[governance] [Internet Policy] The Wuzhen Initiative & Fadi
Michael Gurstein
gurstein at gmail.com
Mon Dec 21 15:28:17 EST 2015
Thanks for this most interesting and useful document Wolfgang.
However, I read it and even reread it looking for any reference to
"democracy" as a principle for Internet Governance (if only aspirational),
perhaps in tandem with "human rights" which the events (and you) seem to
have covered quite effectively.
Was the notion of democratic governance never discussed in any of these
three events and if not, surely you as a scholar in the area of Global
Governance might be expected to note this as an absence worthy of comment.
Tks,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: InternetPolicy [mailto:internetpolicy-bounces at elists.isoc.org] On
Behalf Of "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"
Sent: December 21, 2015 11:07 AM
To: Frank, Carl <CFrank at wileyrein.com>; Nick Ashton-Hart
<nashton at consensus.pro>
Cc: internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org
Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] The Wuzhen Initiative & Fadi
Hi
FYI, here is hiw I see Wuzhen:
http://www.circleid.com/members/5851/
Wolfgang
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: InternetPolicy im Auftrag von Frank, Carl
Gesendet: Mo 21.12.2015 09:09
An: Nick Ashton-Hart
Cc: internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org
Betreff: Re: [Internet Policy] The Wuzhen Initiative & Fadi
Nick: +1
Carl R. Frank
1776 K St NW
Washington DC 20006
USA
O + 1 202 719-7269
F + 1 202 719-7049
> On Dec 21, 2015, at 3:04 AM, Nick Ashton-Hart <nashton at consensus.pro>
wrote:
>
> Dear Paul,
>
> Thanks for your time in replying.
>
> Let me start by saying that I understand the various caveats that you
outline below related to the language in the document associated with the
conference.
>
> Secondly, it is your view that it is false to suggest that agreeing to be
involved in the outcome process of Wuzhen has no connection to the language
the hosts have proposed for the initiative. Of course it is your prerogative
to do that, but I simply don't believe that's true: that language is clearly
stated as being proposed as the underpinnings of the initiative itself.
Those of you who participate in it MAY be able to change it over the course
of time, but we have to accept that the starting place is what is stated in
the text, very clearly.
>
> If you are agreeing to be a part of a process which has a proposed
foundation, which is the case for Fadi here (and the others presumably) then
the reality is that you can expect the outside world to see you as
identified with that process, and the process identified with the starting
language.
>
> Let me be clear. The language in that document - and in specific the lack
of the term 'multistakeholder' - is exactly what countries like China,
Russia, and others (you can fill in the blanks) were pushing very hard for
in the WSIS negotiations. It was an extreme effort into the early hours to
keep that language out and end up with the balanced paragraphs we have now..
The language on state sovereignty in the Wuzhen document is also in the same
category: a very heavy lift by a lot of people to prevent that really
harmful construction from remaining in the WSIS outcome.
>
> Fadi - and anyone else who chose to be a part of the outcome process of
Wuzhen - could have chosen to say that they would be a part of a process
which would come up with a document with the elements in the declaration.
However, instead, they climbed aboard the Wuzhen process despite it starting
from a terrible, terrible place.
>
> I'm sorry, I respect the hell out of you Paul, but on this whole business
we must agree to disagree. I believe it is entirely reasonable for the
initiative to be associated with a document whose language is clearly
intended by the hosts for that association to be made. I also believe that
it was entirely inappropriate for Fadi to fly directly from New York to
Wuzhen and so visibly be connected with an initiative that is itself so
connected to such toxic language. He is extremely well-aware of how toxic
the language in that text is and of what it took to keep it out of WSIS as
Veni was on delegation to the negotiations, as was I. Saying that he'll be
involved only in his personal capacity when he was clearly invited to speak
at Wuzhen solely because he's ICANN CEO only makes the situation worse.
>
> Finally, I find it hard to believe that the timing of the Wuzhen summit
was accidental in entirely overlapping with WSIS+10 in New York, given that
Wuzhen was organised after the WSIS+10 dates were announced. I find it
simply impossible to believe that the fact that the language presented in
the Wuzhen outcome accidentally contained the very same toxic linguistic
constructions that we have all fought so hard to get away from for a decade
or longer.
>
> I think everyone here understands what China's view of open networks, and
all that goes along with it, really is: it isn't as if they're not pretty
open about it. If you believe that you can help to change their view by
participating in Wuzhen, that's great! Engagement is important. However,
lets all do it with our eyes open as to what that government's current
motivations really are - and it isn't a multistakeholder, human-rights and
people-centred Internet. Its an Orwellian one.
