From jefsey at jefsey.com  Sat Sep  1 05:10:46 2012
From: jefsey at jefsey.com (JFC Morfin)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:10:46 +0200
Subject: [governance] Starving the Future
In-Reply-To: <503F9501.8090201@panamo.eu>
References: <503F9501.8090201@panamo.eu>
Message-ID: <E1T7jiw-0002eL-QW@igcaucus.org>

At 18:29 30/08/2012, Dominique Lacroix wrote:
>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/opinion/blow-starving-the-future.html

They do not even house the babies:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/02/opinion/sunday/young-and-homeless.html

Charity Gamboa says that money goes to technology:
now, IAB, IETF, IEEE, ISOC, W3C are market driven: http://open-stand.org
Interesting that no one cares the change.
Another "solitary campaign" for me: http://open-use.org
jfc
   


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From baudouin.schombe at gmail.com  Sat Sep  1 06:25:19 2012
From: baudouin.schombe at gmail.com (Baudouin Schombe)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 11:25:19 +0100
Subject: [governance] visas for azerbaijan on arrival
In-Reply-To: <CALCecM9rf0xY43h4HMPz+Bk6xErRE0ov5rxr=DHKkLrCH_X1pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CC4E067C.2DA83%tphang@ntu.edu.sg> <5028E26F.6020805@cafonso.ca>
 <CAFabd1KFRY=8riAbw+zkCxbATkhdX5ALcvAM6SWicOtSHCV9cA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACTo+v-PYR=sfwZzTyYN4x6x2_Kg0ysddan_hTy+NAG_vQgxbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPcSPKU4fgDj=AeD0JX-DzjmMK_h+5difX-KHsaRDvGXzNkJdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFabd1+bv=4vorWJW2iGo69k4e2UuROmC+5Wix3YTwh5n+9NNw@mail.gmail.com> <CALCecM9rf0xY43h4HMPz+Bk6xErRE0ov5rxr=DHKkLrCH_X1pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPcSPKUDtfZ3ej93z_RpuJT7eoxyjG3QXM_ZQEA-RY8Jt+qk8A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I'm in the same situation and I do not understand what is happening. No
response so far.

Baudouin

2012/8/27 Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>

> Has anyone received the described letter for the visa on arrival, after
> emailing visainquiries at igf2012.az ?
> I emailed August 13, but have had no response.
> Does anyone have more information? I don't want to re-send if it is just a
> matter of giving them time...
>
> I refer to:
>
> b) Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the
> participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of
> registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's IGF
> visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
>
> Thanks,
> Ginger
> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>
>
>
> Foreigners or stateless persons coming to the Republic of Azerbaijan for
> Internet Governance Forum-2012, which will be held in Baku, can receive
> visas from the structural sections of the Consular Department of the
> Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which are
> located in the Baku Heydar Aliyev International Airport or from the
> Consular Depatments of the Republic of Azerbaijan located in foreign
> countries.
>
> *The upon arrival visa application period starts from 15 October to 8
> November, 2012.
> There are two supporting documents which will serve as the basis for
> granting the visa:*
>
> a) ‘Confirmation of registration’-form which will be provided by the IGF
> Secretariat at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/
> and
> b) Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the
> participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of
> registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's IGF
> visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
>
> VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
> Diplo Foundation
> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
> www.diplomacy.edu/ig
> **
> **
>
>
>
> On 14 August 2012 04:56, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>
>> Baudouin, Hi.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:46 PM, Baudouin Schombe
>> <baudouin.schombe at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> > For countries that have no diplomatic representation, is it possible to
>> have
>> > the visa on arrival?
>> >
>>
>> Yes, exactly.  If your country does not have and Azerbaijan
>> embassy/consular office you can get a visa on arrival.
>>
>> See the link Carlos provided
>> <http://igf2012.com/?mod=content&sub=bottom&id=116&lang=en> for more
>> information about the forms you need.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > I think these are provisions that must be considered!
>> >
>> > Baudouin
>> >
>> > 2012/8/13 Mawaki Chango <kichango at gmail.com>
>> >>
>> >> [Sigh of relief] Thanks!
>> >>
>> >> m.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>> >> > On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca>
>> wrote:
>> >> >> Hi people,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Maybe most of you have already seen this info.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I've just got confirmation email of my registration for Baku IGF
>> >> >> reminding me of the info regarding visas in the IGF 2012 website. I
>> >> >> think the issues regarding visas are settled now (see below). There
>> is
>> >> >> no info on costs though.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > My understanding is that the visa will be free.  However, checking
>> >> > this and will get back with confirmation.
>> >> >
>> >> > Adam
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> frt rgds
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --c.a.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://igf2012.com/?mod=content&sub=bottom&id=116&lang=en
>> >> >>
>> >> >> General information
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Foreigners or stateless persons coming to the Republic of Azerbaijan
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> Internet Governance Forum-2012, which will be held in Baku, can
>> receive
>> >> >> visas from the structural sections of the Consular Department of the
>> >> >> Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which are
>> >> >> located in the Baku Heydar Aliyev International Airport or from the
>> >> >> Consular Depatments of the Republic of Azerbaijan located in foreign
>> >> >> countries.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The upon arrival visa application period starts from 15 October to 8
>> >> >> November, 2012. There are two supporting documents which will serve
>> as
>> >> >> the basis for granting the visa:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> a) ‘Confirmation of registration’-form which will be provided by the
>> >> >> IGF
>> >> >> Secretariat at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> b) Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the
>> >> >> participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation
>> of
>> >> >> registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host
>> country's
>> >> >> IGF visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ____________________________________________________________
>> >> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>> >> >>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> >> >> To be removed from the list, visit:
>> >> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For all other list information and functions, see:
>> >> >>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> >> >> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>> >> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ____________________________________________________________
>> >> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>> >> >      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> >> > To be removed from the list, visit:
>> >> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>> >> >
>> >> > For all other list information and functions, see:
>> >> >      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> >> > To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>> >> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>> >> >
>> >> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ____________________________________________________________
>> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>> >>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> >> To be removed from the list, visit:
>> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>> >>
>> >> For all other list information and functions, see:
>> >>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> >> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>> >>
>> >> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
>> > CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
>> > ACADEMIE DES TIC
>> > FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
>> > At-Large Member
>> > NCSG Member
>> >
>> > email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
>> >          baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
>> > tél:+243998983491
>> > skype:b.schombe
>> > wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
>> > blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
>> >
>> >
>> > ____________________________________________________________
>> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>> >      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> > To be removed from the list, visit:
>> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>> >
>> > For all other list information and functions, see:
>> >      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> > To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>> >
>> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>> >
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
ACADEMIE DES TIC
FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
At-Large Member
NCSG Member

email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
         baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
tél:+243998983491
skype:b.schombe
wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
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From dl at panamo.eu  Sat Sep  1 07:13:46 2012
From: dl at panamo.eu (Dominique Lacroix)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 13:13:46 +0200
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com> <50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net> <CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com> <50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <5041EDEA.2050903@panamo.eu>

Le 31/08/12 23:44, Milton L Mueller a écrit :
> */[Milton L Mueller] It was decided when ICANN was created that it 
> would NOT be immune from antitrust law. /*
Thank you Milton. That seems an important point, indeed.
I'd like a lot to learn from you where that decision was written?
Some can consider that as long as the USG oversights ICANN, it means 
that ICANN should escape anti-trust laws.
Other claim that ICANN is nearly an international ONG, that should 
receive a sort of immunity.

Actually, in the recent .XXX trial, ICANN alleged:

    "/ICANN does not engage in “trade or commerce./”

Microsoft Word - JD_3157966_2.DOCX

12.

    "/ICANN is engaged in “charitable //(Noncommercial) and public”
    activities intended to “lessen[] the burdens of government and
    promot[e] //the global public interest in the operational stability
    of the Internet./”

    Microsoft Word - JD_3157966_2.DO

<http://www.icann.org/en/news/litigation/manwin-v-icm/icann-motion-to-dismiss-complaint-20jan12-en.pdf>From:ICANN's 
Motion to Dismiss Complaint 
<http://www.icann.org/en/news/litigation/manwin-v-icm/icann-motion-to-dismiss-complaint-20jan12-en.pdf> 
[PDF, 235 KB]

The true nature and rules of Internet Governance (IG) may be sometimes 
uneasy to clarify for people in Europe. I don't dare imagine what a 
nightmare it could be for us, you and me, if IG was managed by Indians 
or Chinese people (just as examples), with devanagari or hanzi writings, 
Indians or Chinese laws, Indian or judicial systems, etc.


Best,

Microsoft Word - JD_3157966_2.DOCX @+, Dominique

-- 
Dominique Lacroix
Société européenne de l'Internet
http://www.ies-france.eu
+33 (0)6 63 24 39 14

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From gpaque at gmail.com  Sat Sep  1 09:31:41 2012
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 08:31:41 -0500
Subject: [governance] visas for azerbaijan on arrival
In-Reply-To: <CAPcSPKUDtfZ3ej93z_RpuJT7eoxyjG3QXM_ZQEA-RY8Jt+qk8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CC4E067C.2DA83%tphang@ntu.edu.sg> <5028E26F.6020805@cafonso.ca>
 <CAFabd1KFRY=8riAbw+zkCxbATkhdX5ALcvAM6SWicOtSHCV9cA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACTo+v-PYR=sfwZzTyYN4x6x2_Kg0ysddan_hTy+NAG_vQgxbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPcSPKU4fgDj=AeD0JX-DzjmMK_h+5difX-KHsaRDvGXzNkJdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFabd1+bv=4vorWJW2iGo69k4e2UuROmC+5Wix3YTwh5n+9NNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALCecM9rf0xY43h4HMPz+Bk6xErRE0ov5rxr=DHKkLrCH_X1pw@mail.gmail.com> <CAPcSPKUDtfZ3ej93z_RpuJT7eoxyjG3QXM_ZQEA-RY8Jt+qk8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALCecM_597NC6e1nRBL2Bz0sEt2HzikKRQ8k974r6aZic6moPQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Baudouin,
I re-sent my original email, and got a response saying that my email had
been received and was in processing or accepted. I am now waiting for
another response.

Good luck.
Ginger

Ginger (Virginia) Paque

VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
Diplo Foundation
Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
www.diplomacy.edu/ig
**
**



On 1 September 2012 05:25, Baudouin Schombe <baudouin.schombe at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm in the same situation and I do not understand what is happening. No
> response so far.
>
> Baudouin
>
> 2012/8/27 Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
>
>> Has anyone received the described letter for the visa on arrival, after
>> emailing visainquiries at igf2012.az ?
>> I emailed August 13, but have had no response.
>> Does anyone have more information? I don't want to re-send if it is just
>> a matter of giving them time...
>>
>> I refer to:
>>
>> b) Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the
>> participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of
>> registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's IGF
>> visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ginger
>> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>>
>>
>>
>> Foreigners or stateless persons coming to the Republic of Azerbaijan for
>> Internet Governance Forum-2012, which will be held in Baku, can receive
>> visas from the structural sections of the Consular Department of the
>> Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which are
>> located in the Baku Heydar Aliyev International Airport or from the
>> Consular Depatments of the Republic of Azerbaijan located in foreign
>> countries.
>>
>> *The upon arrival visa application period starts from 15 October to 8
>> November, 2012.
>> There are two supporting documents which will serve as the basis for
>> granting the visa:*
>>
>> a) ‘Confirmation of registration’-form which will be provided by the IGF
>> Secretariat at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/
>> and
>> b) Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the
>> participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of
>> registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's IGF
>> visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
>>
>> VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
>> Diplo Foundation
>> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
>> www.diplomacy.edu/ig
>> **
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>> On 14 August 2012 04:56, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>>
>>> Baudouin, Hi.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:46 PM, Baudouin Schombe
>>> <baudouin.schombe at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Hello,
>>> > For countries that have no diplomatic representation, is it possible
>>> to have
>>> > the visa on arrival?
>>> >
>>>
>>> Yes, exactly.  If your country does not have and Azerbaijan
>>> embassy/consular office you can get a visa on arrival.
>>>
>>> See the link Carlos provided
>>> <http://igf2012.com/?mod=content&sub=bottom&id=116&lang=en> for more
>>> information about the forms you need.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > I think these are provisions that must be considered!
>>> >
>>> > Baudouin
>>> >
>>> > 2012/8/13 Mawaki Chango <kichango at gmail.com>
>>> >>
>>> >> [Sigh of relief] Thanks!
>>> >>
>>> >> m.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>>> >> > On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >> Hi people,
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Maybe most of you have already seen this info.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I've just got confirmation email of my registration for Baku IGF
>>> >> >> reminding me of the info regarding visas in the IGF 2012 website. I
>>> >> >> think the issues regarding visas are settled now (see below).
>>> There is
>>> >> >> no info on costs though.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > My understanding is that the visa will be free.  However, checking
>>> >> > this and will get back with confirmation.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Adam
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> frt rgds
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> --c.a.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> http://igf2012.com/?mod=content&sub=bottom&id=116&lang=en
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> General information
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Foreigners or stateless persons coming to the Republic of
>>> Azerbaijan
>>> >> >> for
>>> >> >> Internet Governance Forum-2012, which will be held in Baku, can
>>> receive
>>> >> >> visas from the structural sections of the Consular Department of
>>> the
>>> >> >> Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which
>>> are
>>> >> >> located in the Baku Heydar Aliyev International Airport or from the
>>> >> >> Consular Depatments of the Republic of Azerbaijan located in
>>> foreign
>>> >> >> countries.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> The upon arrival visa application period starts from 15 October to
>>> 8
>>> >> >> November, 2012. There are two supporting documents which will
>>> serve as
>>> >> >> the basis for granting the visa:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> a) ‘Confirmation of registration’-form which will be provided by
>>> the
>>> >> >> IGF
>>> >> >> Secretariat at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/
>>> >> >> and
>>> >> >> b) Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the
>>> >> >> participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation
>>> of
>>> >> >> registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host
>>> country's
>>> >> >> IGF visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> ____________________________________________________________
>>> >> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>> >> >>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> >> >> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>> >> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>> >> >>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>> >> >> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>> >> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ____________________________________________________________
>>> >> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>> >> >      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> >> > To be removed from the list, visit:
>>> >> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>> >> >
>>> >> > For all other list information and functions, see:
>>> >> >      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>> >> > To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>> >> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ____________________________________________________________
>>> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>> >>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> >> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>> >>
>>> >> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>> >>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>> >> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>> >>
>>> >> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
>>> > CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
>>> > ACADEMIE DES TIC
>>> > FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
>>> > At-Large Member
>>> > NCSG Member
>>> >
>>> > email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
>>> >          baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
>>> > tél:+243998983491
>>> > skype:b.schombe
>>> > wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
>>> > blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ____________________________________________________________
>>> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>> >      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> > To be removed from the list, visit:
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>>> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
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>
>
> --
> SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
> CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
> ACADEMIE DES TIC
> FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
> At-Large Member
> NCSG Member
>
> email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
>          baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
> tél:+243998983491
> skype:b.schombe
> wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
> blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
>
>
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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Sat Sep  1 09:50:55 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 19:20:55 +0530
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <5041EDEA.2050903@panamo.eu>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net>
	<CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<5041EDEA.2050903@panamo.eu>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKQo59DcbcE9DXnZFWymi2YvUpCf9efv75iYeXg-bXZ4sg@mail.gmail.com>

If it were managed by the Indian government you would probably only be able
to register domains Jan - April and then you'd have to file the list of
domains in writing with the revenue office.

Indeed ICANN *IS* doing a splendid job in terms of a clean simple
non-bureaucratic process for the public.

-C

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu> wrote:

>  Le 31/08/12 23:44, Milton L Mueller a écrit :
>
> *[Milton L Mueller] It was decided when ICANN was created that it would
> NOT be immune from antitrust law. *
>
> Thank you Milton. That seems an important point, indeed.
> I'd like a lot to learn from you where that decision was written?
> Some can consider that as long as the USG oversights ICANN, it means that
> ICANN should escape anti-trust laws.
> Other claim that ICANN is nearly an international ONG, that should receive
> a sort of immunity.
>
> Actually, in the recent .XXX trial, ICANN alleged:
>
> "*ICANN does not engage in “trade or commerce.*”
>
>
>    1.
>
>    "*ICANN is engaged in “charitable **(Noncommercial) and public”
>    activities intended to “lessen[] the burdens of government and promot[e]
>    **the global public interest in the operational stability of the
>    Internet.*”
>
>
>
> <http://www.icann.org/en/news/litigation/manwin-v-icm/icann-motion-to-dismiss-complaint-20jan12-en.pdf>
> From:ICANN's Motion to Dismiss Complaint<http://www.icann.org/en/news/litigation/manwin-v-icm/icann-motion-to-dismiss-complaint-20jan12-en.pdf>[PDF, 235 KB]
>
> The true nature and rules of Internet Governance (IG) may be sometimes
> uneasy to clarify for people in Europe. I don't dare imagine what a
> nightmare it could be for us, you and me, if IG was managed by Indians or
> Chinese people (just as examples), with devanagari or hanzi writings,
> Indians or Chinese laws, Indian or judicial systems, etc.
>
>
> Best,
>
>  @+, Dominique
>
> --
> Dominique Lacroix
> Société européenne de l'Internethttp://www.ies-france.eu
> +33 (0)6 63 24 39 14
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
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From ggithaiga at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  1 09:58:51 2012
From: ggithaiga at hotmail.com (Grace Githaiga)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 13:58:51 +0000
Subject: [governance] visas for azerbaijan on arrival
In-Reply-To:  <CALCecM_597NC6e1nRBL2Bz0sEt2HzikKRQ8k974r6aZic6moPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CC4E067C.2DA83%tphang@ntu.edu.sg>
 <5028E26F.6020805@cafonso.ca>,<CAFabd1KFRY=8riAbw+zkCxbATkhdX5ALcvAM6SWicOtSHCV9cA@mail.gmail.com>,<CACTo+v-PYR=sfwZzTyYN4x6x2_Kg0ysddan_hTy+NAG_vQgxbg@mail.gmail.com>,<CAPcSPKU4fgDj=AeD0JX-DzjmMK_h+5difX-KHsaRDvGXzNkJdw@mail.gmail.com>,<CAFabd1+bv=4vorWJW2iGo69k4e2UuROmC+5Wix3YTwh5n+9NNw@mail.gmail.com>,<CALCecM9rf0xY43h4HMPz+Bk6xErRE0ov5rxr=DHKkLrCH_X1pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPcSPKUDtfZ3ej93z_RpuJT7eoxyjG3QXM_ZQEA-RY8Jt+qk8A@mail.gmail.com>,<CALCecM_597NC6e1nRBL2Bz0sEt2HzikKRQ8k974r6aZic6moPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY151-W3848FAB482CD20FD83A8ADB4A50@phx.gbl>


Hi Ginger
Your letter should come soon. I just got my confirmation/invitation letter yesterday evening. 
RgdsGrace

From: gpaque at gmail.com
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 08:31:41 -0500
To: baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
CC: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; ajp at glocom.ac.jp
Subject: Re: [governance] visas for azerbaijan on arrival

Hi Baudouin,
I re-sent my original email, and got a response saying that my email had been received and was in processing or accepted. I am now waiting for another response.

Good luck.
Ginger


Ginger (Virginia) Paque

VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
Diplo Foundation
Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme


www.diplomacy.edu/ig









On 1 September 2012 05:25, Baudouin Schombe <baudouin.schombe at gmail.com> wrote:


Hello,

 I'm in the same situation and I do not understand what is happening. No response so far.





Baudouin

2012/8/27 Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>




Has anyone received the described letter for the visa on arrival, after emailing visainquiries at igf2012.az ?
I emailed August 13, but have had no response.




Does anyone have more information? I don't want to re-send if it is just a matter of giving them time...



I refer to:
b)
        Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the 
participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of 
registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's 
IGF visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az

Thanks,
GingerGinger (Virginia) Paque




Foreigners or stateless persons coming to the Republic of Azerbaijan 
for Internet Governance Forum-2012, which will be held in Baku, can 
receive visas from the structural sections of the Consular Department of
 the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which 
are located in the Baku Heydar Aliyev International Airport or from the 
Consular Depatments of the Republic of Azerbaijan located in foreign 
countries. 
The upon arrival visa application period starts from 15 October to 8 November, 2012. 
There are two supporting documents which will serve as the basis for granting the visa: 
a)        ‘Confirmation of registration’-form which will be provided by the IGF Secretariat at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/ 






and 
b)
        Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the 
participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of 
registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's 
IGF visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az  
VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu






Diplo Foundation
Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
www.diplomacy.edu/ig

















On 14 August 2012 04:56, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:






Baudouin, Hi.









On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:46 PM, Baudouin Schombe

<baudouin.schombe at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,

> For countries that have no diplomatic representation, is it possible to have

> the visa on arrival?

>



Yes, exactly.  If your country does not have and Azerbaijan

embassy/consular office you can get a visa on arrival.



See the link Carlos provided

<http://igf2012.com/?mod=content&sub=bottom&id=116&lang=en> for more







information about the forms you need.



Adam







>

> I think these are provisions that must be considered!

>

> Baudouin

>

> 2012/8/13 Mawaki Chango <kichango at gmail.com>

>>

>> [Sigh of relief] Thanks!

>>

>> m.

>>

>> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:

>> > On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:

>> >> Hi people,

>> >>

>> >> Maybe most of you have already seen this info.

>> >>

>> >> I've just got confirmation email of my registration for Baku IGF

>> >> reminding me of the info regarding visas in the IGF 2012 website. I

>> >> think the issues regarding visas are settled now (see below). There is

>> >> no info on costs though.

>> >>

>> >

>> >

>> > My understanding is that the visa will be free.  However, checking

>> > this and will get back with confirmation.

>> >

>> > Adam

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >> frt rgds

>> >>

>> >> --c.a.

>> >>

>> >> http://igf2012.com/?mod=content&sub=bottom&id=116&lang=en







>> >>

>> >> General information

>> >>

>> >> Foreigners or stateless persons coming to the Republic of Azerbaijan

>> >> for

>> >> Internet Governance Forum-2012, which will be held in Baku, can receive

>> >> visas from the structural sections of the Consular Department of the

>> >> Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which are

>> >> located in the Baku Heydar Aliyev International Airport or from the

>> >> Consular Depatments of the Republic of Azerbaijan located in foreign

>> >> countries.

>> >>

>> >> The upon arrival visa application period starts from 15 October to 8

>> >> November, 2012. There are two supporting documents which will serve as

>> >> the basis for granting the visa:

>> >>

>> >> a) ‘Confirmation of registration’-form which will be provided by the

>> >> IGF

>> >> Secretariat at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/





>> >> and

>> >> b) Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the

>> >> participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of

>> >> registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's

>> >> IGF visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> ____________________________________________________________

>> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:

>> >>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org

>> >> To be removed from the list, visit:

>> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing





>> >>

>> >> For all other list information and functions, see:

>> >>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance





>> >> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:

>> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/





>> >>

>> >> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

>> >>

>> >

>> >

>> > ____________________________________________________________

>> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:

>> >      governance at lists.igcaucus.org

>> > To be removed from the list, visit:

>> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing





>> >

>> > For all other list information and functions, see:

>> >      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance





>> > To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:

>> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/





>> >

>> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

>> >

>>

>>

>> ____________________________________________________________

>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:

>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org

>> To be removed from the list, visit:

>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing





>>

>> For all other list information and functions, see:

>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance





>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:

>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/





>>

>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

>>

>

>

>

> --

> SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN

> CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/

> ACADEMIE DES TIC

> FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre

> At-Large Member

> NCSG Member

>

> email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com

>          baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net

> tél:+243998983491

> skype:b.schombe

> wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net





> blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr





>

>

> ____________________________________________________________

> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:

>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org

> To be removed from the list, visit:

>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing





>

> For all other list information and functions, see:

>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance





> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:

>      http://www.igcaucus.org/





>

> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

>




____________________________________________________________

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     http://www.igcaucus.org/







Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t





____________________________________________________________

You received this message as a subscriber on the list:

     governance at lists.igcaucus.org

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For all other list information and functions, see:

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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t




-- 
SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
ACADEMIE DES TIC
FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
At-Large Member
NCSG Member

email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com




         baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
tél:+243998983491
skype:b.schombe


wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net




blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr





 		 	   		  
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From dl at panamo.eu  Sat Sep  1 10:12:55 2012
From: dl at panamo.eu (Dominique Lacroix)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 16:12:55 +0200
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKQo59DcbcE9DXnZFWymi2YvUpCf9efv75iYeXg-bXZ4sg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com> <50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net> <CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com> <50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <5041EDEA.2050903@panamo.eu> <CAEP5zKQo59DcbcE9DXnZFWymi2YvUpCf9efv75iYeXg-bXZ4sg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <504217E7.3030204@panamo.eu>

Le 01/09/12 15:50, Chaitanya Dhareshwar a écrit :
> Indeed ICANN *IS* doing a splendid job in terms of a clean simple 
> non-bureaucratic process for the public. 
Yes, of course, dear Chaitanya.
But, as in every activity, the world needs to know what sort of 
organization it is.
A US private one, submitted to commercial laws?
An international quasi-public organization, immune vis-a-vis commercial 
laws?
An American agency, working for the American nation interests through 
the world?

Your analyse on this point could help.

Cheers, @+, Dominique

-- 
Dominique Lacroix
Société européenne de l'Internet
http://www.ies-france.eu
+33 (0)6 63 24 39 14

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From cafec3m at yahoo.fr  Sat Sep  1 10:42:12 2012
From: cafec3m at yahoo.fr (CAFEC)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 15:42:12 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [governance] visas for azerbaijan on arrival
In-Reply-To: <CALCecM_597NC6e1nRBL2Bz0sEt2HzikKRQ8k974r6aZic6moPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CC4E067C.2DA83%tphang@ntu.edu.sg> <5028E26F.6020805@cafonso.ca> <CAFabd1KFRY=8riAbw+zkCxbATkhdX5ALcvAM6SWicOtSHCV9cA@mail.gmail.com> <CACTo+v-PYR=sfwZzTyYN4x6x2_Kg0ysddan_hTy+NAG_vQgxbg@mail.gmail.com> <CAPcSPKU4fgDj=AeD0JX-DzjmMK_h+5difX-KHsaRDvGXzNkJdw@mail.gmail.com> <CAFabd1+bv=4vorWJW2iGo69k4e2UuROmC+5Wix3YTwh5n+9NNw@mail.gmail.com> <CALCecM9rf0xY43h4HMPz+Bk6xErRE0ov5rxr=DHKkLrCH_X1pw@mail.gmail.com> <CAPcSPKUDtfZ3ej93z_RpuJT7eoxyjG3QXM_ZQEA-RY8Jt+qk8A@mail.gmail.com> <CALCecM_597NC6e1nRBL2Bz0sEt2HzikKRQ8k974r6aZic6moPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1346510532.41109.YahooMailNeo@web28702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

I will do so. But I think I can have visa on arrival.


thanks Ginger

 
 
COORDINATION NATIONALE CAFEC
COORDINATION NATIONALE REPRONTIC
courriel:cafec3m at yahoo.fr/repronticrdc3m at yahoo.fr/sam2006 at francophone.net
téléphone: 00243 998983491


________________________________
 De : Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
À : Baudouin Schombe <baudouin.schombe at gmail.com> 
Cc : governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> 
Envoyé le : Samedi 1 septembre 2012 14h31
Objet : Re: [governance] visas for azerbaijan on arrival
 

Hi Baudouin,
I re-sent my original email, and got a response saying that my email had been received and was in processing or accepted. I am now waiting for another response.

Good luck.
Ginger

Ginger (Virginia) Paque


VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
Diplo Foundation
Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
www.diplomacy.edu/ig





On 1 September 2012 05:25, Baudouin Schombe <baudouin.schombe at gmail.com> wrote:

Hello,
>
>I'm in the same situation and I do not understand what is happening. No response so far.
>
>Baudouin
>
>
>2012/8/27 Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
>
>Has anyone received the described letter for the visa on arrival, after emailing visainquiries at igf2012.az ?
>>I emailed August 13, but have had no response.
>>Does anyone have more information? I don't want to re-send if it is just a matter of giving them time...
>>
>>I refer to:
>>
>>b)
        Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the 
participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of 
registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's 
IGF visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ginger
>>Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Foreigners or stateless persons coming to the Republic of Azerbaijan 
for Internet Governance Forum-2012, which will be held in Baku, can 
receive visas from the structural sections of the Consular Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which 
are located in the Baku Heydar Aliyev International Airport or from the 
Consular Depatments of the Republic of Azerbaijan located in foreign 
countries.
>>The upon arrival visa application period starts from 15 October to 8 November, 2012. 
>>There are two supporting documents which will serve as the basis for granting the visa:
>>a)        ‘Confirmation of registration’-form which will be provided by the IGF Secretariat at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/ 
>>and 
>>b)
        Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the 
participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of 
registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's 
IGF visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az 
>>
>>VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
>>Diplo Foundation
>>Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
>>www.diplomacy.edu/ig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On 14 August 2012 04:56, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>>
>>Baudouin, Hi.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:46 PM, Baudouin Schombe
>>><baudouin.schombe at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>> For countries that have no diplomatic representation, is it possible to have
>>>> the visa on arrival?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, exactly.  If your country does not have and Azerbaijan
>>>embassy/consular office you can get a visa on arrival.
>>>
>>>See the link Carlos provided
>>><http://igf2012.com/?mod=content&sub=bottom&id=116&lang=en> for more
>>>information about the forms you need.
>>>
>>>Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think these are provisions that must be considered!
>>>>
>>>> Baudouin
>>>>
>>>> 2012/8/13 Mawaki Chango <kichango at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> [Sigh of relief] Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> m.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>>>>> > On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:
>>>>> >> Hi people,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Maybe most of you have already seen this info.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I've just got confirmation email of my registration for Baku IGF
>>>>> >> reminding me of the info regarding visas in the IGF 2012 website. I
>>>>> >> think the issues regarding visas are settled now (see below). There is
>>>>> >> no info on costs though.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > My understanding is that the visa will be free.  However, checking
>>>>> > this and will get back with confirmation.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Adam
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> frt rgds
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --c.a.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> http://igf2012.com/?mod=content&sub=bottom&id=116&lang=en
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> General information
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Foreigners or stateless persons coming to the Republic of Azerbaijan
>>>>> >> for
>>>>> >> Internet Governance Forum-2012, which will be held in Baku, can receive
>>>>> >> visas from the structural sections of the Consular Department of the
>>>>> >> Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which are
>>>>> >> located in the Baku Heydar Aliyev International Airport or from the
>>>>> >> Consular Depatments of the Republic of Azerbaijan located in foreign
>>>>> >> countries.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The upon arrival visa application period starts from 15 October to 8
>>>>> >> November, 2012. There are two supporting documents which will serve as
>>>>> >> the basis for granting the visa:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> a) ‘Confirmation of registration’-form which will be provided by the
>>>>> >> IGF
>>>>> >> Secretariat at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/
>>>>> >> and
>>>>> >> b) Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the
>>>>> >> participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of
>>>>> >> registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's
>>>>> >> IGF visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>> >>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>>> >> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>>> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>>> >>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>>> >> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>>> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>> >      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>>> > To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>>> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>>> >
>>>>> > For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>>> >      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>>> > To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>>> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>>>
>>>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
>>>> CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
>>>> ACADEMIE DES TIC
>>>> FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
>>>> At-Large Member
>>>> NCSG Member
>>>>
>>>> email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
>>>>          baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
>>>> tél:+243998983491
>>>> skype:b.schombe
>>>> wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
>>>> blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>>
>>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>>
>>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>
>>>For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>
>>>Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>>
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>To be removed from the list, visit:
>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>>For all other list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>>Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
>
>-- 
>SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
>CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
>ACADEMIE DES TIC
>FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
>At-Large Member
>NCSG Member
>
>email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
>         baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
>tél:+243998983491
>skype:b.schombe
>wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
>blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
>
>

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
    governance at lists.igcaucus.org
To be removed from the list, visit:
    http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing

For all other list information and functions, see:
    http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
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To be removed from the list, visit:
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Sat Sep  1 10:57:07 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 20:27:07 +0530
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <504217E7.3030204@panamo.eu>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net>
	<CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<5041EDEA.2050903@panamo.eu>
	<CAEP5zKQo59DcbcE9DXnZFWymi2YvUpCf9efv75iYeXg-bXZ4sg@mail.gmail.com>
	<504217E7.3030204@panamo.eu>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKSKoTAepVMpX2mqBOJLJtX6L=vtXO=9ynNBqU0hZOAidg@mail.gmail.com>

These points seem to be something ICANN needs to declare - there's little
we can guess about it's status unless they make a solid stand on these
points. Again my knowledge of how this would affect us at large is limited
so no comments there.

I keep thinking about companies like toyota, hyundai, philips, etc - all
multinational companies and each handling their own work with pride and
happy to admit they're a professional commercial entity. They all diversify
across continents while keeping their HQ in one place - maybe US, maybe
Japan, whatever.

The primary thing I'm seeing here is - these companies are based on archaic
laws and rules (ok, some new ones) - but still manage to handle a multi
national operation. And they're dealing with tangible goods - but they DO
get the goods to the consumer irrespective of the laws of their HQ country?

I mean if they can do it, without trying to be above and beyond the law,
there must be some way this can apply to ICANN too.

My thinking is - yes, ICANN has to pick out what and how they want to be,
and stick with that image, and live with the consequences of it. We
(technically 'outsiders', like me) cannot pick this for them.


-C

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu> wrote:

>  Le 01/09/12 15:50, Chaitanya Dhareshwar a écrit :
>
> Indeed ICANN *IS* doing a splendid job in terms of a clean simple
> non-bureaucratic process for the public.
>
> Yes, of course, dear Chaitanya.
> But, as in every activity, the world needs to know what sort of
> organization it is.
> A US private one, submitted to commercial laws?
> An international quasi-public organization, immune vis-a-vis commercial
> laws?
> An American agency, working for the American nation interests through the
> world?
>
> Your analyse on this point could help.
>
> Cheers, @+, Dominique
>
> --
> Dominique Lacroix
> Société européenne de l'Internethttp://www.ies-france.eu
> +33 (0)6 63 24 39 14
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
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To be removed from the list, visit:
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Sat Sep  1 11:04:49 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 20:34:49 +0530
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKSKoTAepVMpX2mqBOJLJtX6L=vtXO=9ynNBqU0hZOAidg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net>
	<CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<5041EDEA.2050903@panamo.eu>
	<CAEP5zKQo59DcbcE9DXnZFWymi2YvUpCf9efv75iYeXg-bXZ4sg@mail.gmail.com>
	<504217E7.3030204@panamo.eu>
	<CAEP5zKSKoTAepVMpX2mqBOJLJtX6L=vtXO=9ynNBqU0hZOAidg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKQhGNQPEvw9mutyV5rLgEWoGwN7jHphaMW=j98bsvkRPg@mail.gmail.com>

Btw, if I've written something here that seems stupid, please feel free to
point out. Always a good learning, for me in this case.

-C

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 8:27 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar
<chaitanyabd at gmail.com>wrote:

> These points seem to be something ICANN needs to declare - there's little
> we can guess about it's status unless they make a solid stand on these
> points. Again my knowledge of how this would affect us at large is limited
> so no comments there.
>
> I keep thinking about companies like toyota, hyundai, philips, etc - all
> multinational companies and each handling their own work with pride and
> happy to admit they're a professional commercial entity. They all diversify
> across continents while keeping their HQ in one place - maybe US, maybe
> Japan, whatever.
>
> The primary thing I'm seeing here is - these companies are based on
> archaic laws and rules (ok, some new ones) - but still manage to handle a
> multi national operation. And they're dealing with tangible goods - but
> they DO get the goods to the consumer irrespective of the laws of their HQ
> country?
>
> I mean if they can do it, without trying to be above and beyond the law,
> there must be some way this can apply to ICANN too.
>
> My thinking is - yes, ICANN has to pick out what and how they want to be,
> and stick with that image, and live with the consequences of it. We
> (technically 'outsiders', like me) cannot pick this for them.
>
>
> -C
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu> wrote:
>
>>  Le 01/09/12 15:50, Chaitanya Dhareshwar a écrit :
>>
>> Indeed ICANN *IS* doing a splendid job in terms of a clean simple
>> non-bureaucratic process for the public.
>>
>> Yes, of course, dear Chaitanya.
>> But, as in every activity, the world needs to know what sort of
>> organization it is.
>> A US private one, submitted to commercial laws?
>> An international quasi-public organization, immune vis-a-vis commercial
>> laws?
>> An American agency, working for the American nation interests through the
>> world?
>>
>> Your analyse on this point could help.
>>
>> Cheers, @+, Dominique
>>
>> --
>> Dominique Lacroix
>> Société européenne de l'Internethttp://www.ies-france.eu
>> +33 (0)6 63 24 39 14
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
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____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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To be removed from the list, visit:
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Sat Sep  1 11:12:52 2012
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 10:12:52 -0500
Subject: [governance] visas for azerbaijan on arrival
In-Reply-To: <1346510532.41109.YahooMailNeo@web28702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
References: <CC4E067C.2DA83%tphang@ntu.edu.sg> <5028E26F.6020805@cafonso.ca>
 <CAFabd1KFRY=8riAbw+zkCxbATkhdX5ALcvAM6SWicOtSHCV9cA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACTo+v-PYR=sfwZzTyYN4x6x2_Kg0ysddan_hTy+NAG_vQgxbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPcSPKU4fgDj=AeD0JX-DzjmMK_h+5difX-KHsaRDvGXzNkJdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFabd1+bv=4vorWJW2iGo69k4e2UuROmC+5Wix3YTwh5n+9NNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALCecM9rf0xY43h4HMPz+Bk6xErRE0ov5rxr=DHKkLrCH_X1pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPcSPKUDtfZ3ej93z_RpuJT7eoxyjG3QXM_ZQEA-RY8Jt+qk8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALCecM_597NC6e1nRBL2Bz0sEt2HzikKRQ8k974r6aZic6moPQ@mail.gmail.com> <1346510532.41109.YahooMailNeo@web28702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALCecM8G+Fvis_vx2=UXnUkzC+5uKX1p2BO8nYXXYyGUm6mwUg@mail.gmail.com>

Getting the visa on arrival seems to be much easier if you get the
email/letter from Azerbaijan, print it out, take it with you, along with
your registration for the IGF.

Good luck
Ginger

Ginger (Virginia) Paque

VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
Diplo Foundation
Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
www.diplomacy.edu/ig
**
**



On 1 September 2012 09:42, CAFEC <cafec3m at yahoo.fr> wrote:

> I will do so. But I think I can have visa on arrival.
>
> thanks Ginger
>
> *
> COORDINATION NATIONALE CAFEC
> COORDINATION NATIONALE REPRONTIC*
> courriel:cafec3m at yahoo.fr/repronticrdc3m at yahoo.fr/sam2006 at francophone.net
> téléphone: 00243 998983491
>   ------------------------------
> *De :* Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
> *À :* Baudouin Schombe <baudouin.schombe at gmail.com>
> *Cc :* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp>
> *Envoyé le :* Samedi 1 septembre 2012 14h31
> *Objet :* Re: [governance] visas for azerbaijan on arrival
>
> Hi Baudouin,
> I re-sent my original email, and got a response saying that my email had
> been received and was in processing or accepted. I am now waiting for
> another response.
>
> Good luck.
> Ginger
>
> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>
> VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
> Diplo Foundation
> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
> www.diplomacy.edu/ig
> **
> **
>
>
>
> On 1 September 2012 05:25, Baudouin Schombe <baudouin.schombe at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm in the same situation and I do not understand what is happening. No
> response so far.
>
> Baudouin
>
> 2012/8/27 Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
>
> Has anyone received the described letter for the visa on arrival, after
> emailing visainquiries at igf2012.az ?
> I emailed August 13, but have had no response.
> Does anyone have more information? I don't want to re-send if it is just a
> matter of giving them time...
>
> I refer to:
>
> b) Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the
> participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of
> registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's IGF
> visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
>
> Thanks,
> Ginger
> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>
>
>
> Foreigners or stateless persons coming to the Republic of Azerbaijan for
> Internet Governance Forum-2012, which will be held in Baku, can receive
> visas from the structural sections of the Consular Department of the
> Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which are
> located in the Baku Heydar Aliyev International Airport or from the
> Consular Depatments of the Republic of Azerbaijan located in foreign
> countries.
> *The upon arrival visa application period starts from 15 October to 8
> November, 2012.
> There are two supporting documents which will serve as the basis for
> granting the visa:*
> a) ‘Confirmation of registration’-form which will be provided by the IGF
> Secretariat at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/
> and
> b) Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the
> participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of
> registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's IGF
> visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
>
> VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
> Diplo Foundation
> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
> www.diplomacy.edu/ig
> **
> **
>
>
>
> On 14 August 2012 04:56, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>
> Baudouin, Hi.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:46 PM, Baudouin Schombe
> <baudouin.schombe at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > For countries that have no diplomatic representation, is it possible to
> have
> > the visa on arrival?
> >
>
> Yes, exactly.  If your country does not have and Azerbaijan
> embassy/consular office you can get a visa on arrival.
>
> See the link Carlos provided
> <http://igf2012.com/?mod=content&sub=bottom&id=116&lang=en> for more
> information about the forms you need.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> >
> > I think these are provisions that must be considered!
> >
> > Baudouin
> >
> > 2012/8/13 Mawaki Chango <kichango at gmail.com>
> >>
> >> [Sigh of relief] Thanks!
> >>
> >> m.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
> >> > On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca>
> wrote:
> >> >> Hi people,
> >> >>
> >> >> Maybe most of you have already seen this info.
> >> >>
> >> >> I've just got confirmation email of my registration for Baku IGF
> >> >> reminding me of the info regarding visas in the IGF 2012 website. I
> >> >> think the issues regarding visas are settled now (see below). There
> is
> >> >> no info on costs though.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > My understanding is that the visa will be free.  However, checking
> >> > this and will get back with confirmation.
> >> >
> >> > Adam
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> frt rgds
> >> >>
> >> >> --c.a.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://igf2012.com/?mod=content&sub=bottom&id=116&lang=en
> >> >>
> >> >> General information
> >> >>
> >> >> Foreigners or stateless persons coming to the Republic of Azerbaijan
> >> >> for
> >> >> Internet Governance Forum-2012, which will be held in Baku, can
> receive
> >> >> visas from the structural sections of the Consular Department of the
> >> >> Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which are
> >> >> located in the Baku Heydar Aliyev International Airport or from the
> >> >> Consular Depatments of the Republic of Azerbaijan located in foreign
> >> >> countries.
> >> >>
> >> >> The upon arrival visa application period starts from 15 October to 8
> >> >> November, 2012. There are two supporting documents which will serve
> as
> >> >> the basis for granting the visa:
> >> >>
> >> >> a) ‘Confirmation of registration’-form which will be provided by the
> >> >> IGF
> >> >> Secretariat at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/
> >> >> and
> >> >> b) Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the
> >> >> participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of
> >> >> registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host
> country's
> >> >> IGF visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ____________________________________________________________
> >> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> >> >>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> >> >> To be removed from the list, visit:
> >> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
> >> >>
> >> >> For all other list information and functions, see:
> >> >>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> >> >> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
> >> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
> >> >>
> >> >> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ____________________________________________________________
> >> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> >> >      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> >> > To be removed from the list, visit:
> >> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
> >> >
> >> > For all other list information and functions, see:
> >> >      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> >> > To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
> >> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/
> >> >
> >> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________________________
> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> >>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> >> To be removed from the list, visit:
> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
> >>
> >> For all other list information and functions, see:
> >>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> >> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
> >>
> >> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
> > CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
> > ACADEMIE DES TIC
> > FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
> > At-Large Member
> > NCSG Member
> >
> > email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
> >          baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
> > tél:+243998983491
> > skype:b.schombe
> > wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
> > blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> >      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> > To be removed from the list, visit:
> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
> >
> > For all other list information and functions, see:
> >      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> > To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/
> >
> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
> >
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
>
>
> --
> SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
> CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
> ACADEMIE DES TIC
> FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
> At-Large Member
> NCSG Member
>
> email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
>          baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
> tél:+243998983491
> skype:b.schombe
> wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
> blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
>
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From cafec3m at yahoo.fr  Sat Sep  1 11:29:23 2012
From: cafec3m at yahoo.fr (CAFEC)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 16:29:23 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [governance] visas for azerbaijan on arrival
In-Reply-To: <CALCecM8G+Fvis_vx2=UXnUkzC+5uKX1p2BO8nYXXYyGUm6mwUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CC4E067C.2DA83%tphang@ntu.edu.sg> <5028E26F.6020805@cafonso.ca> <CAFabd1KFRY=8riAbw+zkCxbATkhdX5ALcvAM6SWicOtSHCV9cA@mail.gmail.com> <CACTo+v-PYR=sfwZzTyYN4x6x2_Kg0ysddan_hTy+NAG_vQgxbg@mail.gmail.com> <CAPcSPKU4fgDj=AeD0JX-DzjmMK_h+5difX-KHsaRDvGXzNkJdw@mail.gmail.com> <CAFabd1+bv=4vorWJW2iGo69k4e2UuROmC+5Wix3YTwh5n+9NNw@mail.gmail.com> <CALCecM9rf0xY43h4HMPz+Bk6xErRE0ov5rxr=DHKkLrCH_X1pw@mail.gmail.com> <CAPcSPKUDtfZ3ej93z_RpuJT7eoxyjG3QXM_ZQEA-RY8Jt+qk8A@mail.gmail.com> <CALCecM_597NC6e1nRBL2Bz0sEt2HzikKRQ8k974r6aZic6moPQ@mail.gmail.com> <1346510532.41109.YahooMailNeo@web28702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <CALCecM8G+Fvis_vx2=UXnUkzC+5uKX1p2BO8nYXXYyGUm6mwUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1346513363.14017.YahooMailNeo@web28705.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

I raised the query with the registration confirmation for the IGF 2012 in Baku.
 
