[governance] ICANN/FIFA

Michael Gurstein gurstein at gmail.com
Fri May 29 08:28:21 EDT 2015 

I would have thought the interesting issue to address is how corruption
flourishes in systems where accountability is only through and to insiders
and where those insiders control very significant resources which they can
use corruptly or no to manipulate the systems to ensure their impunity and
continuity—i.e. closed loops with no external structures of accountability
(as for example are achievable in many instances through effective
democratic processes). If the shoes fit, perhaps they should be worn.

 

The peroration’s concerning the ITU, the UN and uncle Tom Cobley are of
course complete red herrings.

 

M

 

David Cake [mailto:dave at difference.com.au] 
Sent: May 29, 2015 10:45 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Jean-Christophe Nothias
Cc: Michael Gurstein; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; Jeremy Malcolm
Subject: Re: [governance] ICANN/FIFA

 

 

On 29 May 2015, at 3:55 pm, Jean-Christophe Nothias
<jeanchristophe.nothias at gmail.com <mailto:jeanchristophe.nothias at gmail.com>
> wrote:

- David (Cake)

> Corruption has little to do with a system based on national
representation. Study, source? I mean more than within the private sector,
or any other space.

 

            I was simply pointing out that FIFA is based on a system of
direct voting based on national representatives. In this it somewhat loosely
resembles, say, some ITU processes, more so than multi-stakeholder
processes. I’m simply saying that neither recorded direct voting or a system
based only on gatekeepered national representatives have prevented
significant corruption in this case. 

            Some prominent JNC members have been quite explicit in saying
that they prefer the UN or ITU model, in which ultimate decision making, and
in particular selection of senior officials, goes to a direct ballot in
which each nation has a single vote. Notably FIFA uses a similar model. And
is allegedly, despite a massive corruption scandal, about to re-select the
same leadership. In particular, an administration very unpopular with large
nations in Western Europe (though popular with some other large nations,
like Russia) is likely to be re-elected by votes from a large number of
small nations. I’m not implying that the voting model always leads to flawed
results (of course there are many other factors), but FIFA certainly
represents an obvious counter-example to claims it prevents corruption, and
has some parallels to criticisms often made of UN processes. 

 

            In short, if there is, as Michael contends, some lesson to be
learnt from FIFA in regards to the IANA transition and ICANN it is this - be
wary of a 1 vote per nation, UN style, model, as if anything it increases
accountability and transparency issues. Those of us within ICANN have
already seen this time and again in the ICANN GAC. 





> Thanks for acknowledging that "accountability and TRANSPARENCY are
important factors". Maybe Jeremy should talk to you about this, as he has
difficulties to talk to JNC about such critical issue.

 

            Within ICANN, transparency per se is an issue, but the biggest
transparency issue is accountability not transparency - transparency
standards are generally quite high, but the accountability mechanisms are
lacking to enforce them when they are really needed. In most ICANN policy
processes, every meeting is open to anyone to listen, is recorded,
recordings and transcripts are made available, every full participant has
lodged an SOI, and so one. But yet when you might to find out which senior
staff member made a particular dubious decision, suddenly the staff will
have difficulty finding those documents or similar. 

            I don’t think this invalidates Jeremy’s critique of Parminders
plan. NGOs are participants, not management. I agree the suggested mechanism
through CSCG is inappropriate. I think there are other, more appropriate,
mechanisms for NGO transparency. And like many others, I suspect that the
results of the process will be an excuse for the JNC to continue to focus on
matters internal to CS, lambasting those of us who dare to be funded by
those Parminder dislikes (the US government and corporations), if anything
actively interfering with the ability of CS to actively engage in the IG
space. Not that I think transparency is bad - my own org publishes its
accounts, as do many others - but it seems a poorly thought out proposal
that puts the focus on the wrong place (on the ‘purity’ of CS participants,
rather than accountability and transparency within IG decision making
processes themselves). 





> JNC focusing on games at "democracy"? JNC has called for more transparency
among participants to the current IG space: would that be playing game or
would it be "focusing on the practical push for accountability..." Not sure
who is getting confused here.

