[governance] All power should be in the hands of the engineers? (was Re: HLLM in LOndon - CS reps)

Tue Dec 10 13:18:23 EST 2013

All,

I believe that Alejandro Pisanty is a person who has, among other things, significant concerns that map into some of the causes that are being promoted on this list.

I think that we have a significant problem with terminology here, and the argument regarding the classification of Alejandro, is a clear manifestation of it.  I would like to repeat what I said in a previous post and then try to improve on the terminology issue:

> Fourth, I'd like to propose a reconceptualization of the term "civil society."  In the multi-stakeholder instantiation that is now employed by the UN/MAG/IGF axis , it refers to groups if individuals, some representing organizations of various sizes that agree to various extents regarding the importance of individual rights of various kinds.  These groups represent civil society goals and are therefore grouped as "civil society" to populate that stakeholder group.  And although the goals of that group are generally quite positive, their actions are often based upon pushing back against other stakeholder groups, most notably government but also others.  Perhaps that reflects the reality of the tension between groups, but that tension is not moderated, as it might sometimes be, by people bridging groups instead of being siloed.
> 
> An alternate way to define civil society is to start with all people in the world and remove government involvement, the private sector involvement, and perhaps other large institutional influences.  To borrow a phrase from Apple, what is left is "the rest of us," and it contains fractions, generally large fractions of most of us as individuals.  
> 
> Most individuals have interests in more than one sector or stakeholder group.  We have interactions with government and may work for it.  Alternatively we may work for a private or other public sector organization.  Almost all of us are increasingly users of the internet.  Using this approach, perhaps an aggregate of 5 billion of us constitute "civil society," as opposed to the people who are now labeled as being in the civil society stakeholder group.   If we are all civil society in large parts of our lives, then we all have some claim to represent our views as we live.  Thus, a representative of Internet technology on the MAG is likely to, and has a right to opine on issues in the larger space, just as self-defined representatives of civil society positions have a right to do.  This illustrates again how the various stakeholder groups, or silos, are really quite intertwined, making the siloed and often competitive relationships between them at a formal level quite unrepresentative of the underlying reality,

I think that the individuals who participate on this list are more appropriately described as self-selected representatives of civil society causes.  I don't mean this pejoratively.  There is nothing right or wrong with being a member of a self-selected group; it's just another form of organization.  Similarly, as I noted in a previous post, there's nothing wrong with supporting, arguing for, or otherwise espousing a cause.

But let's not confuse all of us, all the billions of us who are civil society, with a modest group of individuals who support causes that are generally very important to us.

Speaking personally, While you do not represent me as an individual within civil society, I agree with a good part of what is said on this list.  When I discover ideas with which I disagree, I intervene.  and when the list seems to go into tailspins and obsessions with things that I believe are basically irrelevant, I intervene as i am doing now, hoping that what I do will help to reorient the direction o the conversation. 

Let's also not forget that many of us who have our primary affiliation in other sectors, such as the Internet technology sector, agree with much of what is said in a civil society context. Trying to classify Alejandro, as was done earlier, s either in or out of 'civil society' (whatever the writer meant) is essentially trying to take a rich and complex personality and reduce him to a single dimension.  IMO that is totally counter productive.  It's yet another reason why imposing a rigid stakeholder framework on a complex part of society is not only unproductive but harmful.

As I said in an earlier diatribe on this list, and as Jeanette said, let's focus on issues, within and across stakeholder lines.  

George

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On Dec 10, 2013, at 12:17 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
> I say that as a long term member of isoc and of the academic community, he
> is a valued part of CS.
> 
> His membership to the list is neither here nor there. Funnily enough, CS
> extends far beyond the confines of this caucus.
> 
> Norbert Bollow [10/12/13 15:51 +0100]:
>> McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 4:28 AM, Norbert Bollow <nb at bollow.ch> wrote:
>>> > In relation to Jean-Christophe's posting quoted below...
>>> >
>>> > Those remarks of Alejandro Pisanty (who by the way is not only
>>> > Chair of ISOC Mexico, but also definitely an influential person in
>>> > the global technical community, for example he has served three
>>> > terms as an ICANN board member, and he is currently on ISOC's Board
>>> > of Trustees)
>>> 
>>> and a member of this list (at least formerly and perhaps currently as
>>> a lurker) and therefore part of CS.
>> 
>> Are you seriously proposing being a current or past subscriber to this
>> or any other mailing list results in the person being "therefore" part
>> of civil society??? (There are several reasonable approaches to roughly
>> defining the "civil society" stakeholder category, and there's room for
>> reasonable disagreement between proponents of them, but I wouldn't
>> expect anyone to seriously view being a subscriber to the list as being
>> indicative in one way or the other!)
>> 
>>> are at
>>> > minutes 50:00-57:00 in this video:
>>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtOfsC2n_lQ
>>> >
>>> > Although the agenda that he is promoting is absolutely shocking when
>>> > looked at from any mainstream civil society perspective
>>> 
>>> What exactly is shocking?
>> 
>> a) what he actually said, in particular the statements that
>> Jean-Christophe has quoted
>> 
>> b) the agenda which in my view / analysis is behind those statements
>> 
>> c) these things being well received in the context where they were said
>> 
>>> > In effect, he's saying that all power should be in the hands of the
>>> > engineers and by implication in the hands of the companies for which
>>> > they're working
>>> 
>>> He didn't say that at all. Listen to it again maybe?
>> 
>> I started that sentence with "in effect, he's saying". In other words,
>> the sentence presents my analysis of what he's saying means in effect.
>> 
>>> > , and he is promoting the use of smoke screen tactics
>>> > that aim at preventing anyone else from gaining an effective
>>> > influence.
>>> >
>>> > Civil society absolutely needs to find a good way to deal with this
>>> > kind of tactics.
>>> >
>>> > These tactics have been successfully used *within* civil society
>>> > networks such as the IGC with the aim of preventing IGC from being
>>> > an effective civil society voice
>>> 
>>> So voicing a truly held opinion is a "tactic"?
>> 
>> Not necessarily; it can be part of a tactic though. Choices about where
>> and how to voice one's opinion, and on which subset of the topics under
>> discussion, are tactical in nature though.
>> 
>>> Your inability to accept diversity of opinion is showing (again).
>> 
>> Thanks for the insult.
>> 
>> Greetings,
>> Norbert
>> 

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