 
COORDINATION NATIONALE CAFEC
COORDINATION NATIONALE REPRONTIC
courriel:cafec3m at yahoo.fr/repronticrdc3m at yahoo.fr
téléphone: 00243 998983491


________________________________
 De : Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
À : CAFEC <cafec3m at yahoo.fr> 
Cc : "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Baudouin Schombe <baudouin.schombe at gmail.com>; Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> 
Envoyé le : Samedi 1 septembre 2012 16h12
Objet : Re: [governance] visas for azerbaijan on arrival
 

Getting the visa on arrival seems to be much easier if you get the email/letter from Azerbaijan, print it out, take it with you, along with your registration for the IGF.

Good luck
Ginger

Ginger (Virginia) Paque


VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
Diplo Foundation
Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
www.diplomacy.edu/ig





On 1 September 2012 09:42, CAFEC <cafec3m at yahoo.fr> wrote:

I will do so. But I think I can have visa on arrival.
>
>
>
>thanks Ginger
> 
> 
>COORDINATION NATIONALE CAFEC
>COORDINATION NATIONALE REPRONTIC
>courriel:cafec3m at yahoo.fr/repronticrdc3m at yahoo.fr/sam2006 at francophone.net
>téléphone: 00243 998983491
>
>
>________________________________
> De : Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
>À : Baudouin Schombe <baudouin.schombe at gmail.com> 
>Cc : governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> 
>Envoyé le : Samedi 1 septembre 2012 14h31
>Objet : Re: [governance] visas for azerbaijan on arrival
> 
>
>Hi Baudouin,
>I re-sent my original email, and got a response saying that my email had been received and was in processing or accepted. I am now waiting for another response.
>
>Good luck.
>Ginger
>
>Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>
>
>VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
>Diplo Foundation
>Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
>www.diplomacy.edu/ig
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On 1 September 2012 05:25, Baudouin Schombe <baudouin.schombe at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello,
>>
>>I'm in the same situation and I do not understand what is happening. No response so far.
>>
>>Baudouin
>>
>>
>>2012/8/27 Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
>>
>>Has anyone received the described letter for the visa on arrival, after emailing visainquiries at igf2012.az ?
>>>I emailed August 13, but have had no response.
>>>Does anyone have more information? I don't want to re-send if it is just a matter of giving them time...
>>>
>>>I refer to:
>>>
>>>b)
        Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the 
participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of 
registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's 
IGF visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Ginger
>>>Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Foreigners or stateless persons coming to the Republic of Azerbaijan 
for Internet Governance Forum-2012, which will be held in Baku, can 
receive visas from the structural sections of the Consular Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which 
are located in the Baku Heydar Aliyev International Airport or from the 
Consular Depatments of the Republic of Azerbaijan located in foreign 
countries.
>>>The upon arrival visa application period starts from 15 October to 8 November, 2012. 
>>>There are two supporting documents which will serve as the basis for granting the visa:
>>>a)        ‘Confirmation of registration’-form which will be provided by the IGF Secretariat at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/ 
>>>and 
>>>b)
        Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the 
participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of 
registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's 
IGF visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az 
>>>
>>>VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
>>>Diplo Foundation
>>>Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
>>>www.diplomacy.edu/ig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On 14 August 2012 04:56, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>>>
>>>Baudouin, Hi.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:46 PM, Baudouin Schombe
>>>><baudouin.schombe at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> For countries that have no diplomatic representation, is it possible to have
>>>>> the visa on arrival?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes, exactly.  If your country does not have and Azerbaijan
>>>>embassy/consular office you can get a visa on arrival.
>>>>
>>>>See the link Carlos provided
>>>><http://igf2012.com/?mod=content&sub=bottom&id=116&lang=en> for more
>>>>information about the forms you need.
>>>>
>>>>Adam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think these are provisions that must be considered!
>>>>>
>>>>> Baudouin
>>>>>
>>>>> 2012/8/13 Mawaki Chango <kichango at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Sigh of relief] Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> m.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>>>>>> > On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> >> Hi people,
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Maybe most of you have already seen this info.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I've just got confirmation email of my registration for Baku IGF
>>>>>> >> reminding me of the info regarding visas in the IGF 2012 website. I
>>>>>> >> think the issues regarding visas are settled now (see below). There is
>>>>>> >> no info on costs though.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > My understanding is that the visa will be free.  However, checking
>>>>>> > this and will get back with confirmation.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Adam
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> frt rgds
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> --c.a.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> http://igf2012.com/?mod=content&sub=bottom&id=116&lang=en
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> General information
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Foreigners or stateless persons coming to the Republic of Azerbaijan
>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>> >> Internet Governance Forum-2012, which will be held in Baku, can receive
>>>>>> >> visas from the structural sections of the Consular Department of the
>>>>>> >> Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which are
>>>>>> >> located in the Baku Heydar Aliyev International Airport or from the
>>>>>> >> Consular Depatments of the Republic of Azerbaijan located in foreign
>>>>>> >> countries.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> The upon arrival visa application period starts from 15 October to 8
>>>>>> >> November, 2012. There are two supporting documents which will serve as
>>>>>> >> the basis for granting the visa:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> a) ‘Confirmation of registration’-form which will be provided by the
>>>>>> >> IGF
>>>>>> >> Secretariat at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/
>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>> >> b) Host Country’s Invitation letter which can be obtained by the
>>>>>> >> participant if they send an email request with their ‘confirmation of
>>>>>> >> registration’-form and the scanned passport copy to the host country's
>>>>>> >> IGF visa support desk at visainquiries at igf2012.az
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>> >>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>>>> >> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>>>> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>>>> >>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>>>> >> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>>>> >>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>> >      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>>>> > To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>>>> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>>>> >      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>>>> > To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>>>> >      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>>>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
>>>>> CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
>>>>> ACADEMIE DES TIC
>>>>> FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
>>>>> At-Large Member
>>>>> NCSG Member
>>>>>
>>>>> email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
>>>>>          baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
>>>>> tél:+243998983491
>>>>> skype:b.schombe
>>>>> wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
>>>>> blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>>>
>>>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>>To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>>
>>>>For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>>
>>>>Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>
>>>For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>
>>>Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
>>CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
>>ACADEMIE DES TIC
>>FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
>>At-Large Member
>>NCSG Member
>>
>>email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
>>         baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
>>tél:+243998983491
>>skype:b.schombe
>>wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
>>blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>To be removed from the list, visit:
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>
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>    http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
>Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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From ms.narine.khachatryan at gmail.com  Sat Sep  1 12:56:11 2012
From: ms.narine.khachatryan at gmail.com (Narine Khachatryan)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 20:56:11 +0400
Subject: [governance] Azerbaijan persuaded Hungary to release a convicted
 murderer
Message-ID: <CAPVtaukGtpadab-bFYO=QQ33e7hv=_R_PXGH0S4pfWztCLL6HQ@mail.gmail.com>

*Azerbaijan persuaded Hungary to release a convicted murderer *


The Azeri serviceman, Ramil Safarov, was *given a life sentence *without
parole in 2006 by the Budapest City *Court* for axing to death an unarmed
Armenian Gurgen Markarian during a NATO-sponsored training program in 2004
in Budapest. The murder was done with a particular brutality: *Safarov *had
struck Markaryan *16* times with an *axe*, decapitating him while the
latter was sleeping in his dormitory room.


On Friday (August 31, 2012), Safarov was flown to his home
countryAzerbaijan from Hungary and upon arrival pardoned by president
Aliev. The
White House immediately criticized the decision to free convicted murderer,
and some US newspapers touched upon an Azerbaijan and Hungary’s  deal to
purchase by Azerbaijan of  3 billion euros in Hungarian bonds.

The Hungarian opposition started  demanding the resignation of the
Vice-Prime Minister of Hungary, minister of Justice Tibor Navracsics over
the freed prisoner, while Armenia cut off diplomatic ties with Hungary.  The
question remains, is semi-feudal and oil-rich Azerbaijan so powerful to buy
justice and engage a European country in its dishonest deals?




http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2012/08/197250.htm

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/08/31/statement-nsc-spokesman-tommy-vietor-azerbaijan-s-decision-pardon-ramil-?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl

http://www.armenianweekly.com/2012/08/31/obama-deeply-concerned-about-safarov-pardon/

http://iwpr.net/report-news/murder-case-judgement-reverberates-around-caucasus

http://budapest.sumgait.info/safarov-interrogation.htm


Narine Khachatryan
Media Education Center
Yerevan, Armenia

www.mediaeducation.am
www.safe.am
www.immasin.am
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From pouzin at well.com  Sat Sep  1 13:40:14 2012
From: pouzin at well.com (Louis Pouzin (well))
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 19:40:14 +0200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
Message-ID: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/internet/Domain-names-spark-dispute-among-religious-groups/articleshow/16130800.cms

Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications

https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/viewcomments

*Let's put up a $185K award for the last one !*
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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Sat Sep  1 14:00:06 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 23:30:06 +0530
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>

Wasn't that expected? And what about health and charity and city and rugby
and other absurdly broad TLDs like that.

I guess they're pretty much obliged to tread the fine line, and get
scratched on both sides. This won't be the end of it.

-C

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Louis Pouzin (well) <pouzin at well.com>wrote:

>
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/internet/Domain-names-spark-dispute-among-religious-groups/articleshow/16130800.cms
>
> Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications
>
>
> https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/viewcomments
>
> *Let's put up a $185K award for the last one !*
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Sat Sep  1 14:37:31 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 06:37:31 +1200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiAOJ4tYQVRMwkYZba7WtAaGenQ6-Fj9GLO6kj7sH5rv+Q@mail.gmail.com>

*Juliet:*
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."
Romeo and Juliet (II, ii,
1-2)<http://www.enotes.com/romeo-text/act-ii-scene-ii#rom-2-2-45>

*Summary of Relevance<http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/what-s-name-that-which-we-call-rose>
*

"Romeo Montague and Juliet Capulet meet and fall in love in Shakespeare's
lyrical tale of "star-cross'd" lovers. They are doomed from the start as
members of two warring families. Here Juliet tells Romeo that a name
is an *artificial
and meaningless convention*, and that she loves the person who is called
"Montague", not the Montague name and not the Montague family. Romeo, out
of his passion for Juliet, rejects his family name and vows, as Juliet
asks, to "deny (his) father" and instead be "new baptized" as Juliet's
lover. This one short line encapsulates the central struggle and tragedy of
the play."


Clearly there are people squabbling over generic names, yes the "g" in gTLD
is "generic" which means "Characteristic of or relating to a class or
group". It would be great for those who have issues or comments to make
them where they matter in terms of impact which is
https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/login

The new Application Comment Window has been extended to an additional 45
days which means it's open for comments till the 26th September, 2012.

Sala

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar
<chaitanyabd at gmail.com>wrote:

> Wasn't that expected? And what about health and charity and city and rugby
> and other absurdly broad TLDs like that.
>
> I guess they're pretty much obliged to tread the fine line, and get
> scratched on both sides. This won't be the end of it.
>
> -C
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Louis Pouzin (well) <pouzin at well.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/internet/Domain-names-spark-dispute-among-religious-groups/articleshow/16130800.cms
>>
>> Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications
>>
>>
>> https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/viewcomments
>>
>> *Let's put up a $185K award for the last one !*
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
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>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From lmcknigh at syr.edu  Sat Sep  1 15:01:29 2012
From: lmcknigh at syr.edu (Lee W McKnight)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 19:01:29 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiAOJ4tYQVRMwkYZba7WtAaGenQ6-Fj9GLO6kj7sH5rv+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>,<CAJwbTiAOJ4tYQVRMwkYZba7WtAaGenQ6-Fj9GLO6kj7sH5rv+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B134698@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>

Only 4 comments on average per application?

Internet lawyers and consultants have a growth market here clearly.

And sure igcers should file comments early and often.

Lee


________________________________
From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] on behalf of Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro [salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 2:37 PM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Chaitanya Dhareshwar
Cc: Louis Pouzin (well)
Subject: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest


Juliet:
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2)<http://www.enotes.com/romeo-text/act-ii-scene-ii#rom-2-2-45>

Summary of Relevance<http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/what-s-name-that-which-we-call-rose>

"Romeo Montague and Juliet Capulet meet and fall in love in Shakespeare's lyrical tale of "star-cross'd" lovers. They are doomed from the start as members of two warring families. Here Juliet tells Romeo that a name is an artificial and meaningless convention, and that she loves the person who is called "Montague", not the Montague name and not the Montague family. Romeo, out of his passion for Juliet, rejects his family name and vows, as Juliet asks, to "deny (his) father" and instead be "new baptized" as Juliet's lover. This one short line encapsulates the central struggle and tragedy of the play."


Clearly there are people squabbling over generic names, yes the "g" in gTLD is "generic" which means "Characteristic of or relating to a class or group". It would be great for those who have issues or comments to make them where they matter in terms of impact which is https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/login

The new Application Comment Window has been extended to an additional 45 days which means it's open for comments till the 26th September, 2012.

Sala

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar <chaitanyabd at gmail.com<mailto:chaitanyabd at gmail.com>> wrote:
Wasn't that expected? And what about health and charity and city and rugby and other absurdly broad TLDs like that.

I guess they're pretty much obliged to tread the fine line, and get scratched on both sides. This won't be the end of it.

-C

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Louis Pouzin (well) <pouzin at well.com<mailto:pouzin at well.com>> wrote:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/internet/Domain-names-spark-dispute-among-religious-groups/articleshow/16130800.cms

Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications

https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/viewcomments


Let's put up a $185K award for the last one !



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--
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851




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From karl at cavebear.com  Sat Sep  1 16:07:51 2012
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 13:07:51 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50426B17.3080201@cavebear.com>


When I was on the ICANN board of directors some well intended person
called me up and said that he wanted to apply to ICANN for a top level
domain, something like .christian.

Of course he, like anyone else, should be free to use the internet,
including the domain name system, in ways that are privately beneficial
as long as they don't cause public harm.

Detouring in the story a bit ... Several years back John Romkey and I
proposed an April 1 RFC for a Zen MIB (Management Information Base).  It
would contain zero management variables.  Jon Postel responded by
telling us that we should contemplate the matter for another year.

Back to .christian ... Having learned from Jon my response to this
person was that he ought to consider the difficulties he would encounter
on the road he was considering.  Did he really want to be in the
position of determining who is and who is not appropriate for
.christian?  I reminded him that many wars had been fought over things
similar to that.

In terms of ICANN's new TLD program ... ICANN is, to use what is perhaps
an idiom, between a rock and a hard place.

ICANN could block words - but an argument can be made that just about
any word has troublesome aspects.  ICANN would then have to make
policies about the degree of troublesomeness and that would strike many
of us as verging on censorship.  (Indeed ICANN has already engaged in
this kind of thing via its pro-trademark policies and that has already
extensively shaped DNS as a world of haves and have-nots.)

Or ICANN could turn a blind eye to the strings and simply administer
add/delete requests to the root zone.  But that would allow some people
to "own" some words.  And people would grumble about .christian or
.islam or .church or .nike or ...

Personally I prefer the latter course because it allows the interplay of
forces, many yet invisible, rather than the creation of a catholic
(small 'c', pun intended) overlord of names.

Someone who acquires .islam or .jew will be acquiring trouble.  We will
see money enter the temple as people who buy these kinds of names
offload these difficult assets.

	--karl--


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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Sun Sep  2 03:27:56 2012
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 08:27:56 +0100
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>

In message 
<CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ at mail.gmail.com>, at 
19:40:14 on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, "Louis Pouzin (well)" <pouzin at well.com> 
writes
>Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications

Actually, an average of less than four complaints per application seems 
extraordinarily low to me.

If you regard the comments as an online petition, then typically you'd 
expect it to require a few tens of thousands of people with a common 
view (about each complained-of application) to be persuasive, after all 
there's a worldwide audience for this process.

What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can make a 
complaint which will be heard.
-- 
Roland Perry

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From dl at panamo.eu  Sun Sep  2 06:37:44 2012
From: dl at panamo.eu (Dominique Lacroix)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 12:37:44 +0200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
Message-ID: <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>

Le 02/09/12 09:27, Roland Perry a écrit :
> What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can make 
> a complaint which will be heard.
> -- 
Aren't you joking, Roland, are you?

@+, best, Dominique

-- 
Dominique Lacroix
Société européenne de l'Internet
http://www.ies-france.eu
+33 (0)6 63 24 39 14


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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 06:58:58 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 12:58:58 +0200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
Message-ID: <50433BF2.5020000@gmail.com>

The facts certainly do bear out such an interpretation.

On the other hand, these facts may speak to the point that, there may be 
huge barriers to entry ranging from:

1. "Stakeholders" may not know they do not know (about how to influence 
the system - a huge comparative advantage to the US who has specialists 
linked to the praxis).
2. Cost and familiarity with processes, players and importantly 
prospects of success.
3. Perversity, jeopardy and futility of engagement - linked to prospects 
of success on initiating a "claim"/policy cahnge/intervention.
4. Lack of legitimacy renders every rejected proposal/complaint (yes 
this sounds extreme I know) dubious, notwithstanding the exceptions of 
complaints heard.
5. How decisions are made contextualised in its institutional context 
matters. Corn cannot expect justice from a court of chickens (African 
proverb) or in South Africa. Or analogously as some poet critics said 
about White art in South Africa, we see the bit, the stirrup, the lead 
and the saddle, but where is the horse (paraphrased...)

Perhaps it is not just Parminder, although he seems singled out more 
than others, for posing conjecture/opinion (however well justified and 
reflecting kaleidescopic reality) as fact.

Riaz

On 2012/09/02 09:27 AM, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message 
> <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ at mail.gmail.com>, 
> at 19:40:14 on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, "Louis Pouzin (well)" 
> <pouzin at well.com> writes
>> Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications
>
> Actually, an average of less than four complaints per application 
> seems extraordinarily low to me.
>
> If you regard the comments as an online petition, then typically you'd 
> expect it to require a few tens of thousands of people with a common 
> view (about each complained-of application) to be persuasive, after 
> all there's a worldwide audience for this process.
>
> What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can make 
> a complaint which will be heard.


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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 07:42:45 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 17:12:45 +0530
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <50433BF2.5020000@gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<50433BF2.5020000@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKSpPom_d-YDzrNk_ZS=Kdmk75_5t5vAb1_pof+-sOFkpw@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with you on this Riaz.

In fact if I am to think from my point of view (a quite limited one) - I
don't really see any of these TLDs making any sort of impact to me or
people in similar positions/situations. For example the ".travel" extension
recently was quite a big thing for us (travel industry) but I dont see any
such thing happening with ".rugby" or ".health" or any of them. We already
have a ".travel" that has our company name on it, so we wouldnt even dream
of investing in something bigger (say ".banyan" given that's my current
company's name) - it just doesnt make sense for us.

So what reason would I (or any technology person in the same
situation) have to participate? (just illustrating the mindset)

-C

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:

> The facts certainly do bear out such an interpretation.
>
> On the other hand, these facts may speak to the point that, there may be
> huge barriers to entry ranging from:
>
> 1. "Stakeholders" may not know they do not know (about how to influence
> the system - a huge comparative advantage to the US who has specialists
> linked to the praxis).
> 2. Cost and familiarity with processes, players and importantly prospects
> of success.
> 3. Perversity, jeopardy and futility of engagement - linked to prospects
> of success on initiating a "claim"/policy cahnge/intervention.
> 4. Lack of legitimacy renders every rejected proposal/complaint (yes this
> sounds extreme I know) dubious, notwithstanding the exceptions of
> complaints heard.
> 5. How decisions are made contextualised in its institutional context
> matters. Corn cannot expect justice from a court of chickens (African
> proverb) or in South Africa. Or analogously as some poet critics said about
> White art in South Africa, we see the bit, the stirrup, the lead and the
> saddle, but where is the horse (paraphrased...)
>
> Perhaps it is not just Parminder, although he seems singled out more than
> others, for posing conjecture/opinion (however well justified and
> reflecting kaleidescopic reality) as fact.
>
> Riaz
>
>
> On 2012/09/02 09:27 AM, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> In message <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-**cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@**
>> mail.gmail.com<CA%2BEjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ at mail.gmail.com>>,
>> at 19:40:14 on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, "Louis Pouzin (well)" <pouzin at well.com>
>> writes
>>
>>> Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications
>>>
>>
>> Actually, an average of less than four complaints per application seems
>> extraordinarily low to me.
>>
>> If you regard the comments as an online petition, then typically you'd
>> expect it to require a few tens of thousands of people with a common view
>> (about each complained-of application) to be persuasive, after all there's
>> a worldwide audience for this process.
>>
>> What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can make a
>> complaint which will be heard.
>>
>
>
>
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From ca at cafonso.ca  Sun Sep  2 09:42:17 2012
From: ca at cafonso.ca (Carlos A. Afonso)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 10:42:17 -0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B134698@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>,<CAJwbTiAOJ4tYQVRMwkYZba7WtAaGenQ6-Fj9GLO6kj7sH5rv+Q@mail.gmail.com> <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B134698@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <50436239.5000809@cafonso.ca>

Not comments, Lee. Complaints.

--c.a.

On 09/01/2012 04:01 PM, Lee W McKnight wrote:
> Only 4 comments on average per application?
> 
> Internet lawyers and consultants have a growth market here clearly.
> 
> And sure igcers should file comments early and often.
> 
> Lee
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] on behalf of Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro [salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 2:37 PM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Chaitanya Dhareshwar
> Cc: Louis Pouzin (well)
> Subject: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
> 
> 
> Juliet:
> "What's in a name? That which we call a rose
> By any other name would smell as sweet."
> 
> Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2)<http://www.enotes.com/romeo-text/act-ii-scene-ii#rom-2-2-45>
> 
> Summary of Relevance<http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/what-s-name-that-which-we-call-rose>
> 
> "Romeo Montague and Juliet Capulet meet and fall in love in Shakespeare's lyrical tale of "star-cross'd" lovers. They are doomed from the start as members of two warring families. Here Juliet tells Romeo that a name is an artificial and meaningless convention, and that she loves the person who is called "Montague", not the Montague name and not the Montague family. Romeo, out of his passion for Juliet, rejects his family name and vows, as Juliet asks, to "deny (his) father" and instead be "new baptized" as Juliet's lover. This one short line encapsulates the central struggle and tragedy of the play."
> 
> 
> Clearly there are people squabbling over generic names, yes the "g" in gTLD is "generic" which means "Characteristic of or relating to a class or group". It would be great for those who have issues or comments to make them where they matter in terms of impact which is https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/login
> 
> The new Application Comment Window has been extended to an additional 45 days which means it's open for comments till the 26th September, 2012.
> 
> Sala
> 
> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar <chaitanyabd at gmail.com<mailto:chaitanyabd at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Wasn't that expected? And what about health and charity and city and rugby and other absurdly broad TLDs like that.
> 
> I guess they're pretty much obliged to tread the fine line, and get scratched on both sides. This won't be the end of it.
> 
> -C
> 
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Louis Pouzin (well) <pouzin at well.com<mailto:pouzin at well.com>> wrote:
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/internet/Domain-names-spark-dispute-among-religious-groups/articleshow/16130800.cms
> 
> Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications
> 
> https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/viewcomments
> 
> 
> Let's put up a $185K award for the last one !
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
> 
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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From drc at virtualized.org  Sun Sep  2 10:19:53 2012
From: drc at virtualized.org (David Conrad)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 07:19:53 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <50436239.5000809@cafonso.ca>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>,<CAJwbTiAOJ4tYQVRMwkYZba7WtAaGenQ6-Fj9GLO6kj7sH5rv+Q@mail.gmail.com> <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B134698@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu> <50436239.5000809@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <BAABED74-67FC-4E2B-8ABD-4A3AA68DA909@virtualized.org>

On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:42 AM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:
> Not comments, Lee. Complaints.

There are also statements of support.  It'll be interesting to see the distribution.

Regards,
-drc




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From ca at cafonso.ca  Sun Sep  2 10:35:13 2012
From: ca at cafonso.ca (Carlos A. Afonso)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 11:35:13 -0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <BAABED74-67FC-4E2B-8ABD-4A3AA68DA909@virtualized.org>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>,<CAJwbTiAOJ4tYQVRMwkYZba7WtAaGenQ6-Fj9GLO6kj7sH5rv+Q@mail.gmail.com> <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B134698@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu> <50436239.5000809@cafonso.ca> <BAABED74-67FC-4E2B-8ABD-4A3AA68DA909@virtualized.org>
Message-ID: <50436EA1.3060303@cafonso.ca>

I imagine that there is at least one statement of support per domain:
the one coming from the applicant :)

--c.a.

On 09/02/2012 11:19 AM, David Conrad wrote:
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:42 AM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:
>> Not comments, Lee. Complaints.
> 
> There are also statements of support.  It'll be interesting to see the distribution.
> 
> Regards,
> -drc
> 
> 
> 
> 

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From apisan at unam.mx  Sun Sep  2 10:39:14 2012
From: apisan at unam.mx (Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 14:39:14 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>,<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
Message-ID: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483D7F75@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>

Dominique,

Roland is right. Having served in the ICANN Board for eight years and in other committees and task forces for a bit longer, I can vouch for that. 

Several participants of this list can also testify that a single voice may derail a process and certainly contribute tons of sand and the occassional wrench in the gearbox.

Alejandro Pisanty

! !! !!! !!!!
NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO



+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD

+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO

SMS +525541444475
     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico

Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

________________________________________
Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de Dominique Lacroix [dl at panamo.eu]
Enviado el: domingo, 02 de septiembre de 2012 05:37
Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Asunto: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

Le 02/09/12 09:27, Roland Perry a écrit :
> What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can make
> a complaint which will be heard.
> --
Aren't you joking, Roland, are you?

@+, best, Dominique

--
Dominique Lacroix
Société européenne de l'Internet
http://www.ies-france.eu
+33 (0)6 63 24 39 14



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From ajp at glocom.ac.jp  Sun Sep  2 10:48:55 2012
From: ajp at glocom.ac.jp (Adam Peake)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 23:48:55 +0900
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <50436EA1.3060303@cafonso.ca>
References:  <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>,<CAJw
 bTiAOJ4tYQVRMwkYZba7WtAaGenQ6-Fj9GLO6kj7sH5rv+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B134698@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
 <50436239.5000809@cafonso.ca>
 <BAABED74-67FC-4E2B-8ABD-4A3AA68DA909@virtualized.org>
 <50436EA1.3060303@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <p06240809cc6920f60e9b@[192.168.1.194]>

Expect someone will do some analysis of objections (.NXT 
<http://dot-nxt.com/> and Domain Incite <http://domainincite.com/> 
might have started, but as a pay-for service.)  I've looked at some 
comments, mostly boiler-plate responses from corporations wanting 
further brand protection.

Might be interesting to see comments on community and geographic 
applications.  And the "books", "cloud", "blog", "kids"  type.

Adam



>I imagine that there is at least one statement of support per domain:
>the one coming from the applicant :)
>
>--c.a.
>
>On 09/02/2012 11:19 AM, David Conrad wrote:
>>  On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:42 AM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:
>>>  Not comments, Lee. Complaints.
>>
>>  There are also statements of support.  It'll be interesting to see 
>>the distribution.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>  -drc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
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From drc at virtualized.org  Sun Sep  2 11:02:50 2012
From: drc at virtualized.org (David Conrad)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 08:02:50 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <p06240809cc6920f60e9b@[192.168.1.194]>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>,<CAJw bTiAOJ4tYQVRMwkYZba7WtAaGenQ6-Fj9GLO6kj7sH5rv+Q@mail.gmail.com> <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B134698@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu> <50436239.5000809@cafonso.ca> <BAABED74-67FC-4E2B-8ABD-4A3AA68DA909@virtualized.org> <50436EA1.3060303@cafonso.ca> <p06240809cc6920f60e9b@[192.168.1.194]>
Message-ID: <C079C5F6-DCB0-4802-95B1-6D32EAE099F0@virtualized.org>

> I've looked at some 
> comments, mostly boiler-plate responses from corporations wanting 
> further brand protection.

Picking pages at random, I noticed a number of statements of support for .art, .bible, and .church and against .patagonia, .sex, .adult, and .porn. It might be interesting to track the statements (either in support or against) of individual strings over time -- I suspect there will be some interesting patterns.

Regards,
-drc



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From lmcknigh at syr.edu  Sun Sep  2 14:00:45 2012
From: lmcknigh at syr.edu (Lee W McKnight)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 18:00:45 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <BAABED74-67FC-4E2B-8ABD-4A3AA68DA909@virtualized.org>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>,<CAJwbTiAOJ4tYQVRMwkYZba7WtAaGenQ6-Fj9GLO6kj7sH5rv+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B134698@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
 <50436239.5000809@cafonso.ca>,<BAABED74-67FC-4E2B-8ABD-4A3AA68DA909@virtualized.org>
Message-ID: <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B13480D@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>

Since some of us may get in the game and  - comment - let's be precise on the ICANN rules of the game.

To quote:

"Comments for evaluation panels - Comments may be submitted on any active New gTLD application. Comments directed to the evaluation panels and submitted between 13 June 2012 and 12 August 2012 26 September 2012 will be forwarded to the evaluation panels to review and consider as part of the application's evaluations. Comments submitted outside of this period will be available for public viewing in the View Comments section of this Forum.

Comments on objection grounds - On this forum, you may also submit comments on any application on the basis of one of the four available objection grounds (string confusion, legal rights, limited public interest, community)"

So Carlos, there are only - comments. 

Admittedly in 2 varieties: 'Comments for evaluation panels' and 'comments on objection grounds.' 

Some may think 'comments on objection grounds' should usually be referred to as complaints I admit. So there you go, file a 'comment on objection grounds.' ; )

Lee
________________________________________
From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] on behalf of David Conrad [drc at virtualized.org]
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 10:19 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Subject: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:42 AM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:
> Not comments, Lee. Complaints.

There are also statements of support.  It'll be interesting to see the distribution.

Regards,
-drc





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From jefsey at jefsey.com  Sun Sep  2 07:46:48 2012
From: jefsey at jefsey.com (JFC Morfin)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 13:46:48 +0200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
Message-ID: <E1T8Ehs-0002iz-TW@igcaucus.org>

At 09:27 02/09/2012, Roland Perry wrote:
>What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can 
>make a complaint which will be heard.

I am afraid that what is different about the ICANN system is that no 
one in the world really cares (except those who gambled K$ 185+ in 
this make believe). This is only for the ICANN/NTIA "IN" class of the 
US legacy Internet DNS system.

Time has come to discuss a CS class and a possible ITU class.
jfc




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From ca at cafonso.ca  Sun Sep  2 14:30:41 2012
From: ca at cafonso.ca (Carlos A. Afonso)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 15:30:41 -0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B13480D@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>,<CAJwbTiAOJ4tYQVRMwkYZba7WtAaGenQ6-Fj9GLO6kj7sH5rv+Q@mail.gmail.com> <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B134698@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu> <50436239.5000809@cafonso.ca>,<BAABED74-67FC-4E2B-8ABD-4A3AA68DA909@virtualized.org> <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B13480D@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <5043A5D1.1020004@cafonso.ca>

I do not have any, since the "new gTLDs policy" has been approved and
Icann has already loaded itself with all that money -- point of no
return. Let them have it :)

--c.a.

On 09/02/2012 03:00 PM, Lee W McKnight wrote:
> Since some of us may get in the game and  - comment - let's be precise on the ICANN rules of the game.
> 
> To quote:
> 
> "Comments for evaluation panels - Comments may be submitted on any active New gTLD application. Comments directed to the evaluation panels and submitted between 13 June 2012 and 12 August 2012 26 September 2012 will be forwarded to the evaluation panels to review and consider as part of the application's evaluations. Comments submitted outside of this period will be available for public viewing in the View Comments section of this Forum.
> 
> Comments on objection grounds - On this forum, you may also submit comments on any application on the basis of one of the four available objection grounds (string confusion, legal rights, limited public interest, community)"
> 
> So Carlos, there are only - comments. 
> 
> Admittedly in 2 varieties: 'Comments for evaluation panels' and 'comments on objection grounds.' 
> 
> Some may think 'comments on objection grounds' should usually be referred to as complaints I admit. So there you go, file a 'comment on objection grounds.' ; )
> 
> Lee
> ________________________________________
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] on behalf of David Conrad [drc at virtualized.org]
> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 10:19 AM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> Subject: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:42 AM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:
>> Not comments, Lee. Complaints.
> 
> There are also statements of support.  It'll be interesting to see the distribution.
> 
> Regards,
> -drc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 16:34:31 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 23:34:31 +0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxokQCGe5Cma7=fRONeoc-YgB+k7bVJLbP+WQ4t6Aw8-1Q@mail.gmail.com>

It seems that these religious applications are gaining lots of attention
from the media. I was interviewed by Reuters last week, and the reporter
who interviewed me tried to understand the nature of the sensitivity of
applying for TLDs such as .islam, .halal, and .shia.

The Arab region (Libya, Iraq, Syria...) and the Islamic world (Pakistan,
Kashmir, Afghanistan...) have enough issues to deal with, leave alone
dealing with issues related to the online world.

Fahd

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Louis Pouzin (well) <pouzin at well.com> wrote:

>
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/internet/Domain-names-spark-dispute-among-religious-groups/articleshow/16130800.cms
>
> Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications
>
>
> https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/viewcomments
>
> *Let's put up a $185K award for the last one !*
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 16:39:44 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 23:39:44 +0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxpzUAprAXyCP+QrZ5X4VtKpfj2Gt3VkW0yWJc2RS1V6tw@mail.gmail.com>

Chaitanya, .rugby was approved by the IRB (
http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2061834.html)
before the applicant applied for it.

As for the city TLDs, and since they are geography/community based TLDs,
they also received approvals from their respective cities.

Fahd

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 9:00 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar
<chaitanyabd at gmail.com>wrote:

> Wasn't that expected? And what about health and charity and city and rugby
> and other absurdly broad TLDs like that.
>
> I guess they're pretty much obliged to tread the fine line, and get
> scratched on both sides. This won't be the end of it.
>
> -C
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Louis Pouzin (well) <pouzin at well.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/internet/Domain-names-spark-dispute-among-religious-groups/articleshow/16130800.cms
>>
>> Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications
>>
>>
>> https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/viewcomments
>>
>> *Let's put up a $185K award for the last one !*
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
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>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 16:41:39 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 23:41:39 +0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B134698@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJwbTiAOJ4tYQVRMwkYZba7WtAaGenQ6-Fj9GLO6kj7sH5rv+Q@mail.gmail.com> <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B134698@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxo5XFkPfCoGfXhURF+VbroR3WgBM94QbbP3j_SYpq4--w@mail.gmail.com>

I have already reviewed all applications and made 37 comments in total. A
very interesting process though.

Fahd

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Lee W McKnight <lmcknigh at syr.edu> wrote:

>   Only 4 comments on average per application?
>
> Internet lawyers and consultants have a growth market here clearly.
>
> And sure igcers should file comments early and often.
>
> Lee
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [
> governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] on behalf of Salanieta T.
> Tamanikaiwaimaro [salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 01, 2012 2:37 PM
> *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Chaitanya Dhareshwar
> *Cc:* Louis Pouzin (well)
> *Subject:* Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
>
>    *Juliet:*
> "What's in a name? That which we call a rose
> By any other name would smell as sweet."
> Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2)<http://www.enotes.com/romeo-text/act-ii-scene-ii#rom-2-2-45>
>
>  *Summary of Relevance<http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/what-s-name-that-which-we-call-rose>
> *
>
> "Romeo Montague and Juliet Capulet meet and fall in love in Shakespeare's
> lyrical tale of "star-cross'd" lovers. They are doomed from the start as
> members of two warring families. Here Juliet tells Romeo that a name is an
> *artificial and meaningless convention*, and that she loves the person
> who is called "Montague", not the Montague name and not the Montague
> family. Romeo, out of his passion for Juliet, rejects his family name and
> vows, as Juliet asks, to "deny (his) father" and instead be "new baptized"
> as Juliet's lover. This one short line encapsulates the central struggle
> and tragedy of the play."
>
>
>  Clearly there are people squabbling over generic names, yes the "g" in
> gTLD is "generic" which means "Characteristic of or relating to a class
> or group". It would be great for those who have issues or comments to make
> them where they matter in terms of impact which is
> https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/login
>
> The new Application Comment Window has been extended to an additional 45
> days which means it's open for comments till the 26th September, 2012.
>
> Sala
>
> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar <
> chaitanyabd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Wasn't that expected? And what about health and charity and city and
>> rugby and other absurdly broad TLDs like that.
>>
>>  I guess they're pretty much obliged to tread the fine line, and get
>> scratched on both sides. This won't be the end of it.
>>
>> -C
>>
>>   On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Louis Pouzin (well) <pouzin at well.com>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/internet/Domain-names-spark-dispute-among-religious-groups/articleshow/16130800.cms
>>>
>>> Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications
>>>
>>>
>>> https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/viewcomments
>>>
>>>
>>> *Let's put up a $185K award for the last one !*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>
>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>
>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
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>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>  --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
>  Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 16:47:22 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 23:47:22 +0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <BAABED74-67FC-4E2B-8ABD-4A3AA68DA909@virtualized.org>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEP5zKSFuyMFG6Ad2TBOtQn83C4tC6-qoVx69VJ=azA82s4nWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJwbTiAOJ4tYQVRMwkYZba7WtAaGenQ6-Fj9GLO6kj7sH5rv+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B134698@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
 <50436239.5000809@cafonso.ca> <BAABED74-67FC-4E2B-8ABD-4A3AA68DA909@virtualized.org>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxrycgseo6nOTWHNni4ABzc9n2pGzctg=QVDpxqN2fifwQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> There are also statements of support.  It'll be interesting to see the
> distribution.
>

True. One of the comments that attracted my attention was made my an Indian
singer (or maybe claimed to be so) regarding .music.

Fahd
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 16:49:07 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 23:49:07 +0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>

Dominique,

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu> wrote:

> Le 02/09/12 09:27, Roland Perry a écrit :
>
>  What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can make a
>> complaint which will be heard.
>> --
>>
> Aren't you joking, Roland, are you?
>

Maybe a good example would be the court case that was filed by an earlier
ICANN board member to get access to documents that ICANN rejected to reveal
to him.

Fahd
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 16:54:16 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 23:54:16 +0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKSpPom_d-YDzrNk_ZS=Kdmk75_5t5vAb1_pof+-sOFkpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <50433BF2.5020000@gmail.com> <CAEP5zKSpPom_d-YDzrNk_ZS=Kdmk75_5t5vAb1_pof+-sOFkpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxoGJX8rQzBgd=H77XJA==yZyi8mv5x=bB47wQRMOLmDSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Chaitanya,

In fact if I am to think from my point of view (a quite limited one) - I
> don't really see any of these TLDs making any sort of impact to me or
> people in similar positions/situations.
>

WIPO's latest report on trademarks shows that more than 5 million new
trademarks were registered in 2011, and the same amount during 2010.
Trademark protection is a target here.

In addition, from the many applicants I have talked to, many have set a
target of 100,000 domain names to be sold at the cost of USD 10; thus
making 1 million USD per year. They find the amount to suffice to their
needs.

Fahd
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 17:00:14 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 00:00:14 +0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxokQCGe5Cma7=fRONeoc-YgB+k7bVJLbP+WQ4t6Aw8-1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABBOhxokQCGe5Cma7=fRONeoc-YgB+k7bVJLbP+WQ4t6Aw8-1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxo+6mzuvO4bOPZw+FcG-Tu2A76jaseeo4kXXz9n5rmD3w@mail.gmail.com>

And here is the Reuters report.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/internet-religion-names-idUSL6E8JV2VA20120831

Fahd

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 11:34 PM, Fahd A. Batayneh
<fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>wrote:

> It seems that these religious applications are gaining lots of attention
> from the media. I was interviewed by Reuters last week, and the reporter
> who interviewed me tried to understand the nature of the sensitivity of
> applying for TLDs such as .islam, .halal, and .shia.
>
> The Arab region (Libya, Iraq, Syria...) and the Islamic world (Pakistan,
> Kashmir, Afghanistan...) have enough issues to deal with, leave alone
> dealing with issues related to the online world.
>
> Fahd
>
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 17:16:53 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 09:16:53 +1200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxoGJX8rQzBgd=H77XJA==yZyi8mv5x=bB47wQRMOLmDSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<50433BF2.5020000@gmail.com>
	<CAEP5zKSpPom_d-YDzrNk_ZS=Kdmk75_5t5vAb1_pof+-sOFkpw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABBOhxoGJX8rQzBgd=H77XJA==yZyi8mv5x=bB47wQRMOLmDSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiAxiOyC1TdVkRwae0iFiO9OgVctU504MW-fM1G8JuMfzg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>wrote:

> Chaitanya,
>
>
> In fact if I am to think from my point of view (a quite limited one) - I
>> don't really see any of these TLDs making any sort of impact to me or
>> people in similar positions/situations.
>>
>
> WIPO's latest report on trademarks shows that more than 5 million new
> trademarks were registered in 2011, and the same amount during 2010.
> Trademark protection is a target here.
>
> In addition, from the many applicants I have talked to, many have set a
> target of 100,000 domain names to be sold at the cost of USD 10; thus
> making 1 million USD per year. They find the amount to suffice to their
> needs.
>
> To see the WIPO 2011 Report, visit:
http://www.wipo.int/export/sites/www/freepublications/en/intproperty/941/wipo_pub_941_2011.pdf

The impact of trademarks as well as other things like patents have a
significant impact on countries GDPs.

> Fahd
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 23:04:07 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 06:04:07 +0300
Subject: [governance] Jurisdiction on the Internet
In-Reply-To: <503FAFEE.7080901@gmx.net>
References: <503FAFEE.7080901@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxoQjBqbb0bXdDYZE0Zq52MP33h5vU0iS9UcvziAXsWW_g@mail.gmail.com>

An interesting article. I liked the part that said "*For copyright
infringement cases, could ICANN establish a Uniform Copyright Dispute
Resolution Procedure?*". The article goes on to say "*Under a UCDRP, a
registrar would be compelled to require its registrants to comply with
takedown orders or face the loss of the registration*".

Fahd

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Norbert Klein <nhklein at gmx.net> wrote:

>  Problems With Defining Jurisdiction on the Internet<http://www.circleid.com/posts/20120827_problems_with_defining_jurisdiction_on_the_internet/>
>
>    -
>
>    Aug 27, 2012, By *David Maher* <http://www.circleid.com/members/1867/>
>
>
> http://www.circleid.com/posts/20120827_problems_with_defining_jurisdiction_on_the_internet/
>
>
> Norbert Klein
> ____________________________________________________________
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 23:06:51 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 06:06:51 +0300
Subject: [governance] Microsoft NZ exposes TechEd delegates' passwords
 #Leaked Passwords #Global Unique Identifiers
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiBxRG+T8tMzhGESpcpqoKFaph01nWU4v8vK9NTGKE_9YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJwbTiBxRG+T8tMzhGESpcpqoKFaph01nWU4v8vK9NTGKE_9YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxqqRWSQnGKPT3NVvq6uDqwu1ddXgbOJww+ybvukTw1_JQ@mail.gmail.com>

Way to go Microsoft and good-bye Privacy (at least to those who had their
passwords out in the air).

Fahd

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 12:17 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

> :(
>
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/30/microsoft_new_zealand_exposes_teched_passwords/
>
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 00:20:59 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 09:50:59 +0530
Subject: [governance] Microsoft NZ exposes TechEd delegates' passwords
 #Leaked Passwords #Global Unique Identifiers
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxqqRWSQnGKPT3NVvq6uDqwu1ddXgbOJww+ybvukTw1_JQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJwbTiBxRG+T8tMzhGESpcpqoKFaph01nWU4v8vK9NTGKE_9YQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABBOhxqqRWSQnGKPT3NVvq6uDqwu1ddXgbOJww+ybvukTw1_JQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKRvm-H-VL1Haiyn+LfN-+14KYw7StPjxChfhMuH+cnUEg@mail.gmail.com>

It could have been worse. I mean people could have actually trusted them
with valuable data and lost that.