 

            I was assuming we all had the level of perspective to consider
discussions had within, say, the last couple of months. Or even, when
discussing the IANA transition process, to understand that I was referring
to actions made over the entire IANA transition process, not comments made
on the IGC list on a different topic in the last few days. Apparently not.
So let me clarify - when I was talking about accountability, I was referring
specifically to accountability of ICANN/IANA, that being the topic Michael
brought up, not the accountability of civil society organisations, that
being an entirely different subject brought up by Parminder. 

            FWIW, I find it sadly quite typical of the dynamics of this list
that we have had so very little discussion of the accountability aspects of
IANA and ICANN here (major, significant efforts

            

 

> JNC has been fighting over the introduction of a democratic pulse within
IG.

            

            Wel, they’ve certainly been fighting over the inclusion of the
word ‘democracy’ in some statements. Whether or not that amounts to the same
thing as ‘introduction of a democratic pulse’ is probably something on which
there is significant disagreement. 





I see JNC has deserving recognition for that. Is fighting for democratic
principles within a social community of public interest (IG) a "game", or
isn't more simply part of the political debate (democracy) and the need for
a different Internet governance (out of US domination by its public and
private leadership)

 

            Or perhaps JNC is fighting to have democratic principles
interpreted in the means of its choosing. I certainly feel that I am
fighting for democratic principles (or at least, transparency,
accountability, inclusion, openness, and human rights), but most JNC members
seem to feel that I am misguided and should perhaps be fighting for things
such as a stronger representation of government (in the hopes that that
naturally equates to democracy), or processes that are less inclusive of
actors they dislike (such as those representing commercial interests). 





Everyone can take the lessons he wants to take.

 

            Indeed. 

            

            David



 

JC

 

 

 

 

 

 

Le 29 mai 2015 à 09:26, Kleinwächter, Wolfgang a écrit :





Hi,

one lesson is that the service a group delivers has to be linked to strong
accountability mechanism. Insofar, ICANNs Accountability discussion, which
has started last year as an open, transparent and bottom up process with the
involvement of all stakeholders is a key for ICANN´s future and the good
service people expect from ICANN. BTW, FIFA operates under Swiss
jurisdiction. ;-(((.

Wolfgang



:------Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
<mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>  im Auftrag von David Cake
Gesendet: Fr 29.05.2015 09:06
An: governance at lists.igcaucus.org <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org> ;
Michael Gurstein
Betreff: Re: [governance] ICANN/FIFA

Obviously those who are more familiar with ICANN and FIFA would probably
point out that the parallels are really not very strong. They are both
international organisations that are non-government, but otherwise they are
very different. FIFA is an association of national associations, ICANN is
not.

But it is a timely reminder for the need for strong accountability
mechanisms. Which is probably why many of the ICANN engaged people on this
list have been relatively quiet over the last year, as many of them have
been involved either with the IANA transition (which has been very much
concerned with structural accountability issues - how ICANN can be made
responsible to those who, directly or indirectly, use IANA) or the
accompanying accountability process (which is focussed on broader
accountability issues with ICANN).
(I myself have not been strongly involved with those processes, but I know
Avri, Robin, Milton, and others have been spending many hours every week,
which is probably why I sometimes have time to respond to cheap shots like
this one).

But if you'd like a few lessons that might be drawn:
direct voting on a national representative basis is absolutely no defence
against corruption.
>From which we might presume that accountability and transparency are more
important factors in preventing corruption. Perhaps JNC might consider
shifting its focus from games about the word 'democracy' and focus on the
practical push for the accountability and transparency mechanisms that are a
vital part of any democratic process.

Regards

            David








On 29 May 2015, at 2:13 pm, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com
<mailto:gurstein at gmail.com> > wrote:

 

As I watch along with I'm sure many others, the events consuming FIFA I am
of course, reminded of the often made parallels between FIFA and ICANN,
particularly in reference to proposed models for governance of global
non-governmental organizations as for example in the area of accountability.

 

So, I'm wondering from among with those with far more knowledge concerning
ICANN than myself, what lessons if any might one draw from what is being
exposed concerning FIFA and how might that figure into what if anything will
be an outcome of the current IANA transition discussions?

 

M

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