[governance] RE: [discuss] Celebrating CS gains through MSism was RE: Comcast undertakes 9 year IETF cosponsorship!?

Tue Mar 25 14:46:29 EDT 2014

Seun,

I and several others have been asking for some elaboration as to some
specifics concerning the Multistakeholder model that is being so widely and
actively promoted.  

We are still waiting.

M

From: Seun Ojedeji [mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 6:27 PM
To: michael gurstein
Cc: Alejandro Pisanty; Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus - IGC;
discuss at 1net.org
Subject: RE: [discuss] Celebrating CS gains through MSism was RE: Comcast
undertakes 9 year IETF cosponsorship!?

sent from Google nexus 4
kindly excuse brevity and typos.
On 25 Mar 2014 09:14, "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As a matter of fact I dont agree that multistakeholderism is the way
forward at least not in its current undefined and poorly elaborated form
>
Okay great, so what form would you propose and please don't get me wrong, I
am not saying the MSism is perfect and as a matter of fact it cannot be
perfect and no system is. However it's a platform that provide opportunity
to encourage inputs towards perfection. So we all need to be involved in
determining the processes.
>
with no evident safeguards for the public interest. 
>
When you say "public interest", whom do you refer to as MSism indeed
represents public interest. So what safeguards would you propose?

Cheers!
>  
>
> M
>
>  
>
> From: Seun Ojedeji [mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 5:01 PM
> To: michael gurstein
> Cc: Alejandro Pisanty; discuss at 1net.org; Civil Society Internet Governance
Caucus - IGC
>
> Subject: Re: [discuss] Celebrating CS gains through MSism was RE: Comcast
undertakes 9 year IETF cosponsorship!?
>
>  
>
> Hello Micheal,
>
> On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:37 AM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Seun,
>
>  
>
> Could I respectfully suggest that you do some searching in the archives of
this list and online where you will find my position on these matters,
information on the Community Informatics community and other matters in
which you seem to have an interest rather extensively presented including
through my blog.
>
>  
>
> I have in the past made my reservation about the informatics [1]. So i
would not want to go back on that unless ofcourse you say things has changed
>>
>>  
>>
>> For a very quick and dirty summary/update please see the below