Nothing like a healthy password leak every now and then - with all the
internet bigwigs - linkedin, FB, etc

-C

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>wrote:

> Way to go Microsoft and good-bye Privacy (at least to those who had their
> passwords out in the air).
>
> Fahd
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 12:17 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
> salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> :(
>>
>>
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/30/microsoft_new_zealand_exposes_teched_passwords/
>>
>>
>> --
>> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
>> P.O. Box 17862
>> Suva
>> Fiji
>>
>> Twitter: @SalanietaT
>> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
>> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Mon Sep  3 03:42:21 2012
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 08:42:21 +0100
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKSpPom_d-YDzrNk_ZS=Kdmk75_5t5vAb1_pof+-sOFkpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <50433BF2.5020000@gmail.com>
 <CAEP5zKSpPom_d-YDzrNk_ZS=Kdmk75_5t5vAb1_pof+-sOFkpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <VU98Xahd9FRQFAwz@internetpolicyagency.com>

In message 
<CAEP5zKSpPom_d-YDzrNk_ZS=Kdmk75_5t5vAb1_pof+-sOFkpw at mail.gmail.com>, at 
17:12:45 on Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Chaitanya Dhareshwar 
<chaitanyabd at gmail.com> writes
>In fact if I am to think from my point of view (a quite limited one) - 
>I don't really see any of these TLDs making any sort of impact to me or 
>people in similar positions/situations. For example the ".travel" 
>extension recently was quite a big thing for us (travel industry) but I 
>dont see any such thing happening with ".rugby" or ".health" or any of 
>them. We already have a ".travel" that has our company name on it, so 
>we wouldnt even dream of investing in something bigger (say ".banyan" 
>given that's my current company's name) - it just doesnt make sense for us.
> 
>So what reason would I (or any technology person in the same 
>situation) have to participate? (just illustrating the mindset)

The reason people should participate is because ICANN is an environment 
where they can. We hear so many complaints about environments where 
people say they can't (with various degrees of justification) that it 
seems to me that failing to contribute to the new gTLD process 
disqualifies you from ever complaining about the outcome.

But you do have to know it's possible. Maybe most people on this list 
know, but I accept there are some outsiders who don't. It was 
instructive seeing a representative from the OECD turn up in Prague in 
June to complain bitterly that the "NGO protection" for 'Red Cross' and 
'Olympics' hadn't been extended to other well known NGOs (including, but 
not limited to, the OECD). The reaction of many in the audience was 
"where have you been the last four years?"

As for whether there's a need for new gTLDS, as we say in Europe this is 
"closing the stable door after the horse has bolted". But one of ICANN's 
mission statements is to increase choice and competition at the gTLD 
level, and it's often forgotten that the ones launched piecemeal over 
the last ten years were done as a pilot study, to see what worked and 
what didn't, what was popular and what wasn't.

I think most people would agree that .cat is a success, as is .eu (which 
I prefer to regard as a 2-letter gTLD for Europe, rather than a ccTLD) 
so that bodes well for other "Regional and sub-regional" gTLDs.

On the other hand, .museum and .aero have not gained much traction, and 
.pro and .name have not attracted the following they were expected to. 
Which might indicate that it's more difficult than people think to make 
registrants self-identify with a non-geographic community.

Meanwhile, I don't see much harm in a very well known trademark such as 
.ibm being used for an organisation's email and web presence (most 
browsers will add a .com today, to make such a url resolve, so it's not 
really a new idea at all.

Time will tell how many of these new gTLDs succeed when registered, and 
which will fall by the wayside during the evaluation phase (because of 
being too similar, too controversial etc). Now's the time to give the 
ones you have objections to, a nudge towards obscurity.
-- 
Roland Perry

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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Mon Sep  3 03:48:28 2012
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 08:48:28 +0100
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <20120902181555.16F4E21AB6@inbound-queue-3.mail.thdo.gradwell.net>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
 <20120902181555.16F4E21AB6@inbound-queue-3.mail.thdo.gradwell.net>
Message-ID: <VH5MTjiMDGRQFAB$@internetpolicyagency.com>

In message 
<20120902181555.16F4E21AB6 at inbound-queue-3.mail.thdo.gradwell.net>, at 
13:46:48 on Sun, 2 Sep 2012, JFC Morfin <jefsey at jefsey.com> writes
>I am afraid that what is different about the ICANN system is that no 
>one in the world really cares (except those who gambled K$ 185+ in this 
>make believe). This is only for the ICANN/NTIA "IN" class of the US 
>legacy Internet DNS system.

If people don't care, what's the harm in them ignoring the whole thing 
and living with the results? Because if they don't care, I assume you 
mean whatever the results are, it won't significantly affect them.

I don't care that Beach Volleyball is now an Olympic sport. I think it's 
a bit lightweight for such a competition, but if the officials and 
athletes are happy, what business of mine is it to spoil their party? 
I'll simply continue to not-watch it, like I don't watch most of the 
other sports.
-- 
Roland Perry

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From shahzad at bytesforall.pk  Mon Sep  3 03:47:03 2012
From: shahzad at bytesforall.pk (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 12:47:03 +0500
Subject: [governance] New policy directive for Internet Filtering in
 Pakistan
In-Reply-To: <CC6A5655.307CE%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
Message-ID: <CC6A56E9.307D0%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>

Dear Colleagues,

More bad news coming out from PakistanŠ so seemingly much talked about
Internet filtering system effectively gets an implementation through this
policy directive. 

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-17209-Govt-orders-blocking-of-all--
blasphemous-pornographic-material-on-net

Best wishes
Shahzad
www.bytesforall.pk



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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 04:36:46 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:36:46 +0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <VH5MTjiMDGRQFAB$@internetpolicyagency.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <20120902181555.16F4E21AB6@inbound-queue-3.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <VH5MTjiMDGRQFAB$@internetpolicyagency.com>
Message-ID: <50446C1E.7090402@gmail.com>

Many NGOs etc participate in settings where they feel compromised (eg 
WTO, WHO, etc). The problem is not participation per se (although a 
strong case can also be made for this), but the relationship from reform 
to more equitable solutions on the radical spectrum.

In other words, what is the middle path... exhortations that intimate 
that participation is the way to go develop this are correct. But from 
what we see in both tenor and substance, this does not seem to be 
intended as an equitable process (on process applying same 
standards/norms irrespective of who is saying it - equitable treatment). 
Unless there is some modicum of openness the quest can be seen as an 
occupation/colonisation of legitimacy. That said, there is always the 
paradox of participation...

As indicated in other threads, what is the trajectory beyond status 
quoism? Minimal accomodationist (where even ICANN shows up "progressive" 
civil society) platforms are simply not it for some of us(/me)...

(And about living with the results, one presumes that meaningful change 
is possible within these fora for issues that are determined by some in 
the South...such optimism is lauded, but we can as always, agree to 
disagree...)
On 2012/09/03 10:48 AM, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message 
> <20120902181555.16F4E21AB6 at inbound-queue-3.mail.thdo.gradwell.net>, at 
> 13:46:48 on Sun, 2 Sep 2012, JFC Morfin <jefsey at jefsey.com> writes
>> I am afraid that what is different about the ICANN system is that no 
>> one in the world really cares (except those who gambled K$ 185+ in 
>> this make believe). This is only for the ICANN/NTIA "IN" class of the 
>> US legacy Internet DNS system.
>
> If people don't care, what's the harm in them ignoring the whole thing 
> and living with the results? Because if they don't care, I assume you 
> mean whatever the results are, it won't significantly affect them.
>
> I don't care that Beach Volleyball is now an Olympic sport. I think 
> it's a bit lightweight for such a competition, but if the officials 
> and athletes are happy, what business of mine is it to spoil their 
> party? I'll simply continue to not-watch it, like I don't watch most 
> of the other sports.


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From sana at bolobhi.org  Mon Sep  3 04:41:28 2012
From: sana at bolobhi.org (Sana Saleem)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 13:41:28 +0500
Subject: [governance] New policy directive for Internet Filtering in
 Pakistan
In-Reply-To: <CC6A56E9.307D0%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
References: <CC6A5655.307CE%shahzad@bytesforall.pk> <CC6A56E9.307D0%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
Message-ID: <CAGyFEg8x4f8aUeg_nkJfwaaQmprD10PPix6PAgRZ6y3p50fV-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Shahzad,
Thanks for this, we have been corresponding with Wahaj us Siraj, ISPAK and
ICT R & & D fund for clarity over the recent statements, and have been able
to get an extensive interview and will be publishing it shortly.

Furthermore, since after our constitutional petition that resulted in a
stay order, fortunately we have legal rights to inquire details regarding
the mentioned method of URL blocking and filtering. Given the state of
right to information act in Pakistan, the process is arduous but will bring
much needed clarity to the situation.

[ Constitution Petition Accepted For Fundamental Rights Online: See
here<http://bolobhi.org/press-release-public-statements/press-releases/constitutional-petition-accepted-for-fundamental-rights-online/>]

Needless to say, the uncertainty is worrisome.

Best,
Sana
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Executive Director, Bolo Bhi, Advocacy-Policy-Research [http://bolobhi.org]
Blogger: Dawn.com [http://blog.dawn.com/author/sana-saleem/]
Global Voices: [http://globalvoicesonline.org/author/sana-saleem/]
The Guardian:[ www.guardian.co.uk/profile/sana-saleem]
Blog: http://sanasaleem.com] Twitter: @sanasaleem<
http://twitter.com/sanasaleem>
 @bolobhi  <http://bolobhi.org/>




On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> More bad news coming out from Pakistan… so seemingly much talked about
> Internet filtering system effectively gets an implementation through this
> policy directive.
>
>
> http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-17209-Govt-orders-blocking-of-all--blasphemous-pornographic-material-on-net
>
> Best wishes
> Shahzad
> www.bytesforall.pk
> *
> *
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 04:43:35 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 14:13:35 +0530
Subject: [governance] New policy directive for Internet Filtering in
 Pakistan
In-Reply-To: <CAGyFEg8x4f8aUeg_nkJfwaaQmprD10PPix6PAgRZ6y3p50fV-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CC6A5655.307CE%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
	<CC6A56E9.307D0%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
	<CAGyFEg8x4f8aUeg_nkJfwaaQmprD10PPix6PAgRZ6y3p50fV-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKQ-mArKcE3eKZCdu-GezdjWiJZO_5h2shuy3=n4qsnfbA@mail.gmail.com>

That's good to hear Sana. Do keep us informed here - this is big news.

-C

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Sana Saleem <sana at bolobhi.org> wrote:

> Hi Shahzad,
> Thanks for this, we have been corresponding with Wahaj us Siraj, ISPAK and
> ICT R & & D fund for clarity over the recent statements, and have been able
> to get an extensive interview and will be publishing it shortly.
>
> Furthermore, since after our constitutional petition that resulted in a
> stay order, fortunately we have legal rights to inquire details regarding
> the mentioned method of URL blocking and filtering. Given the state of
> right to information act in Pakistan, the process is arduous but will bring
> much needed clarity to the situation.
>
> [ Constitution Petition Accepted For Fundamental Rights Online: See here<http://bolobhi.org/press-release-public-statements/press-releases/constitutional-petition-accepted-for-fundamental-rights-online/>]
>
> Needless to say, the uncertainty is worrisome.
>
> Best,
> Sana
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Executive Director, Bolo Bhi, Advocacy-Policy-Research [http://bolobhi.org]
>
> Blogger: Dawn.com [http://blog.dawn.com/author/sana-saleem/]
> Global Voices: [http://globalvoicesonline.org/author/sana-saleem/]
> The Guardian:[ www.guardian.co.uk/profile/sana-saleem]
> Blog: http://sanasaleem.com] Twitter: @sanasaleem<
> http://twitter.com/sanasaleem>
>  @bolobhi  <http://bolobhi.org/>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>wrote:
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> More bad news coming out from Pakistan… so seemingly much talked about
>> Internet filtering system effectively gets an implementation through this
>> policy directive.
>>
>>
>> http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-17209-Govt-orders-blocking-of-all--blasphemous-pornographic-material-on-net
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Shahzad
>> www.bytesforall.pk
>> *
>> *
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
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> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From fulvio.frati at unimi.it  Mon Sep  3 04:45:46 2012
From: fulvio.frati at unimi.it (Fulvio Frati)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 10:45:46 +0200
Subject: [governance] DEADLINE EXTENSION: 8th Int. Conf. on SIGNAL IMAGE
 TECHNOLOGY & INTERNET BASED SYSTEMS (SITIS2012)- SIT Track
Message-ID: <034901cd89b0$82b71b60$88255220$@unimi.it>

          !!!!!!!! DEADLINE EXTENSION : SEPTEMBER 21, 2012 !!!!!!!!!!

 

                                CALL FOR PAPERS

           (Our apologies if you receive multiple copies of this CFP

     ======================================================================

 

             Track Signal and Image Technologies (SIT) - SITIS 2012

                      The 8th International Conference on

                SIGNAL IMAGE TECHNOLOGY & INTERNET BASED SYSTEMS

                November 25 - 29, 2012, SORRENTO Naples - Italy

                    (Sponsored by IEEE, ACM, IFIP  pending)

                           http://www.sitis-conf.org/

 

The SITIS conference is dedicated to research on the technologies used to
represent, share and process 

information in various forms, ranging from signal, image, and multimedia
data to traditional structured 

data and semi structured data found in the web. The track "Signal & Image
Technologies" (SIT) focuses on 

recent developments in digital signal processing and pays particular
attention to evolutions in audiovisual 

signal processing, analysis, coding and authentication, and retrieval
techniques.

 

The Topics of interest include but not limited to: 

 

*Image Processing and Analysis

 

    Image filtering, Restoration, Enhancement

    Image segmentation

    Image acquisition, manipulation and

    compression

    Image synthesis

    Image databases

    Content based image retrieval

    Pattern analysis and recognition

    Shape matching

    Learning and classification

    Colour Imaging

    Multispectral processing

    Stereoscopic and 3D processing

    3D Object Extraction

    Surface reconstruction

    Geometric algorithms

    Computational geometry

 

*Signal processing

    Theory and Methods

    Gibbs models and MRFS

    Digital Filters and Filter Banks design

    Wavelets and Multirate Signal Processing

    Spectral analysis

    Time frequency signal analysis

    Nonlinear and Multidimensional Signal Processing

    Variational formulations

    PDE

    Radar, sonar

    Antennas

    Mobile Signal Processing

    Fast algorithms

    Real time signal processing

    Signal noise control

 

* Applications

 

    Archiving

    Digital video broadcasting

    Biomedical Imaging

    Nuclear Xray, and magnetic resonance imaging

    Tomographic imaging

    Remote Sensing

    Document Image Processing and Analysis

    Astronomy

    Geosciences and environment

    Artificial intelligence applications

    Neural networks applications

    Fuzzy logic applications

    Biometrics and Applications

 

*Image/Video Coding and Authentication

 

    Coding standards

    Image and video over networks

    Error resilience

    Video processing and streaming

    Motion detection and estimation

    Object tracking

    Image sequence processing and analysis

    Multimedia processing

    Video streaming

    Watermark Embedding and Detection

    Reliable Watermark Recovery

    Stochastic Aspects of Data Hiding

 

Submission and publication

--------------------------

The conference will include keynote addresses, tutorials, and regular and
workshop sessions. SITIS’12 invites 

submission of high quality and original papers on the topics listed above.
All submitted papers will be peer-reviewed 

by at least two reviewers for technical merit, originality, significance and
relevance to track topics. Papers must be up 

to 8 pages and follow IEEE double columns publication format.  Accepted
papers will be included in the conference

proceedings and published by IEEE Computer Society and referenced in IEEE
explore and major indexes.

 

Important dates

---------------

* Paper Submission: September 21, 2012

* Acceptance/Reject notification: October 07, 2012

* Camera ready: October 15, 2012

* Author registration: October 20, 2012

 

 

Track Chairs

------------

Bruno Apolloni, University of Milan, Italy 

Albert Dipanda, University of Burgundy, France

 

General Chair

-------------

Ernesto Damiani, Università degli Studi di Milano, Italy

 

Program Chair

-------------

Giuseppe De Pietro, ICAR-CNR, Italy 

 

Local Organization Committee 

--------------------------

Luigi Gallo, ICAR-CNR, Italy 

Marco Anisetti, Università degli Studi di Milano, Italy

Valerio Bellandi, Università degli Studi di Milano, Italy

Fulvio Frati, Università degli Studi di Milano, Italy

 

 

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From sana at bolobhi.org  Mon Sep  3 04:46:42 2012
From: sana at bolobhi.org (Sana Saleem)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 13:46:42 +0500
Subject: [governance] New policy directive for Internet Filtering in
 Pakistan
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKQ-mArKcE3eKZCdu-GezdjWiJZO_5h2shuy3=n4qsnfbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CC6A5655.307CE%shahzad@bytesforall.pk> <CC6A56E9.307D0%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
 <CAGyFEg8x4f8aUeg_nkJfwaaQmprD10PPix6PAgRZ6y3p50fV-Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAEP5zKQ-mArKcE3eKZCdu-GezdjWiJZO_5h2shuy3=n4qsnfbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGyFEg-wTiCS4sugPrGQpvKYx8Dn=1QXkoJEPJrGqnaK7Tj-hQ@mail.gmail.com>

Chaitanya, thank you. Will definitely do. I think it is most important to
back all our advocacy for research. In the past govt's throwing away
directive and rolling it back has been exhausting.

As advocacy group that focuses researched backed advocacy to influence
policy change, I feel it's important to inform netizens and subsequently
encourage them to ask questions of the government.

Following the issue very closely and will release more information.

Best,
Sana

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Executive Director, Bolo Bhi, Advocacy-Policy-Research [http://bolobhi.org]
Blogger: Dawn.com [http://blog.dawn.com/author/sana-saleem/]
Global Voices: [http://globalvoicesonline.org/author/sana-saleem/]
The Guardian:[ www.guardian.co.uk/profile/sana-saleem]
Blog: http://sanasaleem.com] Twitter: @sanasaleem<
http://twitter.com/sanasaleem>
 @bolobhi  <http://bolobhi.org/>




On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar
<chaitanyabd at gmail.com>wrote:

> That's good to hear Sana. Do keep us informed here - this is big news.
>
> -C
>
> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Sana Saleem <sana at bolobhi.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Shahzad,
>> Thanks for this, we have been corresponding with Wahaj us Siraj, ISPAK
>> and ICT R & & D fund for clarity over the recent statements, and have been
>> able to get an extensive interview and will be publishing it shortly.
>>
>> Furthermore, since after our constitutional petition that resulted in a
>> stay order, fortunately we have legal rights to inquire details regarding
>> the mentioned method of URL blocking and filtering. Given the state of
>> right to information act in Pakistan, the process is arduous but will bring
>> much needed clarity to the situation.
>>
>> [ Constitution Petition Accepted For Fundamental Rights Online: See here<http://bolobhi.org/press-release-public-statements/press-releases/constitutional-petition-accepted-for-fundamental-rights-online/>]
>>
>> Needless to say, the uncertainty is worrisome.
>>
>> Best,
>> Sana
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Executive Director, Bolo Bhi, Advocacy-Policy-Research [
>> http://bolobhi.org]
>> Blogger: Dawn.com [http://blog.dawn.com/author/sana-saleem/]
>> Global Voices: [http://globalvoicesonline.org/author/sana-saleem/]
>> The Guardian:[ www.guardian.co.uk/profile/sana-saleem]
>> Blog: http://sanasaleem.com] Twitter: @sanasaleem<
>> http://twitter.com/sanasaleem>
>>  @bolobhi  <http://bolobhi.org/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>
>>> More bad news coming out from Pakistan… so seemingly much talked about
>>> Internet filtering system effectively gets an implementation through this
>>> policy directive.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-17209-Govt-orders-blocking-of-all--blasphemous-pornographic-material-on-net
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>> Shahzad
>>> www.bytesforall.pk
>>> *
>>> *
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>
>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>
>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
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From fulvio.frati at unimi.it  Mon Sep  3 05:12:03 2012
From: fulvio.frati at unimi.it (Fulvio Frati)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:12:03 +0200
Subject: [governance] DEADLINE EXTENSION: 8th Int. Conf. on SIGNAL IMAGE
 TECHNOLOGY & INTERNET BASED SYSTEMS (SITIS2012)- IBCS Track
Message-ID: <040601cd89b4$2f3b33a0$8db19ae0$@unimi.it>

[Apologies if you receive multiple copies of this message]


============================================================================

                                CALL FOR PAPERS

              Internet-Based Computing and Systems (IBCS) track at

 

                SITIS 2012 - The 8th International Conference on

                SIGNAL IMAGE TECHNOLOGY & INTERNET BASED SYSTEMS

 

                In cooperation with IEEE Technical Committee on

                         Multimedia Computing (pending)

 

                 November 25-29, 2012, SORRENTO - Naples, Italy

 

                           http://www.sitis-conf.org/

 

============================================================================

 

 

The SITIS conference is dedicated to research on the technologies used to

represent, share and process information in various forms, ranging from

signal, image, and multimedia data to traditional structured data and semi

structured data found in the web.  

 

The focus of the track on Internet Based Systems and Computing is on

emerging and novel concepts, architectures and methodologies for information

management. 

Novel architectures are being proposed to allow resource sharing and

distributed processing of data with increasing complexity. 

Cloud computing, peer to peer computing, mobile information systems,

semantic based applications, and decision support systems are a few examples

of these applications and systems. 

 

The Topics of interest include (but are not limited to):

 

Data semantics

* Multiple Representation

* Ontologies

* Conceptual Data Modeling

* Knowledge Representation and Reasoning

* Metadata

* Evolution and Change

* Web Semantics and Semi Structured Data

* Semantic Caching

* Data Warehousing and Semantic

* Semantics in Data Visualization

* Semantic Services for Mobile Users

* Applications of Semantic-Driven Approaches

 

Web-Centric Systems

* Semantic Web and Web Service

* Web Services and Service Computing

* Semantics of Web Services Compositions

* Future Internet for Enterprise Systems

* Hypermedia and Adaptation

* E-Commerce and E-Learning

* Data Mining Methods and Web

* Machine Learning

 

Advanced Information Systems and Applications

* Spatial Modeling and Geographical Information Systems (GIS)

* GIS and Sustainable Development

* Environmental GIS

* GIS and Remote Sensing

* Urban GIS

* Spatial, temporal modeling semantics

 

Information System Interoperability

* Digital Libraries

* Semantic Interoperability and Semantic Mediators

* Ontologies Based Systems

* Contextual Reasoning in Distributed Ontologies

 

Emergent Semantics

* Context-Dependent Semantics

* Contextual Reasoning in Distributed Ontologies

* Ontologies Based Systems

* Context-Dependent Semantics

* Communication in Multi-Agents Systems

* Emergent Semantic Interoperability in Large-Scale Systems

* Emergent Semantics in Content Retrieval Systems

 

Cooperative information and Distributed Systems

* Information Sharing

* Cloud computing for Business

* Peer To Peer Computing and Applications

* Knowledge and Semantic Grid

* Semantics Of Peer Data Management Systems

* Mobile Information Systems and Computing

 

Multimedia and application

* Image and Video Databases

* Image and Video Indexing and Retrieval

* Emergent Semantics in Content Retrieval Systems

* Semantics and Meta Data in Multimedia Systems

* Content-Based Indexing and Search

* Multimedia Data Modeling and Visualization

* Tools, Benchmarks, Evaluation Protocols and Standards 

 

Information security

* Security Modeling and Access Control Protocol

* Intrusion Avoidance, Detection, and Response

* Web Security and Supporting Systems Security

* Denial of Service: Attacks and Countermeasures

* Intellectual Property Protection

* Fundamental Services on Network and Distributed Systems

* Security and Privacy for Emerging Technologies

* Trust based systems

 

 

==== Submission and publication ====

 

The conference will include keynote addresses, tutorials, and regular and

workshop sessions. 

SITIS'12 invites submission of high quality and original papers on the

topics listed above.  

Papers must be up to 8 pages and follow IEEE double columns publication

format. 

All submitted papers will be peer-reviewed by at least two reviewers for

technical merit, originality, significance and relevance to track topics.

Accepted papers will be included in the conference proceedings and published

by IEEE Computer Society and referenced in IEEE explore and major indexes.

 

SITIS'12 online submission system:

http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=sitis2012

 

 

==== Important Dates ====

 

* Paper Submission:      September 21, 2012

* Acceptance/Reject notification: October 07, 2012

* Camera ready:                             October 15, 2012

* Author registration:   October 20, 2012

 

 

==== Program Committee ====

 

General Chair

* Ernesto Damiani, University of Milan, Italy

 

Program Chair

* Giuseppe De Pietro, ICAR-CNR, Italy

 

Track Chairs

* Giandomenico Spezzano, ICAR-CNR, Italy

* William I. Grosky, University of Michigan-Dearborn, USA

 

Local Organizing Committee

* Luigi Gallo, ICAR-CNR, Italy

* Marco Anisetti, University of Milan, Italy

* Valerio Bellandi, University of Milan, Italy

* Fulvio Frati, University of Milan, Italy

 

==== Contact ====

 

info at sitis-conf.org

 

 

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From avri at ella.com  Mon Sep  3 06:13:53 2012
From: avri at ella.com (Avri Doria)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 06:13:53 -0400
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com> <50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net> <CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com> <50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <C4E3880D-81F1-4553-B455-3DE94B1EF0D8@ella.com>


On 25 Aug 2012, at 07:56, parminder wrote:

> No, it will make European/ Indian decision applicable *only* to ICM registry and *not* to the ICANN. This is a straight forward and obvious fact despite your very clever attempt to twist it to suit you. 


On the contrary various rulings in various countries against Internet companies such as Google and Twitter (I think there are examples in other fields like mining), show that when a company has an office/staff in a country, not only is the company liable for negative rulings, sometimes the employees are arrested.  I would think that qualifies as having an effect.  But certainly, the US courts have the greatest leverage by far so far.

I agree full heartedly that ICANN MUST internationalize and have thought so since the days of WGIG.  And while it creeps toward more international accountability, it is true that it remains primarily under US legal control, and has agreed to maintain that. Additionally the IANA contract bid required a US company, which did not help things. Part of the problem with changing over to a more international arrangements, e.g. a host country agreement + with some country (perhaps even the US), is that it is hard to do and no one has come up with a good detailed plan* yet for dealing with of ICANN governance-by-contract in an internationalized environment.  Well that, and ICANN also does not seem to have the will for such a change.

For years, a few people inside ICANN have been pushing for real work on solving the problem of ICANN internationalization to little avail - maybe with a new regime in charge of ICANN over the next year, this will happen.  I'll keep pushing for it.

avri

* there have been hand-waving plans that could be explored
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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 06:20:30 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 15:50:30 +0530
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <C4E3880D-81F1-4553-B455-3DE94B1EF0D8@ella.com>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net>
	<CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net>
	<C4E3880D-81F1-4553-B455-3DE94B1EF0D8@ella.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKTvySxzYDpAYWaNA-nZaNSs69FRUQmq5fiX4iLUL9ir2g@mail.gmail.com>

Very true Avri, telecom has a very good example here in India

Take Vodafone as an example. The government here modified the tax law with
retrospective effect from 1960-something just to get them to pay a few
billion rupees extra in taxes. Though Vodafone wasnt an Indian entity they
bought an office (and linked services) in India - yet the rules in India -
modified RETROSPECTIVELY - still affect them. So if the government were to
pursue they could technically recover taxes from them.

What are the hand-waving options btw? They sound interesting :)

-C

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Avri Doria <avri at ella.com> wrote:

>
> On 25 Aug 2012, at 07:56, parminder wrote:
>
> > No, it will make European/ Indian decision applicable *only* to ICM
> registry and *not* to the ICANN. This is a straight forward and obvious
> fact despite your very clever attempt to twist it to suit you.
>
>
> On the contrary various rulings in various countries against Internet
> companies such as Google and Twitter (I think there are examples in other
> fields like mining), show that when a company has an office/staff in a
> country, not only is the company liable for negative rulings, sometimes the
> employees are arrested.  I would think that qualifies as having an effect.
>  But certainly, the US courts have the greatest leverage by far so far.
>
> I agree full heartedly that ICANN MUST internationalize and have thought
> so since the days of WGIG.  And while it creeps toward more international
> accountability, it is true that it remains primarily under US legal
> control, and has agreed to maintain that. Additionally the IANA contract
> bid required a US company, which did not help things. Part of the problem
> with changing over to a more international arrangements, e.g. a host
> country agreement + with some country (perhaps even the US), is that it is
> hard to do and no one has come up with a good detailed plan* yet for
> dealing with of ICANN governance-by-contract in an internationalized
> environment.  Well that, and ICANN also does not seem to have the will for
> such a change.
>
> For years, a few people inside ICANN have been pushing for real work on
> solving the problem of ICANN internationalization to little avail - maybe
> with a new regime in charge of ICANN over the next year, this will happen.
>  I'll keep pushing for it.
>
> avri
>
> * there have been hand-waving plans that could be explored
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Mon Sep  3 07:07:06 2012
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 12:07:06 +0100
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
Message-ID: <jqcRICua9IRQFAkB@internetpolicyagency.com>

In message <504336F8.90809 at panamo.eu>, at 12:37:44 on Sun, 2 Sep 2012, 
Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu> writes
>> What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can make 
>>a complaint which will be heard.

>Aren't you joking, Roland, are you?

You've not seen Paul Foody in action then?
-- 
Roland Perry

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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Mon Sep  3 07:56:42 2012
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 12:56:42 +0100
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
 <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CsE5Jcx6rJRQFAwk@internetpolicyagency.com>

In message 
<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw at mail.gmail.com>, at 
23:49:07 on Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com> 
writes
>What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can make a 
>complaint which will be heard.
>--
>Aren't you joking, Roland, are you?
>
>Maybe a good example would be the court case that was filed by an 
>earlier ICANN board member to get access to documents that ICANN 
>rejected to reveal to him

I've never understood what kind of deadlock they got themselves into for 
that to be necessary. However, it's a very different exercise to making 
yourself heard within the Policy Development Process.
-- 
Roland Perry

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From dl at panamo.eu  Mon Sep  3 08:06:33 2012
From: dl at panamo.eu (Dominique Lacroix)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 14:06:33 +0200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <jqcRICua9IRQFAkB@internetpolicyagency.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <jqcRICua9IRQFAkB@internetpolicyagency.com>
Message-ID: <50449D49.5040502@panamo.eu>

Le 03/09/12 13:07, Roland Perry a écrit :
> In message <504336F8.90809 at panamo.eu>, at 12:37:44 on Sun, 2 Sep 2012, 
> Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu> writes
>>> What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can 
>>> make a complaint which will be heard.
>> Aren't you joking, Roland, are you?
> You've not seen Paul Foody in action then?
Of course, not. Who is he, please?


@+, Dom

-- 
Dominique Lacroix
Société européenne de l'Internet
http://www.ies-france.eu
+33 (0)6 63 24 39 14

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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Mon Sep  3 08:59:11 2012
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 13:59:11 +0100
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <50449D49.5040502@panamo.eu>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
 <jqcRICua9IRQFAkB@internetpolicyagency.com> <50449D49.5040502@panamo.eu>
Message-ID: <X+dcd+0fmKRQFAjV@internetpolicyagency.com>

In message <50449D49.5040502 at panamo.eu>, at 14:06:33 on Mon, 3 Sep 2012, 
Dominique Lacroix <dl at panamo.eu> writes
>What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can make a 
>complaint which will be heard.
---
>Aren't you joking, Roland, are you?
---
>You've not seen Paul Foody in action then?
---
>Of course, not. Who is he, please

He's a regular contributor to ICANN meetings, and no doubt also their 
public comment process.

http://prague44.icann.org/node/31829
-- 
Roland Perry

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From hakik at hakik.org  Mon Sep  3 09:21:26 2012
From: hakik at hakik.org (Hakikur Rahman)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 14:21:26 +0100
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell  Trouble
 for ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKTvySxzYDpAYWaNA-nZaNSs69FRUQmq5fiX4iLUL9ir2g@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net>
 <CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net>
 <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
 <5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net>
 <C4E3880D-81F1-4553-B455-3DE94B1EF0D8@ella.com>
 <CAEP5zKTvySxzYDpAYWaNA-nZaNSs69FRUQmq5fiX4iLUL9ir2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1T8Wao-0008Pf-JB@se5.mailspamprotection.com>

Totally agree. In case of Bangladesh, I remember those monopoly days 
when cellular phone came first. Now with the soft policy of the 
government and the increased competition, penetration to the Internet 
through the cellular phone is becoming more popular (and acceptable) 
due to various pricing plans.

Best regards,
Hakikur

At 11:20 AM 9/3/2012, Chaitanya Dhareshwar wrote:
>Very true Avri, telecom has a very good example here in India
>
>Take Vodafone as an example. The government here modified the tax 
>law with retrospective effect from 1960-something just to get them 
>to pay a few billion rupees extra in taxes. Though Vodafone wasnt an 
>Indian entity they bought an office (and linked services) in India - 
>yet the rules in India - modified RETROSPECTIVELY - still affect 
>them. So if the government were to pursue they could technically 
>recover taxes from them.
>
>What are the hand-waving options btw? They sound interesting :)
>
>-C
>
>On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Avri Doria 
><<mailto:avri at ella.com>avri at ella.com> wrote:
>
>On 25 Aug 2012, at 07:56, parminder wrote:
>
> > No, it will make European/ Indian decision applicable *only* to 
> ICM registry and *not* to the ICANN. This is a straight forward and 
> obvious fact despite your very clever attempt to twist it to suit you.
>
>
>On the contrary various rulings in various countries against 
>Internet companies such as Google and Twitter (I think there are 
>examples in other fields like mining), show that when a company has 
>an office/staff in a country, not only is the company liable for 
>negative rulings, sometimes the employees are arrested.  I would 
>think that qualifies as having an effect.  But certainly, the US 
>courts have the greatest leverage by far so far.
>
>I agree full heartedly that ICANN MUST internationalize and have 
>thought so since the days of WGIG.  And while it creeps toward more 
>international accountability, it is true that it remains primarily 
>under US legal control, and has agreed to maintain that. 
>Additionally the IANA contract bid required a US company, which did 
>not help things. Part of the problem with changing over to a more 
>international arrangements, e.g. a host country agreement + with 
>some country (perhaps even the US), is that it is hard to do and no 
>one has come up with a good detailed plan* yet for dealing with of 
>ICANN governance-by-contract in an internationalized 
>environment.  Well that, and ICANN also does not seem to have the 
>will for such a change.
>
>For years, a few people inside ICANN have been pushing for real work 
>on solving the problem of ICANN internationalization to little avail 
>- maybe with a new regime in charge of ICANN over the next year, 
>this will happen.  I'll keep pushing for it.
>
>avri
>
>* there have been hand-waving plans that could be explored
>
>____________________________________________________________
>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>To be removed from the list, visit:
> 
><http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing>http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
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> 
><http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance>http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
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>      <http://www.igcaucus.org/>http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
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><http://translate.google.com/translate_t>http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
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From shahzad at bytesforall.pk  Mon Sep  3 12:39:29 2012
From: shahzad at bytesforall.pk (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 21:39:29 +0500
Subject: [governance] Pakistan: PTA blocks website against its own chief
In-Reply-To: <CC6A56E9.307D0%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
Message-ID: <CC6AD35A.3087B%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>

Folks,

This is one classic example that how PTA will use different reasons and
excuses to filter the Internet to curb citizens voices and that may
eventually include political discourse.

http://www.pakistanpressfoundation.org/latest-news/56863

Best wishes and regards

Shahzad



From:  Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
Reply-To:  <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Shahzad Ahmad
<shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
Date:  Monday, September 3, 2012 12:47 PM
To:  "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
Subject:  [governance] New policy directive for Internet Filtering in
Pakistan

Dear Colleagues,

More bad news coming out from PakistanŠ so seemingly much talked about
Internet filtering system effectively gets an implementation through this
policy directive. 

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-17209-Govt-orders-blocking-of-all--
blasphemous-pornographic-material-on-net

Best wishes
Shahzad
www.bytesforall.pk

____________________________________________________________ You received
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From karl at cavebear.com  Mon Sep  3 13:31:04 2012
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 10:31:04 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>

On 09/02/2012 01:49 PM, Fahd A. Batayneh wrote:
    Le 02/09/12 09:27, Roland Perry a écrit :
> 
>         What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can
>         make a complaint which will be heard.

> Maybe a good example would be the court case that was filed by an
> earlier ICANN board member to get access to documents that ICANN
> rejected to reveal to him.

I am that board member.

Have you ever tried to chop eucalyptus logs with an ax?  The wood is so
rubbery that the blade just bounces off, leaving only a small notch: a
lot of effort for little progress.

ICANN is like a eucalyptus log.  If you want to affect it don't bring an
ax; bring a chain saw.

ICANN did not change much after my law suite prevailed.  In fact in some
ways they changed their procedures to become even more secretive.  For
instance their law firm changed their billing procedures so that rather
than enumerating the specific items of work and charges for that work
the monthly statements became a one-line statement of the total amount
of money due for the month's work.  This was done, I believe, to prevent
any future board member from evaluating the nature and quality of
ICANN's massive outflows of money to the law firm that created ICANN.

Attacks on me made by ICANN in their legal filings were, to my mind,
personal, gratuitous, unprofessional, and, of course, unfounded.  A
decade has passed and I can't remember whether we moved to exclude those
on the grounds that ICANN's "evidence" was not relevant to the case at
hand or whether we left it in as demonstrative of ICANN's way of
reacting to those it considered hostile.

Even after the court threw out ICANN's defenses and granted me nearly
every thing that I had asked ICANN's press releases tried to
characterize their utter defeat as if they had won a great victory.

And I am still ostracized by many former ICANN board members for taking
(and, of course, winning) that completely justified legal action.

Many of the case materials are online:

> https://w2.eff.org/Infrastructure/DNS_control/ICANN_IANA_IAHC/Auerbach_v_ICANN/

What surprised me the most was the degree to which ICANN was, and I
believe remains, an entity that does not comprehend the role of its
board of directors, both as a collective body and as individual members.

The larger consideration is that ICANN has always had an institutional
paranoia the engenders an automatic, visceral hostility to things that
are not delivered wrapped with almost sycophantic deference.

	--karl--




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From jstyre at jstyre.com  Mon Sep  3 14:00:34 2012
From: jstyre at jstyre.com (James S. Tyre)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 11:00:34 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com> <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <00d201cd89fe$0462e160$0d28a420$@jstyre.com>

> I am that board member.

And I was your lead lawyer.  (Which, obviously, you know, but most here presumably don't.)

> Attacks on me made by ICANN in their legal filings were, to my mind, personal,
> gratuitous, unprofessional, and, of course, unfounded.  A decade has passed and I
> can't remember whether we moved to exclude those on the grounds that ICANN's
> "evidence" was not relevant to the case at hand or whether we left it in as
> demonstrative of ICANN's way of reacting to those it considered hostile.

We filed token objections to some of it.  The Court ruled in your favor without really addressing those objections.  My particular favorite was Vint introducing a strongly worded email from John Gilmore to Vint as "evidence" of your supposedly bad character.

> Even after the court threw out ICANN's defenses and granted me nearly every thing that
> I had asked ICANN's press releases tried to characterize their utter defeat as if they
> had won a great victory.

At least Louis gave us ICANN Staff coffee mugs to show for it.  I still have mine.  '-)

--
James S. Tyre
Law Offices of James S. Tyre
10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512
Culver City, CA 90230-4969
310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
jstyre at jstyre.com
Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation
https://www.eff.org


> -----Original Message-----
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-
> request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Karl Auerbach
> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 10:31 AM
> To: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com
> Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> Subject: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
> 
> On 09/02/2012 01:49 PM, Fahd A. Batayneh wrote:
>     Le 02/09/12 09:27, Roland Perry a écrit :
> >
> >         What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can
> >         make a complaint which will be heard.
> 
> > Maybe a good example would be the court case that was filed by an
> > earlier ICANN board member to get access to documents that ICANN
> > rejected to reveal to him.
> 
> I am that board member.
> 
> Have you ever tried to chop eucalyptus logs with an ax?  The wood is so rubbery that
> the blade just bounces off, leaving only a small notch: a lot of effort for little
> progress.
> 
> ICANN is like a eucalyptus log.  If you want to affect it don't bring an ax; bring a
> chain saw.
> 
> ICANN did not change much after my law suite prevailed.  In fact in some ways they
> changed their procedures to become even more secretive.  For instance their law firm
> changed their billing procedures so that rather than enumerating the specific items of
> work and charges for that work the monthly statements became a one-line statement of
> the total amount of money due for the month's work.  This was done, I believe, to
> prevent any future board member from evaluating the nature and quality of ICANN's
> massive outflows of money to the law firm that created ICANN.
> 
> Attacks on me made by ICANN in their legal filings were, to my mind, personal,
> gratuitous, unprofessional, and, of course, unfounded.  A decade has passed and I
> can't remember whether we moved to exclude those on the grounds that ICANN's
> "evidence" was not relevant to the case at hand or whether we left it in as
> demonstrative of ICANN's way of reacting to those it considered hostile.
> 
> Even after the court threw out ICANN's defenses and granted me nearly every thing that
> I had asked ICANN's press releases tried to characterize their utter defeat as if they
> had won a great victory.
> 
> And I am still ostracized by many former ICANN board members for taking (and, of
> course, winning) that completely justified legal action.
> 
> Many of the case materials are online:
> 
> > https://w2.eff.org/Infrastructure/DNS_control/ICANN_IANA_IAHC/Auerbach
> > _v_ICANN/
> 
> What surprised me the most was the degree to which ICANN was, and I believe remains,
> an entity that does not comprehend the role of its board of directors, both as a
> collective body and as individual members.
> 
> The larger consideration is that ICANN has always had an institutional paranoia the
> engenders an automatic, visceral hostility to things that are not delivered wrapped
> with almost sycophantic deference.
> 
> 	--karl--
> 
> 
> 



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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 14:30:48 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 06:30:48 +1200
Subject: [governance] Pakistan: PTA blocks website against its own chief
In-Reply-To: <CC6AD35A.3087B%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
References: <CC6A56E9.307D0%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
	<CC6AD35A.3087B%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiBn_n84jFLYr-M-CU+sU2m1Jb3afg=J6-cJQHGyHc_5+w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Shahzad,

If your Constitution has certain civil liberties enshrined in it. Why don't
you consider constitutional redress and you can suss out if people and
organisations are keen to support you in sending in amicus briefs with
appropriate case authorities for the matter once it is in motion.

Kind Regards,
Sala

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:39 AM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>wrote:

> Folks,
>
> This is one classic example that how PTA will use different reasons and
> excuses to filter the Internet to curb citizens voices and that may
> eventually include political discourse.
>
> http://www.pakistanpressfoundation.org/latest-news/56863
>
> Best wishes and regards
>
> Shahzad
>
>
>
> From: Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
> Reply-To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Shahzad Ahmad <
> shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
> Date: Monday, September 3, 2012 12:47 PM
> To: "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
> Subject: [governance] New policy directive for Internet Filtering in
> Pakistan
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> More bad news coming out from Pakistan… so seemingly much talked about
> Internet filtering system effectively gets an implementation through this
> policy directive.
>
>
> http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-17209-Govt-orders-blocking-of-all--blasphemous-pornographic-material-on-net
>
> Best wishes
> Shahzad
> www.bytesforall.pk
> *
> *
> ____________________________________________________________ You received
> this message as a subscriber on the list: governance at lists.igcaucus.orgTo be removed from the list, visit:
> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing For all other list information and
> functions, see: http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance To edit your
> profile and to find the IGC's charter, see: http://www.igcaucus.org/Translate this email:
> http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From shahzad at bytesforall.pk  Mon Sep  3 14:41:28 2012
From: shahzad at bytesforall.pk (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 23:41:28 +0500
Subject: [governance] Pakistan: PTA blocks website against its own chief
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiBn_n84jFLYr-M-CU+sU2m1Jb3afg=J6-cJQHGyHc_5+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CC6AF018.3088F%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>

That may not work Sala for several reasons,

Constitutional provisions are marred with several vague definitions and
qualifications ;)

But yes we are consulting with our partners and will get back with updates.

Best wishes and regards
Shahzad


From:  "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro"
<salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
Reply-To:  <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro"
<salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
Date:  Monday, September 3, 2012 11:30 PM
To:  <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
Subject:  Re: [governance] Pakistan: PTA blocks website against its own
chief

Dear Shahzad, 

If your Constitution has certain civil liberties enshrined in it. Why don't
you consider constitutional redress and you can suss out if people and
organisations are keen to support you in sending in amicus briefs with
appropriate case authorities for the matter once it is in motion.

Kind Regards,
Sala

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:39 AM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> This is one classic example that how PTA will use different reasons and
> excuses to filter the Internet to curb citizens voices and that may eventually
> include political discourse.
> 
> http://www.pakistanpressfoundation.org/latest-news/56863
> 
> Best wishes and regards
> 
> Shahzad
> 
> 
> 
> From:  Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
> Reply-To:  <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Shahzad Ahmad
> <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
> Date:  Monday, September 3, 2012 12:47 PM
> To:  "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
> Subject:  [governance] New policy directive for Internet Filtering in Pakistan
> 
> Dear Colleagues,
> 
> More bad news coming out from PakistanŠ so seemingly much talked about
> Internet filtering system effectively gets an implementation through this
> policy directive.
> 
> http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-17209-Govt-orders-blocking-of-all--bl
> asphemous-pornographic-material-on-net
> 
> Best wishes
> Shahzad
> www.bytesforall.pk <http://www.bytesforall.pk>
> 
> ____________________________________________________________ You received this
> message as a subscriber on the list: governance at lists.igcaucus.org To be
> removed from the list, visit: http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing For all
> other list information and functions, see:
> http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance To edit your profile and to find the
> IGC's charter, see: http://www.igcaucus.org/ Translate this email:
> http://translate.google.com/translate_t
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
> 
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
> 
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
> 



-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851

 


____________________________________________________________ You received
this message as a subscriber on the list: governance at lists.igcaucus.org To
be removed from the list, visit: http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing For
all other list information and functions, see:
http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance To edit your profile and to find
the IGC's charter, see: http://www.igcaucus.org/ Translate this email:
http://translate.google.com/translate_t

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From nne75 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 14:47:56 2012
From: nne75 at yahoo.com (Nnenna)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 11:47:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [governance] Visa letters for Baku are being sent.  I have received
 one
Message-ID: <1346698076.15752.YahooMailNeo@web130106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi people,
 
I reveived:
 
"Hello,


pls. find attached the respective invitation letter. Looking forward to see you in Baku.

