[governance] Update from today's MAG call

Sat Aug 3 20:00:17 EDT 2013

A few inline comments George,

From: George Sadowsky [mailto:george.sadowsky at gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:02 PM
To: michael gurstein
Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Subject: Re: [governance] Update from today's MAG call

Michael,

I believe that the best defense against capture is a thorough understanding
of exactly what interests each party in a group brings to the table.

[MG>] certainly this is one defense amongst others and its success will very
much depend on the context, the issue and the parties involved (simple
knowledge for example wouldn't be much of a defense against overwhelming
force, overwhelming deployment of financial and other resources for example
-- the current discussions concerning the "capture" of the FCC by the
incumbent telcos is one clear example of this.

In the west, as you know, conferences and meetings of various genres are
often sponsored by business interests of some kind.  In some conferences the
quid pro quo is not clear, and as a result it's quite possible that messages
become distorted without many in the audience realizing it.  Those of us who
do understand that there is a hidden quid pro quo treat these events as
infomercials and either avoid them or consciously filter out what we believe
are the evidence and the effects of the favoritism.

[MG>] yes, certainly, but see above and one cannot reasonably rely on
everyone being as aware of (or resistant to) the overt/covert nature of the
messages being transmitted/influence being peddled as others

On the other hand, the "Computers, Freedom an Privacy " conference held
annually in the US is squarely in the area of what I think you and I would
agree is policy, and that has sponsors from multiple sectors.  Participants
in that conference would be quite aware if amy sponsoring organizations were
trying to use the event to distort presentations and outcomes.  The
cooperation between sectors works, and one of the contributing factors is
that some the interests of the business community parallel those of segments
of civil society.

[MG>] I think there there is a difference between "policy conferences" and
conferences "about policy". I think that to at least some degree the IGF is
a "policy conference" i.e. a conference meant to influence or enable the
development of Internet governance related policy while the CFP conference
is one where folks are talking about the various policy options which are
available and whose outcome is informational for the various parties
involved. 

There is an underlying theme here that's worth exploring, and that is the
perception by a stakeholder group or its members that the views, motives and
goals of other groups are homogeoenous.  In fact, while there may be some
core principles within each group that are universally or nearly universally
accepted by members of a group, there is also a wide variety of opinion,
often conflicting, regarding other issues.  For example, those of us who
have dealt with governments quickly learn this, and identify paths through
governmental structures that allow us to advance the causes that we espouse.

[MG>] yes, but the notion of MSism is that the various stakeholders have
"stakes" (interests) which at some level they are pursuing based on some
level of consensus as to the nature of the stake/interest under discussion.
So while there may be disagreement on details there is a presumption of a
broad agreement on the nature of the stakes involved.

I have a concern that by partitioning our world conceptually into
stakeholder groups, we blur our ability to see that there are wide varieties
of opinion in other stakeholder groups, and that some of the stakeholders
and of the positions are consistent with ours.  This can lead to a situation
in which other groups are considered as adversaries, as a class. That in
turn could lead to a demonization of "outsiders", rather than a recognition
that our society is composed of different groups, all with their own
interests, and that it may be more important to explore what mutual
accommodation could provide rather than looking for issues to fight over.

[MG>] Yes, and of course, you are correct in this but this again is at the
level of tactics. From a strategic perspective I think it makes most sense
to recognize the difference of interests involved as between the various
stakeholder groups (while of course recognizing that there are differences
in details within each of these groups) and act accordingly making alliances
where this is possible and recognizing differences and what is implied by
this where necessary.

In the particular case of relationships between civil society and the
private sector, the rules are clear for the IGF.  They are set by  the UN
and forbid specific types of recognition for private sector donors.  In
other cases where private sector donors support an event or an activity,
some form of  recognition is expected, even if it consists only of oral
thanks in a session.  If we accept Suresh's criterion of a non-intervention
firewall between financial support and the presentation of substance in the
program of the event or activity, to which I subscribe, then surely we
should be able to accept that the private sector's motivation and aims just
might be consistent in specific ways with ours; otherwise why would they be
providing support.

[MG>] I'm not sure what you are saying here. Yes, there needs to be
firewalls--full stop. Beyond that what else is there to say.