>
>
>> On 21 Dec 2015, at 03:18, Paul Wilson <pwilson at apnic.net> wrote:
>>
>> With respect Nick, this is a serious misunderstanding and
misrepresentation of what happened.
>>
>> The "Wuzhen initiative" is a statement by the WIC Secretariat, and not an
outcome of the conference in any way. It was not presented to the
conference, or even announced during the conference; it was released
afterwards. And I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise, except
mistakenly or with malice.
>>
>> The "High-level Advisory Committee" (HAC) did not produce the document.
We were called to a meeting where the document was presented to us, and we
gave our advice. The result of that discussion was positive: ensuring that
the document was not presented as a result of the conference, or as any kind
of "declaration" (which was on the cards initially), but rather as an
initiative of the Secretariat.
>>
>> There was limited discussion with the HAC on the content of the
document.. Of a few contributions in the time available, I made a strong
but unsuccessful case that the "multistakeholder" should replace
"multilateral" in the 5th clause; the counterargument was that the words
used came from WSIS and are therefore acceptable, while at the same time the
document does recognise the full range of stakeholders. (To be clear: the
WSIS+10 documentation was not available at the time of this discussion; but
we do now have a good precedent to bring in the WSIS+10 result at the next
opportunity.)
>>
>> Finally, it's completely false, and quite outrageous frankly, to claim
that Fadi endorsed any language in the WIC meeting; when as I said the
document was not even released until after the meeting. As for claims of
abuse and personal benefits, those are unjustified and completely unfair.
>>
>> This is not a good time to be subscribing to rumours and spinning up
false stories, so I hope we can return to a rational discussion of Wuzhen
and put it in a proper perspective.
>>
>> Paul.
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 20 Dec 2015, at 18:28, Nick Ashton-Hart wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Joly, and others,
>>>
>>> From my perspective, Fadi went from the WSIS+10 Summit - where
negotiators spent three nights until 0300 fighting to ensure
multistakeholderism wasn't downgraded - to Wuzhen and endorsed the exact
language we all fought so hard to get rid of in front of hundreds of
millions of Chinese.
>>>
>>> What he did is frankly shameful and undermines what so many of us in
the WSIS process have fought so hard for. The idea that he's doing this in
his personal capacity is risible; he'd never have been offered a speaking
slot in that capacity, only as ICANN's CEO.
>>>
>>> What he did is an abuse of his position and as far as I can tell
entirely to benefit himself. It certainly doesn't benefit the Internet he
claims to care so much about.
>>>
>>>> On 20 Dec 2015, at 00:12, Joly MacFie <joly at punkcast.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Was there mention of anything approaching multistakeholderism? What
issues were to the fore?
>>>>
>>>> j
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 6:04 PM, TH Schee <schee at fertta.com
<mailto:schee at fertta.com>> wrote:
>>>> The initiative has been particularly powerful in China with regard to
introducing of the whole idea around internet governance, given the Summit
has been broadcasted all over CCTVs last week. The Wuzhen Initiative has
effectively serve as the cornerstone of understanding for, say, if not a
billion, hundreds of millions of people.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 6:56 AM, Joly MacFie <joly at punkcast.com
<mailto:joly at punkcast.com>> wrote:
>>>>
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/12/18/ex_icann_ceo_will_work_with_china/
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/12/18/ex_icann_ceo_will_work_with_china/>
>>>> The official outline for the Wuzhen Initiative - designed by the
High-Level Advisory Committee (HAC) that Chehade now co-chairs - appears
harmless enough but contains what internet governance experts will
immediately recognize as troubling efforts to legitimize online censorship.
>>>>
>>>> The second point of five guiding principles is "Fostering cultural
diversity in the cyberspace." The fourth is "Ensuring peace and security in
cyberspace," and the last is "Improving the global Internet governance."
>>>>
>>>> The document <http://www.wuzhenwic.org/2015-12/18/c_48241.htm> notes
the "importance of respect for nations' sovereignty in cyberspace" and
specifically fails to use the term "multi-stakeholder" in the context of
internet governance, instead opting for the loaded term "multilateral,"
which is code for putting governments in overall control.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 <tel:218%20565%209365> Skype:punkcast
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> TH Schee | M: +1-646-820-0002 <tel:%2B1-646-820-0002> | @scheeinfo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -
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>>
>> ________________________________________________________________________
>> Paul Wilson, Director-General, APNIC dg at apnic.net
>> http://www.apnic.net @apnicdg
>
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