-- 
Best Regards,


Murad Maksudov
IGF Host Country Secretariat,
Visa Department
+994 70 2100900"
 
FYI




Nnenna  Nwakanma |  Founder and CEO, NNENNA.ORG  |  Consultants
Information | Communications | Technology and Events | for Development
Cote d'Ivoire (+225)| Tel: 225 27144 | Fax  224 26471 |Mob. 07416820
Ghana: +233 249561345| Nigeria: +234 8101887065| http://www.nnenna.org 
nnenna at nnenna.org| @nnenna | Skype - nnenna75 | nnennaorg.blogspot.com
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From sana at bolobhi.org  Mon Sep  3 15:15:16 2012
From: sana at bolobhi.org (Sana Saleem)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 00:15:16 +0500
Subject: [governance] Pakistan: PTA blocks website against its own chief
In-Reply-To: <CC6AF018.3088F%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
References: <CAJwbTiBn_n84jFLYr-M-CU+sU2m1Jb3afg=J6-cJQHGyHc_5+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CC6AF018.3088F%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
Message-ID: <CAGyFEg8nhezj-dtYUPdX-QC=nTq9hhDvL7JMB8+_cN=iOtsQ8w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Sala,

You're spot on about suing constitutional rights to fight back. We along
with other civil society members filed a constitutional petition for
fundamental rights online and were able to get a stay order on ad hoc
blocking by the PTA,
see here:
http://bolobhi.org/press-release-public-statements/press-releases/constitutional-petition-accepted-for-fundamental-rights-online/

Also your point about other organizations teaming up is spot on, again.

We issued a joint statement with ten global organizations working on
freedom of expression and their support helped a great deal:
http://bolobhi.org/press-release-public-statements/press-releases/global-coalition-of-ngos-call-for-official-withdrawal-of-censorship-plans/

Important to note that all ad hoc blocking since after the stay order is
contempt of court, and we are already working on following up and
challenging it in Sindh, Islamabad and Lahore High Court with our Partner
organization Subh-e-Nau.
Meanwhile all these directives are being collected as proof, you can find
e-legislation timeline since 2006 here:
http://bolobhi.org/resources/state-of-internet-in-pakistan-e-regulations-timeline/


Best and thank you for your support for freedom of expression and internet
freedom in Pakistan.

Best,
Sana

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Executive Director, Bolo Bhi, Advocacy-Policy-Research [http://bolobhi.org]
Blogger: Dawn.com [http://blog.dawn.com/author/sana-saleem/]
Global Voices: [http://globalvoicesonline.org/author/sana-saleem/]
The Guardian:[ www.guardian.co.uk/profile/sana-saleem]
Blog: http://sanasaleem.com] Twitter: @sanasaleem<
http://twitter.com/sanasaleem>
 @bolobhi  <http://bolobhi.org/>




On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>wrote:

> That may not work Sala for several reasons,
>
> Constitutional provisions are marred with several vague definitions and
> qualifications ;)
>
> But yes we are consulting with our partners and will get back with
> updates.
>
> Best wishes and regards
> Shahzad
>
>
>  From: "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro" <
> salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, "Salanieta T.
> Tamanikaiwaimaro" <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
> Date: Monday, September 3, 2012 11:30 PM
>
> To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk
> >
> Subject: Re: [governance] Pakistan: PTA blocks website against its own
> chief
>
> Dear Shahzad,
>
> If your Constitution has certain civil liberties enshrined in it. Why
> don't you consider constitutional redress and you can suss out if people
> and organisations are keen to support you in sending in amicus briefs with
> appropriate case authorities for the matter once it is in motion.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Sala
>
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:39 AM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> This is one classic example that how PTA will use different reasons and
>> excuses to filter the Internet to curb citizens voices and that may
>> eventually include political discourse.
>>
>> http://www.pakistanpressfoundation.org/latest-news/56863
>>
>> Best wishes and regards
>>
>> Shahzad
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
>> Reply-To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Shahzad Ahmad <
>> shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
>> Date: Monday, September 3, 2012 12:47 PM
>> To: "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>> Subject: [governance] New policy directive for Internet Filtering in
>> Pakistan
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> More bad news coming out from Pakistan… so seemingly much talked about
>> Internet filtering system effectively gets an implementation through this
>> policy directive.
>>
>>
>> http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-17209-Govt-orders-blocking-of-all--blasphemous-pornographic-material-on-net
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Shahzad
>> www.bytesforall.pk
>> *
>> *
>> ____________________________________________________________ You received
>> this message as a subscriber on the list: governance at lists.igcaucus.orgTo be removed from the list, visit:
>> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing For all other list information and
>> functions, see: http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance To edit your
>> profile and to find the IGC's charter, see: http://www.igcaucus.org/Translate this email:
>> http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________ You received
> this message as a subscriber on the list: governance at lists.igcaucus.orgTo be removed from the list, visit:
> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing For all other list information and
> functions, see: http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance To edit your
> profile and to find the IGC's charter, see: http://www.igcaucus.org/Translate this email:
> http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 15:32:11 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 07:32:11 +1200
Subject: [governance] Pakistan: PTA blocks website against its own chief
In-Reply-To: <CAGyFEg8nhezj-dtYUPdX-QC=nTq9hhDvL7JMB8+_cN=iOtsQ8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJwbTiBn_n84jFLYr-M-CU+sU2m1Jb3afg=J6-cJQHGyHc_5+w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CC6AF018.3088F%shahzad@bytesforall.pk>
	<CAGyFEg8nhezj-dtYUPdX-QC=nTq9hhDvL7JMB8+_cN=iOtsQ8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiDDWP8u7skE_8u=NUBx1LaqrGvK3B9i8uQsXLezWsf5PQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Sana,

Excellent update. Without a doubt the Court won't find it amusing as well.

It is good that you are exhausting all avenues locally within Pakistan to
get traction. It will also be great to work towards strategic expansion of
outreach into educating people in non confrontational, creative ways of
having respect for collaboration.

I have no doubt that you are already engaged in doing this. It will help to
start witha  few and peer education is critical whether trainings are for
Judges, Judges can train Judges so seeking assistance from countries where
they can allocate human resource training in specific areas. It will need a
long term strategic approach and the point is to identify all possible
fears such as "erosion of culture" or "trampling of values etc" and find
ways to build bridges.

A good neutral way to do this would be through projects where you can all
work on. You probably are already doing this. I am excited about the good
work that you are all doing in Pakistan. Well wishes Sana.

Best Regards,
Sala

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Sana Saleem <sana at bolobhi.org> wrote:

> Hi Sala,
>
> You're spot on about suing constitutional rights to fight back. We along
> with other civil society members filed a constitutional petition for
> fundamental rights online and were able to get a stay order on ad hoc
> blocking by the PTA,
> see here:
> http://bolobhi.org/press-release-public-statements/press-releases/constitutional-petition-accepted-for-fundamental-rights-online/
>
> Also your point about other organizations teaming up is spot on, again.
>
> We issued a joint statement with ten global organizations working on
> freedom of expression and their support helped a great deal:
> http://bolobhi.org/press-release-public-statements/press-releases/global-coalition-of-ngos-call-for-official-withdrawal-of-censorship-plans/
>
> Important to note that all ad hoc blocking since after the stay order is
> contempt of court, and we are already working on following up and
> challenging it in Sindh, Islamabad and Lahore High Court with our Partner
> organization Subh-e-Nau.
> Meanwhile all these directives are being collected as proof, you can find
> e-legislation timeline since 2006 here:
>
> http://bolobhi.org/resources/state-of-internet-in-pakistan-e-regulations-timeline/
>
>
> Best and thank you for your support for freedom of expression and internet
> freedom in Pakistan.
>
> Best,
> Sana
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Executive Director, Bolo Bhi, Advocacy-Policy-Research [http://bolobhi.org]
>
> Blogger: Dawn.com [http://blog.dawn.com/author/sana-saleem/]
> Global Voices: [http://globalvoicesonline.org/author/sana-saleem/]
> The Guardian:[ www.guardian.co.uk/profile/sana-saleem]
> Blog: http://sanasaleem.com] Twitter: @sanasaleem<
> http://twitter.com/sanasaleem>
>  @bolobhi  <http://bolobhi.org/>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>wrote:
>
>> That may not work Sala for several reasons,
>>
>> Constitutional provisions are marred with several vague definitions and
>> qualifications ;)
>>
>> But yes we are consulting with our partners and will get back with
>> updates.
>>
>> Best wishes and regards
>> Shahzad
>>
>>
>>  From: "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro" <
>> salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
>> Reply-To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, "Salanieta T.
>> Tamanikaiwaimaro" <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
>> Date: Monday, September 3, 2012 11:30 PM
>>
>> To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Shahzad Ahmad <
>> shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
>> Subject: Re: [governance] Pakistan: PTA blocks website against its own
>> chief
>>
>> Dear Shahzad,
>>
>> If your Constitution has certain civil liberties enshrined in it. Why
>> don't you consider constitutional redress and you can suss out if people
>> and organisations are keen to support you in sending in amicus briefs with
>> appropriate case authorities for the matter once it is in motion.
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> Sala
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:39 AM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>wrote:
>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> This is one classic example that how PTA will use different reasons and
>>> excuses to filter the Internet to curb citizens voices and that may
>>> eventually include political discourse.
>>>
>>> http://www.pakistanpressfoundation.org/latest-news/56863
>>>
>>> Best wishes and regards
>>>
>>> Shahzad
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
>>> Reply-To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Shahzad Ahmad <
>>> shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
>>> Date: Monday, September 3, 2012 12:47 PM
>>> To: "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>>> Subject: [governance] New policy directive for Internet Filtering in
>>> Pakistan
>>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>
>>> More bad news coming out from Pakistan… so seemingly much talked about
>>> Internet filtering system effectively gets an implementation through this
>>> policy directive.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-17209-Govt-orders-blocking-of-all--blasphemous-pornographic-material-on-net
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>> Shahzad
>>> www.bytesforall.pk
>>> *
>>> *
>>> ____________________________________________________________ You
>>> received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>> governance at lists.igcaucus.org To be removed from the list, visit:
>>> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing For all other list information
>>> and functions, see: http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance To edit
>>> your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>> http://www.igcaucus.org/ Translate this email:
>>> http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
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>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
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>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
>> P.O. Box 17862
>> Suva
>> Fiji
>>
>> Twitter: @SalanietaT
>> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
>> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________ You received
>> this message as a subscriber on the list: governance at lists.igcaucus.orgTo be removed from the list, visit:
>> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing For all other list information and
>> functions, see: http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance To edit your
>> profile and to find the IGC's charter, see: http://www.igcaucus.org/Translate this email:
>> http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
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>> For all other list information and functions, see:
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>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
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>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From sana at bolobhi.org  Mon Sep  3 15:44:30 2012
From: sana at bolobhi.org (Sana Saleem)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 00:44:30 +0500
Subject: [governance] Pakistan: PTA blocks website against its own chief
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiDDWP8u7skE_8u=NUBx1LaqrGvK3B9i8uQsXLezWsf5PQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJwbTiBn_n84jFLYr-M-CU+sU2m1Jb3afg=J6-cJQHGyHc_5+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CC6AF018.3088F%shahzad@bytesforall.pk> <CAGyFEg8nhezj-dtYUPdX-QC=nTq9hhDvL7JMB8+_cN=iOtsQ8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJwbTiDDWP8u7skE_8u=NUBx1LaqrGvK3B9i8uQsXLezWsf5PQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGyFEg-8ghPHJouppMLPsCjxkJOm2DRqNxadZOr5Sxh3Jya39Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Sala,

Thanks so much. The support from the global community is overwhelming.
Indeed we are focusing on training especially of judges,lawyers as well as
journalist in order to encourage collaboration and use all avenues
possible. In complete agreement here regarding focusing on
non-confrontational and creative methods.

Will be happy to hear more suggestions from the group, or perhaps we can
take this off the list. Shameless plug, since we believe in research backed
advocacy to influence policy change, one of our usual strategies is to
engage key players and help bring facts to educate audience and motivate
them to take action.

One such recent campaign is against the blackout of cellular services as a
security measure, we are doing a series of video interviews with security
experts, telecom representatives as well as human rights to educate people
about the facts and to enable them to enable them to make informed choices.

Here's part one of the series with security experts:
http://bolobhi.org/pakistans-suspension-of-mobile-services-was-it-necessary/


Very excited and eager to hear more suggestions on creative methods we can
adapt for strategic expansion of outreach,

Best,
Sana
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Executive Director, Bolo Bhi, Advocacy-Policy-Research [http://bolobhi.org]
Blogger: Dawn.com [http://blog.dawn.com/author/sana-saleem/]
Global Voices: [http://globalvoicesonline.org/author/sana-saleem/]
The Guardian:[ www.guardian.co.uk/profile/sana-saleem]
Blog: http://sanasaleem.com] Twitter: @sanasaleem<
http://twitter.com/sanasaleem>
 @bolobhi  <http://bolobhi.org/>




On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:32 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Sana,
>
> Excellent update. Without a doubt the Court won't find it amusing as well.
>
> It is good that you are exhausting all avenues locally within Pakistan to
> get traction. It will also be great to work towards strategic expansion of
> outreach into educating people in non confrontational, creative ways of
> having respect for collaboration.
>
> I have no doubt that you are already engaged in doing this. It will help
> to start witha  few and peer education is critical whether trainings are
> for Judges, Judges can train Judges so seeking assistance from countries
> where they can allocate human resource training in specific areas. It will
> need a long term strategic approach and the point is to identify all
> possible fears such as "erosion of culture" or "trampling of values etc"
> and find ways to build bridges.
>
> A good neutral way to do this would be through projects where you can all
> work on. You probably are already doing this. I am excited about the good
> work that you are all doing in Pakistan. Well wishes Sana.
>
> Best Regards,
> Sala
>
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Sana Saleem <sana at bolobhi.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Sala,
>>
>> You're spot on about suing constitutional rights to fight back. We along
>> with other civil society members filed a constitutional petition for
>> fundamental rights online and were able to get a stay order on ad hoc
>> blocking by the PTA,
>> see here:
>> http://bolobhi.org/press-release-public-statements/press-releases/constitutional-petition-accepted-for-fundamental-rights-online/
>>
>> Also your point about other organizations teaming up is spot on, again.
>>
>> We issued a joint statement with ten global organizations working on
>> freedom of expression and their support helped a great deal:
>> http://bolobhi.org/press-release-public-statements/press-releases/global-coalition-of-ngos-call-for-official-withdrawal-of-censorship-plans/
>>
>> Important to note that all ad hoc blocking since after the stay order is
>> contempt of court, and we are already working on following up and
>> challenging it in Sindh, Islamabad and Lahore High Court with our Partner
>> organization Subh-e-Nau.
>> Meanwhile all these directives are being collected as proof, you can find
>> e-legislation timeline since 2006 here:
>>
>> http://bolobhi.org/resources/state-of-internet-in-pakistan-e-regulations-timeline/
>>
>>
>> Best and thank you for your support for freedom of expression and
>> internet freedom in Pakistan.
>>
>> Best,
>> Sana
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Executive Director, Bolo Bhi, Advocacy-Policy-Research [
>> http://bolobhi.org]
>> Blogger: Dawn.com [http://blog.dawn.com/author/sana-saleem/]
>> Global Voices: [http://globalvoicesonline.org/author/sana-saleem/]
>> The Guardian:[ www.guardian.co.uk/profile/sana-saleem]
>> Blog: http://sanasaleem.com] Twitter: @sanasaleem<
>> http://twitter.com/sanasaleem>
>>  @bolobhi  <http://bolobhi.org/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>wrote:
>>
>>> That may not work Sala for several reasons,
>>>
>>> Constitutional provisions are marred with several vague definitions and
>>> qualifications ;)
>>>
>>> But yes we are consulting with our partners and will get back with
>>> updates.
>>>
>>> Best wishes and regards
>>> Shahzad
>>>
>>>
>>>  From: "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro" <
>>> salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
>>> Reply-To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, "Salanieta T.
>>> Tamanikaiwaimaro" <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Monday, September 3, 2012 11:30 PM
>>>
>>> To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Shahzad Ahmad <
>>> shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Pakistan: PTA blocks website against its own
>>> chief
>>>
>>> Dear Shahzad,
>>>
>>> If your Constitution has certain civil liberties enshrined in it. Why
>>> don't you consider constitutional redress and you can suss out if people
>>> and organisations are keen to support you in sending in amicus briefs with
>>> appropriate case authorities for the matter once it is in motion.
>>>
>>> Kind Regards,
>>> Sala
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:39 AM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Folks,
>>>>
>>>> This is one classic example that how PTA will use different reasons and
>>>> excuses to filter the Internet to curb citizens voices and that may
>>>> eventually include political discourse.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.pakistanpressfoundation.org/latest-news/56863
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes and regards
>>>>
>>>> Shahzad
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
>>>> Reply-To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, Shahzad Ahmad <
>>>> shahzad at bytesforall.pk>
>>>> Date: Monday, September 3, 2012 12:47 PM
>>>> To: "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>>>> Subject: [governance] New policy directive for Internet Filtering in
>>>> Pakistan
>>>>
>>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>>
>>>> More bad news coming out from Pakistan… so seemingly much talked about
>>>> Internet filtering system effectively gets an implementation through this
>>>> policy directive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-17209-Govt-orders-blocking-of-all--blasphemous-pornographic-material-on-net
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes
>>>> Shahzad
>>>> www.bytesforall.pk
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> ____________________________________________________________ You
>>>> received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>> governance at lists.igcaucus.org To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing For all other list information
>>>> and functions, see: http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance To edit
>>>> your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>> http://www.igcaucus.org/ Translate this email:
>>>> http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>>
>>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>>
>>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
>>> P.O. Box 17862
>>> Suva
>>> Fiji
>>>
>>> Twitter: @SalanietaT
>>> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
>>> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________ You
>>> received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>> governance at lists.igcaucus.org To be removed from the list, visit:
>>> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing For all other list information
>>> and functions, see: http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance To edit
>>> your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>> http://www.igcaucus.org/ Translate this email:
>>> http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>
>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>
>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 16:09:14 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 22:09:14 +0200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
 <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com> <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxqoV9S4SGxJ1uhmO+ume2-0YONOXRVAwvh23cDvnwu3GQ@mail.gmail.com>

Way to go Karl, I admire your stance.

To be honest here, I am not very happy with some current board members of
ICANN as I feel that they are in to fill-out  numbers and show the world
the diversity ICANN possesses (I do not want to mention anyone in specific
here).

On the contrary, it is a pity when professional people devote their time to
a cause that is running against the waves.

Fahd

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:

> On 09/02/2012 01:49 PM, Fahd A. Batayneh wrote:
>     Le 02/09/12 09:27, Roland Perry a écrit :
> >
> >         What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can
> >         make a complaint which will be heard.
>
> > Maybe a good example would be the court case that was filed by an
> earlier ICANN board member to get access to    > documents that ICANN
> rejected to reveal to him.
>
> I am that board member.
>
> Have you ever tried to chop eucalyptus logs with an ax?  The wood is so
> rubbery that the blade just bounces off, leaving only a small notch: a lot
> of effort for little progress.
>
> ICANN is like a eucalyptus log.  If you want to affect it don't bring an
> ax; bring a chain saw.
>
> ICANN did not change much after my law suite prevailed.  In fact in some
> ways they changed their procedures to become even more secretive.  For
> instance their law firm changed their billing procedures so that rather
> than enumerating the specific items of work and charges for that work the
> monthly statements became a one-line statement of the total amount of money
> due for the month's work.  This was done, I believe, to prevent any future
> board member from evaluating the nature and quality of ICANN's massive
> outflows of money to the law firm that created ICANN.
>
> Attacks on me made by ICANN in their legal filings were, to my mind,
> personal, gratuitous, unprofessional, and, of course, unfounded.  A decade
> has passed and I can't remember whether we moved to exclude those on the
> grounds that ICANN's "evidence" was not relevant to the case at hand or
> whether we left it in as demonstrative of ICANN's way of
> reacting to those it considered hostile.
>
> Even after the court threw out ICANN's defenses and granted me nearly
> every thing that I had asked ICANN's press releases tried to characterize
> their utter defeat as if they had won a great victory.
>
> And I am still ostracized by many former ICANN board members for taking
> (and, of course, winning) that completely justified legal action.
>
> Many of the case materials are online:
>
> >
> https://w2.eff.org/Infrastructure/DNS_control/ICANN_IANA_IAHC/Auerbach_v_ICANN/
>
> What surprised me the most was the degree to which ICANN was, and I
> believe remains, an entity that does not comprehend the role of its board
> of directors, both as a collective body and as individual members.
>
> The larger consideration is that ICANN has always had an institutional
> paranoia the engenders an automatic, visceral hostility to things that are
> not delivered wrapped with almost sycophantic deference.
>
>         --karl--
>
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 16:10:22 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 22:10:22 +0200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <00d201cd89fe$0462e160$0d28a420$@jstyre.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
 <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com> <00d201cd89fe$0462e160$0d28a420$@jstyre.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxr__bay6Mxs0TDxj7QjAk-rjeGZQwVjQEK_e2TRrg=Umw@mail.gmail.com>

Way to go, the whole family is on-board now!

Fahd

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 8:00 PM, James S. Tyre <jstyre at jstyre.com> wrote:

> > I am that board member.
>
> And I was your lead lawyer.  (Which, obviously, you know, but most here
> presumably don't.)
>
> > Attacks on me made by ICANN in their legal filings were, to my mind,
> personal,
> > gratuitous, unprofessional, and, of course, unfounded.  A decade has
> passed and I
> > can't remember whether we moved to exclude those on the grounds that
> ICANN's
> > "evidence" was not relevant to the case at hand or whether we left it in
> as
> > demonstrative of ICANN's way of reacting to those it considered hostile.
>
> We filed token objections to some of it.  The Court ruled in your favor
> without really addressing those objections.  My particular favorite was
> Vint introducing a strongly worded email from John Gilmore to Vint as
> "evidence" of your supposedly bad character.
>
> > Even after the court threw out ICANN's defenses and granted me nearly
> every thing that
> > I had asked ICANN's press releases tried to characterize their utter
> defeat as if they
> > had won a great victory.
>
> At least Louis gave us ICANN Staff coffee mugs to show for it.  I still
> have mine.  '-)
>
> --
> James S. Tyre
> Law Offices of James S. Tyre
> 10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512
> Culver City, CA 90230-4969
> 310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
> jstyre at jstyre.com
> Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation
> https://www.eff.org
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-
> > request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Karl Auerbach
> > Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 10:31 AM
> > To: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com
> > Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> > Subject: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
> >
> > On 09/02/2012 01:49 PM, Fahd A. Batayneh wrote:
> >     Le 02/09/12 09:27, Roland Perry a écrit :
> > >
> > >         What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice
> can
> > >         make a complaint which will be heard.
> >
> > > Maybe a good example would be the court case that was filed by an
> > > earlier ICANN board member to get access to documents that ICANN
> > > rejected to reveal to him.
> >
> > I am that board member.
> >
> > Have you ever tried to chop eucalyptus logs with an ax?  The wood is so
> rubbery that
> > the blade just bounces off, leaving only a small notch: a lot of effort
> for little
> > progress.
> >
> > ICANN is like a eucalyptus log.  If you want to affect it don't bring an
> ax; bring a
> > chain saw.
> >
> > ICANN did not change much after my law suite prevailed.  In fact in some
> ways they
> > changed their procedures to become even more secretive.  For instance
> their law firm
> > changed their billing procedures so that rather than enumerating the
> specific items of
> > work and charges for that work the monthly statements became a one-line
> statement of
> > the total amount of money due for the month's work.  This was done, I
> believe, to
> > prevent any future board member from evaluating the nature and quality
> of ICANN's
> > massive outflows of money to the law firm that created ICANN.
> >
> > Attacks on me made by ICANN in their legal filings were, to my mind,
> personal,
> > gratuitous, unprofessional, and, of course, unfounded.  A decade has
> passed and I
> > can't remember whether we moved to exclude those on the grounds that
> ICANN's
> > "evidence" was not relevant to the case at hand or whether we left it in
> as
> > demonstrative of ICANN's way of reacting to those it considered hostile.
> >
> > Even after the court threw out ICANN's defenses and granted me nearly
> every thing that
> > I had asked ICANN's press releases tried to characterize their utter
> defeat as if they
> > had won a great victory.
> >
> > And I am still ostracized by many former ICANN board members for taking
> (and, of
> > course, winning) that completely justified legal action.
> >
> > Many of the case materials are online:
> >
> > > https://w2.eff.org/Infrastructure/DNS_control/ICANN_IANA_IAHC/Auerbach
> > > _v_ICANN/
> >
> > What surprised me the most was the degree to which ICANN was, and I
> believe remains,
> > an entity that does not comprehend the role of its board of directors,
> both as a
> > collective body and as individual members.
> >
> > The larger consideration is that ICANN has always had an institutional
> paranoia the
> > engenders an automatic, visceral hostility to things that are not
> delivered wrapped
> > with almost sycophantic deference.
> >
> >       --karl--
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 18:02:04 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 10:02:04 +1200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:31 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:

> On 09/02/2012 01:49 PM, Fahd A. Batayneh wrote:
>     Le 02/09/12 09:27, Roland Perry a écrit :
> >
> >         What's different about the ICANN system is that a lone voice can
> >         make a complaint which will be heard.
>
> > Maybe a good example would be the court case that was filed by an
> > earlier ICANN board member to get access to documents that ICANN
> > rejected to reveal to him.
>
> I am that board member.
>
> Karl, which seat number was it that you occupied at the time?
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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 19:38:56 2012
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 19:38:56 -0400
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <50446C1E.7090402@gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <20120902181555.16F4E21AB6@inbound-queue-3.mail.thdo.gradwell.net>
 <VH5MTjiMDGRQFAB$@internetpolicyagency.com> <50446C1E.7090402@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACAaNxi0nuTdiSMi1km=AhfsmarZSq7uuXJ5A8So_O4uB7wmdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 4:36 AM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:
> Many NGOs etc participate in settings where they feel compromised (eg WTO,
> WHO, etc). The problem is not participation per se (although a strong case
> can also be made for this), but the relationship from reform to more
> equitable solutions on the radical spectrum.
>
> In other words, what is the middle path... exhortations that intimate that
> participation is the way to go develop this are correct. But from what we
> see in both tenor and substance, this does not seem to be intended as an
> equitable process (on process applying same standards/norms irrespective of
> who is saying it - equitable treatment). Unless there is some modicum of
> openness the quest can be seen as an occupation/colonisation of legitimacy.
> That said, there is always the paradox of participation...
>
> As indicated in other threads, what is the trajectory beyond status quoism?


There is no such position as status quo-ism.  There has been
tremendous evolution in the Internet ecosystem over the last decade,
and all signs are that this will continue.


-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel

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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 19:41:59 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 11:41:59 +1200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CACAaNxi0nuTdiSMi1km=AhfsmarZSq7uuXJ5A8So_O4uB7wmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<20120902181555.16F4E21AB6@inbound-queue-3.mail.thdo.gradwell.net>
	<VH5MTjiMDGRQFAB$@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<50446C1E.7090402@gmail.com>
	<CACAaNxi0nuTdiSMi1km=AhfsmarZSq7uuXJ5A8So_O4uB7wmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiD7izzkgQNsuoo=wqj5GDW=D25iHBoaNy3eag_9QZAQBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:38 AM, McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 4:36 AM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Many NGOs etc participate in settings where they feel compromised (eg
> WTO,
> > WHO, etc). The problem is not participation per se (although a strong
> case
> > can also be made for this), but the relationship from reform to more
> > equitable solutions on the radical spectrum.
> >
> > In other words, what is the middle path... exhortations that intimate
> that
> > participation is the way to go develop this are correct. But from what we
> > see in both tenor and substance, this does not seem to be intended as an
> > equitable process (on process applying same standards/norms irrespective
> of
> > who is saying it - equitable treatment). Unless there is some modicum of
> > openness the quest can be seen as an occupation/colonisation of
> legitimacy.
> > That said, there is always the paradox of participation...
> >
> > As indicated in other threads, what is the trajectory beyond status
> quoism?
>
>
> There is no such position as status quo-ism.  There has been
> tremendous evolution in the Internet ecosystem over the last decade,
> and all signs are that this will continue.
>
> I agree with McTim, there are only divergent and convergent interests...;)
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
> route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From karl at cavebear.com  Mon Sep  3 21:39:50 2012
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 18:39:50 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com> <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com> <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>

On 09/03/2012 03:02 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:

>     I am that board member.
> 
> Karl, which seat number was it that you occupied at the time? 

I don't remember having a number.

I was the first (and only) publicly elected board member for the
so-called "North American" area.  (I use quote marks because I thought
it odd that ICANN's "North America" included Greenland but not Mexico.)

There were five of these publicly elected seats, one for each of ICANN's
geographic regions.  ICANN erased all of these seats so that there would
never again be a public election.

For the most part I thought that the five publicly elected directors
were quite good - and in the North American election I felt that every
candidate, except perhaps one, was extremely well qualified.  Because we
all had to endure at least some degree of public selection the election
process brought to the fore people who tended to be more opinionated
than people who came to their board seats by a "nominating committee"
process in which the criteria is sometimes that of choosing the least
objectionable, most mainstream, rather than those who might give
discomfort or ask too many questions.  There were complaints about the
election process in that in some areas there was a lot of nationalistic
and corporate activity; but that is to be expected when there are
democratic processes - the winner often tends to be he/she who is the
best organized.  (For online elections in these days of social media the
value of corporate money and organization does not seem as strong an
advantage as it is in more political governmental elections; I hope that
this isn't just a transitory or illusory situation.)

Here in the US there were seven of us running for the seat.  Some you
may have heard of - such as Larry Lessig.  All were very good and we had
a very vibrant election process including face-to-face debates (at
Harvard and Stanford universities and several open online debates.)  My
campaign platform is still online at:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm

Many aspects of that platform remain important, but I'd like to draw
your attention to one that is close to my heart:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm#full-members

I regret one aspect of that platform - I misjudged Louis Touton and did
not give him the credit he deserved.

I also felt that it was important to give to the public the reasons for
what I did when I was on the board, so I kept an on-line diary of my
decisions.  (In order not to step on the toes of others I tried to
record my points of view and not to reflect too much about what other
board members were thinking - I figured that that was their obligation
to perform, or not.)  I received a whole lot of subtle flak from ICANN
for publishing that diary, although it now seems that what I did back
then that was found so objectionable has been adopted to a degree in
ICANN's inclusion of a rationale section in its board meeting minutes.

That diary is still online at:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/diary/index.htm

One of the reasons that I maintained that public diary was that I was
(and am) quite aware of the tremendous risks of personal liability that
hang over every director of a non-profit corporation.  Some of these
liabilities seem to be such that they can not be protected against by
any kind of insurance policy.  So, in addition to it simply being "the
right thing to do" I created and maintained that diary so that I, should
the occasion arise, have means to demonstrate that my acts were
legitimately within the "business judgment rule" that protects corporate
directors.

	--karl--


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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 21:47:59 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 13:47:59 +1200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiBwhaMnKUQ+VP4F0rFVexqv28zuC6ptQSYKPFnGVT-Y+g@mail.gmail.com>

This is very interesting, thanks Karl.

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:

> On 09/03/2012 03:02 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
>
> >     I am that board member.
> >
> > Karl, which seat number was it that you occupied at the time?
>
> I don't remember having a number.
>
> I was the first (and only) publicly elected board member for the
> so-called "North American" area.  (I use quote marks because I thought
> it odd that ICANN's "North America" included Greenland but not Mexico.)
>
> There were five of these publicly elected seats, one for each of ICANN's
> geographic regions.  ICANN erased all of these seats so that there would
> never again be a public election.
>
> For the most part I thought that the five publicly elected directors
> were quite good - and in the North American election I felt that every
> candidate, except perhaps one, was extremely well qualified.  Because we
> all had to endure at least some degree of public selection the election
> process brought to the fore people who tended to be more opinionated
> than people who came to their board seats by a "nominating committee"
> process in which the criteria is sometimes that of choosing the least
> objectionable, most mainstream, rather than those who might give
> discomfort or ask too many questions.  There were complaints about the
> election process in that in some areas there was a lot of nationalistic
> and corporate activity; but that is to be expected when there are
> democratic processes - the winner often tends to be he/she who is the
> best organized.  (For online elections in these days of social media the
> value of corporate money and organization does not seem as strong an
> advantage as it is in more political governmental elections; I hope that
> this isn't just a transitory or illusory situation.)
>
> Here in the US there were seven of us running for the seat.  Some you
> may have heard of - such as Larry Lessig.  All were very good and we had
> a very vibrant election process including face-to-face debates (at
> Harvard and Stanford universities and several open online debates.)  My
> campaign platform is still online at:
>
> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm
>
> Many aspects of that platform remain important, but I'd like to draw
> your attention to one that is close to my heart:
>
> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm#full-members
>
> I regret one aspect of that platform - I misjudged Louis Touton and did
> not give him the credit he deserved.
>
> I also felt that it was important to give to the public the reasons for
> what I did when I was on the board, so I kept an on-line diary of my
> decisions.  (In order not to step on the toes of others I tried to
> record my points of view and not to reflect too much about what other
> board members were thinking - I figured that that was their obligation
> to perform, or not.)  I received a whole lot of subtle flak from ICANN
> for publishing that diary, although it now seems that what I did back
> then that was found so objectionable has been adopted to a degree in
> ICANN's inclusion of a rationale section in its board meeting minutes.
>
> That diary is still online at:
>
> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/diary/index.htm
>
> One of the reasons that I maintained that public diary was that I was
> (and am) quite aware of the tremendous risks of personal liability that
> hang over every director of a non-profit corporation.  Some of these
> liabilities seem to be such that they can not be protected against by
> any kind of insurance policy.  So, in addition to it simply being "the
> right thing to do" I created and maintained that diary so that I, should
> the occasion arise, have means to demonstrate that my acts were
> legitimately within the "business judgment rule" that protects corporate
> directors.
>
>         --karl--
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 22:19:46 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 07:49:46 +0530
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>

O_O

No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?

There's QUITE some detail in your diary Karl. I understand how this gives
the public information - but how does this become insurance? Could you
elaborate please?

-C

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:

> On 09/03/2012 03:02 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
>
> >     I am that board member.
> >
> > Karl, which seat number was it that you occupied at the time?
>
> I don't remember having a number.
>
> I was the first (and only) publicly elected board member for the
> so-called "North American" area.  (I use quote marks because I thought
> it odd that ICANN's "North America" included Greenland but not Mexico.)
>
> There were five of these publicly elected seats, one for each of ICANN's
> geographic regions.  ICANN erased all of these seats so that there would
> never again be a public election.
>
> For the most part I thought that the five publicly elected directors
> were quite good - and in the North American election I felt that every
> candidate, except perhaps one, was extremely well qualified.  Because we
> all had to endure at least some degree of public selection the election
> process brought to the fore people who tended to be more opinionated
> than people who came to their board seats by a "nominating committee"
> process in which the criteria is sometimes that of choosing the least
> objectionable, most mainstream, rather than those who might give
> discomfort or ask too many questions.  There were complaints about the
> election process in that in some areas there was a lot of nationalistic
> and corporate activity; but that is to be expected when there are
> democratic processes - the winner often tends to be he/she who is the
> best organized.  (For online elections in these days of social media the
> value of corporate money and organization does not seem as strong an
> advantage as it is in more political governmental elections; I hope that
> this isn't just a transitory or illusory situation.)
>
> Here in the US there were seven of us running for the seat.  Some you
> may have heard of - such as Larry Lessig.  All were very good and we had
> a very vibrant election process including face-to-face debates (at
> Harvard and Stanford universities and several open online debates.)  My
> campaign platform is still online at:
>
> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm
>
> Many aspects of that platform remain important, but I'd like to draw
> your attention to one that is close to my heart:
>
> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm#full-members
>
> I regret one aspect of that platform - I misjudged Louis Touton and did
> not give him the credit he deserved.
>
> I also felt that it was important to give to the public the reasons for
> what I did when I was on the board, so I kept an on-line diary of my
> decisions.  (In order not to step on the toes of others I tried to
> record my points of view and not to reflect too much about what other
> board members were thinking - I figured that that was their obligation
> to perform, or not.)  I received a whole lot of subtle flak from ICANN
> for publishing that diary, although it now seems that what I did back
> then that was found so objectionable has been adopted to a degree in
> ICANN's inclusion of a rationale section in its board meeting minutes.
>
> That diary is still online at:
>
> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/diary/index.htm
>
> One of the reasons that I maintained that public diary was that I was
> (and am) quite aware of the tremendous risks of personal liability that
> hang over every director of a non-profit corporation.  Some of these
> liabilities seem to be such that they can not be protected against by
> any kind of insurance policy.  So, in addition to it simply being "the
> right thing to do" I created and maintained that diary so that I, should
> the occasion arise, have means to demonstrate that my acts were
> legitimately within the "business judgment rule" that protects corporate
> directors.
>
>         --karl--
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 22:53:29 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 14:53:29 +1200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiCx9iu+RqwsCbGAamXfH6UJ_m2JGQ3nYivZrQySGMxFUw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar
<chaitanyabd at gmail.com>wrote:

> O_O
>
> No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?
>
ICANN has evolved since. The Board has seats where Seats Number 1 -8 are
voting members appointed by the NomCom. Seats 9-10 are voting members
supported by the Address Supporting Organisation, Seats 11-12 are voting
members supported by the ccNSO, Seats 13-14 are voting members supported by
the gNSO and Seat 15 is the voting member supported by the ALAC. The ICANN
President is also an ex officio member of the Board.

To answer your question it would be the holder of Seat 15.

>
>
> --
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 00:07:58 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 09:37:58 +0530
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiCx9iu+RqwsCbGAamXfH6UJ_m2JGQ3nYivZrQySGMxFUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiCx9iu+RqwsCbGAamXfH6UJ_m2JGQ3nYivZrQySGMxFUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKRyy0GvgEfoeWni2ny_qOJrqfimgLsW2W68JSy+ARTrEg@mail.gmail.com>

So that's Sebastian Bachollet currently right? (Ref:
http://www.icann.org/en/groups/board)

-C

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 8:23 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar <
> chaitanyabd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> O_O
>>
>> No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?
>>
> ICANN has evolved since. The Board has seats where Seats Number 1 -8 are
> voting members appointed by the NomCom. Seats 9-10 are voting members
> supported by the Address Supporting Organisation, Seats 11-12 are voting
> members supported by the ccNSO, Seats 13-14 are voting members supported by
> the gNSO and Seat 15 is the voting member supported by the ALAC. The ICANN
> President is also an ex officio member of the Board.
>
> To answer your question it would be the holder of Seat 15.
>
>>
>>
>> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 00:17:15 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 16:17:15 +1200
Subject: [governance] Google Lifts The Veil On Copyright Takedowns:
 Reveals Detailed Data On Who Requests Link Removals
In-Reply-To: <4FC16395.5070302@gmail.com>
References: <4FC16395.5070302@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiC468ThqByQO6b7KRAR-FUBkP1SCXj8_qShoLLzfiB0Zg@mail.gmail.com>

This is very interesting.

On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Nice one from Google...
>
>
> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120523/17520119054/google-lifts-veil-copyright-takedowns-reveals-detailed-data-who-requests-link-removals.shtml
> Google Lifts The Veil On Copyright Takedowns: Reveals Detailed Data On Who
> Requests Link Removals from the *data-data-data* dept
>
> As part of Google's ongoing Transparency Report<http://google.com/transparencyreport>efforts, today the company has released a whole new section on copyright
> takedowns <http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/removals/copyright>,
> containing a huge amount of information on the many takedown requests
> Google receives<http://googleblog.blogspot.ca/2012/05/transparency-for-copyright-removals-in.html>.
> It focuses specifically on the takedowns for *search* links, but I
> wouldn't be surprised to see them add other areas later. As you may recall,
> we were among those who were victimized<http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120223/15102217856/key-techdirt-sopapipa-post-censored-bogus-dmca-takedown-notice.shtml>by a bogus takedown, and a key post about SOPA that we had written was
> missing from Google search for about a month.
>
> The new transparency platform lets you dig in and see quite a few details
> about exactly *who* is issuing takedowns and what they're removing from
> search. It's using data since last July (when Google set up an organized
> web-form, so the data is consistent). It may be a bit surprising, but at
> the top of the list? *Microsoft*, who has apparently taken down over *2.5
> million URLs* from Google's search results. Most of the the others in the
> top 10 aren't too surprising. There's NBC Universal at number two. The RIAA
> at number three (representing all its member companies). BPI at number
> five. Universal Music at number seven. Sony Music at number eight. Warner
> Music doesn't clock in until number 12.
>  <http://imgur.com/ca8BN> There's also data on which sites are most
> frequently *targeted*, which (not surprisingly) lists out a bunch of
> torrent search sites and file lockers and such. Don't be surprised to see
> some try to claim that this is an accurate list of "rogue sites" that
> Google should block entirely. However, if you look carefully at the data,
> Google also highlights the *percentage* of pages on those sites for which
> they've received takedowns, and the vast majority of them are well below
> 1%. In other words, no one has complained about well over 99% of the pages
> on these sites. It seems pretty drastic to suggest that these sites are
> obviously nothing but evil, when so many of their pages don't seem to
> receive any complaints at all.  <http://imgur.com/fGWWb> Perhaps more
> important, however, is that Google is also revealing the incredible *
> deluge* of takedown requests it receives in search, each of which it
> tries to check to make sure they're legitimate. As it stands now, Google is
> processing *over 250,000 such requests per week* -- which is more than
> they got *in the entire year* of 2009. For all of 2011, Google receive
> 3.3 million copyright takedowns for search... and here we are in just May
> of 2012, and they're already processing over 1.2 million *per month*. And
> while we've heard reports from the usual Google haters that Google is slow
> to respond to takedowns, it says that its average turnaround time last week
> was 11 hours. Think about that for a second. It's reviewing each one of
> these takedowns, getting 250,000 per week... and can still process them in
> less than 12 hours. That's pretty impressive.
>
> It's also interesting to hear that these reviews catch some pretty
> flagrant bogus takedown requests:
>
> * At the same time, we try to catch erroneous or abusive removal
> requests. For example, we recently rejected two requests from an
> organization representing a major entertainment company, asking us to
> remove a search result that linked to a major newspaper’s review of a TV
> show. The requests mistakenly claimed copyright violations of the show,
> even though there was no infringing content. We’ve also seen baseless
> copyright removal requests being used for anticompetitive purposes, or to
> remove content unfavorable to a particular person or company from our
> search results. *
>
> It's good to see Google catch these, as plenty of other sites would
> automatically take such content down, just to avoid any question of
> liability. Of course, it doesn't catch them all. Some get through -- as we
> ourselves discovered a few months ago. That led us to wonder if this tool
> could drill down and find the details about takedowns targeting Techdirt, but
> unfortunately at the moment there doesn't seem to be any way to actually *
> search* the list. Hopefully that will change soon. *Update:* The search
> function is not currently advertised anywhere, but you can access it by
> using a URL: *
> http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/removals/copyright/domains/
> yourdomain.com/* <http://imgur.com/TdAvX> Of course, this is also a good
> reminder -- as they note in the Google blog post -- that if you run a
> website, you should absolutely sign up to use Google's Webmaster tools<http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools>,
> which will quickly inform you when one of your URLs are targeted by such a
> takedown, allowing you to easily file a counternotice.
>
> Either way, this is really fascinating data and an interesting platform,
> shedding some significant light on just how often copyright holders are
> trying to take links out of Google, who's doing it and who they're
> targeting.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
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>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
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>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
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> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From apisan at unam.mx  Tue Sep  4 01:22:08 2012
From: apisan at unam.mx (Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 05:22:08 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiCx9iu+RqwsCbGAamXfH6UJ_m2JGQ3nYivZrQySGMxFUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>,<CAJwbTiCx9iu+RqwsCbGAamXfH6UJ_m2JGQ3nYivZrQySGMxFUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAADB@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>

Sala,

that is really a stretch of the imagination.

Alejandro Pisanty


! !! !!! !!!!
NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO



+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD

+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO

SMS +525541444475
     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico

Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

________________________________
Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro [salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com]
Enviado el: lunes, 03 de septiembre de 2012 21:53
Hasta: Chaitanya Dhareshwar
CC: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Karl Auerbach
Asunto: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest



On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar <chaitanyabd at gmail.com<mailto:chaitanyabd at gmail.com>> wrote:
O_O

No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?
ICANN has evolved since. The Board has seats where Seats Number 1 -8 are voting members appointed by the NomCom. Seats 9-10 are voting members supported by the Address Supporting Organisation, Seats 11-12 are voting members supported by the ccNSO, Seats 13-14 are voting members supported by the gNSO and Seat 15 is the voting member supported by the ALAC. The ICANN President is also an ex officio member of the Board.

To answer your question it would be the holder of Seat 15.


--
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851




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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 01:27:11 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 17:27:11 +1200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAADB@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiCx9iu+RqwsCbGAamXfH6UJ_m2JGQ3nYivZrQySGMxFUw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAADB@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiBw7dHQ9Y=qpLPS1rz0DrtA6sX2d6YcAtfaqOEgLaCBWQ@mail.gmail.com>

Alejandro, you are absolutely correct. Directors of all Boards have a duty
to the entity which they hold "Directorship" over, irrespective of their
interests. It follows that they are all accountable to the organisation
that they hold Directorship and to administer in good faith as per the
organising Articles to the best of their ability. Their voices combined are
the "voice of reason".