Perhaps this last example is too simplistic, and if it is, I'm sure that
someone on the list will tell me so. 

However the more general point, that opinions within stakeholder groups are
varied, and that we should not perceive differences between groups in black
and white terms that would lead to suspicion of others, is fundamental to
working out differences.  The latter employs the same mechanism as
prejudice; characterizing all members of a group stereotypically rather than
understanding that members of the group are individuals and should be
assessed as such.

[MG>] Yes, and I'm sure that the folks in the NSA and the various
governments globally that are complicit in the building of the Surveillance
State are very nice and reasonable people by and large.  That doesn't change
very much about the nature of their work and the overall and very real
threat that that implies to human rights at a global level.

By the way, it should be obvious, but I want to state that I speak only for
myself here.  These are my opinions and not necessarily those of any other
person or group.

[MG>] 

Best,

Mike

Regards,

George

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On Aug 3, 2013, at 3:52 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

(Sorry, working through my mail front to back.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The issue I think would be the degree to
which the IGF -- either globally, regionally or nationally had a public
policy component to it. The more the public policy element (or the
expectation of a public policy output/outcome/influence of some sort) the
more there is a need for some minimum standards concerning the inputs into
the IGFs at whatever level (and presuming some degree of cascading upwards
from the local to the global).

Of course, if one is making the assumption that the IGF's are essentially
valueless from a public policy perspective then there is no rules/standards
necessary at all and seats/slots/etc.etc. can, as with normal commercial
(and in many cases "professional") conferences be sold to the highest
bidders.

(BTW I think that the issues concerning "bottom up vs. top down" are really
not relevant here in that I'm assuming the intention/basis for this
discussion is to establish some broad based norms of conduct for the IGF's.
Such norms are usually the result of broad based consensus on
values/principles etc. as governing the activities of the community in
question (in this instance the global Internet governance community).
Adherence to these norms is a necessary element for inclusion in that
community--non-adherence is reason for exclusion. These processes of norm
setting are neither bottom up nor top down but horizontal processes of
consensus building within the relevant community.)

Mike

From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
[mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of George Sadowsky
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 11:06 PM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; parminder
Cc: Grace Githaiga
Subject: Re: [governance] Update from today's MAG call

All,

I think that national and regional IGFs should be able to make the decisions
regarding the nature of their IGFs that are consistent with the needs an
desires of those countries and regions. The IGF is not a franchise operation
within which the top can dictate the behavior of the smaller meetings
presumably feeding into it.

In fact, it would be more appropriate if  representatives of those smaller
meetings agreed upon the policies associated with the global IGF, not the
other way around.  This should not be a top down operation. 

The reason that the "no commercial recognition" policy applies to the global
IGF is that it is a UN sponsord meetng, and therefore UN rules apply.  This
is not true for regional and national IGFs.

Note that I am not saying anything about the desirability or
non-desirability of such a policy at lower levels, but rather that it is
their decision to make on an individual basis, not a decision or even a
recommendation that should be made at a global level. 

On Aug 2, 2013, at 5:49 PM, parminder wrote:

On Friday 02 August 2013 02:09 PM, Grace Githaiga wrote:

"Can one now expect that this is also made a basic condition for regional
and national IGFs, among some basic conditions that are listed for such
initiatives, and these conditions are enforced". 

Parminder, can you clarify on this sentence? 

In my opinion, I do not think that this is a sound proposal to start
imposing conditions on say national IGFs. Is multistakeholdersim not about
getting all stakeholders on board to discuss these issues? For example if
say Kenya is holding the Kenya IGF and a telco company  decides it will put
in money since it has been part of the process, should that not be accepted?
At KICTANet, we have a multistakeholder model that brings even the corporate
stakeholders on board, NOT necessarily to influence the IGF but as partners.
Further, different national IGFs have different models of fundraising. What
works in Kenya may not work in say Tanzania. Kindly clarify.

Grace,

Happy to clarify. 

First of all, it should be clear that I only seek that those conditions be
made applicable  to national and regional IGFs that many of us here ( as
also the UN IGF MAG Chair and others)  agree that it is appropriate and
necessary to apply to the UN IGF.

