[governance] Secret Surveillance Puts Internet Governance System at Risk

Wed Aug 7 22:26:55 EDT 2013

Yes, for sure and we know that the trend globally has been towards more democratic accountability and less arbitrary governance so it is particularly disturbing to see that the loudest governmental advocate in support of these trends seems to be moving quite rapidly in the other direction.

Move

From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh at hserus.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 10:39 AM
To: Diego Rafael Canabarro
Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; michael gurstein; Avri Doria
Subject: Re: [governance] Secret Surveillance Puts Internet Governance System at Risk

It is a matter of scale.  There are governments where any and every citizen could expect to hear a midnight knock on the door to have his whole family shipped off to an undisclosed location. 

There are others where the rule of law exists, constitutional protections exist and such cases are aberrations.  

In all fairness, there are countries where Manning would have been tortured and shot without benefit of any sort of trial for what he did.

--srs (iPad)

On 07-Aug-2013, at 8:58, Diego Rafael Canabarro <diegocanabarro at gmail.com> wrote:

"the USA is far from being the sort of country North Korea, Iran or Saudi Arabia are"

These days, it has been pretty hard to sustaion that argument without serious open flanks. Especially when one considers that the argument "the sort of ..." is naturally biased towards a very manichean ways of seeing things. Pursuing Sanchez makes Cuba evil. The same with Aaron Swarts or Assange is turned sacred with the bless (and bliss, and also the magic cape) of the rule of law. 

On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <suresh at hserus.net> wrote:

It would be wrong to assume that any government at all doesn't wear multiple hats - a security service, regulators, etc all acting with a degree of independence can produce such contradictions

Still, the USA is far from being the sort of country North Korea, Iran or Saudi Arabia are.  Some perspective might actually help before tarring all governments with the same brush.  Or before assuming that each and every government entity moves in lockstep with the other.

Lacking that perspective would perhaps show almost as much naïveté

--srs (iPad)

On 05-Aug-2013, at 15:15, "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

> This position strikes me as either naïve or duplicitous in the extreme.
>
> Does one really believe that the USG and its "Internet Freedom" allies were
> supporting Internet Freedom because they believed in a free Internet (while
> they were using the Internet to build the capacity to undermine the
> fundamental human rights/freedoms of us all).
>
> Rather, it should I think, be evident that their real motivation was to
> ensure that there were no structures or mechanisms of whatever sort
> (governmental, inter-governmental, multi-stakeholder or whatever) that
> are/were in a position to protect those human rights and against the
> depredations which they were secretly constructing with which we all are
> being threatened.
>
> Do you really believe that the good folks who built and/or funded the
> current systems are going unbidden to build/fund out of the fineness of
> their principles the systems that you are suggesting would "protect us from
> government intrusion and ... revise Internet architectures so as to
> eliminate the points of control that governments are so successful at
> exploiting".
>
> Our strength such as it is, comes from the possibility of creating and
> implementing democratic processes and mechanisms through which governments
> and the increasingly global commons can be made transparent and held
> accountable and through which the protection of human rights and fundamental
> freedoms can be protected and extended.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria
> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 3:06 PM
> To: IGC
> Subject: Re: [governance] Secret Surveillance Puts Internet Governance
> System at Risk
>
>
> On 2 Aug 2013, at 18:35, Diego Rafael Canabarro wrote:
>
> quoting:
>
>> Secret Surveillance Puts Internet Governance System at Risk Friday
>> August 02, 2013
>>
>> http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6926/135/
>
>> the U.S. has ceded the moral high ground on the issue.
>
>
> Anyone who believes that any government anywhere occupies high ground is
> likely to be disappointed.  Governments, while unfortunately still a
> necessary evil in this stage human moral development, are not to be trusted
> but to be controlled and treated with suspicion by the people as much as
> possible.  sure there are good people in all governments, but government
> themselves are not those good people, rather they are bureaucracies
> motivated by a complex of intractable and often negative forces.
>
> The high ground in Dubai was not an issue of which government should be
> trusted, it was the point of trying to remove all governments as much as
> possible.  Governments cannot be trusted.  History shows us that they never
> could be and it is only blind faith that indicates someday they may be
> trustworthy.  Of course when governments are the only voice we have for
> limiting government intrusion - as they are in the ITU,  the topic can get
> perverted.
>
> But to view the confirmation of what we all knew, that all governments
> monitor all people at all times as much as they can get away with, as an
> excuse to give other governments more oversight is a bit confused to my
> mind.
>
> I think all this has shown is that an Internet that allows any sort of
> government interference is likely to be used by those governments for their
> own purposes, whether they are, surveillance in the service of perceived
> terror, pedophilia or intellectual 'property' threats , the silencing of
> dissidents or the persecution of minorities such as the gay population and
> other cultural/nation/racial minorities.
>
> While we can and must fight on the policy front to defend ourselves against
> the vulnerabilities created and already exploited by the current Internet's
> control points, we must put more and more focus into creating technologies
> and processes that protect us from government intrusion and must revise
> Internet architectures so as to eliminate the points of control that
> governments are so successful at exploiting.
>
> avri
>
>

> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
To be removed from the list, visit:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing

For all other list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/

Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

-- 
Diego R. Canabarro

http://lattes.cnpq.br/4980585945314597 

--
diego.canabarro [at] ufrgs.br

diego [at] pubpol.umass.edu
MSN: diegocanabarro [at] gmail.com
Skype: diegocanabarro
Cell # +55-51-9244-3425 (Brasil) / +1-413-362-0133 (USA)
--

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.igcaucus.org/pipermail/governance/attachments/20130808/fc360de1/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
To be removed from the list, visit:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing

For all other list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/

Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t