However, when I made reference to Seat 15, I meant to say that it was the
one appointment from the At Large community that advocates At Large
concerns at the Board level.

Sala

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch <apisan at unam.mx
> wrote:

>  Sala,
>
>  that is really a stretch of the imagination.
>
>  Alejandro Pisanty
>
>
> ! !! !!! !!!!
> NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO
>
>
>
> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
>
> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO
>
> SMS +525541444475
>      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>
> Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>   ------------------------------
> *Desde:* governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [
> governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de Salanieta T.
> Tamanikaiwaimaro [salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com]
> *Enviado el:* lunes, 03 de septiembre de 2012 21:53
> *Hasta:* Chaitanya Dhareshwar
> *CC:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Karl Auerbach
> *Asunto:* Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar <
> chaitanyabd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> O_O
>>
>> No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?
>>
> ICANN has evolved since. The Board has seats where Seats Number 1 -8 are
> voting members appointed by the NomCom. Seats 9-10 are voting members
> supported by the Address Supporting Organisation, Seats 11-12 are voting
> members supported by the ccNSO, Seats 13-14 are voting members supported by
> the gNSO and Seat 15 is the voting member supported by the ALAC. The ICANN
> President is also an ex officio member of the Board.
>
>  To answer your question it would be the holder of Seat 15.
>
>>
>>
>>   --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
>  Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From apisan at unam.mx  Tue Sep  4 01:40:45 2012
From: apisan at unam.mx (Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 05:40:45 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>,<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>

Chaitanya, all,

1. the At-Large election procedure was deprecated because of its serious flaws, which Karl unfortunately fails to mention. They break the most basic principles of democratic election theory.

Elections are meant to split a given electorate among options (propositions, parties, or individual candidates.) The At Large election fails to do that. Instead, a candidate like Karl can bring in more voters than, say, the former President of the University of Maryland - not more votes: more voters - and the election result therefore is prescribed.

This is like when in older Mexico or in India a party can ferry voters in trucks.

Similarly, in the At-Large election Karl so unfairly romanticizes, arguments like "it is time Germany gets its deserved place in governing the Internet" were used by German-speaking media (not only in Germany but also in Austria) and there you are, the European space is taken.

The same thing happened in Latin America. In every country there were 100-300 people interested in ICANN who took part in the election. "It is time Brazil gets its deserved place in governing the Internet" was argued by some entities in Brazil, including the ccTLD manager CGI Brazil (Internet Steering Committee), and action was directed even to non-Brazilians. There you get 2000 votes from Brazil.

In most cases not a word was heard again from any of the voters so we can be sure that the results were at best a flare-up.

We substituted this supposedly ideal mechanism by a more complicated one but which ensures at least some level of trust in who is participating and some accountability and transparency. It hurts when you ask for accountability and transparency from individuals or organizations which are used to asking for it but not for providing it.

We continue to struggle to build the At-Large organizational space but are light-years better than with the old "bring your electorate" (not win over your fraction of the electorate) method. Add to that the NomCom, which usually can look much further out, and the At-Large influence in the NomCom. Count also the enormous contributions to deliver the At-Large views made by Roberto Gaetano and Vittorio Bertola.

2. Karl's lawsuit's victory in court had no more result for Karl than a victory in court. He never found enough skeletons in the closets to avenge the fact that the ICANN proponents defeated the Boston Working Group in the bid for "Newco" as the concept-ICANN was known till the organization was formed. I have a long-standing (albeit at times contentious) friendship with Karl, I like a lot of what he does,have learned a lot from him, appreciate his many interests beyond technology and politics (we had a delightful run over the National Gallery in DC once, for example, and ask him about rebuilding old locomotives), and have always been sad that he wasted the opportunity to teach more and contribute more as a good engineer for trying to outlawyer the lawyers. I still expect to see that Karl Auerbach's contributions make a difference.

3. There is something called esprit de corps and/or duty of loyalty to the organization. It is not in conflict with the duty of independence. There is a slight generralization that some non-USians tend to decide for a balance in favor of performing on both instead of privileging individual independence. Your mileage may vary.

Maybe it was time for some in this group to find out that some histories are not as one-sided and clear cut as they may seem. Apologies if I bored you (Sala, Fahd, Riaz, Chaitanya, especially.)

Yours,

Alejandro Pisanty

! !! !!! !!!!
NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO



+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD

+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO

SMS +525541444475
     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico

Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

________________________________
Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de Chaitanya Dhareshwar [chaitanyabd at gmail.com]
Enviado el: lunes, 03 de septiembre de 2012 21:19
Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Karl Auerbach
CC: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
Asunto: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

O_O

No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?

There's QUITE some detail in your diary Karl. I understand how this gives the public information - but how does this become insurance? Could you elaborate please?

-C

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com<mailto:karl at cavebear.com>> wrote:
On 09/03/2012 03:02 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:

>     I am that board member.
>
> Karl, which seat number was it that you occupied at the time?

I don't remember having a number.

I was the first (and only) publicly elected board member for the
so-called "North American" area.  (I use quote marks because I thought
it odd that ICANN's "North America" included Greenland but not Mexico.)

There were five of these publicly elected seats, one for each of ICANN's
geographic regions.  ICANN erased all of these seats so that there would
never again be a public election.

For the most part I thought that the five publicly elected directors
were quite good - and in the North American election I felt that every
candidate, except perhaps one, was extremely well qualified.  Because we
all had to endure at least some degree of public selection the election
process brought to the fore people who tended to be more opinionated
than people who came to their board seats by a "nominating committee"
process in which the criteria is sometimes that of choosing the least
objectionable, most mainstream, rather than those who might give
discomfort or ask too many questions.  There were complaints about the
election process in that in some areas there was a lot of nationalistic
and corporate activity; but that is to be expected when there are
democratic processes - the winner often tends to be he/she who is the
best organized.  (For online elections in these days of social media the
value of corporate money and organization does not seem as strong an
advantage as it is in more political governmental elections; I hope that
this isn't just a transitory or illusory situation.)

Here in the US there were seven of us running for the seat.  Some you
may have heard of - such as Larry Lessig.  All were very good and we had
a very vibrant election process including face-to-face debates (at
Harvard and Stanford universities and several open online debates.)  My
campaign platform is still online at:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm

Many aspects of that platform remain important, but I'd like to draw
your attention to one that is close to my heart:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm#full-members

I regret one aspect of that platform - I misjudged Louis Touton and did
not give him the credit he deserved.

I also felt that it was important to give to the public the reasons for
what I did when I was on the board, so I kept an on-line diary of my
decisions.  (In order not to step on the toes of others I tried to
record my points of view and not to reflect too much about what other
board members were thinking - I figured that that was their obligation
to perform, or not.)  I received a whole lot of subtle flak from ICANN
for publishing that diary, although it now seems that what I did back
then that was found so objectionable has been adopted to a degree in
ICANN's inclusion of a rationale section in its board meeting minutes.

That diary is still online at:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/diary/index.htm

One of the reasons that I maintained that public diary was that I was
(and am) quite aware of the tremendous risks of personal liability that
hang over every director of a non-profit corporation.  Some of these
liabilities seem to be such that they can not be protected against by
any kind of insurance policy.  So, in addition to it simply being "the
right thing to do" I created and maintained that diary so that I, should
the occasion arise, have means to demonstrate that my acts were
legitimately within the "business judgment rule" that protects corporate
directors.

        --karl--



____________________________________________________________
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 01:55:22 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 07:55:22 +0200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
 <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com> <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com> <CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxqug5vXkcMdjKzCLvauipzyGrZ1JkOJ7tto6puR0H0Ybw@mail.gmail.com>

>
>  (snip)
>
> Apologies if I bored you (Sala, Fahd, Riaz, Chaitanya, especially.
>

Not at all Alejandro, interesting points made there.

Fahd
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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 01:56:32 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 11:26:32 +0530
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKTnkObe97RnNy_zVK7jYoq3c+eoiKWFF--Q4k=xUfUFWw@mail.gmail.com>

It wasnt boring at all Alex - thanks - yes it is indeed surprising to see
there are many angles to the same issue.

-Chaitanya

PS: I was actually reading through Jovan Kurbalija's excellent
"Introduction to IG" - and I feel it's a reminder of how different people
perceive IG differently. More so the people that publicize it (but dont
know what it is - I'll say 'media' in general here).

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch <
apisan at unam.mx> wrote:

>  Chaitanya, all,
>
>  1. the At-Large election procedure was deprecated because of its serious
> flaws, which Karl unfortunately fails to mention. They break the most basic
> principles of democratic election theory.
>
>  Elections are meant to split a given electorate among options
> (propositions, parties, or individual candidates.) The At Large election
> fails to do that. Instead, a candidate like Karl can bring in more voters
> than, say, the former President of the University of Maryland - not more
> votes: more voters - and the election result therefore is prescribed.
>
>  This is like when in older Mexico or in India a party can ferry voters
> in trucks.
>
>  Similarly, in the At-Large election Karl so unfairly romanticizes,
> arguments like "it is time Germany gets its deserved place in governing the
> Internet" were used by German-speaking media (not only in Germany but also
> in Austria) and there you are, the European space is taken.
>
>  The same thing happened in Latin America. In every country there were
> 100-300 people interested in ICANN who took part in the election. "It is
> time Brazil gets its deserved place in governing the Internet" was argued
> by some entities in Brazil, including the ccTLD manager CGI Brazil
> (Internet Steering Committee), and action was directed even to
> non-Brazilians. There you get 2000 votes from Brazil.
>
>  In most cases not a word was heard again from any of the voters so we
> can be sure that the results were at best a flare-up.
>
>  We substituted this supposedly ideal mechanism by a more complicated one
> but which ensures at least some level of trust in who is participating and
> some accountability and transparency. It hurts when you ask for
> accountability and transparency from individuals or organizations which are
> used to asking for it but not for providing it.
>
>  We continue to struggle to build the At-Large organizational space but
> are light-years better than with the old "bring your electorate" (not win
> over your fraction of the electorate) method. Add to that the NomCom, which
> usually can look much further out, and the At-Large influence in the
> NomCom. Count also the enormous contributions to deliver the At-Large views
> made by Roberto Gaetano and Vittorio Bertola.
>
>  2. Karl's lawsuit's victory in court had no more result for Karl than a
> victory in court. He never found enough skeletons in the closets to avenge
> the fact that the ICANN proponents defeated the Boston Working Group in the
> bid for "Newco" as the concept-ICANN was known till the organization was
> formed. I have a long-standing (albeit at times contentious) friendship
> with Karl, I like a lot of what he does,have learned a lot from him,
> appreciate his many interests beyond technology and politics (we had a
> delightful run over the National Gallery in DC once, for example, and ask
> him about rebuilding old locomotives), and have always been sad that he
> wasted the opportunity to teach more and contribute more as a good engineer
> for trying to outlawyer the lawyers. I still expect to see that Karl
> Auerbach's contributions make a difference.
>
>  3. There is something called esprit de corps and/or duty of loyalty to
> the organization. It is not in conflict with the duty of independence.
> There is a slight generralization that some non-USians tend to decide for a
> balance in favor of performing on both instead of privileging individual
> independence. Your mileage may vary.
>
>  Maybe it was time for some in this group to find out that some histories
> are not as one-sided and clear cut as they may seem. Apologies if I bored
> you (Sala, Fahd, Riaz, Chaitanya, especially.)
>
>  Yours,
>
>  Alejandro Pisanty
>
> ! !! !!! !!!!
> NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO
>
>
>
> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
>
> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO
>
> SMS +525541444475
>      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>
> Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>   ------------------------------
> *Desde:* governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [
> governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de Chaitanya Dhareshwar [
> chaitanyabd at gmail.com]
> *Enviado el:* lunes, 03 de septiembre de 2012 21:19
> *Hasta:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Karl Auerbach
> *CC:* Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
>
> *Asunto:* Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
>
>   O_O
>
> No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?
>
> There's QUITE some detail in your diary Karl. I understand how this gives
> the public information - but how does this become insurance? Could you
> elaborate please?
>
> -C
>
>  On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:
>
>> On 09/03/2012 03:02 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
>>
>> >     I am that board member.
>> >
>> > Karl, which seat number was it that you occupied at the time?
>>
>>  I don't remember having a number.
>>
>> I was the first (and only) publicly elected board member for the
>> so-called "North American" area.  (I use quote marks because I thought
>> it odd that ICANN's "North America" included Greenland but not Mexico.)
>>
>> There were five of these publicly elected seats, one for each of ICANN's
>> geographic regions.  ICANN erased all of these seats so that there would
>> never again be a public election.
>>
>> For the most part I thought that the five publicly elected directors
>> were quite good - and in the North American election I felt that every
>> candidate, except perhaps one, was extremely well qualified.  Because we
>> all had to endure at least some degree of public selection the election
>> process brought to the fore people who tended to be more opinionated
>> than people who came to their board seats by a "nominating committee"
>> process in which the criteria is sometimes that of choosing the least
>> objectionable, most mainstream, rather than those who might give
>> discomfort or ask too many questions.  There were complaints about the
>> election process in that in some areas there was a lot of nationalistic
>> and corporate activity; but that is to be expected when there are
>> democratic processes - the winner often tends to be he/she who is the
>> best organized.  (For online elections in these days of social media the
>> value of corporate money and organization does not seem as strong an
>> advantage as it is in more political governmental elections; I hope that
>> this isn't just a transitory or illusory situation.)
>>
>> Here in the US there were seven of us running for the seat.  Some you
>> may have heard of - such as Larry Lessig.  All were very good and we had
>> a very vibrant election process including face-to-face debates (at
>> Harvard and Stanford universities and several open online debates.)  My
>> campaign platform is still online at:
>>
>> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm
>>
>> Many aspects of that platform remain important, but I'd like to draw
>> your attention to one that is close to my heart:
>>
>> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm#full-members
>>
>> I regret one aspect of that platform - I misjudged Louis Touton and did
>> not give him the credit he deserved.
>>
>> I also felt that it was important to give to the public the reasons for
>> what I did when I was on the board, so I kept an on-line diary of my
>> decisions.  (In order not to step on the toes of others I tried to
>> record my points of view and not to reflect too much about what other
>> board members were thinking - I figured that that was their obligation
>> to perform, or not.)  I received a whole lot of subtle flak from ICANN
>> for publishing that diary, although it now seems that what I did back
>> then that was found so objectionable has been adopted to a degree in
>> ICANN's inclusion of a rationale section in its board meeting minutes.
>>
>> That diary is still online at:
>>
>> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/diary/index.htm
>>
>> One of the reasons that I maintained that public diary was that I was
>> (and am) quite aware of the tremendous risks of personal liability that
>> hang over every director of a non-profit corporation.  Some of these
>> liabilities seem to be such that they can not be protected against by
>> any kind of insurance policy.  So, in addition to it simply being "the
>> right thing to do" I created and maintained that diary so that I, should
>> the occasion arise, have means to demonstrate that my acts were
>> legitimately within the "business judgment rule" that protects corporate
>> directors.
>>
>>         --karl--
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 02:16:50 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 18:16:50 +1200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxqug5vXkcMdjKzCLvauipzyGrZ1JkOJ7tto6puR0H0Ybw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
	<CABBOhxqug5vXkcMdjKzCLvauipzyGrZ1JkOJ7tto6puR0H0Ybw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiBW7K4i4Aan+wOGoNrjAsdDZDM0X50qQg4AYSpUPa0-Ww@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>wrote:

>  (snip)
>>
>> Apologies if I bored you (Sala, Fahd, Riaz, Chaitanya, especially.
>>
>
> Not at all Alejandro, interesting points made there.
>

Interesting indeed.






>
> Fahd
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From ajp at glocom.ac.jp  Tue Sep  4 02:39:42 2012
From: ajp at glocom.ac.jp (Adam Peake)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 15:39:42 +0900
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiBW7K4i4Aan+wOGoNrjAsdDZDM0X50qQg4AYSpUPa0-Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
	<CABBOhxqug5vXkcMdjKzCLvauipzyGrZ1JkOJ7tto6puR0H0Ybw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiBW7K4i4Aan+wOGoNrjAsdDZDM0X50qQg4AYSpUPa0-Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFabd1KP_LpqHR6=hbULQCnNKP6jBD9rBEBZgbi+YQG-k6_16g@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone interested in some history of the at large election might look here:

A one page summary
<http://web.archive.org/web/20030627132419/http://www.naisproject.org/report/final/010907abstract.shtml>

and reports:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030621172016/http://www.naisproject.org/report/final/execsummaryA4.pdf

http://web.archive.org/web/20030621172016/http://www.naisproject.org/report/final/naisreportUSLetter.pdf

At the time, I thought the problems were fixable and ICANN should have
tried a second round, a lot of the problems would not have been hard
to fix.  Now I'm much less sure, I think an annual election would be a
massive distraction for the organization and volunteers who already
have too little time.  But should not be discounted.  A new study as a
new ATRT round starts might be useful.

Adam

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From jstyre at jstyre.com  Tue Sep  4 02:46:19 2012
From: jstyre at jstyre.com (James S. Tyre)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 23:46:19 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>,<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com> <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
Message-ID: <008b01cd8a68$fe131df0$fa3959d0$@jstyre.com>

See below

 

--

James S. Tyre

Law Offices of James S. Tyre

10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512

Culver City, CA 90230-4969

310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)

jstyre at jstyre.com

Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation

https://www.eff.org

 

From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org]
On Behalf Of Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 10:41 PM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Chaitanya Dhareshwar; Karl Auerbach
Cc: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
Subject: RE: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

 

Chaitanya, all, 

 

1. the At-Large election procedure was deprecated because of its serious flaws, which Karl
unfortunately fails to mention. They break the most basic principles of democratic
election theory.

 

Elections are meant to split a given electorate among options (propositions, parties, or
individual candidates.) The At Large election fails to do that. Instead, a candidate like
Karl can bring in more voters than, say, the former President of the University of
Maryland - not more votes: more voters - and the election result therefore is prescribed.

[] 

Alejandro, this makes no sense.  Please explain the difference between more votes and more
voters.  In any event, who, other than the voters, is to say whether Karl, the former
President of the University of Maryland, Larry Lessig, Barbara Simons or others was the
best candidate?

 

This is like when in older Mexico or in India a party can ferry voters in trucks. 

 

Similarly, in the At-Large election Karl so unfairly romanticizes, arguments like "it is
time Germany gets its deserved place in governing the Internet" were used by
German-speaking media (not only in Germany but also in Austria) and there you are, the
European space is taken.

[] 

Pretty much all is fair in political campaigns.  What was inherently wrong with that?  Or
are you just upset that the winner of that seat, Andy M-M, was almost as unlikely to toe
the ICANN party line as Karl?

 

The same thing happened in Latin America. In every country there were 100-300 people
interested in ICANN who took part in the election. "It is time Brazil gets its deserved
place in governing the Internet" was argued by some entities in Brazil, including the
ccTLD manager CGI Brazil (Internet Steering Committee), and action was directed even to
non-Brazilians. There you get 2000 votes from Brazil. 

 

In most cases not a word was heard again from any of the voters so we can be sure that the
results were at best a flare-up. 

[] 

In the 2008 US Presidential election, I voted for [Obama or McCain, take your pick].  I
have done nothing involving presidential politics (other than to vote in the primary this
year) since.  At best, then, according to your logic, I’m a flare-up.

 

That’s a fairly serious misapprehension of politics and voting in a democracy (or
Republic, as the case may be).

 

We substituted this supposedly ideal mechanism by a more complicated one but which ensures
at least some level of trust in who is participating and some accountability and
transparency. It hurts when you ask for accountability and transparency from individuals
or organizations which are used to asking for it but not for providing it.

[] 

ICANN had, and has, less trust in the electorate, than do virtually all elected
governments.  Good to know.

 

We continue to struggle to build the At-Large organizational space but are light-years
better than with the old "bring your electorate" (not win over your fraction of the
electorate) method. Add to that the NomCom, which usually can look much further out, and
the At-Large influence in the NomCom. Count also the enormous contributions to deliver the
At-Large views made by Roberto Gaetano and Vittorio Bertola. 

 

2. Karl's lawsuit's victory in court had no more result for Karl than a victory in court.
He never found enough skeletons in the closets to avenge the fact that the ICANN
proponents defeated the Boston Working Group in the bid for "Newco" as the concept-ICANN
was known till the organization was formed. I have a long-standing (albeit at times
contentious) friendship with Karl, I like a lot of what he does,have learned a lot from
him, appreciate his many interests beyond technology and politics (we had a delightful run
over the National Gallery in DC once, for example, and ask him about rebuilding old
locomotives), and have always been sad that he wasted the opportunity to teach more and
contribute more as a good engineer for trying to outlawyer the lawyers. I still expect to
see that Karl Auerbach's contributions make a difference.

[] 

Please give some actual evidence that Karl had any objective other than to assert the
right that ICANN unlawfully denied him, that he had to go to court to assert because ICANN
was so intransigent, and that he won.

 

3. There is something called esprit de corps and/or duty of loyalty to the organization.
It is not in conflict with the duty of independence. There is a slight generralization
that some non-USians tend to decide for a balance in favor of performing on both instead
of privileging individual independence. Your mileage may vary.

 

Maybe it was time for some in this group to find out that some histories are not as
one-sided and clear cut as they may seem. Apologies if I bored you (Sala, Fahd, Riaz,
Chaitanya, especially.)

 

Yours,

 

Alejandro Pisanty

   

! !! !!! !!!!

NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO

 

+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD 

+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO 

SMS +525541444475 
     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico

Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 

  _____  

Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en
nombre de Chaitanya Dhareshwar [chaitanyabd at gmail.com]
Enviado el: lunes, 03 de septiembre de 2012 21:19
Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Karl Auerbach
CC: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
Asunto: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

O_O

 

No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?

 

There's QUITE some detail in your diary Karl. I understand how this gives the public
information - but how does this become insurance? Could you elaborate please?

 

-C

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:

On 09/03/2012 03:02 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:

>     I am that board member.
>
> Karl, which seat number was it that you occupied at the time?

I don't remember having a number.

I was the first (and only) publicly elected board member for the
so-called "North American" area.  (I use quote marks because I thought
it odd that ICANN's "North America" included Greenland but not Mexico.)

There were five of these publicly elected seats, one for each of ICANN's
geographic regions.  ICANN erased all of these seats so that there would
never again be a public election.

For the most part I thought that the five publicly elected directors
were quite good - and in the North American election I felt that every
candidate, except perhaps one, was extremely well qualified.  Because we
all had to endure at least some degree of public selection the election
process brought to the fore people who tended to be more opinionated
than people who came to their board seats by a "nominating committee"
process in which the criteria is sometimes that of choosing the least
objectionable, most mainstream, rather than those who might give
discomfort or ask too many questions.  There were complaints about the
election process in that in some areas there was a lot of nationalistic
and corporate activity; but that is to be expected when there are
democratic processes - the winner often tends to be he/she who is the
best organized.  (For online elections in these days of social media the
value of corporate money and organization does not seem as strong an
advantage as it is in more political governmental elections; I hope that
this isn't just a transitory or illusory situation.)

Here in the US there were seven of us running for the seat.  Some you
may have heard of - such as Larry Lessig.  All were very good and we had
a very vibrant election process including face-to-face debates (at
Harvard and Stanford universities and several open online debates.)  My
campaign platform is still online at:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm

Many aspects of that platform remain important, but I'd like to draw
your attention to one that is close to my heart:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm#full-members

I regret one aspect of that platform - I misjudged Louis Touton and did
not give him the credit he deserved.

I also felt that it was important to give to the public the reasons for
what I did when I was on the board, so I kept an on-line diary of my
decisions.  (In order not to step on the toes of others I tried to
record my points of view and not to reflect too much about what other
board members were thinking - I figured that that was their obligation
to perform, or not.)  I received a whole lot of subtle flak from ICANN
for publishing that diary, although it now seems that what I did back
then that was found so objectionable has been adopted to a degree in
ICANN's inclusion of a rationale section in its board meeting minutes.

That diary is still online at:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/diary/index.htm

One of the reasons that I maintained that public diary was that I was
(and am) quite aware of the tremendous risks of personal liability that
hang over every director of a non-profit corporation.  Some of these
liabilities seem to be such that they can not be protected against by
any kind of insurance policy.  So, in addition to it simply being "the
right thing to do" I created and maintained that diary so that I, should
the occasion arise, have means to demonstrate that my acts were
legitimately within the "business judgment rule" that protects corporate
directors.

        --karl--



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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 03:23:32 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 10:23:32 +0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CACAaNxi0nuTdiSMi1km=AhfsmarZSq7uuXJ5A8So_O4uB7wmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <20120902181555.16F4E21AB6@inbound-queue-3.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <VH5MTjiMDGRQFAB$@internetpolicyagency.com> <50446C1E.7090402@gmail.com> <CACAaNxi0nuTdiSMi1km=AhfsmarZSq7uuXJ5A8So_O4uB7wmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5045AC74.3020804@gmail.com>

For present purposes _I _have defined status quo-ism as the ruling 
mantra  of the minimal accomodationists for ICANN fads.

And yes changes will continue, but that is a qualitative question - 
description is inadequate. As has been stated, ICANN is even more 
"radical" that some/many on this list.

So perspectives differ.


On 2012/09/04 02:38 AM, McTim wrote:
> There is no such position as status quo-ism.  There has been
> tremendous evolution in the Internet ecosystem over the last decade,
> and all signs are that this will continue.

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From karl at cavebear.com  Tue Sep  4 03:25:37 2012
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 00:25:37 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com> <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com> <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com> <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com> <CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5045ACF1.3050500@cavebear.com>

On 09/03/2012 07:19 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar wrote:

> No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?
>  
> There's QUITE some detail in your diary Karl. I understand how this
> gives the public information - but how does this become insurance? Could
> you elaborate please?

That is an extremely complex question and it is affected by laws that
vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.  I can only begin to touch the
surface in an email.

Let me begin by reflecting that ICANN obtains it legal existence from
the laws of the State of California under a provision pertaining to
non-profit/public-benefit corporations.  (There are many kinds of
corporations and many kinds of non-profits, so the public-benefit part
is important.)

California isn't particularly unique in its laws - it, like much of the
world, is a blend of Civil Law and Common Law concepts diluted by a lot
of modern thought and pragmatic experience.  As such one will tend to
find that what is true in California will often have counterparts in the
laws of other places.  As a result I tend to be mildly amused by those
who argue that ICANN should be moved elsewhere - my amusement comes from
my thought that "the corporations laws of all those other places are
probably more similar to those of California than they are different".

The USA is also a federal system in which power is divided between the
national level and the state level.  As such ICANN also has status under
the national tax law as a "501(c)(3)" which means that it gets an
exemption from taxation because of charitable of scientific purposes.

It is important to distinguish between those two things.

With regard to the US national, 501(c)(3) status there is a thing called
"intermediate sanctions" which occurs when a body of that status pays an
"excess benefit" to a closely related party.  Generally that means
paying above fair market value to someone who is a director, officer,
founder, or in some other way exercises a strong level of control.  That
sanction is cast as a 200% tax and insurance policies tend not to insure
against the risk of taxation.  This law was intended to be draconian.
Since those intermediate sanctions can fall directly onto the personal
assets of corporate directors there is a possibility that ICANN's
insurance for directors may not provide protection.  (The situation gets
even more complicated when directors are compensated - one can drown in
the details of this stuff.  Suffice it to say that prudence suggests
that one should try to avoid getting anywhere near entangled by this stuff.

The point about the diary is more at the level of state law.  Typical
corporate law imposes very heavy duties on corporate directors - the
word is "fiduciary duty".  It is a very, very heavy burden and contains
a large amount of risk to a director's personal assets.  It is also an
extremely complicated duty.  For example, as a California public benefit
corporation ICANN's directors are obligated to consider the impact upon
the public well being when evaluating whether a proposed action is in
the best interest of the corporation or not.  Many directors do not
understand this and consider only the best interest of the public
benefit corporation without recognizing the need to incorporate the
effect upon the public.

Because of the difficult and potentially draconian nature of fiduciary
responsibilities there is an escape valve built into most corporation
laws - which is the idea that directors are allowed some flexibility as
long as they act in certain ways.

One of those ways is that a corporate director obtains a degree of
protection if he/she can demonstrate that he is making an informed,
reasonable decision in the context of a business purpose.  The rule
allows a director to make a mistake and yet avoid liability for that
mistake - It's a rather sensible idea, otherwise no one would risk
taking on the role of a director.

So my diary was intended to demonstrate that when I was making a choice
that I had tried to become informed, that I tried to evaluate the
alternatives, and that the decision was being made in the context of the
purpose of the business.

That point about being "informed" is more tricky than one might think
... being on ICANN's board requires an enormous amount of work just to
keep up, and much more to understand, and even more to really comprehend
the competing issues.  Any person who considers the role should
recognize that it is more than a full-time job.

Becoming informed is hard - that is why when I was on the board I'd ask
many questions, often to the point of annoying those who wanted to move
ahead.

But I discovered that some disputes coming before ICANN were really not
disputes at all, but rather were people who were talking past one
another using different words.  Asking questions tends to reveal when
their are real differences or merely much more easily correct
mis-understandings.  There are plenty of real and hard issues in
internet governance, so it is nice to be able to find the easy ones by
asking some questions.

And the diary was also meant to be a two-way street - by exposing my
thought processes others could see where I had gone awry and could try
to change my point of view.

I found that very valuable - there is nothing like disagreement to cause
two people to explain themselves to one another.  ;-)

This is an area in which internet governance is weak - We Americans tend
to feel comfortable with a rough-and-tumble dialog - an argument - as a
means to illuminate and comprehend issues.  Other cultures work through
less confrontational means.

Both methods are correct, neither method is wrong.  I found, however,
that there is not enough accommodation by those who use one of these
methods for those who use the other.  As an American I found myself
often upbraided (often rather subtly) for being very direct in my
questions and words.  And as an American I often found it difficult to
comprehend how I was to learn enough about issues if I did not ask
direct questions and used, instead, indirect means.

	--karl--




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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 03:27:49 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 12:57:49 +0530
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <008b01cd8a68$fe131df0$fa3959d0$@jstyre.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
	<008b01cd8a68$fe131df0$fa3959d0$@jstyre.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKSo36nR7oaRUL9QTgKEVHRO9JFYTBXfiR3N-0oCKuM9wA@mail.gmail.com>

James,

I think what Alex wanted to illustrate is that it's easy enough to 'buy'
votes - maybe by making a commitment, or people are 'sold' because they see
the candidate's profile and are happy to have a leap of faith believing
their choice of candidate will make a difference.

The difference between voters and votes - in India at least - is usually
the number of people that get pulled in by the campaign versus the number
of people that made a researched choice to vote for a given candidate. The
flare up effect would happen because of this - say I advertise that I
intend to bring in massive projects for farmers - maybe free electricity -
the farmers are likely to vote for me; however these are the 'flares' that
may not have any real interest in me, my capability or my future in that
seat.

The last part about evidence, etc - see Alex is not saying that he didnt
deserve the win. He's just saying that the result of that didnt change much
- which is in line with what Karl said "ICANN did not change much after my
law suite prevailed."

-Chaitanya

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:16 PM, James S. Tyre <jstyre at jstyre.com> wrote:

> See below****
>
> ** **
>
> --****
>
> James S. Tyre****
>
> Law Offices of James S. Tyre****
>
> 10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512****
>
> Culver City, CA 90230-4969****
>
> 310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)****
>
> jstyre at jstyre.com****
>
> Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation****
>
> https://www.eff.org****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:
> governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] *On Behalf Of *Dr. Alejandro
> Pisanty Baruch
> *Sent:* Monday, September 03, 2012 10:41 PM
> *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Chaitanya Dhareshwar; Karl Auerbach
> *Cc:* Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
> *Subject:* RE: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest****
>
> ** **
>
> Chaitanya, all, ****
>
> ** **
>
> 1. the At-Large election procedure was deprecated because of its serious
> flaws, which Karl unfortunately fails to mention. They break the most basic
> principles of democratic election theory.****
>
> ** **
>
> Elections are meant to split a given electorate among options
> (propositions, parties, or individual candidates.) The At Large election
> fails to do that. Instead, a candidate like Karl can bring in more voters
> than, say, the former President of the University of Maryland - not more
> votes: more voters - and the election result therefore is prescribed.****
>
> [] ****
>
> Alejandro, this makes no sense.  Please explain the difference between
> more votes and more voters.  In any event, who, other than the voters, is
> to say whether Karl, the former President of the University of Maryland,
> Larry Lessig, Barbara Simons or others was the best candidate?****
>
> ** **
>
> This is like when in older Mexico or in India a party can ferry voters in
> trucks. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Similarly, in the At-Large election Karl so unfairly romanticizes,
> arguments like "it is time Germany gets its deserved place in governing the
> Internet" were used by German-speaking media (not only in Germany but also
> in Austria) and there you are, the European space is taken.****
>
> [] ****
>
> Pretty much all is fair in political campaigns.  What was inherently wrong
> with that?  Or are you just upset that the winner of that seat, Andy M-M,
> was almost as unlikely to toe the ICANN party line as Karl?****
>
> ** **
>
> The same thing happened in Latin America. In every country there were
> 100-300 people interested in ICANN who took part in the election. "It is
> time Brazil gets its deserved place in governing the Internet" was argued
> by some entities in Brazil, including the ccTLD manager CGI Brazil
> (Internet Steering Committee), and action was directed even to
> non-Brazilians. There you get 2000 votes from Brazil. ****
>
> ** **
>
> In most cases not a word was heard again from any of the voters so we can
> be sure that the results were at best a flare-up. ****
>
> [] ****
>
> In the 2008 US Presidential election, I voted for [Obama or McCain, take
> your pick].  I have done nothing involving presidential politics (other
> than to vote in the primary this year) since.  At best, then, according to
> your logic, I’m a flare-up.****
>
> ** **
>
> That’s a fairly serious misapprehension of politics and voting in a
> democracy (or Republic, as the case may be).****
>
> ** **
>
> We substituted this supposedly ideal mechanism by a more complicated one
> but which ensures at least some level of trust in who is participating and
> some accountability and transparency. It hurts when you ask for
> accountability and transparency from individuals or organizations which are
> used to asking for it but not for providing it.****
>
> [] ****
>
> ICANN had, and has, less trust in the electorate, than do virtually all
> elected governments.  Good to know.****
>
> ** **
>
> We continue to struggle to build the At-Large organizational space but are
> light-years better than with the old "bring your electorate" (not win over
> your fraction of the electorate) method. Add to that the NomCom, which
> usually can look much further out, and the At-Large influence in the
> NomCom. Count also the enormous contributions to deliver the At-Large views
> made by Roberto Gaetano and Vittorio Bertola. ****
>
> ** **
>
> 2. Karl's lawsuit's victory in court had no more result for Karl than a
> victory in court. He never found enough skeletons in the closets to avenge
> the fact that the ICANN proponents defeated the Boston Working Group in the
> bid for "Newco" as the concept-ICANN was known till the organization was
> formed. I have a long-standing (albeit at times contentious) friendship
> with Karl, I like a lot of what he does,have learned a lot from him,
> appreciate his many interests beyond technology and politics (we had a
> delightful run over the National Gallery in DC once, for example, and ask
> him about rebuilding old locomotives), and have always been sad that he
> wasted the opportunity to teach more and contribute more as a good engineer
> for trying to outlawyer the lawyers. I still expect to see that Karl
> Auerbach's contributions make a difference.****
>
> [] ****
>
> Please give some actual evidence that Karl had any objective other than to
> assert the right that ICANN unlawfully denied him, that he had to go to
> court to assert because ICANN was so intransigent, and that he won.****
>
> ** **
>
> 3. There is something called esprit de corps and/or duty of loyalty to the
> organization. It is not in conflict with the duty of independence. There is
> a slight generralization that some non-USians tend to decide for a balance
> in favor of performing on both instead of privileging individual
> independence. Your mileage may vary.****
>
> ** **
>
> Maybe it was time for some in this group to find out that some histories
> are not as one-sided and clear cut as they may seem. Apologies if I bored
> you (Sala, Fahd, Riaz, Chaitanya, especially.)****
>
> ** **
>
> Yours,****
>
> ** **
>
> Alejandro Pisanty****
>
>    ****
>
> ! !! !!! !!!!****
>
> NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO****
>
>  ****
>
> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD ****
>
> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO ****
>
> SMS +525541444475
>      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>
> Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . ****
> ------------------------------
>
> *Desde:* governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [
> governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de Chaitanya Dhareshwar [
> chaitanyabd at gmail.com]
> *Enviado el:* lunes, 03 de septiembre de 2012 21:19
> *Hasta:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Karl Auerbach
> *CC:* Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
> *Asunto:* Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest****
>
> O_O****
>
>  ****
>
> No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?****
>
>  ****
>
> There's QUITE some detail in your diary Karl. I understand how this gives
> the public information - but how does this become insurance? Could you
> elaborate please?****
>
>  ****
>
> -C****
>
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:**
> **
>
> On 09/03/2012 03:02 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
>
> >     I am that board member.
> >
> > Karl, which seat number was it that you occupied at the time?****
>
> I don't remember having a number.
>
> I was the first (and only) publicly elected board member for the
> so-called "North American" area.  (I use quote marks because I thought
> it odd that ICANN's "North America" included Greenland but not Mexico.)
>
> There were five of these publicly elected seats, one for each of ICANN's
> geographic regions.  ICANN erased all of these seats so that there would
> never again be a public election.
>
> For the most part I thought that the five publicly elected directors
> were quite good - and in the North American election I felt that every
> candidate, except perhaps one, was extremely well qualified.  Because we
> all had to endure at least some degree of public selection the election
> process brought to the fore people who tended to be more opinionated
> than people who came to their board seats by a "nominating committee"
> process in which the criteria is sometimes that of choosing the least
> objectionable, most mainstream, rather than those who might give
> discomfort or ask too many questions.  There were complaints about the
> election process in that in some areas there was a lot of nationalistic
> and corporate activity; but that is to be expected when there are
> democratic processes - the winner often tends to be he/she who is the
> best organized.  (For online elections in these days of social media the
> value of corporate money and organization does not seem as strong an
> advantage as it is in more political governmental elections; I hope that
> this isn't just a transitory or illusory situation.)
>
> Here in the US there were seven of us running for the seat.  Some you
> may have heard of - such as Larry Lessig.  All were very good and we had
> a very vibrant election process including face-to-face debates (at
> Harvard and Stanford universities and several open online debates.)  My
> campaign platform is still online at:
>
> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm
>
> Many aspects of that platform remain important, but I'd like to draw
> your attention to one that is close to my heart:
>
> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm#full-members
>
> I regret one aspect of that platform - I misjudged Louis Touton and did
> not give him the credit he deserved.
>
> I also felt that it was important to give to the public the reasons for
> what I did when I was on the board, so I kept an on-line diary of my
> decisions.  (In order not to step on the toes of others I tried to
> record my points of view and not to reflect too much about what other
> board members were thinking - I figured that that was their obligation
> to perform, or not.)  I received a whole lot of subtle flak from ICANN
> for publishing that diary, although it now seems that what I did back
> then that was found so objectionable has been adopted to a degree in
> ICANN's inclusion of a rationale section in its board meeting minutes.
>
> That diary is still online at:
>
> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/diary/index.htm
>
> One of the reasons that I maintained that public diary was that I was
> (and am) quite aware of the tremendous risks of personal liability that
> hang over every director of a non-profit corporation.  Some of these
> liabilities seem to be such that they can not be protected against by
> any kind of insurance policy.  So, in addition to it simply being "the
> right thing to do" I created and maintained that diary so that I, should
> the occasion arise, have means to demonstrate that my acts were
> legitimately within the "business judgment rule" that protects corporate
> directors.
>
>         --karl--
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t****
>
> ** **
>
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____________________________________________________________
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To be removed from the list, visit:
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From apisan at unam.mx  Tue Sep  4 03:28:44 2012
From: apisan at unam.mx (Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 07:28:44 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <008b01cd8a68$fe131df0$fa3959d0$@jstyre.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>,<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>,<008b01cd8a68$fe131df0$fa3959d0$@jstyre.com>
Message-ID: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAD3E@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>

James,

there was no pre-defined electorate in the At-Large election. That blows up all fair constructs of democratic elections.

Andy was a fair contributor to the ICANN Board. He succeeded in creating awareness of a different generation and its views, of security approaches not everybody was acquainted with, and, most importantly, in pushing a privacy/data-protection agenda that got recognized and eventually developed.

Yours,

Alejandro Pisanty


! !! !!! !!!!
NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO



+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD

+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO

SMS +525541444475
     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico

Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

________________________________
Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de James S. Tyre [jstyre at jstyre.com]
Enviado el: martes, 04 de septiembre de 2012 01:46
Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch; 'Chaitanya Dhareshwar'; 'Karl Auerbach'
CC: 'Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro'
Asunto: RE: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

See below

--
James S. Tyre
Law Offices of James S. Tyre
10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512
Culver City, CA 90230-4969
310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
jstyre at jstyre.com
Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation
https://www.eff.org

From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 10:41 PM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Chaitanya Dhareshwar; Karl Auerbach
Cc: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
Subject: RE: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

Chaitanya, all,

1. the At-Large election procedure was deprecated because of its serious flaws, which Karl unfortunately fails to mention. They break the most basic principles of democratic election theory.

Elections are meant to split a given electorate among options (propositions, parties, or individual candidates.) The At Large election fails to do that. Instead, a candidate like Karl can bring in more voters than, say, the former President of the University of Maryland - not more votes: more voters - and the election result therefore is prescribed.
[]
Alejandro, this makes no sense.  Please explain the difference between more votes and more voters.  In any event, who, other than the voters, is to say whether Karl, the former President of the University of Maryland, Larry Lessig, Barbara Simons or others was the best candidate?

This is like when in older Mexico or in India a party can ferry voters in trucks.

Similarly, in the At-Large election Karl so unfairly romanticizes, arguments like "it is time Germany gets its deserved place in governing the Internet" were used by German-speaking media (not only in Germany but also in Austria) and there you are, the European space is taken.
[]
Pretty much all is fair in political campaigns.  What was inherently wrong with that?  Or are you just upset that the winner of that seat, Andy M-M, was almost as unlikely to toe the ICANN party line as Karl?

The same thing happened in Latin America. In every country there were 100-300 people interested in ICANN who took part in the election. "It is time Brazil gets its deserved place in governing the Internet" was argued by some entities in Brazil, including the ccTLD manager CGI Brazil (Internet Steering Committee), and action was directed even to non-Brazilians. There you get 2000 votes from Brazil.

In most cases not a word was heard again from any of the voters so we can be sure that the results were at best a flare-up.
[]
In the 2008 US Presidential election, I voted for [Obama or McCain, take your pick].  I have done nothing involving presidential politics (other than to vote in the primary this year) since.  At best, then, according to your logic, I’m a flare-up.

That’s a fairly serious misapprehension of politics and voting in a democracy (or Republic, as the case may be).

We substituted this supposedly ideal mechanism by a more complicated one but which ensures at least some level of trust in who is participating and some accountability and transparency. It hurts when you ask for accountability and transparency from individuals or organizations which are used to asking for it but not for providing it.
[]
ICANN had, and has, less trust in the electorate, than do virtually all elected governments.  Good to know.

We continue to struggle to build the At-Large organizational space but are light-years better than with the old "bring your electorate" (not win over your fraction of the electorate) method. Add to that the NomCom, which usually can look much further out, and the At-Large influence in the NomCom. Count also the enormous contributions to deliver the At-Large views made by Roberto Gaetano and Vittorio Bertola.

2. Karl's lawsuit's victory in court had no more result for Karl than a victory in court. He never found enough skeletons in the closets to avenge the fact that the ICANN proponents defeated the Boston Working Group in the bid for "Newco" as the concept-ICANN was known till the organization was formed. I have a long-standing (albeit at times contentious) friendship with Karl, I like a lot of what he does,have learned a lot from him, appreciate his many interests beyond technology and politics (we had a delightful run over the National Gallery in DC once, for example, and ask him about rebuilding old locomotives), and have always been sad that he wasted the opportunity to teach more and contribute more as a good engineer for trying to outlawyer the lawyers. I still expect to see that Karl Auerbach's contributions make a difference.
[]
Please give some actual evidence that Karl had any objective other than to assert the right that ICANN unlawfully denied him, that he had to go to court to assert because ICANN was so intransigent, and that he won.

3. There is something called esprit de corps and/or duty of loyalty to the organization. It is not in conflict with the duty of independence. There is a slight generralization that some non-USians tend to decide for a balance in favor of performing on both instead of privileging individual independence. Your mileage may vary.

Maybe it was time for some in this group to find out that some histories are not as one-sided and clear cut as they may seem. Apologies if I bored you (Sala, Fahd, Riaz, Chaitanya, especially.)

Yours,

Alejandro Pisanty

! !! !!! !!!!
NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO



+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD

+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO

SMS +525541444475
     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico

Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

________________________________
Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org> [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de Chaitanya Dhareshwar [chaitanyabd at gmail.com]
Enviado el: lunes, 03 de septiembre de 2012 21:19
Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Karl Auerbach
CC: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
Asunto: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
O_O

No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?

There's QUITE some detail in your diary Karl. I understand how this gives the public information - but how does this become insurance? Could you elaborate please?