Inter alia, such conditions are that while private companies can donate
money to the IGF, which goes into a trust fund, all measures will be taken
to ensure that there is not the least possibility of any quid pro quo at all
for these donations, including providing positions on the MAG, giving
speaking/ chairing slots, special recommendations for speaking slots,
special invitations to what could otherwise be selectively closed high-level
(policy related) meetings,  logos in and around the spaces where actual
policy deliberation takes place, and so on.... 

Do you indeed disagree with my position, whereby do you think that these
above conditions, with regard to policy spaces, that  democratic propriety
demands UN IGF must observe, should not be made applicable to national or
regional IGFs? 

Before I go on, I just want to make sure that I really understand what you
are saying here, and you understand my position.

parminder

Rgds

GG

  _____  

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 09:38:55 +0530
From: parminder at itforchange.net
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Subject: Re: [governance] Update from today's MAG call

Kudos to Markus for making a such clear affirmative statement on the isuue
of commercialisation of IGF...... And for also having strongly disapproved
of the Indonesian fund raising document/ strategy in February itself, and
for asking the local organising team to discontinue it and take the document
off their website. To make things clear in such strong words is really good
" the only thing that can be sold on the premises of the UN meeting is food,
and that has to be at a reasonable price".

Can one now expect that this is also made a basic condition for regional and
national IGFs, among some basic conditions that are listed for such
initiatives, and these conditions are enforced. Safeguarding policy spaces
from commercial/ corporatist influences is as important at regional and
national levels as at the global level.

As mentioned earlier, I remain rather concerned that the Chair of Asia
Pacific IGF called the provisions in the controversial Indonesian IGF fund
raising document as, and I quote

".....providing some traditional "value" back to contributors. The deal is
nothing new - it seems to be a rather standard sponsorship arrangement."

If indeed it was a rather standard sponsorship document, why did then the
MAG Chair disapprove of it and ask for its withdrawal? 

I am not sure therefore how they do it at the AP IGF, but I do see enough
reason to be concerned about it.  If any clarification in this regard is to
be forthcoming, I would welcome it.

There seems to be a consdierable lack of clarity about what the IGFs - as a
somewhat formal (and therefore, and to that extent, monopolistic) 'policy
dialogue space' and a new insitutionalised form of 'participation in
governance' and a new experiment in participative democracy - mean and how
they must be organised, and strongly insulated from private interests. And
for this sake, one need to be almost paranoidly pro-active rather than being
slack and accommodative. Insitutions of democracy are built with such
extreme care and caution, and being stickler to basic norms.

parminder

On Wednesday 31 July 2013 06:32 PM, Norbert Bollow wrote:

Here's a quick update from today's MAG call (I listened in as an
observer.)

Almost all of the discussion was around how to proceed in regard to 
2013 IGF meeting. Markus said that cancellation is not an option. There
are two serious expressions of interest from potential host countries
to step in on short notice if Bali doesn't work out. Failing that,
there's the option of having the meeting at the relevant UN HQ, which
for the IGF would mean Geneva, but since it might be difficult to get
so many rooms, that might mean that only a scaled down meeting could be
held. Also hotel rooms can be problematic in Geneva. Google/Vint Cerf is
willing to do a fundraising effort to try and save the Bali IGF. Some
preliminary news, on the basis of which the MAG might be able to
recommend something, is hoped for by the end of next week.

The current recommendation is not to cancel flights to Bali that have
already been booked, but also not to book a flight to Bali if you have
not booked yet. 

The commercialization problem was only touched on briefly. Markus said
that the basic rules are fairly simple: UN meetings cannot be
commercialized, there can be no sponsor's logos on the premises of the
UN meeting (and this rule has been enforced, he gave an example where a
compromise had been made in which sponsor's banners were put up outside
the premises of the UN meeting but in a place where they were visible
from the meeting's cafeteria), the only thing that can be sold on the
premises of the UN meeting is food and that has to be at a reasonable
price.

So it seems clear that the IGF is not in direct danger of getting
commercialized - that objectionable Indonesian fundraising strategy has
simply been declared dead.

Greetings,
Norbert

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