>>
>>  
>
> Okay great, do find my response inset
>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> <<snip>>
>>
>> So what exactly is "multistakeholderism"? Well that isn't quite clear and
no
>> one (least of all the US State Department) has pointed to a useful
>> definition.  
>>
>> But whatever it is, a key element is that all the relevant "stakeholders"
>> including the major Internet corporations get to sit around promoting
their
>> "stakes" and making Internet policy through some sort of consensus
process
>> where all the participants have an "equal" say and where rules of things
>> like procedure, conflict of interest etc.etc. all seem to be made up as
they
>> go along.
>
>  
>
> So i can perhaps assume that you agree that multistakeholderism is the way
forward. I agree with your description of MSism and i don't think anyone
will agree less. However, what we are left with is the "HOW to" achieve a
MSism platform (in this case as it relates ICANN)
>
>  
>
> Regards
> 1. http://1net-mail.1net.org/pipermail/discuss/2014-January/000998.html
>
> PS: Filtered the list i am not subscribed to, to avoid receiving a bounce
message ;)
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nettime-l-bounces at mail.kein.org
>> [mailto:nettime-l-bounces at mail.kein.org] On Behalf Of Felix Stalder
>> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 2:59 AM
>> To: nettime-l at kein.org
>> Subject: Re: <nettime> an historic retreat
>>
>>
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> I must say, I've never really understood the politics around ICANN. That
has
>> always been too arcane for me. So I don't understand this development
>> either.
>> <...>
>>
>>
>> #  distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
>> #  <nettime>  is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
>> #  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
>> #  more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
>> #  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime at kein.org
>>
>>  
>>
>> David Farber
>>
>> Carnegie Mellon University  Adjunct Professor of Internet Studies
>> University of Pennsylvania Alfred Fitler Moore  Emeritus Professor of
Telecommunications
>>
>> University of Delaware Distinguished Policy Fellow 
>>
>> Board Member -- EFF, EPIC and ISOC
>>
>> Board Emeritus  Stevens Institute of  Technology
>>
>> Cell: +1-412-726-9889
>>
>> Google Voice: (864) 8Farber
>>
>> Email: dave at farber.net
>>
>> Public Key Fingerprint: 2133 594F 87C6 DC11 8BCD 6897 F46C 3C84 91C7 03FA
>>
>>  
>>
>> From: Seun Ojedeji [mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com] 
>> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 8:44 AM
>> To: michael gurstein
>> Cc: Alejandro Pisanty; discuss at 1net.org; governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> Subject: Re: [discuss] Celebrating CS gains through MSism was RE: Comcast
undertakes 9 year IETF cosponsorship!?
>>
>>  
>>
>> Hello Michael,
>>
>> On a serious note, at times I get confused on your views. Initially
indicate the the USG (which is basically any typical govt) is the issue that
should be removed from the process and thank goodness the USG heard and
responded positively. Now you are saying the  multistakeholder approach is
also not it, then what is the solution?
>> You are giving example of organisation you belong (which for instance I
don't know and can't find foot print of it's activities online) have you
tried to make your contribution known and was kicked back?
>> I think comments like this is what makes the whole multistakeholder
approach more complicated. I know you probably have more experience than I
do, however I think it may be good to not further complicate things for
those who are trying to understand/educate themselves through this medium.
>> It will be more constructive to read from you, what you think is the
problem and how to fix it. Than just sticking with the problem. This is why
I appreciate Milton's approach (which does not necessarily mean it's the
solution, but he has put something on the table) and I can say I learnt from
it.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> sent from Google nexus 4
>> kindly excuse brevity and typos.
>>
>> On 24 Mar 2014 23:26, "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think Alejandros note below illustrates one of the fundamental
limitations of the multistakeholder approach.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Alejandro states: this statement puts in a nutshell what never ceases to
amaze me: civil society has gained the most among all sectors from the
multistakeholder component of governance, be it Internet, finance, or the
environment. We from civil society have broken silos and gained a global
voice and unparallelled global influence, often paired with influence inside
our countries.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I dont wish to comment on the truth or falsity of this statement.
However, I would note that in the midst of the recitation of those involved
in these processes and the gains made by Civil Society interests (and
presumably others) I must ask what has happened to the public interest
i.e. the interests of all over and above the individual sectional interests;
or the interests of other non-represented groups in these processes.
>>
>>  
>>
>> For example, the Community Informatics community of which I am a part,
concerned as it with the interests of grassroots communities particularly
the marginalized, has only a partially overlapping set of
concerns/interests and particularly priorities with civil society (as
for example is indicated by the issues presented by CS in Tunis where the CS
priority was focused on Human Rights while the CI community was rather more
concerned with access and social justice issues). Given the refusal of
Civil Society to include CI and its concerns within its framework and the
refusal of those acting as stakeholder gatekeepers for current MS processes
to allow for an independent status for the CI community Alejandros
self-congratulatory statement above rings rather hollow.
>>
>>  
>>
>> But over and above this is the matter of who and how the public interest
is representedfor example in ensuring that processes are fair, transparent
and accountable and not subverted or suborned to individual or private
interests; for ensuring a necessary range of participation including among
those who might, for a variety of reasons, not be actively pursuing such
participation; for including normative diversity (including those supportive
of social justice) as well as identity based diversity; and for representing
the Internet as a global public commons among others.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I remain to be informed as to how these matters will be resolved through