-C
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com<mailto:karl at cavebear.com>> wrote:
On 09/03/2012 03:02 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:

>     I am that board member.
>
> Karl, which seat number was it that you occupied at the time?
I don't remember having a number.

I was the first (and only) publicly elected board member for the
so-called "North American" area.  (I use quote marks because I thought
it odd that ICANN's "North America" included Greenland but not Mexico.)

There were five of these publicly elected seats, one for each of ICANN's
geographic regions.  ICANN erased all of these seats so that there would
never again be a public election.

For the most part I thought that the five publicly elected directors
were quite good - and in the North American election I felt that every
candidate, except perhaps one, was extremely well qualified.  Because we
all had to endure at least some degree of public selection the election
process brought to the fore people who tended to be more opinionated
than people who came to their board seats by a "nominating committee"
process in which the criteria is sometimes that of choosing the least
objectionable, most mainstream, rather than those who might give
discomfort or ask too many questions.  There were complaints about the
election process in that in some areas there was a lot of nationalistic
and corporate activity; but that is to be expected when there are
democratic processes - the winner often tends to be he/she who is the
best organized.  (For online elections in these days of social media the
value of corporate money and organization does not seem as strong an
advantage as it is in more political governmental elections; I hope that
this isn't just a transitory or illusory situation.)

Here in the US there were seven of us running for the seat.  Some you
may have heard of - such as Larry Lessig.  All were very good and we had
a very vibrant election process including face-to-face debates (at
Harvard and Stanford universities and several open online debates.)  My
campaign platform is still online at:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm

Many aspects of that platform remain important, but I'd like to draw
your attention to one that is close to my heart:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm#full-members

I regret one aspect of that platform - I misjudged Louis Touton and did
not give him the credit he deserved.

I also felt that it was important to give to the public the reasons for
what I did when I was on the board, so I kept an on-line diary of my
decisions.  (In order not to step on the toes of others I tried to
record my points of view and not to reflect too much about what other
board members were thinking - I figured that that was their obligation
to perform, or not.)  I received a whole lot of subtle flak from ICANN
for publishing that diary, although it now seems that what I did back
then that was found so objectionable has been adopted to a degree in
ICANN's inclusion of a rationale section in its board meeting minutes.

That diary is still online at:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/diary/index.htm

One of the reasons that I maintained that public diary was that I was
(and am) quite aware of the tremendous risks of personal liability that
hang over every director of a non-profit corporation.  Some of these
liabilities seem to be such that they can not be protected against by
any kind of insurance policy.  So, in addition to it simply being "the
right thing to do" I created and maintained that diary so that I, should
the occasion arise, have means to demonstrate that my acts were
legitimately within the "business judgment rule" that protects corporate
directors.

        --karl--



____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
To be removed from the list, visit:
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____________________________________________________________
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To be removed from the list, visit:
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From apisan at unam.mx  Tue Sep  4 03:36:22 2012
From: apisan at unam.mx (Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 07:36:22 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKSo36nR7oaRUL9QTgKEVHRO9JFYTBXfiR3N-0oCKuM9wA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
	<008b01cd8a68$fe131df0$fa3959d0$@jstyre.com>,<CAEP5zKSo36nR7oaRUL9QTgKEVHRO9JFYTBXfiR3N-0oCKuM9wA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAD86@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>

Chaitanya,

a precision point: no, I don't speak about "buying votes" because I don't think any of the candidates who won the At-Large elections offered their voters material benefits in exchange for the vote.

But I think you did capture the ferrying in of masses of voters who would not be in the active voters list otherwise.

For the record, I found other candidates in the election preferrable to some who won but have no complaints about the elected ones. We were reasonably lucky that the gaming of the election didn't go any further. The process was just not robust enough to be fixable, as Adam thought at the time.

I had been very closed to how elections are set up and run to be more sanguine. With the experience accumulated since then I'm even more skeptical about the possibility of this type of open-ended processes until a number of conditions change.

Yours,

Alejandro Pisanty


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LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
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---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

________________________________
Desde: Chaitanya Dhareshwar [chaitanyabd at gmail.com]
Enviado el: martes, 04 de septiembre de 2012 02:27
Hasta: James S. Tyre
CC: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch; Karl Auerbach; Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
Asunto: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

James,

I think what Alex wanted to illustrate is that it's easy enough to 'buy' votes - maybe by making a commitment, or people are 'sold' because they see the candidate's profile and are happy to have a leap of faith believing their choice of candidate will make a difference.

The difference between voters and votes - in India at least - is usually the number of people that get pulled in by the campaign versus the number of people that made a researched choice to vote for a given candidate. The flare up effect would happen because of this - say I advertise that I intend to bring in massive projects for farmers - maybe free electricity - the farmers are likely to vote for me; however these are the 'flares' that may not have any real interest in me, my capability or my future in that seat.

The last part about evidence, etc - see Alex is not saying that he didnt deserve the win. He's just saying that the result of that didnt change much - which is in line with what Karl said "ICANN did not change much after my law suite prevailed."

-Chaitanya

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:16 PM, James S. Tyre <jstyre at jstyre.com<mailto:jstyre at jstyre.com>> wrote:
See below

--
James S. Tyre
Law Offices of James S. Tyre
10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512
Culver City, CA 90230-4969
310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
jstyre at jstyre.com<mailto:jstyre at jstyre.com>
Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation
https://www.eff.org

From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>] On Behalf Of Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 10:41 PM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Chaitanya Dhareshwar; Karl Auerbach
Cc: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
Subject: RE: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

Chaitanya, all,

1. the At-Large election procedure was deprecated because of its serious flaws, which Karl unfortunately fails to mention. They break the most basic principles of democratic election theory.

Elections are meant to split a given electorate among options (propositions, parties, or individual candidates.) The At Large election fails to do that. Instead, a candidate like Karl can bring in more voters than, say, the former President of the University of Maryland - not more votes: more voters - and the election result therefore is prescribed.
[]
Alejandro, this makes no sense.  Please explain the difference between more votes and more voters.  In any event, who, other than the voters, is to say whether Karl, the former President of the University of Maryland, Larry Lessig, Barbara Simons or others was the best candidate?

This is like when in older Mexico or in India a party can ferry voters in trucks.

Similarly, in the At-Large election Karl so unfairly romanticizes, arguments like "it is time Germany gets its deserved place in governing the Internet" were used by German-speaking media (not only in Germany but also in Austria) and there you are, the European space is taken.
[]
Pretty much all is fair in political campaigns.  What was inherently wrong with that?  Or are you just upset that the winner of that seat, Andy M-M, was almost as unlikely to toe the ICANN party line as Karl?

The same thing happened in Latin America. In every country there were 100-300 people interested in ICANN who took part in the election. "It is time Brazil gets its deserved place in governing the Internet" was argued by some entities in Brazil, including the ccTLD manager CGI Brazil (Internet Steering Committee), and action was directed even to non-Brazilians. There you get 2000 votes from Brazil.

In most cases not a word was heard again from any of the voters so we can be sure that the results were at best a flare-up.
[]
In the 2008 US Presidential election, I voted for [Obama or McCain, take your pick].  I have done nothing involving presidential politics (other than to vote in the primary this year) since.  At best, then, according to your logic, I’m a flare-up.

That’s a fairly serious misapprehension of politics and voting in a democracy (or Republic, as the case may be).

We substituted this supposedly ideal mechanism by a more complicated one but which ensures at least some level of trust in who is participating and some accountability and transparency. It hurts when you ask for accountability and transparency from individuals or organizations which are used to asking for it but not for providing it.
[]
ICANN had, and has, less trust in the electorate, than do virtually all elected governments.  Good to know.

We continue to struggle to build the At-Large organizational space but are light-years better than with the old "bring your electorate" (not win over your fraction of the electorate) method. Add to that the NomCom, which usually can look much further out, and the At-Large influence in the NomCom. Count also the enormous contributions to deliver the At-Large views made by Roberto Gaetano and Vittorio Bertola.

2. Karl's lawsuit's victory in court had no more result for Karl than a victory in court. He never found enough skeletons in the closets to avenge the fact that the ICANN proponents defeated the Boston Working Group in the bid for "Newco" as the concept-ICANN was known till the organization was formed. I have a long-standing (albeit at times contentious) friendship with Karl, I like a lot of what he does,have learned a lot from him, appreciate his many interests beyond technology and politics (we had a delightful run over the National Gallery in DC once, for example, and ask him about rebuilding old locomotives), and have always been sad that he wasted the opportunity to teach more and contribute more as a good engineer for trying to outlawyer the lawyers. I still expect to see that Karl Auerbach's contributions make a difference.
[]
Please give some actual evidence that Karl had any objective other than to assert the right that ICANN unlawfully denied him, that he had to go to court to assert because ICANN was so intransigent, and that he won.

3. There is something called esprit de corps and/or duty of loyalty to the organization. It is not in conflict with the duty of independence. There is a slight generralization that some non-USians tend to decide for a balance in favor of performing on both instead of privileging individual independence. Your mileage may vary.

Maybe it was time for some in this group to find out that some histories are not as one-sided and clear cut as they may seem. Apologies if I bored you (Sala, Fahd, Riaz, Chaitanya, especially.)

Yours,

Alejandro Pisanty

! !! !!! !!!!
NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO



+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD

+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO

SMS +525541444475
     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico

Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

________________________________
Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org> [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>] en nombre de Chaitanya Dhareshwar [chaitanyabd at gmail.com<mailto:chaitanyabd at gmail.com>]
Enviado el: lunes, 03 de septiembre de 2012 21:19
Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Karl Auerbach
CC: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
Asunto: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
O_O

No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?

There's QUITE some detail in your diary Karl. I understand how this gives the public information - but how does this become insurance? Could you elaborate please?

-C
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com<mailto:karl at cavebear.com>> wrote:
On 09/03/2012 03:02 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:

>     I am that board member.
>
> Karl, which seat number was it that you occupied at the time?
I don't remember having a number.

I was the first (and only) publicly elected board member for the
so-called "North American" area.  (I use quote marks because I thought
it odd that ICANN's "North America" included Greenland but not Mexico.)

There were five of these publicly elected seats, one for each of ICANN's
geographic regions.  ICANN erased all of these seats so that there would
never again be a public election.

For the most part I thought that the five publicly elected directors
were quite good - and in the North American election I felt that every
candidate, except perhaps one, was extremely well qualified.  Because we
all had to endure at least some degree of public selection the election
process brought to the fore people who tended to be more opinionated
than people who came to their board seats by a "nominating committee"
process in which the criteria is sometimes that of choosing the least
objectionable, most mainstream, rather than those who might give
discomfort or ask too many questions.  There were complaints about the
election process in that in some areas there was a lot of nationalistic
and corporate activity; but that is to be expected when there are
democratic processes - the winner often tends to be he/she who is the
best organized.  (For online elections in these days of social media the
value of corporate money and organization does not seem as strong an
advantage as it is in more political governmental elections; I hope that
this isn't just a transitory or illusory situation.)

Here in the US there were seven of us running for the seat.  Some you
may have heard of - such as Larry Lessig.  All were very good and we had
a very vibrant election process including face-to-face debates (at
Harvard and Stanford universities and several open online debates.)  My
campaign platform is still online at:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm

Many aspects of that platform remain important, but I'd like to draw
your attention to one that is close to my heart:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm#full-members

I regret one aspect of that platform - I misjudged Louis Touton and did
not give him the credit he deserved.

I also felt that it was important to give to the public the reasons for
what I did when I was on the board, so I kept an on-line diary of my
decisions.  (In order not to step on the toes of others I tried to
record my points of view and not to reflect too much about what other
board members were thinking - I figured that that was their obligation
to perform, or not.)  I received a whole lot of subtle flak from ICANN
for publishing that diary, although it now seems that what I did back
then that was found so objectionable has been adopted to a degree in
ICANN's inclusion of a rationale section in its board meeting minutes.

That diary is still online at:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/diary/index.htm

One of the reasons that I maintained that public diary was that I was
(and am) quite aware of the tremendous risks of personal liability that
hang over every director of a non-profit corporation.  Some of these
liabilities seem to be such that they can not be protected against by
any kind of insurance policy.  So, in addition to it simply being "the
right thing to do" I created and maintained that diary so that I, should
the occasion arise, have means to demonstrate that my acts were
legitimately within the "business judgment rule" that protects corporate
directors.

        --karl--



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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 03:39:46 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 10:39:46 +0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiD7izzkgQNsuoo=wqj5GDW=D25iHBoaNy3eag_9QZAQBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <20120902181555.16F4E21AB6@inbound-queue-3.mail.thdo.gradwell.net> <VH5MTjiMDGRQFAB$@internetpolicyagency.com> <50446C1E.7090402@gmail.com> <CACAaNxi0nuTdiSMi1km=AhfsmarZSq7uuXJ5A8So_O4uB7wmdQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAJwbTiD7izzkgQNsuoo=wqj5GDW=D25iHBoaNy3eag_9QZAQBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5045B042.1060608@gmail.com>

and space for ethics - as Karl's post shows, not least regarding 
finances? In general, the US polity may accept cutting of welfare while 
big corporates rip their taxes off (from the Iraq war through to big 
corporates getting small business grants) but this may not be acceptable 
others of us. The system IS open enough to allow some dissent, but there 
are systemic imbalances... this is different from many countries as 
critics are not necessarily crowded out totally (and here credit is due 
to the rich countries - exceptionalism - but this does not mean that 
critics are not ostracised... as someone put it, why does the toast 
always fall butter side down?

and as Hegel put it, to paraphrase, in the contest of interests - what 
space for virtue...? And how is this position any different from 'might 
is right'?

It would serve as a good reminder for those who are 'disinterested' that 
even Mandela was a terrorist according to the US until about five years 
after he became president...


On 2012/09/04 02:41 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
> I agree with McTim, there are only divergent and convergent interests...;)

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From karl at cavebear.com  Tue Sep  4 03:40:33 2012
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 00:40:33 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiCx9iu+RqwsCbGAamXfH6UJ_m2JGQ3nYivZrQySGMxFUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com> <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com> <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com> <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com> <CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com> <CAJwbTiCx9iu+RqwsCbGAamXfH6UJ_m2JGQ3nYivZrQySGMxFUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5045B071.9070803@cavebear.com>

On 09/03/2012 07:53 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:

> To answer your question it would be the holder of Seat 15.

By-the-way, to ring my own bell more than a bit excessively - I was a
member of the 2008 Board Review Committee that pushed hard for that seat
to be created - our report may be viewed at:

> http://www.icann.org/en/groups/reviews/alac/final-report-alac-review-28jan09-en.pdf

(I agreed with the report, but I went a bit further and wrote Appendix 3
starting on page 32.)

I am a strong advocate of the idea that bodies of governance should have
strong, even dominant, elements of public control.

But we all must recognize that there is a legitimate fear held by many
of a notion that I will ungraciously call "the mob" - we have all seen
how in electronic discussions that a few can derail the progress of the
many.

In any body of internet governance we need to have a seed of public
participation - I prefer a large seed others prefer a smaller one - from
which can grow a respectful and disciplined body and process for debate
and decision making.

	--karl--




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From rudi.vansnick at isoc.be  Tue Sep  4 03:48:03 2012
From: rudi.vansnick at isoc.be (Rudi Vansnick)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 09:48:03 +0200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com> <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com> <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com> <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>,<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com> <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
Message-ID: <7DE45377-56E6-4741-BE1F-65FD4DF467B0@isoc.be>

Really a very good analytical view and summary ... basis for further discussion i would say.

Rudi Vansnick

Op 4-sep-2012, om 07:40 heeft Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch het volgende geschreven:

> Chaitanya, all,
> 
> 1. the At-Large election procedure was deprecated because of its serious flaws, which Karl unfortunately fails to mention. They break the most basic principles of democratic election theory.
> 
> Elections are meant to split a given electorate among options (propositions, parties, or individual candidates.) The At Large election fails to do that. Instead, a candidate like Karl can bring in more voters than, say, the former President of the University of Maryland - not more votes: more voters - and the election result therefore is prescribed.
> 
> This is like when in older Mexico or in India a party can ferry voters in trucks. 
> 
> Similarly, in the At-Large election Karl so unfairly romanticizes, arguments like "it is time Germany gets its deserved place in governing the Internet" were used by German-speaking media (not only in Germany but also in Austria) and there you are, the European space is taken.
> 
> The same thing happened in Latin America. In every country there were 100-300 people interested in ICANN who took part in the election. "It is time Brazil gets its deserved place in governing the Internet" was argued by some entities in Brazil, including the ccTLD manager CGI Brazil (Internet Steering Committee), and action was directed even to non-Brazilians. There you get 2000 votes from Brazil. 
> 
> In most cases not a word was heard again from any of the voters so we can be sure that the results were at best a flare-up. 
> 
> We substituted this supposedly ideal mechanism by a more complicated one but which ensures at least some level of trust in who is participating and some accountability and transparency. It hurts when you ask for accountability and transparency from individuals or organizations which are used to asking for it but not for providing it.
> 
> We continue to struggle to build the At-Large organizational space but are light-years better than with the old "bring your electorate" (not win over your fraction of the electorate) method. Add to that the NomCom, which usually can look much further out, and the At-Large influence in the NomCom. Count also the enormous contributions to deliver the At-Large views made by Roberto Gaetano and Vittorio Bertola. 
> 
> 2. Karl's lawsuit's victory in court had no more result for Karl than a victory in court. He never found enough skeletons in the closets to avenge the fact that the ICANN proponents defeated the Boston Working Group in the bid for "Newco" as the concept-ICANN was known till the organization was formed. I have a long-standing (albeit at times contentious) friendship with Karl, I like a lot of what he does,have learned a lot from him, appreciate his many interests beyond technology and politics (we had a delightful run over the National Gallery in DC once, for example, and ask him about rebuilding old locomotives), and have always been sad that he wasted the opportunity to teach more and contribute more as a good engineer for trying to outlawyer the lawyers. I still expect to see that Karl Auerbach's contributions make a difference.
> 
> 3. There is something called esprit de corps and/or duty of loyalty to the organization. It is not in conflict with the duty of independence. There is a slight generralization that some non-USians tend to decide for a balance in favor of performing on both instead of privileging individual independence. Your mileage may vary.
> 
> Maybe it was time for some in this group to find out that some histories are not as one-sided and clear cut as they may seem. Apologies if I bored you (Sala, Fahd, Riaz, Chaitanya, especially.)
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Alejandro Pisanty
>   
> ! !! !!! !!!!
> NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO
>  
> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
> 
> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO
> 
> SMS +525541444475 
>      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
> 
> Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 
> 
> Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de Chaitanya Dhareshwar [chaitanyabd at gmail.com]
> Enviado el: lunes, 03 de septiembre de 2012 21:19
> Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Karl Auerbach
> CC: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Asunto: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
> 
> O_O
>  
> No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?
>  
> There's QUITE some detail in your diary Karl. I understand how this gives the public information - but how does this become insurance? Could you elaborate please?
>  
> -C
> 
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:
> On 09/03/2012 03:02 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
> 
> >     I am that board member.
> >
> > Karl, which seat number was it that you occupied at the time?
> 
> I don't remember having a number.
> 
> I was the first (and only) publicly elected board member for the
> so-called "North American" area.  (I use quote marks because I thought
> it odd that ICANN's "North America" included Greenland but not Mexico.)
> 
> There were five of these publicly elected seats, one for each of ICANN's
> geographic regions.  ICANN erased all of these seats so that there would
> never again be a public election.
> 
> For the most part I thought that the five publicly elected directors
> were quite good - and in the North American election I felt that every
> candidate, except perhaps one, was extremely well qualified.  Because we
> all had to endure at least some degree of public selection the election
> process brought to the fore people who tended to be more opinionated
> than people who came to their board seats by a "nominating committee"
> process in which the criteria is sometimes that of choosing the least
> objectionable, most mainstream, rather than those who might give
> discomfort or ask too many questions.  There were complaints about the
> election process in that in some areas there was a lot of nationalistic
> and corporate activity; but that is to be expected when there are
> democratic processes - the winner often tends to be he/she who is the
> best organized.  (For online elections in these days of social media the
> value of corporate money and organization does not seem as strong an
> advantage as it is in more political governmental elections; I hope that
> this isn't just a transitory or illusory situation.)
> 
> Here in the US there were seven of us running for the seat.  Some you
> may have heard of - such as Larry Lessig.  All were very good and we had
> a very vibrant election process including face-to-face debates (at
> Harvard and Stanford universities and several open online debates.)  My
> campaign platform is still online at:
> 
> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm
> 
> Many aspects of that platform remain important, but I'd like to draw
> your attention to one that is close to my heart:
> 
> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm#full-members
> 
> I regret one aspect of that platform - I misjudged Louis Touton and did
> not give him the credit he deserved.
> 
> I also felt that it was important to give to the public the reasons for
> what I did when I was on the board, so I kept an on-line diary of my
> decisions.  (In order not to step on the toes of others I tried to
> record my points of view and not to reflect too much about what other
> board members were thinking - I figured that that was their obligation
> to perform, or not.)  I received a whole lot of subtle flak from ICANN
> for publishing that diary, although it now seems that what I did back
> then that was found so objectionable has been adopted to a degree in
> ICANN's inclusion of a rationale section in its board meeting minutes.
> 
> That diary is still online at:
> 
> http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/diary/index.htm
> 
> One of the reasons that I maintained that public diary was that I was
> (and am) quite aware of the tremendous risks of personal liability that
> hang over every director of a non-profit corporation.  Some of these
> liabilities seem to be such that they can not be protected against by
> any kind of insurance policy.  So, in addition to it simply being "the
> right thing to do" I created and maintained that diary so that I, should
> the occasion arise, have means to demonstrate that my acts were
> legitimately within the "business judgment rule" that protects corporate
> directors.
> 
>         --karl--
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
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> 
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From karl at cavebear.com  Tue Sep  4 04:05:04 2012
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 01:05:04 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com> <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com> <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com> <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>,<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com> <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
Message-ID: <5045B630.4080806@cavebear.com>


By-the-way, our original BWG - Boston Working Group - materials are
online at:

http://cavebear.com/bwg/

The BWG has been sort of a mysterious body, and it is made more
mysterious by the fact that over the years several members have served
on ICANN's board of directors (including chair).

After our submissions to NTIA in 1998 we evolved into closed debating
group.  One of the things that glues us together is that we have gone
beyond electronics - nearly all of us have worked together face to face.
 In the world of the internet it is easy to forget that once one has
broken bread with another person it becomes hard to dismiss or be
disrespectful to that person.

	--karl--


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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 03:44:42 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 10:44:42 +0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com> <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com> <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com> <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>,<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com> <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
Message-ID: <5045B16A.6020008@gmail.com>

This is not boring, as was said previously we (or I) am happy to 
engage.. so long as our democratic/ethical choices are valued based on 
reason (i.e. justifiable even if not acceptable).

Conrad made some wonderful interventions... and so do you... so let not 
robustness limit the discussions, there is virtue in openness and candour...
On 2012/09/04 08:40 AM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch wrote:
>
> Maybe it was time for some in this group to find out that some 
> histories are not as one-sided and clear cut as they may seem. 
> Apologies if I bored you (Sala, Fahd, Riaz, Chaitanya, especially.)


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From karl at cavebear.com  Tue Sep  4 05:10:41 2012
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 02:10:41 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <7DE45377-56E6-4741-BE1F-65FD4DF467B0@isoc.be>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com> <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com> <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com> <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>,<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com> <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local> <7DE45377-56E6-4741-BE1F-65FD4DF467B0@isoc.be>
Message-ID: <5045C591.9010904@cavebear.com>

On 09/04/2012 12:48 AM, Rudi Vansnick wrote:
> Really a very good analytical view and summary ... basis for further
> discussion i would say.

Well to initiate that discussion let me throw out this thought:

Internet governance is about who gets to exercise power (and power's
right-hand, money).

Throughout history control of power and selection of those to exercise
that power have been the number one and number two issues for those who
study systems of governance.

In a sense these are questions of how one contains a battle and divides
the spoils of that battle.

Some try to manage and confine the battle.

Others try to use the dynamics of that battle to create systems in which
"ambition counters ambition".  Such, for example, is the mechanism
underlying the US Constitution with its "separation of powers".  (Many
other modern nations structure their systems of governance along these
principles.)

In our discussion on this thread it seems to me that Alejandro has been
the advocate of the managed point of view and I the advocate of the
"ambition counter ambition" point of view.

To my mind trying to control or manage the fight over who gets to be in
charge of power is to swim upriver against a strong current of human
nature.  And the power to manage can create an almost irresistible urge
in the managers to shape the outcome.

Under the way that ICANN initially tried to manage the election - by
requiring that all candidates be placed on the ballot by a nominating
committee - I would not even have been able to be a candidate.

How did I win the ICANN election?  By being the best candidate offering
the best platform and building a strong constituency of backers.

I formed a party with Barbara Simons and Larry Lessig - it did not
really matter to us which one of us won.  Our positions differed
slightly but interlocked so that our voices would aggregate and our
differences would give three dimensional depth to the issues.

We talked to the electorate - I traveled, at my own expense, across the
North American continent several times.  And I was an active participant
in debates, on discussion boards, on radio shows, in and interviews.

Another candidate (who would have made an excellent board member)
campaigned at a very local level.  (There is an amusing story how he
ordered a campaign banner that, in the style of the movie Spinal Tap,
was almost made 12x the requested size due to confusion over the units
of measurement.)

We were far from the most wealthy of the contestants - one candidate was
the head of a sizable intellectual protection body with large financial
resources.  He lost.  But I knew that in the next round of elections
(which were never held) that he would be far better organized and might win.

During my term I maintained strong contact with the electorate - Yes, I
was actively building a base for the next election.  That wasn't a
craven or improper act - it meant a better ICANN better in touch with
the community of internet users.

All in all I felt that the election of year 2000 for the North American
seat was a fine exercise in public democracy that deserved another round
in 2002.

That election did have some problems - mostly ICANN's very flawed voter
registration system that disenfranchised many people who tried to vote.
 Those could have been easily and relatively inexpensively repaired for
the election cycle two years hence.

I can't agree that the Asian experience with nationalist and corporate
efforts to get-out-the-vote were reason to abandon elections within
ICANN.  I don't agree with the implicit assertion that residents of a
country or workers for a corporation are automatons who are unable to
think for themselves.

And if some regions had low voter turnout - to me that is an opportunity
to do better next time not a reason to declare failure and close the shop.

In a good election candidates clearly state positions.  Clearly my
positions about ICANN's role and structure made some incumbents
uncomfortable.

	--karl--



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From nkurunziza1999 at yahoo.fr  Tue Sep  4 07:02:18 2012
From: nkurunziza1999 at yahoo.fr (Jean Paul NKURUNZIZA)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 12:02:18 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [governance] Visa letters for Baku are being sent.  I have
 received one
In-Reply-To: <1346698076.15752.YahooMailNeo@web130106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1346698076.15752.YahooMailNeo@web130106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1346756538.49042.YahooMailNeo@web171404.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

Hi Nnenna, 
That's a good news.


I have sent a request of the visa letter on 30 August 2012, but I have not got it yet.
When did you send your request ? 


Regards

 
NKURUNZIZA Jean Paul
TRAINER IN COMPUTING AND INTERNET POLICY


ISOC BURUNDI : VICE PRESIDENT
Réseau des Télécentres Communautaires du Burundi : Président
www.rtcb.bi


Burundi Youth Training Centre : Secrétaire Général
www.bytc.bi


Facebook :  http://www.facebook.com/jeanpaul.nkurunziza
Tel : +257 79 981459


________________________________
 De : Nnenna <nne75 at yahoo.com>
À : IG Caucus <governance at lists.igcaucus.org> 
Cc : Baudouin Schombe <b.schombe at gmail.com> 
Envoyé le : Lundi 3 septembre 2012 20h47
Objet : [governance] Visa letters for Baku are being sent.  I have received one
 

Hi people,
 
I reveived:
 
"Hello,


pls. find attached the respective invitation letter. Looking forward to see you in Baku.

-- 
Best
 Regards,


Murad Maksudov
IGF Host Country Secretariat,
Visa Department
+994 70 2100900"
 
FYI

 


Nnenna  Nwakanma |  Founder and CEO, NNENNA.ORG  |  Consultants
Information | Communications | Technology and Events | for
 Development
Cote d'Ivoire (+225)| Tel: 225 27144 | Fax  224 26471 |Mob. 07416820
Ghana: +233 249561345| Nigeria: +234 8101887065| http://www.nnenna.org 
nnenna at nnenna.org| @nnenna | Skype - nnenna75 | nnennaorg.blogspot.com

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From nkurunziza1999 at yahoo.fr  Tue Sep  4 07:14:21 2012
From: nkurunziza1999 at yahoo.fr (Jean Paul NKURUNZIZA)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 12:14:21 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [governance] Visa letters for Baku are being sent.  I have
 received one
In-Reply-To: <1346756538.49042.YahooMailNeo@web171404.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
References: <1346698076.15752.YahooMailNeo@web130106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1346756538.49042.YahooMailNeo@web171404.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1346757261.69821.YahooMailNeo@web171402.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

Hi all, 


I am really sorry for the confusion : I have just found that the visa letter was sent to me.

Sorry for previous message.

Regards

 
NKURUNZIZA Jean Paul
TRAINER IN COMPUTING AND INTERNET POLICY


ISOC BURUNDI : VICE PRESIDENT
Réseau des Télécentres Communautaires du Burundi : Président
www.rtcb.bi


Burundi Youth Training Centre : Secrétaire Général
www.bytc.bi


Facebook :  http://www.facebook.com/jeanpaul.nkurunziza
Tel : +257 79 981459


________________________________
 De : Jean Paul NKURUNZIZA <nkurunziza1999 at yahoo.fr>
À : "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Nnenna <nne75 at yahoo.com> 
Cc : Baudouin Schombe <b.schombe at gmail.com> 
Envoyé le : Mardi 4 septembre 2012 13h02
Objet : Re: [governance] Visa letters for Baku are being sent.  I have received one
 

Hi Nnenna, 
That's a good news.


I have sent a request of the visa letter on 30 August 2012, but I have not got it yet.
When did you send your request ? 


Regards
 
NKURUNZIZA Jean Paul
TRAINER IN COMPUTING AND INTERNET POLICY


ISOC BURUNDI : VICE PRESIDENT
Réseau des Télécentres Communautaires du Burundi : Président
www.rtcb.bi


Burundi Youth Training Centre : Secrétaire Général
www.bytc.bi


Facebook :  http://www.facebook.com/jeanpaul.nkurunziza
Tel : +257 79 981459


________________________________
 De : Nnenna <nne75 at yahoo.com>
À : IG Caucus <governance at lists.igcaucus.org> 
Cc : Baudouin Schombe <b.schombe at gmail.com> 
Envoyé le : Lundi 3 septembre 2012 20h47
Objet : [governance] Visa letters for Baku are being sent.  I have received one
 

Hi people,
 
I reveived:
 
"Hello,


pls. find attached the respective invitation letter. Looking forward to see you in Baku.

-- 
Best
 Regards,


Murad Maksudov
IGF Host Country Secretariat,
Visa Department
+994 70 2100900"
 
FYI

 


Nnenna  Nwakanma |  Founder and CEO, NNENNA.ORG  |  Consultants
Information | Communications | Technology and Events | for
 Development
Cote d'Ivoire (+225)| Tel: 225 27144 | Fax  224 26471 |Mob. 07416820
Ghana: +233 249561345| Nigeria: +234 8101887065| http://www.nnenna.org 
nnenna at nnenna.org| @nnenna | Skype - nnenna75 | nnennaorg.blogspot.com

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From nb at bollow.ch  Tue Sep  4 08:07:25 2012
From: nb at bollow.ch (Norbert Bollow)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 14:07:25 +0200
Subject: [governance] Caribbean Internet Governance Forum [Lessons the
 world can learn] #Enhanced Cooperation
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiCz7CSPMXM9i23Lw2vcNv40zm34tyfMb2JtzTf+NW7R3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJwbTiCz7CSPMXM9i23Lw2vcNv40zm34tyfMb2JtzTf+NW7R3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120904140725.334619f0@quill.bollow.ch>

On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 15:10:56 +1200
"Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro" <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Some of you may be aware that the Caribbean will be hosting their
> Regional IGF soon. I think the world has alot to learn from the
> approach that the Caribbean is taking, remote participation is
> available but you need to register via: http://www.ctu.int/cigf8
> It will run from the 29th -30th August, 2012.
> 
> For those interested in seeing "enhanced cooperation" in action,
> please download a copy of the Caribbean Internet Governance
> Framework. You will see very clear the values based engagement that
> is apparent in the collaborative manner in which they are engaging.

Is there a direct link to the document (that does't require registering
first?)

Greetings,
Norbert

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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 09:33:33 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 01:33:33 +1200
Subject: [governance] Caribbean Internet Governance Forum [Lessons the
 world can learn] #Enhanced Cooperation
In-Reply-To: <20120904140725.334619f0@quill.bollow.ch>
References: <CAJwbTiCz7CSPMXM9i23Lw2vcNv40zm34tyfMb2JtzTf+NW7R3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120904140725.334619f0@quill.bollow.ch>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiAxJBe-VfGwXtaVZ3FHr7wfO86=2SbKtqspr3qVfmABQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 12:07 AM, Norbert Bollow <nb at bollow.ch> wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 15:10:56 +1200
> "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro" <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Some of you may be aware that the Caribbean will be hosting their
> > Regional IGF soon. I think the world has alot to learn from the
> > approach that the Caribbean is taking, remote participation is
> > available but you need to register via: http://www.ctu.int/cigf8
> > It will run from the 29th -30th August, 2012.
> >
> > For those interested in seeing "enhanced cooperation" in action,
> > please download a copy of the Caribbean Internet Governance
> > Framework. You will see very clear the values based engagement that
> > is apparent in the collaborative manner in which they are engaging.
>
> Is there a direct link to the document (that does't require registering
> first?)


The document is accessible without registering. If you are sill unable to
access it I can forward you a soft copy of the version I have before the
CIGF. The document has since been revised at the CIGF.

>


> Greetings,
> Norbert
>



-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From mueller at syr.edu  Tue Sep  4 12:19:00 2012
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 16:19:00 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN's legal status
Message-ID: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD2E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>



From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Dominique Lacroix
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 10:13 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Subject: Re: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs

Le 01/09/12 15:50, Chaitanya Dhareshwar a écrit :
Indeed ICANN *IS* doing a splendid job in terms of a clean simple non-bureaucratic process for the public.
Yes, of course, dear Chaitanya.
But, as in every activity, the world needs to know what sort of organization it is.
A US private one, submitted to commercial laws?
An international quasi-public organization, immune vis-a-vis commercial laws?
An American agency, working for the American nation interests through the world?

MM:
It is a California "nonprofit public benefit" corporation" (or at least, it is pretending to be one, until such time as it really pisses someone off and they challenge its nonprofit status).

Which means quite a bit to a California lawyer, and is meaningless to Indians, Chinese, Europeans and many, many others. For those who read English, the California public benefit corporation law is not that difficult to decipher; however, fully understanding the case law and interpretations around it would take some work.

However, as I have emphasized again and again, California Corp. law does not dictate what policies ICANN makes, it only structures the organizational form of the corporation that runs the policy development process. As legal frameworks go, it could be better or it could be worse. As such, those who insist that it would be more legitimate and accountable under international law are almost certainly mistaken, given that governments and international law would give the corporation all kinds of immunities that would actually insulate it from certain forms of legal accountability and public input. Not to mention the severe geopolitics that would be involved in getting 150 governments to agree on anything.

So to answer your specific questions:

It is a US private corporation, incorporated under nonprofit law in California, not commercial law.

I would say that it is ALSO an international organization, in that it is expressly charged with a global coordination role, but it is NOT immune from antitrust law -- it is illegal to collude to constrain trade whether or not you are a 'commercial' corporation. E.g., a nonprofit association of soybean producers could be subject to antitrust law.

ICANN itself is not working for American national interests throughout the world, but because of the remaining tethers to the Commerce Department, it is subject to more pressure from the US government than other governments. But it is important to understand that ICANN itself would prefer not to be tied to the USG via the IANA contract. ICANN's staff and CEO have made this clear in numerous filings and comments. Further, ICANN embodies a policy preference that is supported by the US - and many other governments - to keep the Internet relatively insulated from national governments.

Hope that answers your questions.

Disclaimer: the foregoing words were meant to be an accurate description of ICANN's legal status. Nothing in the foregoing should be construed as a defense of US hegemony, support for the Vietnam war, support for any ICANN decision or board member, Big Pharma, the RIAA, obesity, Chuck Norris or Clint Eastwood.


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From mueller at syr.edu  Tue Sep  4 12:21:01 2012
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 16:21:01 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD63@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>

Surely we all know that ICANN has been in this hornet's nest since at least 2004, when .xxx was first mooted.


From: pouzin at gmail.com [mailto:pouzin at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Louis Pouzin (well)
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 1:40 PM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/internet/Domain-names-spark-dispute-among-religious-groups/articleshow/16130800.cms

Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications

https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/viewcomments

Let's put up a $185K award for the last one !

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From sana.pryhod at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 12:45:48 2012
From: sana.pryhod at gmail.com (Oksana Prykhodko)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 19:45:48 +0300
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
Message-ID: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

I would like to add new food to our old discussion about propriety to
hold international events in non-democratic countries.

Kiev just now is hosting World Newspaper Congress, with participation
of the most influential editors and journalists from the whole world.

Yesterday Jacob Mathew, President of the World Association of
Newspapers and News Publishers (WAN-IFRA), gave excellent analysis of
media situation in Ukraine, underlined main threats to media freedom.
Then Ukrainian president Victor Yanulovich gave his interpretation of
the same situation, stating, that there are no problems for the
freedom of speech in Ukraine.
During his speech 12 Ukrainian journalists and media activists (I was
among them) stood up with critical banners. And were brutally attacked
by Yanukovich securities.

It was excellent illustration to his words, and received world-wide
coverage (except of Ukrainian TV channels).

Today 14 the most influential editors met Yanukovich and demanded to
investigate this incident and not to persecute protesters.

I really highly appreciate support of WAN-IFRA and all lessons, that
it gave to Ukraine. And I hope that IGF in Baku will be also of great
use to Azeris.

Best regards,
Oksana

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/09/03/world/europe/03reuters-ukraine-journalists-protest.html?_r=2&ref=politics
http://www.wan-ifra.org/articles/2012/09/06/press-freedom-an-own-goal-for-ukraine

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From jstyre at jstyre.com  Tue Sep  4 12:49:13 2012
From: jstyre at jstyre.com (James S. Tyre)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 09:49:13 -0700
Subject: [governance] Securing Digital Democracy
Message-ID: <00cc01cd8abd$375ce7e0$a616b7a0$@jstyre.com>

This is a free online course by University of Michigan CS Prof Alex Halderman, an expert
in the field.  Officially it started yesterday, but one can register and start when one
wants.  I could be wrong (I often am), but I thought it might interest some here.

https://www.coursera.org/course/digitaldemocracy

Securing Digital Democracy
J. Alex Halderman
In this course, you'll learn what every citizen should know about the security risks--and
future potential - of electronic voting and Internet voting.

Sign Up


Watch intro video
Started on: 3 September 2012 (5 weeks long)
Workload: 2-3 hours/week 
Information, Technology, and Design
Computer Science: Systems, Security, Networking
 

About the Course
Computer technology has transformed how we participate in democracy. The way we cast our
votes, the way our votes are counted, and the way we choose who will lead are increasingly
controlled by invisible computer software. Most U.S. states have adopted electronic
voting, and countries around the world are starting to collect votes over the Internet.
However, computerized voting raises startling security risks that are only beginning to be
understood outside the research lab, from voting machine viruses that can silently change
votes to the possibility that hackers in foreign countries could steal an election. This
course will provide the technical background and public policy foundation that 21st
century citizens need to understand the electronic voting debate. You'll learn how
electronic voting and Internet voting technologies work, why they're being introduced, and
what problems they aim to solve. You'll also learn about the computer- and
Internet-security risks these systems face and the serious vulnerabilities that recent
research has demonstrated. We'll cover widely used safeguards, checks, and balances - and
why they are often inadequate. Finally, we'll see how computer technology has the
potential to improve election security, if it's applied intelligently. Along the way,
you'll hear stories from the lab and from the trenches on a journey that leads from Mumbai
jail cells to the halls of Washington, D.C. You'll come away from this course
understanding why you can be confident your own vote will count - or why you should
reasonably be skeptical.

About the Instructor(s)
J. Alex Halderman is an assistant professor of computer science and engineering at the
University of Michigan. His research spans computer security and tech-centric public
policy, including topics such as software security, data privacy, electronic voting,
censorship resistance, and cybercrime, as well as technological aspects of intellectual
property law and government regulation. He holds a Ph.D. from Princeton University. 
A noted expert on electronic voting security, Prof. Halderman helped demonstrate the first
voting machine virus, participated in California's "top-to-bottom" electronic voting
review, and exposed election security flaws in India, the world's largest democracy. He
recently led a team from the University of Michigan that hacked into Washington D.C.'s
Internet voting system. In his spare time, he reprogrammed a touch-screen voting machine
to play Pac-Man 

Recommended Background
Most of this course will be accessible to non-technical students. We will provide optional
materials for those with some college-level computer science background.

--
James S. Tyre
Law Offices of James S. Tyre
10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512
Culver City, CA 90230-4969
310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
jstyre at jstyre.com
Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation
https://www.eff.org




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From nne75 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 12:58:17 2012
From: nne75 at yahoo.com (Nnenna)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 09:58:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [governance] Securing Digital Democracy
In-Reply-To: <00cc01cd8abd$375ce7e0$a616b7a0$@jstyre.com>
References: <00cc01cd8abd$375ce7e0$a616b7a0$@jstyre.com>
Message-ID: <1346777897.85430.YahooMailNeo@web130101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks for the info, James.  I just signed up for the course!

N

 


Nnenna  Nwakanma |  Founder and CEO, NNENNA.ORG  |  Consultants
Information | Communications | Technology and Events | for Development
Cote d'Ivoire (+225)| Tel: 225 27144 | Fax  224 26471 |Mob. 07416820
Ghana: +233 249561345| Nigeria: +234 8101887065| http://www.nnenna.org 
nnenna at nnenna.org| @nnenna | Skype - nnenna75 | nnennaorg.blogspot.com



________________________________
 From: James S. Tyre <jstyre at jstyre.com>
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org 
Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 4:49 PM
Subject: [governance] Securing Digital Democracy
 
This is a free online course by University of Michigan CS Prof Alex Halderman, an expert
in the field.  Officially it started yesterday, but one can register and start when one
wants.  I could be wrong (I often am), but I thought it might interest some here.

https://www.coursera.org/course/digitaldemocracy

Securing Digital Democracy
J. Alex Halderman
In this course, you'll learn what every citizen should know about the security risks--and
future potential - of electronic voting and Internet voting.

Sign Up


Watch intro video
Started on: 3 September 2012 (5 weeks long)
Workload: 2-3 hours/week 
Information, Technology, and Design
Computer Science: Systems, Security, Networking


About the Course
Computer technology has transformed how we participate in democracy. The way we cast our
votes, the way our votes are counted, and the way we choose who will lead are increasingly
controlled by invisible computer software. Most U.S. states have adopted electronic
voting, and countries around the world are starting to collect votes over the Internet.
However, computerized voting raises startling security risks that are only beginning to be
understood outside the research lab, from voting machine viruses that can silently change
votes to the possibility that hackers in foreign countries could steal an election. This
course will provide the technical background and public policy foundation that 21st
century citizens need to understand the electronic voting debate. You'll learn how
electronic voting and Internet voting technologies work, why they're being introduced, and
what problems they aim to solve. You'll also learn about the computer- and
Internet-security risks these systems face and the serious vulnerabilities that recent
research has demonstrated. We'll cover widely used safeguards, checks, and balances - and
why they are often inadequate. Finally, we'll see how computer technology has the
potential to improve election security, if it's applied intelligently. Along the way,
you'll hear stories from the lab and from the trenches on a journey that leads from Mumbai
jail cells to the halls of Washington, D.C. You'll come away from this course
understanding why you can be confident your own vote will count - or why you should
reasonably be skeptical.

About the Instructor(s)
J. Alex Halderman is an assistant professor of computer science and engineering at the
University of Michigan. His research spans computer security and tech-centric public
policy, including topics such as software security, data privacy, electronic voting,
censorship resistance, and cybercrime, as well as technological aspects of intellectual
property law and government regulation. He holds a Ph.D. from Princeton University. 
A noted expert on electronic voting security, Prof. Halderman helped demonstrate the first
voting machine virus, participated in California's "top-to-bottom" electronic voting
review, and exposed election security flaws in India, the world's largest democracy. He
recently led a team from the University of Michigan that hacked into Washington D.C.'s
Internet voting system. In his spare time, he reprogrammed a touch-screen voting machine
to play Pac-Man 

Recommended Background
Most of this course will be accessible to non-technical students. We will provide optional
materials for those with some college-level computer science background.

--
James S. Tyre
Law Offices of James S. Tyre
10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512
Culver City, CA 90230-4969
310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
jstyre at jstyre.com
Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation
https://www.eff.org





____________________________________________________________
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From cveraq at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 13:15:32 2012
From: cveraq at gmail.com (Carlos Vera Quintana)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 12:15:32 -0500
Subject: [governance] Securing Digital Democracy
In-Reply-To: <1346777897.85430.YahooMailNeo@web130101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <00cc01cd8abd$375ce7e0$a616b7a0$@jstyre.com> <1346777897.85430.YahooMailNeo@web130101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1DB3FD59-B9B3-4397-81C3-A9891DC28E50@gmail.com>

+1 excelent!

