[governance] Internet as a commons/ public good

Wed Apr 17 14:28:41 EDT 2013

Riaz and all,

There is nothing particularly "scientific" about any of this stuff… (I'm not even quite sure exactly what meaning is being applied to the term "scientific" in fact..) rather it is one of those terms that is used in contexts like this by ideologues and the intellectually dishonest to cloak their obsrevations/conclusions in terminology that sounds impressive but means nothing (rather like the white coats that advertisers use on television to imply that the actors they have chosen to represent their nostrums are somehow associated with (and thus acquire the legitimacy of) Medical Doctors….

If what is meant is "evidence based" … then there is possibly something to discuss and it would be interesting to see the evidence (and particularly the methodolgy underlying the "evidence"… q.v. http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/with-friends-like-these-freedom-houses-freedom-on-the-internet-report-an-exercise-in-applied-ideology/ (http://tinyurl.com/bp9cuxo)

M

From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Riaz K Tayob
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 11:07 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Subject: Re: [governance] Internet as a commons/ public good

Michael, 

Is it possible to deconstruct some of the scientific (scientifism) in the arguments presented by MM? This is important as it quite a popular view in the US. Not to be conflictual, but there is a rationale that drives this view.

For instance what I find unscientific is that a particularly type of libertarianism (no expert on US, but from afar, happy to be corrected) starts off from the Hobbesian state as Leviathan monster. It is axiomatic, or a priori. It values individualism (over the collective), and sees govt action as interfering with that freedom. The free exchange in the market is the realm of freedom, and the state should stay out of it. The Nozik etc arguments do justice to libertarian conceptions than do, what shall I say, the flamboyant claims made on the school's behalf that are anti-government. 

In some South countries it was fashionable to prefer socio-economic over civil and political rights, distinguishing us from 'liberals'. In context, these were justified - particularly as an organizing principle. But with an aggressive state one quickly realised that both were important. With many countries following the rich country examples in "standards" for secrecy, terrorism, counter-terrorism lowering civil and political rights everywhere, I do hope for more liberals of the type that say, "I disagree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it". To some it may seem anti-American to criticize the PATRIOT Act but much is well founded and not necessarily anti-US, and contestable in too many instances on simple libertarian grounds . I would be more skeptical of their position on socio-economic rights, however. As is evident in this thread. Govt seems to have a a role to play (even passing laws to leave the internet market alone would indicate that it is primarily a political construction) unless a strong case is made against it.

But the differences are important as we can disagree on first principles, and the rest is merely symptomatic. But these principles need more explanation, but perhaps differently from what we have had.

Riaz

On 2013/04/17 06:29 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

Apart from all the completely gratuitous ad hominem's -- "pursuing a political agenda", "honest debate", "you and others who so fervently blah blah…", "sane people blah blah" and the rather silly attempt to hijack a discussion by insisting that his position is "scientific" and thus anyone else's is presumably what… superstition? I see little interest or value in pursuing this discussion… That kind of stuff may fly in academic environments where grad students and junior colleagues have no choice but to listen and nod and go on but is really beyond the pale in the real world except those who get their policy discussions via Faux News etc.etc.

M

From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Milton L Mueller
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:39 PM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Subject: RE: [governance] Internet as a commons/ public good

From: michael gurstein [mailto:gurstein at gmail.com] 

And in that context I pointed to the discussion around these related issues by Inge Kaul and Joseph Steiglitz in the UNDP Human Development Index supported effort to re-awaken/redefine issues concerning "public goods" and take them out of the dessicated hands/minds of the professional classical (read ideologically Friedmanian) economists/public policy geeks/academics. And to recreate these notions as a tool to support those looking to protect the public interest from the onslaught of those who would destroy thist at the altar of universalized Hobbesian privatized interests. 

[Milton L Mueller] Right. So from my perspective you are just flatly admitting that you are pursuing a political agenda and there is no real scientific basis for your claim. 

I’ve got an idea: why don’t we have an _honest_ fact-based debate about the role of the public sector in the Internet’s development and use? Instead of arbitrarily attaching a label “public good” to it and trying to derive pre-ordained policies from that, why don’t you just come out and say, “I think there should be more governmental control, subsidization and regulation of the Internet”? Make an honest case for how that will change things for the better?

If we have such an honest debate, the first thing that you and others who believe so fervently in public sector-led development will have to face is that privatization and liberalization of telecommunications is what led to widespread diffusion of telecom infrastructure, and that the attendant deregulation and free trade in information and telecom services led to the rapid diffusion and development of the internet. And conversely, that 70 years of state-owned monopolies – telecoms as public good –stunted development and led to penetration rates of 10% of less and waiting periods of sometimes 6 years simply to get a telephone line. And it is still countries with the least liberalization who have the least-developed, least accessible internet sectors. 

I know that the unparalleled success of neoliberal policies must drive anti-neoliberals crazy. But, there it is: undeniable fact, played out in country after country, year after year, for 20 years. I am so sorry that reality did not conform to your beliefs. I really am. You have my deepest sympathy. Those “dessicated” market processes actually produced more public good, more public benefit, than your telecom socialism. Ouch. That must hurt. Deal with it. 

Typically, sane people adjust their beliefs to reality. They do not try to re-label reality so that it conforms to their ideology. 

And to my mind if there is a suitable candidate for the type of redifinition in which they are/were engaged "the Internet" is surely one, and rather than defining the Internet in such a way as to obviate the possibility of it being understood as a global public good, perhaps better to understand how the definiition of the Internet should be recognized as one that at a minimum accommodates such notions.

[Milton L Mueller] An accurate, reality-grounded definition of the internet can easily accommodate notions of non-proprietary spaces, commons, common pool governance, as well as private, competitive market-driven spaces. The whole point, which I have tried to make in papers such as this http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1828102 is that the Internet arrived at a very powerful, creative balance of private, competitive and open, public spaces. It wasn’t planned, it just happened, because it worked. 

Before you mess with that equation, I’d ask you to at least seek to understand it. Show some respect for economic and political science, actually READ Ostrom and don’t just chant the words “commons,” and “public good,” understand how economic structures and incentives affect what happens. Pay attention to the private, competitive, market side of the equation, show it some respect, apply labels and concepts critically, testing whether they actually conform to reality. 

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