the creation of a multistakeholder consensus or through the concatenation
of sectional interests which the current description of
multistakeholderism is presenting as the means by through which outcome
decisions are obtained.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>  
>>
>> From: discuss-bounces at 1net.org [mailto:discuss-bounces at 1net.org] On
Behalf Of Alejandro Pisanty
>> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 12:22 AM
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> To: parminder
>> Cc: discuss at 1net.org; governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> Subject: Re: [discuss] Comcast undertakes 9 year IETF cosponsorship!?
>>
>>  
>>
>> Parminder,
>>
>>  
>>
>> this statement puts in a nutshell what never ceases to amaze me: civil
society has gained the most among all sectors from the multistakeholder
component of governance, be it Internet, finance, or the environment. We
from civil society have broken silos and gained a global voice and
unparallelled global influence, often paired with influence inside our
countries.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Yet the position you present reverts power to governments only - e.g.
through the demand of public funding and the exclusion of private funding;
the same governments most civil society is at odds with (admittedly in very
different ways and levels.) 
>>
>>  
>>
>> I continue to find it incredibly paradoxal to have civil society leading
the effort to braid the rope with which governments would gladly hang us.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Another perplexing element of this discourse is calling the effective,
open, evolvable, broadly participatory and open multistakeholder processes
undemocratic and the multilateral and governmental "democratic", when maybe
two thirds of the world population do not consider their condition
democratic. 
>>
>>  
>>
>> The remedy to the thick suspicionism of yours and colleagues - after
stating lack of knowledge of the organizations and matters beign spoken of -
is not doing away with the multistakeholder component in favor of the
governmental or multilateral, but optimizing the combined contributions they
can make. ICANN-as-a-laboratory provides a lot of learning in this respect,
wasted by not being studied enough. And the whole framework is vital for the
NTIA functional substitution problem to hand, which these discussions have
long drifted away from.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Alejandro Pisanty
>>
>>  
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 12:59 AM, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>
wrote:
>>
>> This is what IETF's own RFC 3869 says
>>
>> "The principal thesis of this document is that if commercial funding   is
the main source of funding for future Internet research, the    future of
the Internet infrastructure could be in trouble. 
>>
>>  In    addition to issues about which projects are funded, the funding
source can also affect the content of the research, for example,   towards
or against the development of open standards, or taking
>>
>>    varying degrees of care about the effect of the developed protocols
on the other traffic on the Internet."
>>
>>
>> It is important to recognise that research is not a monopoly function,
but governance definitionally is. So, if commercial funding can distort
Internet research, it is but obviously that it has to be an absolute no no
for governance functions (standards making for something as socially
important today as the Internet, in absence of any further neutral public
oversight constitutes a governance function). 
>>
>> parminder
>>
>> On Sunday 23 March 2014 07:04 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> On 03/23/2014 01:23 AM, michael gurstein wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I personally have no idea whether what you folks and your compadres
>>>>
>>>> do/come up with is as pure as todays snowfall up on Grouse
>>>>
>>>> Mountain--or not. But the absence of a recognition of what is
>>>>
>>>> expected of you in terms of (at least formal) accountability and
>>>>
>>>> transparency and what those expectations imply is, as I said to
>>>>
>>>> John, I think a rather significant problem.
>>>
>>> Actually you said you didn't know how the IETF works.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> And I said that the sponsorship stuff is public. And
>>>
>>> all the mailing list traffic is public and open to all.
>>>
>>> I really think you're in the arena of FUD in terms of
>>>
>>> how your concern absolutely does not apply in the IETF
>>>
>>> context.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> But yet again - if you or someone is concerned go look
>>>
>>> at the facts in the public record and then come back.
>>>
>>> I am entirely sure that if something interesting were
>>>
>>> found there the IETF would discuss it to death in the
>>>
>>> same manner we do with almost everything. But I'm also
>>>
>>> pretty confident that such an examination of the IETF
>>>
>>> if done fairly would actually not show up such a problem.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> So the situation is that you don't know how the IETF works.
>>>
>>> And the IETF does (I claim, knowing something about it, but
>>>
>>> anyone can verify) act transparently with accountability.
>>>
>>> The problem it seems to me is with the first sentence in
>>>
>>> this paragraph.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> S.
>>>
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>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTLjoiAAoJEC88hzaAX42iYSYIAJONSRxs7HHtOvg+LczrOc/K
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>>> =eajt
>>>
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>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> discuss mailing list
>>>
>>> discuss at 1net.org
>>>
>>> http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>
>>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> discuss mailing list
>> discuss at 1net.org
>> http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>> -- 
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
>> Facultad de Química UNAM
>> Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
>> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475
>> Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
>> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
>> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
>> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> discuss mailing list
>> discuss at 1net.org
>> http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Seun Ojedeji,
> Federal University Oye-Ekiti
> web:      http://www.fuoye.edu.ng
> Mobile: +2348035233535
> alt email: seun.ojedeji at fuoye.edu.ng
>
>  

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