Carlos

Enviado desde mi iPhone

El 04/09/2012, a las 11:58, Nnenna <nne75 at yahoo.com> escribió:

> Thanks for the info, James.  I just signed up for the course!
> 
> N
>  
> 
> 
> Nnenna  Nwakanma |  Founder and CEO, NNENNA.ORG  |  Consultants
> Information | Communications | Technology and Events | for Development
> Cote d'Ivoire (+225)| Tel: 225 27144 | Fax  224 26471 |Mob. 07416820
> Ghana: +233 249561345| Nigeria: +234 8101887065| http://www.nnenna.org 
> nnenna at nnenna.org| @nnenna | Skype - nnenna75 | nnennaorg.blogspot.com
> 
> From: James S. Tyre <jstyre at jstyre.com>
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 4:49 PM
> Subject: [governance] Securing Digital Democracy
> 
> This is a free online course by University of Michigan CS Prof Alex Halderman, an expert
> in the field.  Officially it started yesterday, but one can register and start when one
> wants.  I could be wrong (I often am), but I thought it might interest some here.
> 
> https://www.coursera.org/course/digitaldemocracy
> 
> Securing Digital Democracy
> J. Alex Halderman
> In this course, you'll learn what every citizen should know about the security risks--and
> future potential - of electronic voting and Internet voting.
> 
> Sign Up
> 
> 
> Watch intro video
> Started on: 3 September 2012 (5 weeks long)
> Workload: 2-3 hours/week 
> Information, Technology, and Design
> Computer Science: Systems, Security, Networking
> 
> 
> About the Course
> Computer technology has transformed how we participate in democracy. The way we cast our
> votes, the way our votes are counted, and the way we choose who will lead are increasingly
> controlled by invisible computer software. Most U.S. states have adopted electronic
> voting, and countries around the world are starting to collect votes over the Internet.
> However, computerized voting raises startling security risks that are only beginning to be
> understood outside the research lab, from voting machine viruses that can silently change
> votes to the possibility that hackers in foreign countries could steal an election. This
> course will provide the technical background and public policy foundation that 21st
> century citizens need to understand the electronic voting debate. You'll learn how
> electronic voting and Internet voting technologies work, why they're being introduced, and
> what problems they aim to solve. You'll also learn about the computer- and
> Internet-security risks these systems face and the serious vulnerabilities that recent
> research has demonstrated. We'll cover widely used safeguards, checks, and balances - and
> why they are often inadequate. Finally, we'll see how computer technology has the
> potential to improve election security, if it's applied intelligently. Along the way,
> you'll hear stories from the lab and from the trenches on a journey that leads from Mumbai
> jail cells to the halls of Washington, D.C. You'll come away from this course
> understanding why you can be confident your own vote will count - or why you should
> reasonably be skeptical.
> 
> About the Instructor(s)
> J. Alex Halderman is an assistant professor of computer science and engineering at the
> University of Michigan. His research spans computer security and tech-centric public
> policy, including topics such as software security, data privacy, electronic voting,
> censorship resistance, and cybercrime, as well as technological aspects of intellectual
> property law and government regulation. He holds a Ph.D. from Princeton University. 
> A noted expert on electronic voting security, Prof. Halderman helped demonstrate the first
> voting machine virus, participated in California's "top-to-bottom" electronic voting
> review, and exposed election security flaws in India, the world's largest democracy. He
> recently led a team from the University of Michigan that hacked into Washington D.C.'s
> Internet voting system. In his spare time, he reprogrammed a touch-screen voting machine
> to play Pac-Man 
> 
> Recommended Background
> Most of this course will be accessible to non-technical students. We will provide optional
> materials for those with some college-level computer science background.
> 
> --
> James S. Tyre
> Law Offices of James S. Tyre
> 10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512
> Culver City, CA 90230-4969
> 310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
> jstyre at jstyre.com
> Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation
> https://www.eff.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
> 
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
> 
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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> To be removed from the list, visit:
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> 
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From ca at cafonso.ca  Tue Sep  4 13:42:36 2012
From: ca at cafonso.ca (Carlos A. Afonso)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 14:42:36 -0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN's legal status
In-Reply-To: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD2E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
References: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD2E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <50463D8C.3000208@cafonso.ca>

On 09/04/2012 01:19 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
> 
> 
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Dominique
> Lacroix Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 10:13 AM To:
> governance at lists.igcaucus.org Subject: Re: [governance] Big Porn v.
> Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
[...]
> 
> MM: It is a California "nonprofit public benefit" corporation" (or at
> least, it is pretending to be one, until such time as it really
> pisses someone off and they challenge its nonprofit status).
>

Hmmm... like now, in which a non-profit gets hundreds of millions in
fees from the sale (should we use a different word?) at absolutely
arbitrary prices of mnemonics to blocks of Internet addresses?

--c.a.

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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 13:48:17 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 19:48:17 +0200
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxpP1s6YfZHytZSJ_RXLFqJv8eApyShCptkiOe0223XcNA@mail.gmail.com>

In Jordan, and in order to tighten up what the media publishes, the
government started with censoring the Internet, and then a couple of days
later they try to pass a law with the speed of light restricting the media
from publishing flaws of the government, or writing negatively about the
ruling family of Jordan.

It was obvious for many of us that Internet censorship was the first
building block of regulating media freedom of expression online.

Fahd

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:45 PM, Oksana Prykhodko <sana.pryhod at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I would like to add new food to our old discussion about propriety to hold
> international events in non-democratic countries.
>
> Kiev just now is hosting World Newspaper Congress, with participation of
> the most influential editors and journalists from the whole world.
>
> Yesterday Jacob Mathew, President of the World Association of Newspapers
> and News Publishers (WAN-IFRA), gave excellent analysis of media situation
> in Ukraine, underlined main threats to media freedom. Then Ukrainian
> president Victor Yanulovich gave his interpretation of the same situation,
> stating, that there are no problems for the freedom of speech in Ukraine.
> During his speech 12 Ukrainian journalists and media activists (I was among
> them) stood up with critical banners. And were brutally attacked by
> Yanukovich securities.
>
> It was excellent illustration to his words, and received world-wide
> coverage (except of Ukrainian TV channels).
>
> Today 14 the most influential editors met Yanukovich and demanded to
> investigate this incident and not to persecute protesters.
>
> I really highly appreciate support of WAN-IFRA and all lessons, that it
> gave to Ukraine. And I hope that IGF in Baku will be also of great use to
> Azeris.
>
> Best regards,
> Oksana
>
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/09/03/world/europe/03reuters-ukraine-journalists-protest.html?_r=2&ref=politics
>
> http://www.wan-ifra.org/articles/2012/09/06/press-freedom-an-own-goal-for-ukraine
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
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From nyangkweagien at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 14:23:25 2012
From: nyangkweagien at gmail.com (Nyangkwe Agien Aaron)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 20:23:25 +0200
Subject: [governance] Securing Digital Democracy
In-Reply-To: <1DB3FD59-B9B3-4397-81C3-A9891DC28E50@gmail.com>
References: <00cc01cd8abd$375ce7e0$a616b7a0$@jstyre.com>
	<1346777897.85430.YahooMailNeo@web130101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1DB3FD59-B9B3-4397-81C3-A9891DC28E50@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM29qGZJhtz3vsw1jxMhiuH+=XtFx0Tw=KAeJwVLjg=5hLBw+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Many thanks Jim

I just registered


Aaron

On 9/4/12, Carlos Vera Quintana <cveraq at gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 excelent!
>
> Carlos
>
> Enviado desde mi iPhone
>
> El 04/09/2012, a las 11:58, Nnenna <nne75 at yahoo.com> escribió:
>
>> Thanks for the info, James.  I just signed up for the course!
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>> Nnenna  Nwakanma |  Founder and CEO, NNENNA.ORG  |  Consultants
>> Information | Communications | Technology and Events | for Development
>> Cote d'Ivoire (+225)| Tel: 225 27144 | Fax  224 26471 |Mob. 07416820
>> Ghana: +233 249561345| Nigeria: +234 8101887065| http://www.nnenna.org
>> nnenna at nnenna.org| @nnenna | Skype - nnenna75 | nnennaorg.blogspot.com
>>
>> From: James S. Tyre <jstyre at jstyre.com>
>> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 4:49 PM
>> Subject: [governance] Securing Digital Democracy
>>
>> This is a free online course by University of Michigan CS Prof Alex
>> Halderman, an expert
>> in the field.  Officially it started yesterday, but one can register and
>> start when one
>> wants.  I could be wrong (I often am), but I thought it might interest
>> some here.
>>
>> https://www.coursera.org/course/digitaldemocracy
>>
>> Securing Digital Democracy
>> J. Alex Halderman
>> In this course, you'll learn what every citizen should know about the
>> security risks--and
>> future potential - of electronic voting and Internet voting.
>>
>> Sign Up
>>
>>
>> Watch intro video
>> Started on: 3 September 2012 (5 weeks long)
>> Workload: 2-3 hours/week
>> Information, Technology, and Design
>> Computer Science: Systems, Security, Networking
>>
>>
>> About the Course
>> Computer technology has transformed how we participate in democracy. The
>> way we cast our
>> votes, the way our votes are counted, and the way we choose who will lead
>> are increasingly
>> controlled by invisible computer software. Most U.S. states have adopted
>> electronic
>> voting, and countries around the world are starting to collect votes over
>> the Internet.
>> However, computerized voting raises startling security risks that are only
>> beginning to be
>> understood outside the research lab, from voting machine viruses that can
>> silently change
>> votes to the possibility that hackers in foreign countries could steal an
>> election. This
>> course will provide the technical background and public policy foundation
>> that 21st
>> century citizens need to understand the electronic voting debate. You'll
>> learn how
>> electronic voting and Internet voting technologies work, why they're being
>> introduced, and
>> what problems they aim to solve. You'll also learn about the computer-
>> and
>> Internet-security risks these systems face and the serious vulnerabilities
>> that recent
>> research has demonstrated. We'll cover widely used safeguards, checks, and
>> balances - and
>> why they are often inadequate. Finally, we'll see how computer technology
>> has the
>> potential to improve election security, if it's applied intelligently.
>> Along the way,
>> you'll hear stories from the lab and from the trenches on a journey that
>> leads from Mumbai
>> jail cells to the halls of Washington, D.C. You'll come away from this
>> course
>> understanding why you can be confident your own vote will count - or why
>> you should
>> reasonably be skeptical.
>>
>> About the Instructor(s)
>> J. Alex Halderman is an assistant professor of computer science and
>> engineering at the
>> University of Michigan. His research spans computer security and
>> tech-centric public
>> policy, including topics such as software security, data privacy,
>> electronic voting,
>> censorship resistance, and cybercrime, as well as technological aspects of
>> intellectual
>> property law and government regulation. He holds a Ph.D. from Princeton
>> University.
>> A noted expert on electronic voting security, Prof. Halderman helped
>> demonstrate the first
>> voting machine virus, participated in California's "top-to-bottom"
>> electronic voting
>> review, and exposed election security flaws in India, the world's largest
>> democracy. He
>> recently led a team from the University of Michigan that hacked into
>> Washington D.C.'s
>> Internet voting system. In his spare time, he reprogrammed a touch-screen
>> voting machine
>> to play Pac-Man
>>
>> Recommended Background
>> Most of this course will be accessible to non-technical students. We will
>> provide optional
>> materials for those with some college-level computer science background.
>>
>> --
>> James S. Tyre
>> Law Offices of James S. Tyre
>> 10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512
>> Culver City, CA 90230-4969
>> 310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
>> jstyre at jstyre.com
>> Policy Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation
>> https://www.eff.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>


-- 
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon
Telephone +237 73 42 71 27

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From pouzin at well.com  Tue Sep  4 14:59:46 2012
From: pouzin at well.com (Louis Pouzin (well))
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 20:59:46 +0200
Subject: [governance] ICANN's legal status
In-Reply-To: <50463D8C.3000208@cafonso.ca>
References: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD2E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <50463D8C.3000208@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <CA+EjHYqgEsZt=dC_o66F3Lh_rR1=J7YsNfBwFAuYbQ1APc3udQ@mail.gmail.com>

per http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/*racket*<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racket>

which definition would best match ICANN activities ?

1. a loud noise or clamor, especially of a disturbing or confusing kind;
din; uproar:
2. social excitement, gaiety, or dissipation.
3. an organized illegal activity, such as bootlegging or the extortion of
money from legitimate business people by threat or violence.
4. a dishonest scheme, trick, business, activity, etc.: the latest
weight-reducing racket.

Louis
- - -

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:

> Hmmm... like now, in which a non-profit gets hundreds of millions in fees
> from the sale (should we use a different word?) at absolutely arbitrary
> prices of mnemonics to blocks of Internet addresses?
>
> --c.a.
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Tue Sep  4 15:30:09 2012
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 20:30:09 +0100
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD63@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD63@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <b5avs7XBblRQFAyU@internetpolicyagency.com>

In message 
<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD63 at SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>, at 
16:21:01 on Tue, 4 Sep 2012, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu> writes
>
>Surely we all know that ICANN has been in this hornet's nest since at 
>least 2004, when .xxx was first mooted.

The current new-gTLD process was conceived as a way to "never have to 
repeat" the problems ICANN encountered with one-off applications such as 
.xxx according to then chair Vint Cerf.
-- 
Roland Perry

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From vanda at uol.com.br  Tue Sep  4 15:31:40 2012
From: vanda at uol.com.br (Vanda UOL)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 16:31:40 -0300
Subject: RES: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <5045ACF1.3050500@cavebear.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com> <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com> <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com> <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com> <CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com> <5045ACF1.3050500@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <018701cd8ad3$ed103f90$c730beb0$@uol.com.br>

Karl, very clear thoughts!
 At my time in the board  I have learned a lot about California Legal
System, and dedicate lots of time to understand each decision clearly and
act accordingly. Even not belonging to the culture of "direct question" I
believe I left the impression among my pairs that I would not accept
anything  without a clear explanation. 
Be Board member is not an easy task and sure adds lots of possible
liability, but the task itself, even in our time, without any compensation (
that I consider a better choice), worth the experience!
Best,  
-----Mensagem original-----
De: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
[mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] Em nome de Karl Auerbach
Enviada em: terça-feira, 4 de setembro de 2012 04:26
Para: Chaitanya Dhareshwar
Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
Assunto: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

On 09/03/2012 07:19 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar wrote:

> No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?
>  
> There's QUITE some detail in your diary Karl. I understand how this 
> gives the public information - but how does this become insurance? 
> Could you elaborate please?

That is an extremely complex question and it is affected by laws that vary
from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.  I can only begin to touch the surface in
an email.

Let me begin by reflecting that ICANN obtains it legal existence from the
laws of the State of California under a provision pertaining to
non-profit/public-benefit corporations.  (There are many kinds of
corporations and many kinds of non-profits, so the public-benefit part is
important.)

California isn't particularly unique in its laws - it, like much of the
world, is a blend of Civil Law and Common Law concepts diluted by a lot of
modern thought and pragmatic experience.  As such one will tend to find that
what is true in California will often have counterparts in the laws of other
places.  As a result I tend to be mildly amused by those who argue that
ICANN should be moved elsewhere - my amusement comes from my thought that
"the corporations laws of all those other places are probably more similar
to those of California than they are different".

The USA is also a federal system in which power is divided between the
national level and the state level.  As such ICANN also has status under the
national tax law as a "501(c)(3)" which means that it gets an exemption from
taxation because of charitable of scientific purposes.

It is important to distinguish between those two things.

With regard to the US national, 501(c)(3) status there is a thing called
"intermediate sanctions" which occurs when a body of that status pays an
"excess benefit" to a closely related party.  Generally that means paying
above fair market value to someone who is a director, officer, founder, or
in some other way exercises a strong level of control.  That sanction is
cast as a 200% tax and insurance policies tend not to insure against the
risk of taxation.  This law was intended to be draconian.
Since those intermediate sanctions can fall directly onto the personal
assets of corporate directors there is a possibility that ICANN's insurance
for directors may not provide protection.  (The situation gets even more
complicated when directors are compensated - one can drown in the details of
this stuff.  Suffice it to say that prudence suggests that one should try to
avoid getting anywhere near entangled by this stuff.

The point about the diary is more at the level of state law.  Typical
corporate law imposes very heavy duties on corporate directors - the word is
"fiduciary duty".  It is a very, very heavy burden and contains a large
amount of risk to a director's personal assets.  It is also an extremely
complicated duty.  For example, as a California public benefit corporation
ICANN's directors are obligated to consider the impact upon the public well
being when evaluating whether a proposed action is in the best interest of
the corporation or not.  Many directors do not understand this and consider
only the best interest of the public benefit corporation without recognizing
the need to incorporate the effect upon the public.

Because of the difficult and potentially draconian nature of fiduciary
responsibilities there is an escape valve built into most corporation laws -
which is the idea that directors are allowed some flexibility as long as
they act in certain ways.

One of those ways is that a corporate director obtains a degree of
protection if he/she can demonstrate that he is making an informed,
reasonable decision in the context of a business purpose.  The rule allows a
director to make a mistake and yet avoid liability for that mistake - It's a
rather sensible idea, otherwise no one would risk taking on the role of a
director.

So my diary was intended to demonstrate that when I was making a choice that
I had tried to become informed, that I tried to evaluate the alternatives,
and that the decision was being made in the context of the purpose of the
business.

That point about being "informed" is more tricky than one might think ...
being on ICANN's board requires an enormous amount of work just to keep up,
and much more to understand, and even more to really comprehend the
competing issues.  Any person who considers the role should recognize that
it is more than a full-time job.

Becoming informed is hard - that is why when I was on the board I'd ask many
questions, often to the point of annoying those who wanted to move ahead.

But I discovered that some disputes coming before ICANN were really not
disputes at all, but rather were people who were talking past one another
using different words.  Asking questions tends to reveal when their are real
differences or merely much more easily correct mis-understandings.  There
are plenty of real and hard issues in internet governance, so it is nice to
be able to find the easy ones by asking some questions.

And the diary was also meant to be a two-way street - by exposing my thought
processes others could see where I had gone awry and could try to change my
point of view.

I found that very valuable - there is nothing like disagreement to cause two
people to explain themselves to one another.  ;-)

This is an area in which internet governance is weak - We Americans tend to
feel comfortable with a rough-and-tumble dialog - an argument - as a means
to illuminate and comprehend issues.  Other cultures work through less
confrontational means.

Both methods are correct, neither method is wrong.  I found, however, that
there is not enough accommodation by those who use one of these methods for
those who use the other.  As an American I found myself often upbraided
(often rather subtly) for being very direct in my questions and words.  And
as an American I often found it difficult to comprehend how I was to learn
enough about issues if I did not ask direct questions and used, instead,
indirect means.

	--karl--






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From apisan at unam.mx  Tue Sep  4 15:35:21 2012
From: apisan at unam.mx (Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 19:35:21 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD63@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>,<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD63@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DC29C@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>

Milton,

many of us do, but does everybody know of your role in bringing .xxx back to business?

Alejandro Pisanty


! !! !!! !!!!
NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO



+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD

+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO

SMS +525541444475
     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico

Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

________________________________
Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de Milton L Mueller [mueller at syr.edu]
Enviado el: martes, 04 de septiembre de 2012 11:21
Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; 'Louis Pouzin (well)'
Asunto: RE: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

Surely we all know that ICANN has been in this hornet's nest since at least 2004, when .xxx was first mooted.


From: pouzin at gmail.com [mailto:pouzin at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Louis Pouzin (well)
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 1:40 PM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/internet/Domain-names-spark-dispute-among-religious-groups/articleshow/16130800.cms

Today, more than 6600 complaints for 1931 gTLD applications

https://gtldcomment.icann.org/comments-feedback/applicationcomment/viewcomments

Let's put up a $185K award for the last one !

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From mueller at syr.edu  Tue Sep  4 15:50:07 2012
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 19:50:07 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DC29C@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>,<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD63@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
 <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DC29C@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
Message-ID: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CF33@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>

If they don't, I will proudly tell them that I was an expert witness in the first-ever ICANN Independent Review Process. Along with half a dozen other witnesses, I helped to prove to an independent international tribunal that ICANN had been unduly influenced by the U.S. Commerce Department to reject the .xxx domain and that its rejection of the domain was arbitrary, unfair, discriminatory and did not follow its own stated criteria for approving domains.

Relevant documents can be found here: http://www.icann.org/en/news/irp/icm-v-icann

I was too modest to point this out myself, but I know I can always count on Alejandro to toot my horn. ;-)

From: Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch [mailto:apisan at unam.mx]

but does everybody know of your role in bringing .xxx back to business?

Alejandro Pisanty

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From drc at virtualized.org  Tue Sep  4 15:51:58 2012
From: drc at virtualized.org (David Conrad)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 12:51:58 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN's legal status
In-Reply-To: <50463D8C.3000208@cafonso.ca>
References: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD2E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <50463D8C.3000208@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <16A6E29C-EB94-4250-994E-578E1E48BD84@virtualized.org>

Carlos,

On Sep 4, 2012, at 10:42 AM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:
>> MM: It is a California "nonprofit public benefit" corporation" (or at
>> least, it is pretending to be one, until such time as it really
>> pisses someone off and they challenge its nonprofit status).
> Hmmm... like now, in which a non-profit gets hundreds of millions in
> fees from the sale (should we use a different word?) at absolutely
> arbitrary prices of mnemonics to blocks of Internet addresses?

"Non-profit" does not mean "can't engage in commerce".

Given the likelihood of lawsuits, I suspect the "hundreds of millions in fees" will not add up to much in the way of profits (well, for anyone but the lawyers)...

Regards,
-drc


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From vanda at uol.com.br  Tue Sep  4 15:54:25 2012
From: vanda at uol.com.br (Vanda UOL)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 16:54:25 -0300
Subject: RES: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01a701cd8ad7$1724c5a0$456e50e0$@uol.com.br>

Just a thought: if the media went there may they believe, as I also do, that learn about freedom needs experience, examples and lots of talk. These events may be the best opportunity these countries need to go one step forward into real freedom. 

-----Mensagem original-----
De: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] Em nome de Oksana Prykhodko
Enviada em: terça-feira, 4 de setembro de 2012 13:46
Para: IG Caucus
Assunto: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries

Dear all,

I would like to add new food to our old discussion about propriety to hold international events in non-democratic countries.

Kiev just now is hosting World Newspaper Congress, with participation of the most influential editors and journalists from the whole world.

Yesterday Jacob Mathew, President of the World Association of Newspapers and News Publishers (WAN-IFRA), gave excellent analysis of media situation in Ukraine, underlined main threats to media freedom.
Then Ukrainian president Victor Yanulovich gave his interpretation of the same situation, stating, that there are no problems for the freedom of speech in Ukraine.
During his speech 12 Ukrainian journalists and media activists (I was among them) stood up with critical banners. And were brutally attacked by Yanukovich securities.

It was excellent illustration to his words, and received world-wide coverage (except of Ukrainian TV channels).

Today 14 the most influential editors met Yanukovich and demanded to investigate this incident and not to persecute protesters.

I really highly appreciate support of WAN-IFRA and all lessons, that it gave to Ukraine. And I hope that IGF in Baku will be also of great use to Azeris.

Best regards,
Oksana

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/09/03/world/europe/03reuters-ukraine-journalists-protest.html?_r=2&ref=politics
http://www.wan-ifra.org/articles/2012/09/06/press-freedom-an-own-goal-for-ukraine



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From mueller at syr.edu  Tue Sep  4 16:13:46 2012
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 20:13:46 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAFabd1KP_LpqHR6=hbULQCnNKP6jBD9rBEBZgbi+YQG-k6_16g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
	<CABBOhxqug5vXkcMdjKzCLvauipzyGrZ1JkOJ7tto6puR0H0Ybw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiBW7K4i4Aan+wOGoNrjAsdDZDM0X50qQg4AYSpUPa0-Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFabd1KP_LpqHR6=hbULQCnNKP6jBD9rBEBZgbi+YQG-k6_16g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CF9C@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>

Adam,
The distractions associated with running a members election are miniscule compared to the vast amount of money ICANN spent, and spends, on the At Large Advisory Committee. And don't forget the substantial amount of time, money and energy that is dumped into At Large by volunteers in the Regional At Large Organizations (RALOs). The ALAC and RALOs are jokes, with mostly dead mailing lists dominated in discussion by a handful of people, perhaps a dozen at most. There are some very good individuals in ALAC and in RALOs, who contribute greatly to policy making and to ICANN, but their participation could just as easily be channeled into ICANN the way the GNSO does it, through working groups.  

What At Large is NOT is an accountability mechanism - which is what the whole ICANN members/voting system was supposed to be. When creating ICANN, everyone involved (except, of course, for the people who were helicoptered onto the interim Board) thought it was absolutely crazy to create a powerful global institution without a membership to which the organization could be held accountable. 

If you look at California public benefit corporation law, it is all about how these corporations should be held accountable to their members. The current form of At Large was devised as an ESCAPE from that. 

The idea that At large is a form of global participation and (more importantly) global accountability is just not defensible; many of the people in ALAC, far from holding the Board accountable, are trying very hard to get onto the board and are very interested in ingratiating themselves to the Board and to GAC. Their incentives are to rise up the organizational ladder, not to keep ICANN accountable.

The point about voting is that it gives each individual the right to express _their own_ preference, and it makes that preference count, in the aggregate, in a very clearly measured way. The organizational pyramid that Alejandro helped to create, in contrast, pretends that 3 people represent an entire world region - and one of those people is not even selected by people in that region, but by a Nominating Committee which the ALAC itself selects! 

Alejandro's contrast of the admitted but fixable flaws of an election does not include any real analysis of the very obvious and fundamentally unfixable flaws in an organizational pyramid scheme that is the At Large. 

--MM


> -----Original Message-----
> From: apeake at gmail.com [mailto:apeake at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Adam
> Peake
> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 2:40 AM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> Subject: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
> 
> Anyone interested in some history of the at large election might look here:
> 
> A one page summary
> <http://web.archive.org/web/20030627132419/http://www.naisproject.org/
> report/final/010907abstract.shtml>
> 
> and reports:
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20030621172016/http://www.naisproject.org/r
> eport/final/execsummaryA4.pdf
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20030621172016/http://www.naisproject.org/r
> eport/final/naisreportUSLetter.pdf
> 
> At the time, I thought the problems were fixable and ICANN should have
> tried a second round, a lot of the problems would not have been hard
> to fix.  Now I'm much less sure, I think an annual election would be a
> massive distraction for the organization and volunteers who already
> have too little time.  But should not be discounted.  A new study as a
> new ATRT round starts might be useful.
> 
> Adam


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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 16:31:34 2012
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 01:31:34 +0500
Subject: [governance] ICANN's legal status
In-Reply-To: <CA+EjHYqgEsZt=dC_o66F3Lh_rR1=J7YsNfBwFAuYbQ1APc3udQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD2E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<50463D8C.3000208@cafonso.ca>
	<CA+EjHYqgEsZt=dC_o66F3Lh_rR1=J7YsNfBwFAuYbQ1APc3udQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHuaJtPfQ9x8pQ2zz0V4yLRg07HF3Z5nsgiBXQycEis24j9Ovw@mail.gmail.com>

One thing I fail to understand is that rhetoric around the possibility
that if ICANN was and International body moved beyond US territory and
incorporation laws into an international treaty that it would become
immune to certain international laws? I tend to believe that whenever
any new political process evolves into an international treaty or
agreement it is bound to some kind of political instruments that are
constructed to benefit that particular international setting. I cannot
pick up WIPO processes and apply them directly to the Human Rights
Declaration but I can definitely identify a development agenda and
apply it in WIPO's existing processes to challenge and extract a new
set of insights and understanding that can positively affect
international development through influencing public policy of member
states.

I would agree to some extent that a majority of countries would like
to see some independent international body or structure to address
issues related to Internet and Public Policy but I would always defend
the 'and' in between Internet 'and' Public Policy. International
institution development or negotiation instruments can evolve into
policy but that cannot be directly taken as public policy, it can
influence public policy in stakeholder countries but itself cannot
stand as public policy and only complement it. Thats where I see ICANN
but since its incorporated in the US without a multilateral treaty, it
would be stand outside the scope of a recognized International Policy
setting. You may call it a 'defacto' industry evolved activity but
within International Treaty or Agreements, it simply does not exist
and I would not defend it.

I have developed a belief over time that we are dealing with the
politics of two different societies in terms of Internet Public Policy
or Internet Governance per se. I believe that the IG process would
have benefited from taking into account that there are two
multistakeholder-"isms" (very dissimilar) and must be tackled in a
very different light. I have always found Milton's and Parminder's
point of views to clearly show this dissimilarity and I have stopped
putting their arguments and disagreements as two contesting
ideologies. Its a dissimilarity of these isms and societies.

As for the sake of this discussion, these two schools of political
thought in terms of Internet Public Policy will remain side by side
whether we want to accept it or not. The two contexts will continue to
have their different understandings and struggles. ICANN's status will
be digestible to some and indigestible to most and there is no single
medicine that can change this point of views. Where will arguments go
if the origin of all political thought was the same?

fOO-da-bytes


On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:59 PM, Louis Pouzin (well) <pouzin at well.com> wrote:
> per http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racket
>
> which definition would best match ICANN activities ?
>
> 1. a loud noise or clamor, especially of a disturbing or confusing kind;
> din; uproar:
> 2. social excitement, gaiety, or dissipation.
> 3. an organized illegal activity, such as bootlegging or the extortion of
> money from legitimate business people by threat or violence.
> 4. a dishonest scheme, trick, business, activity, etc.: the latest
> weight-reducing racket.
>
> Louis
> - - -
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:
>>
>> Hmmm... like now, in which a non-profit gets hundreds of millions in fees
>> from the sale (should we use a different word?) at absolutely arbitrary
>> prices of mnemonics to blocks of Internet addresses?
>>
>> --c.a.
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
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>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 16:40:09 2012
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 01:40:09 +0500
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <01a701cd8ad7$1724c5a0$456e50e0$@uol.com.br>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a701cd8ad7$1724c5a0$456e50e0$@uol.com.br>
Message-ID: <CAHuaJtPxV+PZE-iZWesg8hwPb=4UgAuTLVk0oJuXiBzvfX5jsg@mail.gmail.com>

This school of thought that events that encourage and promote dialogue
on Freedom of Expression online should not happen in repressive
countries should be discouraged as such events can help in changing or
atleast challenging repression.

I have known people and groups to participate in the IGF and have a
dialogue on issues that would otherwise be very hard to carryout
outside the IGF setting.

We can be very critical to countries like Azerbaijan but we would not
want to prevent such countries from experiencing the trigger to
towards opportunities to change their thought even if it benefits only
a handful.

...FoO-da-bytes

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Vanda UOL <vanda at uol.com.br> wrote:
> Just a thought: if the media went there may they believe, as I also do, that learn about freedom needs experience, examples and lots of talk. These events may be the best opportunity these countries need to go one step forward into real freedom.
>
> -----Mensagem original-----
> De: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] Em nome de Oksana Prykhodko
> Enviada em: terça-feira, 4 de setembro de 2012 13:46
> Para: IG Caucus
> Assunto: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
>
> Dear all,
>
> I would like to add new food to our old discussion about propriety to hold international events in non-democratic countries.
>
> Kiev just now is hosting World Newspaper Congress, with participation of the most influential editors and journalists from the whole world.
>
> Yesterday Jacob Mathew, President of the World Association of Newspapers and News Publishers (WAN-IFRA), gave excellent analysis of media situation in Ukraine, underlined main threats to media freedom.
> Then Ukrainian president Victor Yanulovich gave his interpretation of the same situation, stating, that there are no problems for the freedom of speech in Ukraine.
> During his speech 12 Ukrainian journalists and media activists (I was among them) stood up with critical banners. And were brutally attacked by Yanukovich securities.
>
> It was excellent illustration to his words, and received world-wide coverage (except of Ukrainian TV channels).
>
> Today 14 the most influential editors met Yanukovich and demanded to investigate this incident and not to persecute protesters.
>
> I really highly appreciate support of WAN-IFRA and all lessons, that it gave to Ukraine. And I hope that IGF in Baku will be also of great use to Azeris.
>
> Best regards,
> Oksana
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/09/03/world/europe/03reuters-ukraine-journalists-protest.html?_r=2&ref=politics
> http://www.wan-ifra.org/articles/2012/09/06/press-freedom-an-own-goal-for-ukraine
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
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>



--

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From sana.pryhod at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 16:40:27 2012
From: sana.pryhod at gmail.com (Oksana Prykhodko)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 23:40:27 +0300
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <01a701cd8ad7$1724c5a0$456e50e0$@uol.com.br>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a701cd8ad7$1724c5a0$456e50e0$@uol.com.br>
Message-ID: <CA+C8XCLy09ysJi9VEVe8wnN1PYghnrmOCYRR9oe8CisxFLg2LQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you, Milton, I am OK. I even received recognition for my deadly
weapon - earsplitting shriek)

2012/9/4 Vanda UOL <vanda at uol.com.br>:
> Just a thought: if the media went there may they believe, as I also do, that learn about freedom needs experience, examples and lots of talk. These events may be the best opportunity these countries need to go one step forward into real freedom.
>
> -----Mensagem original-----
> De: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] Em nome de Oksana Prykhodko
> Enviada em: terça-feira, 4 de setembro de 2012 13:46
> Para: IG Caucus
> Assunto: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
>
> Dear all,
>
> I would like to add new food to our old discussion about propriety to hold international events in non-democratic countries.
>
> Kiev just now is hosting World Newspaper Congress, with participation of the most influential editors and journalists from the whole world.
>
> Yesterday Jacob Mathew, President of the World Association of Newspapers and News Publishers (WAN-IFRA), gave excellent analysis of media situation in Ukraine, underlined main threats to media freedom.
> Then Ukrainian president Victor Yanulovich gave his interpretation of the same situation, stating, that there are no problems for the freedom of speech in Ukraine.
> During his speech 12 Ukrainian journalists and media activists (I was among them) stood up with critical banners. And were brutally attacked by Yanukovich securities.
>
> It was excellent illustration to his words, and received world-wide coverage (except of Ukrainian TV channels).
>
> Today 14 the most influential editors met Yanukovich and demanded to investigate this incident and not to persecute protesters.
>
> I really highly appreciate support of WAN-IFRA and all lessons, that it gave to Ukraine. And I hope that IGF in Baku will be also of great use to Azeris.
>
> Best regards,
> Oksana
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/09/03/world/europe/03reuters-ukraine-journalists-protest.html?_r=2&ref=politics
> http://www.wan-ifra.org/articles/2012/09/06/press-freedom-an-own-goal-for-ukraine
>
>

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From sana.pryhod at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 16:51:20 2012
From: sana.pryhod at gmail.com (Oksana Prykhodko)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 23:51:20 +0300
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <CAHuaJtPxV+PZE-iZWesg8hwPb=4UgAuTLVk0oJuXiBzvfX5jsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a701cd8ad7$1724c5a0$456e50e0$@uol.com.br>
	<CAHuaJtPxV+PZE-iZWesg8hwPb=4UgAuTLVk0oJuXiBzvfX5jsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+C8XCJTT=mpjHTYKhkk4oZp_Shw8VJ5ULHntOq0dGxYbYt2ng@mail.gmail.com>

Roni, exactly!

2012/9/4 Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>:
> This school of thought that events that encourage and promote dialogue
> on Freedom of Expression online should not happen in repressive
> countries should be discouraged as such events can help in changing or
> atleast challenging repression.
>
> I have known people and groups to participate in the IGF and have a
> dialogue on issues that would otherwise be very hard to carryout
> outside the IGF setting.
>
> We can be very critical to countries like Azerbaijan but we would not
> want to prevent such countries from experiencing the trigger to
> towards opportunities to change their thought even if it benefits only
> a handful.
>
> ...FoO-da-bytes
>
> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Vanda UOL <vanda at uol.com.br> wrote:
>> Just a thought: if the media went there may they believe, as I also do, that learn about freedom needs experience, examples and lots of talk. These events may be the best opportunity these countries need to go one step forward into real freedom.
>>
>> -----Mensagem original-----
>> De: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] Em nome de Oksana Prykhodko
>> Enviada em: terça-feira, 4 de setembro de 2012 13:46
>> Para: IG Caucus
>> Assunto: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I would like to add new food to our old discussion about propriety to hold international events in non-democratic countries.
>>
>> Kiev just now is hosting World Newspaper Congress, with participation of the most influential editors and journalists from the whole world.
>>
>> Yesterday Jacob Mathew, President of the World Association of Newspapers and News Publishers (WAN-IFRA), gave excellent analysis of media situation in Ukraine, underlined main threats to media freedom.
>> Then Ukrainian president Victor Yanulovich gave his interpretation of the same situation, stating, that there are no problems for the freedom of speech in Ukraine.
>> During his speech 12 Ukrainian journalists and media activists (I was among them) stood up with critical banners. And were brutally attacked by Yanukovich securities.
>>
>> It was excellent illustration to his words, and received world-wide coverage (except of Ukrainian TV channels).
>>
>> Today 14 the most influential editors met Yanukovich and demanded to investigate this incident and not to persecute protesters.
>>
>> I really highly appreciate support of WAN-IFRA and all lessons, that it gave to Ukraine. And I hope that IGF in Baku will be also of great use to Azeris.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Oksana
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/09/03/world/europe/03reuters-ukraine-journalists-protest.html?_r=2&ref=politics
>> http://www.wan-ifra.org/articles/2012/09/06/press-freedom-an-own-goal-for-ukraine
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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> To be removed from the list, visit:
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>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>

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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 17:11:37 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 09:11:37 +1200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CF9C@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
	<CABBOhxqug5vXkcMdjKzCLvauipzyGrZ1JkOJ7tto6puR0H0Ybw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiBW7K4i4Aan+wOGoNrjAsdDZDM0X50qQg4AYSpUPa0-Ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFabd1KP_LpqHR6=hbULQCnNKP6jBD9rBEBZgbi+YQG-k6_16g@mail.gmail.com>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CF9C@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiD5Mhp8FzNLsniAEF63t4pUOSUZrMYBME7ZAJG063O5fg@mail.gmail.com>

Disclosure:  I am a member of the ALAC by virtue of being elected within
the Asian Australasian Pacific Regional At Large Organisation to the ALAC.

I will respond as always in my individual capacity and not as an ALAC
member. I have always held the view that dialogue is important in
understanding perspectives.

Snip

 The ALAC and RALOs are jokes, with mostly dead mailing lists dominated in
discussion by a handful of people, perhaps a dozen at most.

I would say that the ALAC and RALOs are a mechanisms that enable
participation into policy processes in an organised manner. The like ALAC
like other Advisory Committees and Supporting Organisations continue to
work towards expanding their base to enable others to participate. As you
can imagine the Policy work within ICANN is mainly technical so building
capacity within At Large Structures its members is critical to enable
meaningful participation within these policy processes. I am also mindful
that aside from capacity there are regions around the world who also
struggle with internet connectivity (aside from cost - access there is also
avalabiity - access) and as such participation is challenging.

I would not call the ALAC and RALO jokes but I would say that there is
always room for improvement and expansion of a critical mass. I am open to
suggestions as I am also preparing a capacity building and outreach paper
to follow the one that I published on the Wiki after Dakar last year.

There are some very good individuals in ALAC and in RALOs, who contribute
greatly to policy making and to ICANN, but their participation could just
as easily be channeled into ICANN the way the GNSO does it, through working
groups.

I hear what you are saying but my views are that the fundamental difference
is that GNSO who have a stake in the pie. The ALAC are kind of like the
Levites or priests, they stand in representation of the people but don't
own land or have vested interests. If they do have vested interests then
they are duty bound to declare those interests. As people who do not have
vested interests but for volunteering to ensure that global public interest
is protected in the best way that they can, it is hard and extremely
challenging to get volunteers to engage in robust discussion on a wide
range of policy and administration matters consistently at an average of 5
hours per day and staying on calls at weird hours like 2am for some
consistently and to do this out of the spirit of volunteerism and in the
name of global public interest. To ridicule this effort is a choice but I
will differ with you on this and say that I stand in admiration of man,
woman and child who in the name of volunteerism have given up sleep, lost a
bit of comfort for the sake of the many. Yes, often times they will go
unappreciated, misunderstood but they are in it because they believe that
people can make a difference.

>
> What At Large is NOT is an accountability mechanism - which is what the
> whole ICANN members/voting system was supposed to be.


At Large in itself is not an accountability mechanism it is all of the
global community within ICANN that exists to add to the potpourri and
balance each other's voices. I know you would have looked at the Bylaws and
they are very clear in terms of the mechanisms available to make the system
accountable.


> When creating ICANN, everyone involved (except, of course, for the people
> who were helicoptered onto the interim Board) thought it was absolutely
> crazy to create a powerful global institution without a membership to which
> the organization could be held accountable.
>


>
>
> The idea that At large is a form of global participation and (more
> importantly) global accountability is just not defensible; many of the
> people in ALAC, far from holding the Board accountable, are trying very
> hard to get onto the board and are very interested in ingratiating
> themselves to the Board and to GAC. Their incentives are to rise up the
> organizational ladder, not to keep ICANN accountable.
>
I believe that the ALAC does its best to hold the Board accountable. As
members of the community, we liaise with all stakeholders within ICANN and
we may disagree on issues but that does not mean we can't leave shaking
hands.  I know no ALAC member whose incentive it is to rise up the
organisational ladder, in fact quite the contrary.



>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: apeake at gmail.com [mailto:apeake at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Adam
> > Peake
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 2:40 AM
> > To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> > Subject: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
> >
> > Anyone interested in some history of the at large election might look
> here:
> >
> > A one page summary
> > <http://web.archive.org/web/20030627132419/http://www.naisproject.org/
> > report/final/010907abstract.shtml>
> >
> > and reports:
> >
> > http://web.archive.org/web/20030621172016/http://www.naisproject.org/r
> > eport/final/execsummaryA4.pdf
> >
> > http://web.archive.org/web/20030621172016/http://www.naisproject.org/r
> > eport/final/naisreportUSLetter.pdf
> >
> > At the time, I thought the problems were fixable and ICANN should have
> > tried a second round, a lot of the problems would not have been hard
> > to fix.  Now I'm much less sure, I think an annual election would be a
> > massive distraction for the organization and volunteers who already
> > have too little time.  But should not be discounted.  A new study as a
> > new ATRT round starts might be useful.
> >
> > Adam
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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To be removed from the list, visit:
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 17:13:29 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 09:13:29 +1200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiD5Mhp8FzNLsniAEF63t4pUOSUZrMYBME7ZAJG063O5fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
	<CABBOhxqug5vXkcMdjKzCLvauipzyGrZ1JkOJ7tto6puR0H0Ybw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiBW7K4i4Aan+wOGoNrjAsdDZDM0X50qQg4AYSpUPa0-Ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFabd1KP_LpqHR6=hbULQCnNKP6jBD9rBEBZgbi+YQG-k6_16g@mail.gmail.com>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CF9C@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<CAJwbTiD5Mhp8FzNLsniAEF63t4pUOSUZrMYBME7ZAJG063O5fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiDWYTveY=JNfrCr88Y1jYqD7+vwx+fJfSzgmPnHfD0y1g@mail.gmail.com>

Please excuse the typos and grammatical errors,  " are a mechanisms" should
read "are mechanisms"....been up the entire night reviewing policy and
making submissions...yes ALAC work. ;)

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

> Disclosure:  I am a member of the ALAC by virtue of being elected within
> the Asian Australasian Pacific Regional At Large Organisation to the ALAC.
>
> I will respond as always in my individual capacity and not as an ALAC
> member. I have always held the view that dialogue is important in
> understanding perspectives.
>
> Snip
>
>
>  The ALAC and RALOs are jokes, with mostly dead mailing lists dominated in
> discussion by a handful of people, perhaps a dozen at most.
>
> I would say that the ALAC and RALOs are a mechanisms that enable
> participation into policy processes in an organised manner. The like ALAC
> like other Advisory Committees and Supporting Organisations continue to
> work towards expanding their base to enable others to participate. As you
> can imagine the Policy work within ICANN is mainly technical so building
> capacity within At Large Structures its members is critical to enable
> meaningful participation within these policy processes. I am also mindful
> that aside from capacity there are regions around the world who also
> struggle with internet connectivity (aside from cost - access there is also
> avalabiity - access) and as such participation is challenging.
>
> I would not call the ALAC and RALO jokes but I would say that there is
> always room for improvement and expansion of a critical mass. I am open to
> suggestions as I am also preparing a capacity building and outreach paper
> to follow the one that I published on the Wiki after Dakar last year.
>
> There are some very good individuals in ALAC and in RALOs, who contribute
> greatly to policy making and to ICANN, but their participation could just
> as easily be channeled into ICANN the way the GNSO does it, through working
> groups.
>
> I hear what you are saying but my views are that the fundamental
> difference is that GNSO who have a stake in the pie. The ALAC are kind of
> like the Levites or priests, they stand in representation of the people but
> don't own land or have vested interests. If they do have vested interests
> then they are duty bound to declare those interests. As people who do not
> have vested interests but for volunteering to ensure that global public
> interest is protected in the best way that they can, it is hard and
> extremely challenging to get volunteers to engage in robust discussion on a
> wide range of policy and administration matters consistently at an average
> of 5 hours per day and staying on calls at weird hours like 2am for some
> consistently and to do this out of the spirit of volunteerism and in the
> name of global public interest. To ridicule this effort is a choice but I
> will differ with you on this and say that I stand in admiration of man,
> woman and child who in the name of volunteerism have given up sleep, lost a
> bit of comfort for the sake of the many. Yes, often times they will go
> unappreciated, misunderstood but they are in it because they believe that
> people can make a difference.
>
>>
>> What At Large is NOT is an accountability mechanism - which is what the
>> whole ICANN members/voting system was supposed to be.
>
>
> At Large in itself is not an accountability mechanism it is all of the
> global community within ICANN that exists to add to the potpourri and
> balance each other's voices. I know you would have looked at the Bylaws and
> they are very clear in terms of the mechanisms available to make the system
> accountable.
>
>
>> When creating ICANN, everyone involved (except, of course, for the people
>> who were helicoptered onto the interim Board) thought it was absolutely
>> crazy to create a powerful global institution without a membership to which
>> the organization could be held accountable.
>>
>
>
>>
>>
>> The idea that At large is a form of global participation and (more
>> importantly) global accountability is just not defensible; many of the
>> people in ALAC, far from holding the Board accountable, are trying very
>> hard to get onto the board and are very interested in ingratiating
>> themselves to the Board and to GAC. Their incentives are to rise up the
>> organizational ladder, not to keep ICANN accountable.
>>
> I believe that the ALAC does its best to hold the Board accountable. As
> members of the community, we liaise with all stakeholders within ICANN and
> we may disagree on issues but that does not mean we can't leave shaking
> hands.  I know no ALAC member whose incentive it is to rise up the
> organisational ladder, in fact quite the contrary.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: apeake at gmail.com [mailto:apeake at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Adam
>> > Peake
>> > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 2:40 AM
>> > To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> > Subject: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
>> >
>> > Anyone interested in some history of the at large election might look
>> here:
>> >
>> > A one page summary
>> > <http://web.archive.org/web/20030627132419/http://www.naisproject.org/
>> > report/final/010907abstract.shtml>
>> >
>> > and reports:
>> >
>> > http://web.archive.org/web/20030621172016/http://www.naisproject.org/r
>> > eport/final/execsummaryA4.pdf
>> >
>> > http://web.archive.org/web/20030621172016/http://www.naisproject.org/r
>> > eport/final/naisreportUSLetter.pdf
>> >
>> > At the time, I thought the problems were fixable and ICANN should have
>> > tried a second round, a lot of the problems would not have been hard
>> > to fix.  Now I'm much less sure, I think an annual election would be a
>> > massive distraction for the organization and volunteers who already
>> > have too little time.  But should not be discounted.  A new study as a
>> > new ATRT round starts might be useful.
>> >
>> > Adam
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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To be removed from the list, visit:
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 17:23:19 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 09:23:19 +1200
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <CA+C8XCLy09ysJi9VEVe8wnN1PYghnrmOCYRR9oe8CisxFLg2LQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a701cd8ad7$1724c5a0$456e50e0$@uol.com.br>
	<CA+C8XCLy09ysJi9VEVe8wnN1PYghnrmOCYRR9oe8CisxFLg2LQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiDzKbXFD9oWMi8xBQ3vYBOsAyJv_Yu+n00hdG7P0YqjZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Oksana Prykhodko <sana.pryhod at gmail.com>wrote:

> Thank you, Milton, I am OK. I even received recognition for my deadly
> weapon - earsplitting shriek)
>
> lol @ ear splitting shriek. I agree with Vanda. I suppose it is a hard
decision to make and each context/situation differs and requires a
subjective assessment.

