural accountability issues - how ICANN can be made
> responsible to those who, directly or indirectly, use IANA) or the
> accompanying accountability process (which is focussed on broader
> accountability issues with ICANN).
> (I myself have not been strongly involved with those processes, but I know
> Avri, Robin, Milton, and others have been spending many hours every week,
> which is probably why I sometimes have time to respond to cheap shots like
> this one).
>
> But if you'd like a few lessons that might be drawn:
> direct voting on a national representative basis is absolutely no defence
> against corruption.
> From which we might presume that accountability and transparency are more
> important factors in preventing corruption. Perhaps JNC might consider
> shifting its focus from games about the word 'democracy' and focus on the
> practical push for the accountability and transparency mechanisms that are
> a vital part of any democratic process.
>
> Regards
>
>             David
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 29 May 2015, at 2:13 pm, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> As I watch along with I'm sure many others, the events consuming FIFA I am
> of course, reminded of the often made parallels between FIFA and ICANN,
> particularly in reference to proposed models for governance of global
> non-governmental organizations as for example in the area of accountability.
>
>
>
> So, I'm wondering from among with those with far more knowledge concerning
> ICANN than myself, what lessons if any might one draw from what is being
> exposed concerning FIFA and how might that figure into what if anything
> will be an outcome of the current IANA transition discussions?
>
>
>
> M
>
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