[governance] Is 'tit for tat' all that can be accomplished?

Tue Jun 11 11:54:44 EDT 2013

Good question. The principle is very large and the wording refers to *access
and use*. One could consider that extensive surveillance of foreign
correspondence is affecting use. But it may be a stretch.

Furthermore, it is clear that surveillance has usually been conducted
outside of the scope of traditional oversights and international
conventions, let alone mere recommendations like this one.

That being said, the functioning of the Internet provides much more
available data hosted on major operators and the principle of non
transboundary harm should be explored as an overall approach, or at least
the notion of responsibility for transboundary impact of national actions.

I don't know whether surveillance is intended as a topic for the fall
conference. A lot of facts regarding the current issue will have been
clarified by then.

B.

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 5:28 PM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>wrote:

> Bertrand, this seems to refer primarily to access issues rather than
> surveillance issues, or am I misinterpreting? And if I`m not, is it likely
> that the meeting being called for will deal with the surveillance issues
> that have recently come to the fore?****
>
> ** **
>
> M****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Bertrand de La Chapelle [mailto:bdelachapelle at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 10:58 AM
> *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; michael gurstein
> *Cc:* Kerry Brown
> *Subject:* Re: [governance] Is 'tit for tat' all that can be accomplished?
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Michael raises an interesting point: the extra-territorial extension of US
> sovereignty by leveraging the presence of major platforms on US soil. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Just as a reminder, this Recommendation of the Council of Europe in 2011<https://wcd.coe.int/ViewDoc.jsp?id=1835707>stated (emphasis added):
> ****
>
> *1.1. No harm*****
>
> 1.1.1. States have the responsibility to ensure, in compliance with the
> standards recognised in international human rights law and with the
> principles of international law, that *their actions do not have an
> adverse transboundary impact on access to and use of the Internet*.****
>
> 1.1.2. This should include, in particular, the responsibility to ensure
> that their actions within their jurisdictions do not illegitimately
> interfere with access to content outside their territorial boundaries or
> negatively impact the transboundary flow of Internet traffic.****
>
> *1.2. Co-operation*****
>
> States should co-operate in good faith with each other and with relevant
> stakeholders at all stages of development and implementation of
> Internet-related public policies to avoid any adverse transboundary impact
> on access to and use of the Internet.****
>
> The principle of the responsibility of States for transboundary impact of
> their national decisions is a very important one that should be
> strengthened. I understand the Council of Europe is preparing a conference
> in the fall on that topic. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Best****
>
> ** **
>
> Bertrand****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 3:43 PM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
> The difficulty Kerry and all is that even if the US companies were
> ``cooperat(ing) within the boundaries of the law``, it was (necessarily) a
> US law bounded by, but enforcing US jurisdiction.  ****
>
>  ****
>
> The Internet dominant companies involved are of course companies with
> global reach, global markets, global users and among the most active
> purveyors of an open and free/boundaryless Internet and what your post and
> the bulk of the discussion on these matters does not address is that the
> other (non-US) users of these services have essentially no protection under
> these laws. They/we are `fair game`.  ****
>
>  ****
>
> In some cases/places we have some protection under our own national laws
> but given that these laws have no jurisdiction (or truly effective
> influence) over the companies themselves (as has been demonstrated in
> various matters particularly in the European context and as is currently
> being articulated to her credit by our Canadian Privacy Commissioner) we
> are truly naked in front of these surveillance mechanisms (and given the
> current state of the US security panic we are all under suspicion until
> proven innocent); with by the way no evident means of authenticating one`s
> innocence in any lasting way.****
>
>  ****
>
> M****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:
> governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] *On Behalf Of *Kerry Brown
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:54 AM
> *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> *Subject:* RE: [governance] Is 'tit for tat' all that can be accomplished?
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> The language is too confrontational (i.e. “notes with horror”). It will
> never be taken seriously.****
>
>  ****
>
> There is no proof that any of the companies you mention cooperated
> willingly. I think that they all have cooperated within the boundaries of
> the law but that is opinion. I haven’t seen any proof. I think a far more
> likely scenario is that the NSA uses a variety of methods, some possibly
> illegal, to collect data that probably includes data from the mentioned
> companies. That is speculation. If we are going to express opinions and
> speculation we need to call out that we are doing that.****
>
>  ****
>
> Kerry Brown****
>
>  ****
>
> (Proposed text below - very rough first draft to get things rolling)****
>
> The Internet Governance Caucus notes with horror the manner in which the
> global population is being subject to such intrusive and intense
> surveillance by the US government in complicity with US based companies
> like Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube and
> Apple. Apart from being against all tenets of basic human rights, it
> exposes the hypocrisy of the claims by the US government of a special
> global legitimacy based on the 'historic role' vis a vis the governance of
> the Internet.  We are further troubled that in US government statements on
> the PRISM related disclosures, the main defence it seems to take is to say
> that they would never do any such thing to any US citizen. What about the
> non US citizens? And what about the claims of the US government that they
> are responsible to the 'global Internet community', a refrain frequently
> heard from the US government in the global Internet governance space? Why
> the double talk across spaces where technical management of the Internet is
> discussed and where 'harder' issues of privacy, security and rights – from
> political and civil rights to economic and social rights - get implicated?
> ****
>
> We are also extremely disappointed by how the US based global companies -
> Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube and Apple
> – betrayed the trust of their global customers in cooperating with the US
> government in such mass scale surveillance. Reports on how Twitter seems to
> have refused to cooperate show the kind of options that may have been
> available to these other companies as well. The denials by some of these
> companies about allowing government deep and largely indiscriminate access
> to information on their servers seem to run contrary to most news reports,
> which have not been contradicted by US authorities on these aspects. ****
>
> We wonder if there is a pro quid quo between the US government and these
> US based Internet companies with global operations, whereby these companies
> help further US government's political, military, etc interests worldwide
> and the US government in turn puts its political might in service of
> ensuring an unregulated global space for these Internet businesses? A good
> example of this is the insistence by the US government at the OECD and
> US-EU trade talks to maintain lowest possible data privacy standards,
> against considerable resistance by EU countries. ****
>
> The Internet Governance Caucus demand that the Human Rights Council calls
> for a special report and a special session on this issue. It should also
> proceed to examine ways to develop globally-applicable norms and principles
> on digital privacy and basic structures of legal frameworks and due process
> that ensures people's rights in online spaces – both civil and political
> rights as well as social and economic rights. ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>
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>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> --
> ____________________
> Bertrand de La Chapelle****
>
> Internet & Jurisdiction Project Director, International Diplomatic Academy
> (www.internetjurisdiction.net)****
>
> Member, ICANN Board of Directors
> Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32
>
> "Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de Saint
> Exupéry
> ("there is no greater mission for humans than uniting humans")****
>

-- 
____________________
Bertrand de La Chapelle
Internet & Jurisdiction Project Director, International Diplomatic Academy (
www.internetjurisdiction.net)
Member, ICANN Board of Directors
Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32

"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de Saint
Exupéry
("there is no greater mission for humans than uniting humans")
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