> 2012/9/4 Vanda UOL <vanda at uol.com.br>:
> > Just a thought: if the media went there may they believe, as I also do,
> that learn about freedom needs experience, examples and lots of talk. These
> events may be the best opportunity these countries need to go one step
> forward into real freedom.
> >
> > -----Mensagem original-----
> > De: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:
> governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] Em nome de Oksana Prykhodko
> > Enviada em: terça-feira, 4 de setembro de 2012 13:46
> > Para: IG Caucus
> > Assunto: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I would like to add new food to our old discussion about propriety to
> hold international events in non-democratic countries.
> >
> > Kiev just now is hosting World Newspaper Congress, with participation of
> the most influential editors and journalists from the whole world.
> >
> > Yesterday Jacob Mathew, President of the World Association of Newspapers
> and News Publishers (WAN-IFRA), gave excellent analysis of media situation
> in Ukraine, underlined main threats to media freedom.
> > Then Ukrainian president Victor Yanulovich gave his interpretation of
> the same situation, stating, that there are no problems for the freedom of
> speech in Ukraine.
> > During his speech 12 Ukrainian journalists and media activists (I was
> among them) stood up with critical banners. And were brutally attacked by
> Yanukovich securities.
> >
> > It was excellent illustration to his words, and received world-wide
> coverage (except of Ukrainian TV channels).
> >
> > Today 14 the most influential editors met Yanukovich and demanded to
> investigate this incident and not to persecute protesters.
> >
> > I really highly appreciate support of WAN-IFRA and all lessons, that it
> gave to Ukraine. And I hope that IGF in Baku will be also of great use to
> Azeris.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Oksana
> >
> >
> http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/09/03/world/europe/03reuters-ukraine-journalists-protest.html?_r=2&ref=politics
> >
> http://www.wan-ifra.org/articles/2012/09/06/press-freedom-an-own-goal-for-ukraine
> >
> >
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From apisan at unam.mx  Tue Sep  4 17:38:16 2012
From: apisan at unam.mx (Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 21:38:16 +0000
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CF9C@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
	<CABBOhxqug5vXkcMdjKzCLvauipzyGrZ1JkOJ7tto6puR0H0Ybw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiBW7K4i4Aan+wOGoNrjAsdDZDM0X50qQg4AYSpUPa0-Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFabd1KP_LpqHR6=hbULQCnNKP6jBD9rBEBZgbi+YQG-k6_16g@mail.gmail.com>,<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CF9C@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DC585@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>

Milton,

the trained eye discerns that you have not forgiven Internet users for deciding to go around your bully pulpit in the non-commercial constituency. How slow and hard it has been to create spaces deprived of the dominance of your insult and disqualification. 

One of the most interesting flaws in your argument is that the scheme of the At-Large election you espouse gives each region of the world only one seat in the Board, instead of three, and creates incentives for the easy hijack that was narrowly prevented in the At-Large election. 

The At-Large structures and processes were largely a design of Esther Dyson and are a work in progress. 

Another interesting fact that does not appear in your note is that the ICANN reform of 2003 (yes, friends, we have been taken to 2003) had very simple premises. One of them was to bring some responsibility to participation. Previous to that, anyone could disrupt the policy process by many games (politics of delay among others) without having to abide by the result. Talk about perverse incentives!!

Now it's only you who can do that.

Alejandro Pisanty

! !! !!! !!!!
NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO



+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD

+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO

SMS +525541444475
     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico

Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

________________________________________
Desde: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de Milton L Mueller [mueller at syr.edu]
Enviado el: martes, 04 de septiembre de 2012 15:13
Hasta: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; 'Adam Peake'
Asunto: RE: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

Adam,
The distractions associated with running a members election are miniscule compared to the vast amount of money ICANN spent, and spends, on the At Large Advisory Committee. And don't forget the substantial amount of time, money and energy that is dumped into At Large by volunteers in the Regional At Large Organizations (RALOs). The ALAC and RALOs are jokes, with mostly dead mailing lists dominated in discussion by a handful of people, perhaps a dozen at most. There are some very good individuals in ALAC and in RALOs, who contribute greatly to policy making and to ICANN, but their participation could just as easily be channeled into ICANN the way the GNSO does it, through working groups.

What At Large is NOT is an accountability mechanism - which is what the whole ICANN members/voting system was supposed to be. When creating ICANN, everyone involved (except, of course, for the people who were helicoptered onto the interim Board) thought it was absolutely crazy to create a powerful global institution without a membership to which the organization could be held accountable.

If you look at California public benefit corporation law, it is all about how these corporations should be held accountable to their members. The current form of At Large was devised as an ESCAPE from that.

The idea that At large is a form of global participation and (more importantly) global accountability is just not defensible; many of the people in ALAC, far from holding the Board accountable, are trying very hard to get onto the board and are very interested in ingratiating themselves to the Board and to GAC. Their incentives are to rise up the organizational ladder, not to keep ICANN accountable.

The point about voting is that it gives each individual the right to express _their own_ preference, and it makes that preference count, in the aggregate, in a very clearly measured way. The organizational pyramid that Alejandro helped to create, in contrast, pretends that 3 people represent an entire world region - and one of those people is not even selected by people in that region, but by a Nominating Committee which the ALAC itself selects!

Alejandro's contrast of the admitted but fixable flaws of an election does not include any real analysis of the very obvious and fundamentally unfixable flaws in an organizational pyramid scheme that is the At Large.

--MM


> -----Original Message-----
> From: apeake at gmail.com [mailto:apeake at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Adam
> Peake
> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 2:40 AM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> Subject: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
>
> Anyone interested in some history of the at large election might look here:
>
> A one page summary
> <http://web.archive.org/web/20030627132419/http://www.naisproject.org/
> report/final/010907abstract.shtml>
>
> and reports:
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20030621172016/http://www.naisproject.org/r
> eport/final/execsummaryA4.pdf
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20030621172016/http://www.naisproject.org/r
> eport/final/naisreportUSLetter.pdf
>
> At the time, I thought the problems were fixable and ICANN should have
> tried a second round, a lot of the problems would not have been hard
> to fix.  Now I'm much less sure, I think an annual election would be a
> massive distraction for the organization and volunteers who already
> have too little time.  But should not be discounted.  A new study as a
> new ATRT round starts might be useful.
>
> Adam



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From karl at cavebear.com  Tue Sep  4 18:14:20 2012
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 15:14:20 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CF9C@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com> <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com> <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com> <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com> <CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com> <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local> <CABBOhxqug5vXkcMdjKzCLvauipzyGrZ1JkOJ7tto6puR0H0Ybw@mail.gmail.com> <CAJwbTiBW7K4i4Aan+wOGoNrjAsdDZDM0X50qQg4AYSpUPa0-Ww@mail.gmail.com> <CAFabd1KP_LpqHR6=hbULQCnNKP6jBD9rBEBZgbi+YQG-k6_16g@mail.gmail.com> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CF9C@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <50467D3C.4090307@cavebear.com>

For economy I've addressed two emails in the comment below, one from 
mueller at syr.edu the other from salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com

On 09/04/2012 01:13 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:

> If you look at California public benefit corporation law, it is all
> about how these corporations should be held accountable to their
> members. The current form of At Large was devised as an ESCAPE from
> that.

Here is ICANN's own analysis.  I note that ICANN worked very hard to
escape the obligations of accountability and transparency that are
imposed by the California laws governing non-profit/public-benefit
corporations.

http://archive.icann.org/en/meetings/santiago/membership-analysis.htm

The exception to these obligations lays in the distinction between a 
membership organization and a non-membership organization with the key 
element being "elections".  Apart from the fact that ICANN rather 
transparently tried to escape - or evade - these obligations by 
characterizing the voting in year 2000 as a "selection" rather than as 
an "election" one might ask why does the law have this distinction?

Consider that there are public-benefit/non-profits such as performing 
arts groups.  Those often hew to the vision of a particular artist and 
it would not make sense to call those "membership" corporations.

ICANN, clearly, is not a performing arts corporation - although 
sometimes the meetings may take on that flavor.  ;-)

Perhaps an apt model for what ICANN seems to be trying to accomplish is 
found in a book by Jonathan Swift.  In that book Swift envisions an 
island floating in the air, independent of the earth, and populated by 
philosopher kings. (Pardon the crudity in some languages of the name 
that Swift chose.)

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laputa

--------

> salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com wrote:


> At Large in itself is not an accountability mechanism ...

I would substantially differ with that assessment.  If ICANN is not 
accountable to those for whose benefit it exists, i.e. the public 
community of internet users, then to whom is it accountable, and how?

As it currently stands the only person who clearly has the power to hold 
ICANN accountable is the Attorney General of California, Kamala Harris.

It strikes me that in these matters of internet governance that a body 
of governance should be subject to a clear, unambiguous, and viable 
chain of accountability to those for whose benefit that body exists.

I would recommend that you take a look at the accountability mechanisms 
that California does impose on California public-benefit/non-profits 
that, unlike ICANN, have not tried to use semantic handwaving to try to 
evade those obligations.  Here's the URL again to ICANN's own staff report:

http://archive.icann.org/en/meetings/santiago/membership-analysis.htm

I do not find these obligations unreasonable.  Nor are these obligations 
unique to California; many, perhaps most, places impose similar 
responsibilities upon those who claim special legal and taxation 
privileges and immunities (such as those that accrue to non-profit 
corporations).

	--karl--


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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 18:15:02 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:15:02 +0200
Subject: [governance] Jordan's Internet Goes Dark
Message-ID: <CABBOhxqhf02AG0FFp3KXTi0t4y=R_xLaVSgRVz3_K+jQm1rXhw@mail.gmail.com>

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/31/jordans_internet_goes_dark

With Internet Censorship, restricting freedom of expression on online
newspapers, and more recently (last week) increasing gas prices, it seems
that Jordan's current prime minister is counting down his days. He is the
worst prime minister Jordan has had for quite sometime now.

Fahd
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From vanda at uol.com.br  Tue Sep  4 18:25:36 2012
From: vanda at uol.com.br (Vanda UOL)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 19:25:36 -0300
Subject: RES: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>,<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com> <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
Message-ID: <01e201cd8aec$3b057220$b1105660$@uol.com.br>

Despite the personal value of Ivan - Brazil, which he really had, that
election was everything but a democratic election.   NomCom with its
representatives still the best alternative to choose members to  the
leadership positions inside ICANN.  All five at large representatives inside
NomCom, elected by their community, has voting mandate while other  Advisory
Committees inside ICANN has no vote. 

I also agree with Alejandro here that  ICANN did not find yet the best
solution for the at-large organization. I believe it is time to call for a
review  to set up a more balanced  bylaws for the regional representations. 

My 2 cents

Vanda

De: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
[mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] Em nome de Dr. Alejandro
Pisanty Baruch
Enviada em: terça-feira, 4 de setembro de 2012 02:41
Para: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Chaitanya Dhareshwar; Karl Auerbach
Cc: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
Assunto: RE: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

 

Chaitanya, all, 

 

1. the At-Large election procedure was deprecated because of its serious
flaws, which Karl unfortunately fails to mention. They break the most basic
principles of democratic election theory.

 

Elections are meant to split a given electorate among options (propositions,
parties, or individual candidates.) The At Large election fails to do that.
Instead, a candidate like Karl can bring in more voters than, say, the
former President of the University of Maryland - not more votes: more voters
- and the election result therefore is prescribed.

 

This is like when in older Mexico or in India a party can ferry voters in
trucks. 

 

Similarly, in the At-Large election Karl so unfairly romanticizes, arguments
like "it is time Germany gets its deserved place in governing the Internet"
were used by German-speaking media (not only in Germany but also in Austria)
and there you are, the European space is taken.

 

The same thing happened in Latin America. In every country there were
100-300 people interested in ICANN who took part in the election. "It is
time Brazil gets its deserved place in governing the Internet" was argued by
some entities in Brazil, including the ccTLD manager CGI Brazil (Internet
Steering Committee), and action was directed even to non-Brazilians. There
you get 2000 votes from Brazil. 

 

In most cases not a word was heard again from any of the voters so we can be
sure that the results were at best a flare-up. 

 

We substituted this supposedly ideal mechanism by a more complicated one but
which ensures at least some level of trust in who is participating and some
accountability and transparency. It hurts when you ask for accountability
and transparency from individuals or organizations which are used to asking
for it but not for providing it.

 

We continue to struggle to build the At-Large organizational space but are
light-years better than with the old "bring your electorate" (not win over
your fraction of the electorate) method. Add to that the NomCom, which
usually can look much further out, and the At-Large influence in the NomCom.
Count also the enormous contributions to deliver the At-Large views made by
Roberto Gaetano and Vittorio Bertola. 

 

2. Karl's lawsuit's victory in court had no more result for Karl than a
victory in court. He never found enough skeletons in the closets to avenge
the fact that the ICANN proponents defeated the Boston Working Group in the
bid for "Newco" as the concept-ICANN was known till the organization was
formed. I have a long-standing (albeit at times contentious) friendship with
Karl, I like a lot of what he does,have learned a lot from him, appreciate
his many interests beyond technology and politics (we had a delightful run
over the National Gallery in DC once, for example, and ask him about
rebuilding old locomotives), and have always been sad that he wasted the
opportunity to teach more and contribute more as a good engineer for trying
to outlawyer the lawyers. I still expect to see that Karl Auerbach's
contributions make a difference.

 

3. There is something called esprit de corps and/or duty of loyalty to the
organization. It is not in conflict with the duty of independence. There is
a slight generralization that some non-USians tend to decide for a balance
in favor of performing on both instead of privileging individual
independence. Your mileage may vary.

 

Maybe it was time for some in this group to find out that some histories are
not as one-sided and clear cut as they may seem. Apologies if I bored you
(Sala, Fahd, Riaz, Chaitanya, especially.)

 

Yours,

 

Alejandro Pisanty

   

! !! !!! !!!!

NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO

 

+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD 

+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO 

SMS +525541444475 
     Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico

Blog:  <http://pisanty.blogspot.com> http://pisanty.blogspot.com
LinkedIn:  <http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty>
http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
<http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614>
http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
Twitter:  <http://twitter.com/apisanty> http://twitter.com/apisanty
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico,  <http://www.isoc.org> http://www.isoc.org
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 

  _____  

Desde:  <mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>
governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
[governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de Chaitanya Dhareshwar
[chaitanyabd at gmail.com]
Enviado el: lunes, 03 de septiembre de 2012 21:19
Hasta:  <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Karl Auerbach
CC: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
Asunto: Re: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest

O_O

 

No more public seats!? Gone the voice of reason is..?

 

There's QUITE some detail in your diary Karl. I understand how this gives
the public information - but how does this become insurance? Could you
elaborate please?

 

-C

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:

On 09/03/2012 03:02 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:

>     I am that board member.
>
> Karl, which seat number was it that you occupied at the time?

I don't remember having a number.

I was the first (and only) publicly elected board member for the
so-called "North American" area.  (I use quote marks because I thought
it odd that ICANN's "North America" included Greenland but not Mexico.)

There were five of these publicly elected seats, one for each of ICANN's
geographic regions.  ICANN erased all of these seats so that there would
never again be a public election.

For the most part I thought that the five publicly elected directors
were quite good - and in the North American election I felt that every
candidate, except perhaps one, was extremely well qualified.  Because we
all had to endure at least some degree of public selection the election
process brought to the fore people who tended to be more opinionated
than people who came to their board seats by a "nominating committee"
process in which the criteria is sometimes that of choosing the least
objectionable, most mainstream, rather than those who might give
discomfort or ask too many questions.  There were complaints about the
election process in that in some areas there was a lot of nationalistic
and corporate activity; but that is to be expected when there are
democratic processes - the winner often tends to be he/she who is the
best organized.  (For online elections in these days of social media the
value of corporate money and organization does not seem as strong an
advantage as it is in more political governmental elections; I hope that
this isn't just a transitory or illusory situation.)

Here in the US there were seven of us running for the seat.  Some you
may have heard of - such as Larry Lessig.  All were very good and we had
a very vibrant election process including face-to-face debates (at
Harvard and Stanford universities and several open online debates.)  My
campaign platform is still online at:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm

Many aspects of that platform remain important, but I'd like to draw
your attention to one that is close to my heart:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/platform.htm#full-members

I regret one aspect of that platform - I misjudged Louis Touton and did
not give him the credit he deserved.

I also felt that it was important to give to the public the reasons for
what I did when I was on the board, so I kept an on-line diary of my
decisions.  (In order not to step on the toes of others I tried to
record my points of view and not to reflect too much about what other
board members were thinking - I figured that that was their obligation
to perform, or not.)  I received a whole lot of subtle flak from ICANN
for publishing that diary, although it now seems that what I did back
then that was found so objectionable has been adopted to a degree in
ICANN's inclusion of a rationale section in its board meeting minutes.

That diary is still online at:

http://www.cavebear.com/archive/icann-board/diary/index.htm

One of the reasons that I maintained that public diary was that I was
(and am) quite aware of the tremendous risks of personal liability that
hang over every director of a non-profit corporation.  Some of these
liabilities seem to be such that they can not be protected against by
any kind of insurance policy.  So, in addition to it simply being "the
right thing to do" I created and maintained that diary so that I, should
the occasion arise, have means to demonstrate that my acts were
legitimately within the "business judgment rule" that protects corporate
directors.

        --karl--



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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 18:42:08 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 10:42:08 +1200
Subject: [governance] Jordan's Internet Goes Dark
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxqhf02AG0FFp3KXTi0t4y=R_xLaVSgRVz3_K+jQm1rXhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABBOhxqhf02AG0FFp3KXTi0t4y=R_xLaVSgRVz3_K+jQm1rXhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiD6BKeXzLyoqLzKQ-oZK3-D9KKrU99YujSB0L5nzSjP7w@mail.gmail.com>

:( Am sorry to hear that....Oh dear, would it work if someone can persuade
him to instead utilise social media to generate ideas on how to improve the
economy?

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Fahd A. Batayneh
<fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/31/jordans_internet_goes_dark
>
> With Internet Censorship, restricting freedom of expression on online
> newspapers, and more recently (last week) increasing gas prices, it seems
> that Jordan's current prime minister is counting down his days. He is the
> worst prime minister Jordan has had for quite sometime now.
>
> Fahd
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
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>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 18:52:20 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 10:52:20 +1200
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <50467D3C.4090307@cavebear.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com>
	<504336F8.90809@panamo.eu>
	<CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com>
	<CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com>
	<CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local>
	<CABBOhxqug5vXkcMdjKzCLvauipzyGrZ1JkOJ7tto6puR0H0Ybw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiBW7K4i4Aan+wOGoNrjAsdDZDM0X50qQg4AYSpUPa0-Ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFabd1KP_LpqHR6=hbULQCnNKP6jBD9rBEBZgbi+YQG-k6_16g@mail.gmail.com>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CF9C@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<50467D3C.4090307@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiC-HnRAYf0MQdyWv7wb-g1S6ULTcpqWSeN+kd8BHGRXDg@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Snip
>
>
> --------
>
>  salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@**gmail.com<salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>
>
>  At Large in itself is not an accountability mechanism ...
>>
>
> I would substantially differ with that assessment.  If ICANN is not
> accountable to those for whose benefit it exists, i.e. the public community
> of internet users, then to whom is it accountable, and how?
>
> If we use your rationale who then comprises of the public community of
internet users?

 There is space for anyone within the broad public community to engage
whether they wish to opt and join the Non Commercial Stakeholders or At
Large etc?

> As it currently stands the only person who clearly has the power to hold
> ICANN accountable is the Attorney General of California, Kamala Harris.
>
> and so does the AG of every other country if you really think about it.
Whilst ICANN is a body corporate registered under Californian laws, it can
also be seen as a MNC by virtue of its dealings in virtually every country
that has a ccTLD or gTLD. That is just one dimension of analysis. The
internal checks and balances that are created from the cross constituencies
and support organisations also exist to check and balance each other's
voices so that everyone's interests in the information infrastructure space
is accounted for.

> It strikes me that in these matters of internet governance that a body of
> governance should be subject to a clear, unambiguous, and viable chain of
> accountability to those for whose benefit that body exists.
>
It already does, last time I check and if it does not, then one can raise
it formally through mechanisms provided for within the Bylaws.

>
>
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From karl at cavebear.com  Tue Sep  4 20:00:41 2012
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 17:00:41 -0700
Subject: [governance] ICANN stumbling on a hornet nest
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiC-HnRAYf0MQdyWv7wb-g1S6ULTcpqWSeN+kd8BHGRXDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYq9hzKi5YTgHxBkr0a-cMosEQfK-HQgsYANJHHR0gnXOQ@mail.gmail.com> <05kkMMC8pwQQFAuz@internetpolicyagency.com> <504336F8.90809@panamo.eu> <CABBOhxrOcHUsYAbXjyxizVyr_cPjgdr_E13A+p9MBxwkf4ERJw@mail.gmail.com> <5044E958.1040909@cavebear.com> <CAJwbTiAXyntOWtpZPuJHUuXyCYkfhfqB-PJ5YMmN998awj0zrg@mail.gmail.com> <50455BE6.7030802@cavebear.com> <CAEP5zKS5TWqQDV_-UFABarZv2XpTJnM5yQUzo7XYGA4ezMCLEw@mail.gmail.com> <6DCAB3E586E6A34FB17223DF8D8F0D3D483DAAEE@W8-EXMB-DP.unam.local> <CABBOhxqug5vXkcMdjKzCLvauipzyGrZ1JkOJ7tto6puR0H0Ybw@mail.gmail.com> <CAJwbTiBW7K4i4Aan+wOGoNrjAsdDZDM0X50qQg4AYSpUPa0-Ww@mail.gmail.com> <CAFabd1KP_LpqHR6=hbULQCnNKP6jBD9rBEBZgbi+YQG-k6_16g@mail.gmail.com> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CF9C@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <50467D3C.4090307@cavebear.com> <CAJwbTiC-HnRAYf0MQdyWv7wb-g1S6ULTcpqWSeN+kd8BHGRXDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50469629.6080306@cavebear.com>

On 09/04/2012 03:52 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:

>         At Large in itself is not an accountability mechanism ...
>
>
>     I would substantially differ with that assessment.  If ICANN is not
>     accountable to those for whose benefit it exists, i.e. the public
>     community of internet users, then to whom is it accountable, and how?
>
> If we use your rationale who then comprises of the public community of
> internet users?
>
>   There is space for anyone within the broad public community to engage
> whether they wish to opt and join the Non Commercial Stakeholders or At
> Large etc?

However, as you said, those are not accountability mechanisms.  They 
have no power to take compel ICANN.

We ought not to conflate accountability - which is a power to march 
before a third party and demand that ICANN do what it is obligated to do 
- from supplication, and have that third party coerce ICANN to comply.

>     As it currently stands the only person who clearly has the power to
>     hold ICANN accountable is the Attorney General of California, Kamala
>     Harris.
>
> and so does the AG of every other country if you really think about it.

Thinking about it... thinking about it ... thinking about it ... ;-)

I disagree.  There is a matter called "jurisdiction" and except perhaps 
for those rather few countries where ICANN has business offices it is 
unlikely that any country than the US, and within the US the State of 
California, would find that it has jurisdictional power over ICANN.

As you allude there is the notion of jurisdiction based on contacts. 
However, I very much doubt that more than a handful, if any, national 
courts would find that TLDs form a basis for jursididiction.  And if 
they did it would most likely only be for matters pertaining to a 
particular TLD.

As for "cross constituencies" and "support organizations" - again that 
conflates the power to hold accountable with the power to make 
supplications.

Suppose that ICANN violates a law - as it did when it refused to let me, 
a sitting member of its Board of Directors, inspect its financial 
records.  There is no means that any ICANN constituency or support 
organization could retain redress.  Sure they could ask, but ICANN is 
free to ignore.

>     It strikes me that in these matters of internet governance that a
>     body of governance should be subject to a clear, unambiguous, and
>     viable chain of accountability to those for whose benefit that body
>     exists.
>
> It already does, last time I check and if it does not, then one can
> raise it formally through mechanisms provided for within the Bylaws.

Again you are conflating supplication with true accountability.

Suppose, for instance ICANN simply refuses to seat a liason or ALAC 
representative.  How are you going to force ICANN to meet its obligation 
to do so?

This is not a game of softball and hopes and wishes; this, as I 
mentioned last night, is a game of power politics.

	--karl--



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From kovenronald at aol.com  Wed Sep  5 01:43:10 2012
From: kovenronald at aol.com (Koven Ronald)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 01:43:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fwd: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <8CF58F1FC2F34A2-458-6FA3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com> <8CF58F1FC2F34A2-458-6FA3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CF5940776C882B-1250-B6AE@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>

Dear Oksana Pryhod and All --


I'm not at all sure that you're right that WAN's maintenance of its plan to hold its congress in Kyiv was the right decision. Only time will tell. Yes, it gave you a very good opportunity to demonstrate against the President, but who knows whether he will act to get even with you ? His goons took photos of all of you demonstrating.


I heard a fair amount of hypocrisy in the statements about Ukraine at the conference. Not once did anyone mention how the government has been persecuting Yulia T. Was that a self-imposed red line by the conference participants ?


I recall the debates over whether to hold a UNESCO conference on press freedom in Kazakhstan 20 years ago. I argued against going there and was told to wait and see, that it would improve things. We went and protested violations of press freedom. Things did improve for 2-3 years, apparently as a direct result. But the government gradually returned to its old habits and the situation now seems to be as bad or worse than when we went 20 years ago. And now the Kazakh government is about to hold a new conference to commemorate the one from 20 years ago -- in other words, they are wrapping its current repressive policies in the legitimacy that we gave them by going there back then.


We had the same debate over holding the World Summit on the Information Society in Tunis. I do think that going there and letting the world see the real nature of the Ben Ali regime did prepare world opinion for the need for a revolution, even if freedom of expression isn't doing so well in Tunisia now.


So, I'm not at all sure that holding the next Internet Governance Forum in Azerbaijan will be a net plus. On balance, I think we shouldn't be lending our legitimacy to dictatorships. They compete to get us to hold conferences in their countries precisely because they mean to use us to strengthen their grip on power. It doesn't always work out that way, but sometimes it does achieve exactly what the dictators wanted.


Best regards,


Rony Koven, World Press Freedom Committee


-----Original Message-----
From: Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com>
To: oprytula <oprytula at gmail.com>; oprytula <oprytula at yahoo.com>; idmytrychyn <idmytrychyn at noos.fr>
Cc: sana.pryhod <sana.pryhod at gmail.com>
Sent: Tue, Sep 4, 2012 10:21 pm
Subject: Fwd: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries


FYI, one of the editors in the delegation that met with the President today told me that he replied to the criticisms by saying that Ukraine is "a country in transition."


As a Balkan colleague remarked uopoin hearing that, "Maybe he meant 'in transition' from democracy."


Buzi, Rony Koven



-----Original Message-----
From: Oksana Prykhodko <sana.pryhod at gmail.com>
To: IG Caucus <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
Sent: Tue, Sep 4, 2012 6:46 pm
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries


Dear all,

I would like to add new food to our old discussion about propriety to
hold international events in non-democratic countries.

Kiev just now is hosting World Newspaper Congress, with participation
of the most influential editors and journalists from the whole world.

Yesterday Jacob Mathew, President of the World Association of
Newspapers and News Publishers (WAN-IFRA), gave excellent analysis of
media situation in Ukraine, underlined main threats to media freedom.
Then Ukrainian president Victor Yanulovich gave his interpretation of
the same situation, stating, that there are no problems for the
freedom of speech in Ukraine.
During his speech 12 Ukrainian journalists and media activists (I was
among them) stood up with critical banners. And were brutally attacked
by Yanukovich securities.

It was excellent illustration to his words, and received world-wide
coverage (except of Ukrainian TV channels).

Today 14 the most influential editors met Yanukovich and demanded to
investigate this incident and not to persecute protesters.

I really highly appreciate support of WAN-IFRA and all lessons, that
it gave to Ukraine. And I hope that IGF in Baku will be also of great
use to Azeris.

Best regards,
Oksana

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/09/03/world/europe/03reuters-ukraine-journalists-protest.html?_r=2&ref=politics
http://www.wan-ifra.org/articles/2012/09/06/press-freedom-an-own-goal-for-ukraine


 
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 02:14:09 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 08:14:09 +0200
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <8CF5940776C882B-1250-B6AE@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8CF58F1FC2F34A2-458-6FA3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CF5940776C882B-1250-B6AE@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxor5aV7jOpcfgrp+vUi3yFGpP3YbYfGNCG1P0hg0gp8Fw@mail.gmail.com>

Koven,

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com> wrote:

> (snip)
>
>  We had the same debate over holding the World Summit on the Information
> Society in Tunis. I do think that going there and letting the world see the
> real nature of the Ben Ali regime did prepare world opinion for the need
> for a revolution, *even if freedom of expression isn't doing so well in
> Tunisia now.*
>

On what basis did you base these claims?

Fahd
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 02:18:42 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 08:18:42 +0200
Subject: [governance] Jordan's Internet Goes Dark
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiD6BKeXzLyoqLzKQ-oZK3-D9KKrU99YujSB0L5nzSjP7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABBOhxqhf02AG0FFp3KXTi0t4y=R_xLaVSgRVz3_K+jQm1rXhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJwbTiD6BKeXzLyoqLzKQ-oZK3-D9KKrU99YujSB0L5nzSjP7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxpunxQaFM3CM-XmuuVfPKVPVr2yY_Kh+iP5tS8-Z=821g@mail.gmail.com>

I am assuming that the law will not last long and the next Jordanian PM
shall revert the decision (reverting decisions in Jordan is VERY common,
and that is why many projects never gain any momentum over the long run).

Fahd

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 12:42 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

> :( Am sorry to hear that....Oh dear, would it work if someone can persuade
> him to instead utilise social media to generate ideas on how to improve the
> economy?
>
> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/31/jordans_internet_goes_dark
>>
>> With Internet Censorship, restricting freedom of expression on online
>> newspapers, and more recently (last week) increasing gas prices, it seems
>> that Jordan's current prime minister is counting down his days. He is the
>> worst prime minister Jordan has had for quite sometime now.
>>
>> Fahd
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>
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From kovenronald at aol.com  Wed Sep  5 02:31:09 2012
From: kovenronald at aol.com (Koven Ronald)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 02:31:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxor5aV7jOpcfgrp+vUi3yFGpP3YbYfGNCG1P0hg0gp8Fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8CF58F1FC2F34A2-458-6FA3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CF5940776C882B-1250-B6AE@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com> <CABBOhxor5aV7jOpcfgrp+vUi3yFGpP3YbYfGNCG1P0hg0gp8Fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CF59472BFFDABE-1250-B82E@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>

And on what basis would you contend the contrary ?


I'm an active member of the Tunisia Monitoring Group, and we have noted the reluctance of the new authorities to enact meaningful free speech/press freedom measures.I refer you to various TMG alerts on the situation. The resignation in frustration of Kamel Labidi as head of the official body formed to promote media freedom measures speaks volumes. He is about to testify on the deterioration of the situation before the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva. When I was in Tunis for World Press Freedom Day this May, lack of official commitment to furthering media freedom was obvious. There are numerous well-documented concrete signs and examples.


Bests, Rony Koven



-----Original Message-----
From: Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>
To: Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com>
Cc: IG Caucus <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
Sent: Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:14 am
Subject: Re: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries


Koven,


On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com> wrote:

(snip)


We had the same debate over holding the World Summit on the Information Society in Tunis. I do think that going there and letting the world see the real nature of the Ben Ali regime did prepare world opinion for the need for a revolution, even if freedom of expression isn't doing so well in Tunisia now.


On what basis did you base these claims?

Fahd 


 
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From sana.pryhod at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 02:33:39 2012
From: sana.pryhod at gmail.com (Oksana Prykhodko)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 09:33:39 +0300
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <8CF5940776C882B-1250-B6AE@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CF58F1FC2F34A2-458-6FA3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF5940776C882B-1250-B6AE@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+C8XCLMQ9ee2hnFGjxJW5PY-swPy5QM4EY2jXa1t9X9VaiWBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Roni,

Thank you very much for your letter.

I fully understand your concerns and share some of them.

Yes, the fact, that we showed our posters to stop censorship, will not
stop it. But we demonstrated, first of all - sorry, not we, but
Yanukovich gangsters demonstrated, that Yanukovich lies, when he says,
that there is no censorship in Ukraine at all.

Second - our faces, names, e-mail addresses and telephone numbers are
known for Yanukovich regime very well (they wiretapped us, reviewed
our correspondence, checked our personals). But now our faces and
names are known to a lot of people throughout the world. I am sure
that they will not imprison me for this action. But they really can
imprison me, for example, for Adobe Connect on my PC, claiming, that
they just fulfill their "international obligations" (even if this
Adobe is open). And I hope, a lot of people then can understand real
reasons for it.

Third, about Timoshenko and so on. No boycott or international
isolation will stop Yanukovich and his banda - only bank accounts
blocking and no visa for them and their families from international
community and real protests within Ukraine. That is why it is very
sad, that World Newspaper Congress has very high fee for
participation, and very few Ukrainians could join it to hear about
Mexican or even Russian journalists and media activists and to
establish personal contacts with foreign colleagues. You can try to
follow media coverage of WAN-IFRA in Ukraine to understand, that
Ukrainians did not receive adequate information about it at all from
national media. But they read a lot in foreign media.

Hoping to see more such events in Ukraine and in other postSoviet countries,
Best regards,
Oksana Prykhodko,
director of iNGO European Media Platform




2012/9/5 Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com>:
> Dear Oksana Pryhod and All --
>
> I'm not at all sure that you're right that WAN's maintenance of its plan to
> hold its congress in Kyiv was the right decision. Only time will tell. Yes,
> it gave you a very good opportunity to demonstrate against the President,
> but who knows whether he will act to get even with you ? His goons took
> photos of all of you demonstrating.
>
> I heard a fair amount of hypocrisy in the statements about Ukraine at the
> conference. Not once did anyone mention how the government has been
> persecuting Yulia T. Was that a self-imposed red line by the conference
> participants ?
>
> I recall the debates over whether to hold a UNESCO conference on press
> freedom in Kazakhstan 20 years ago. I argued against going there and was
> told to wait and see, that it would improve things. We went and protested
> violations of press freedom. Things did improve for 2-3 years, apparently as
> a direct result. But the government gradually returned to its old habits and
> the situation now seems to be as bad or worse than when we went 20 years
> ago. And now the Kazakh government is about to hold a new conference to
> commemorate the one from 20 years ago -- in other words, they are wrapping
> its current repressive policies in the legitimacy that we gave them by going
> there back then.
>
> We had the same debate over holding the World Summit on the Information
> Society in Tunis. I do think that going there and letting the world see the
> real nature of the Ben Ali regime did prepare world opinion for the need for
> a revolution, even if freedom of expression isn't doing so well in Tunisia
> now.
>
> So, I'm not at all sure that holding the next Internet Governance Forum in
> Azerbaijan will be a net plus. On balance, I think we shouldn't be lending
> our legitimacy to dictatorships. They compete to get us to hold conferences
> in their countries precisely because they mean to use us to strengthen their
> grip on power. It doesn't always work out that way, but sometimes it does
> achieve exactly what the dictators wanted.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rony Koven, World Press Freedom Committee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com>
> To: oprytula <oprytula at gmail.com>; oprytula <oprytula at yahoo.com>;
> idmytrychyn <idmytrychyn at noos.fr>
> Cc: sana.pryhod <sana.pryhod at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tue, Sep 4, 2012 10:21 pm
> Subject: Fwd: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
>
> FYI, one of the editors in the delegation that met with the President today
> told me that he replied to the criticisms by saying that Ukraine is "a
> country in transition."
>
> As a Balkan colleague remarked uopoin hearing that, "Maybe he meant 'in
> transition' from democracy."
>
> Buzi, Rony Koven
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Oksana Prykhodko <sana.pryhod at gmail.com>
> To: IG Caucus <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
> Sent: Tue, Sep 4, 2012 6:46 pm
> Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
>
> Dear all,
>
> I would like to add new food to our old discussion about propriety to
> hold international events in non-democratic countries.
>
> Kiev just now is hosting World Newspaper Congress, with participation
> of the most influential editors and journalists from the whole world.
>
> Yesterday Jacob Mathew, President of the World Association of
> Newspapers and News Publishers (WAN-IFRA), gave excellent analysis of
> media situation in Ukraine, underlined main threats to media freedom.
> Then Ukrainian president Victor Yanulovich gave his interpretation of
> the same situation, stating, that there are no problems for the
> freedom of speech in Ukraine.
> During his speech 12 Ukrainian journalists and media activists (I was
> among them) stood up with critical banners. And were brutally attacked
> by Yanukovich securities.
>
> It was excellent illustration to his words, and received world-wide
> coverage (except of Ukrainian TV channels).
>
> Today 14 the most influential editors met Yanukovich and demanded to
> investigate this incident and not to persecute protesters.
>
> I really highly appreciate support of WAN-IFRA and all lessons, that
> it gave to Ukraine. And I hope that IGF in Baku will be also of great
> use to Azeris.
>
> Best regards,
> Oksana
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/09/03/world/europe/03reuters-ukraine-journalists-protest.html?_r=2&ref=politics
> http://www.wan-ifra.org/articles/2012/09/06/press-freedom-an-own-goal-for-ukraine
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 02:33:57 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 08:33:57 +0200
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <8CF59472BFFDABE-1250-B82E@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8CF58F1FC2F34A2-458-6FA3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CF5940776C882B-1250-B6AE@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>
 <CABBOhxor5aV7jOpcfgrp+vUi3yFGpP3YbYfGNCG1P0hg0gp8Fw@mail.gmail.com> <8CF59472BFFDABE-1250-B82E@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxom7-UK_D8dDUTKMT_6pdbXps-v8TGuR=98OzVOSZRqyg@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Koven. I withdraw the term "claims" from my previous e-mail.

Fahd

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com> wrote:

> And on what basis would you contend the contrary ?
>
>  I'm an active member of the Tunisia Monitoring Group, and we have noted
> the reluctance of the new authorities to enact meaningful free speech/press
> freedom measures.I refer you to various TMG alerts on the situation. The
> resignation in frustration of Kamel Labidi as head of the official body
> formed to promote media freedom measures speaks volumes. He is about to
> testify on the deterioration of the situation before the UN Human Rights
> Council in Geneva. When I was in Tunis for World Press Freedom Day this
> May, lack of official commitment to furthering media freedom was obvious.
> There are numerous well-documented concrete signs and examples.
>
>  Bests, Rony Koven
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>
> To: Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com>
> Cc: IG Caucus <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
> Sent: Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:14 am
> Subject: Re: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
>
>  Koven,
>
> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> (snip)
>>
>>  We had the same debate over holding the World Summit on the Information
>> Society in Tunis. I do think that going there and letting the world see the
>> real nature of the Ben Ali regime did prepare world opinion for the need
>> for a revolution, *even if freedom of expression isn't doing so well in
>> Tunisia now.*
>>
>
> On what basis did you base these claims?
>
> Fahd
>
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From kovenronald at aol.com  Wed Sep  5 02:56:33 2012
From: kovenronald at aol.com (Koven Ronald)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 02:56:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxom7-UK_D8dDUTKMT_6pdbXps-v8TGuR=98OzVOSZRqyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8CF58F1FC2F34A2-458-6FA3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CF5940776C882B-1250-B6AE@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>
 <CABBOhxor5aV7jOpcfgrp+vUi3yFGpP3YbYfGNCG1P0hg0gp8Fw@mail.gmail.com> <8CF59472BFFDABE-1250-B82E@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com> <CABBOhxom7-UK_D8dDUTKMT_6pdbXps-v8TGuR=98OzVOSZRqyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CF594AB7D16D52-1250-B8DC@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>

Dear Fahd --


Here below is the latest Tunisia Monitoring Group statement on the situation. I had argued internally that it was too long and detailed for an exercise in public communication, but it does provide the chapter and verse to answer your questions on what we base our concerns. It is also available in Arabic and French on the TMG web site.


Bests, Rony Koven



Old-style repression resurfaces to threaten freedom of expression in new Tunisia, says IFEX-TMG
 

A hundred Tunisian journalists gathered on 22 August in the Kasbah, Tunis to criticising appointments in the public media. (El Watan)


(IFEX-TMG) - 29 August 2012 - In the wake of recent government appointments to heads of prominent media outlets, as well as attacks on journalists, writers and artists, the International Freedom of Expression Exchange Tunisia Monitoring Group (IFEX-TMG), a coalition of 21 IFEX members, expresses serious concern over what has been a wave of setbacks for freedom of expression in Tunisia. 

The IFEX-TMG strongly condemns the increasing use of violence and threats against journalists, artists and writers by police and ultra-conservative groups, and the government's failure to put an end to the impunity of those carrying out these attacks. Furthermore, members of the media are in the midst of an ongoing battle to safeguard the freedoms gained during the democratic transition period, after the revolution. 

Lack of transparency and consultation 

On 22 August 2012, the Tunisian government appointed Imane Bahroun as the head of National Television and Lotfi Touati, a former security officer, as director of media group Dar Assabah, the company which publishes two influential daily newspapers and a weekly magazine. 

The government had relieved former Dar Assabah director, Kamel Sammari, of his duties despite plans by the company's board to discuss the issue on 15 September 2012. The move was strongly condemned by journalists and public figures, who protested outside the building for several days and ran blank front pages in Assabbah and Le Temps in solidarity. The National Syndicate for Tunisian Journalists (SNJT) has strongly condemned the removal and has since called for a strike on 15 September 2012 to express its concerns about the erosion of media freedoms. 

Both of these new appointments were made without consultation with relevant media bodies such as the SNJT, who along with several political parties, rejected the decision as lacking transparency. This is the second time the government has appointed directors of public media unilaterally and without consultation, after appointments were made to public service media in January 2012. These were later rescinded after a public outcry. 

The IFEX-TMG considers the appointments a setback on promises made by the government to act transparently and to safeguard media freedom. "Instead of introducing fair media laws after proper consultation, the government has created a legislative dead zone, and given itself sole freedom to exploit it," said Rohan Jayasekera of Index on Censorship, a member of the IFEX-TMG. 

Arrests and intimidation in the workplace 

On 25 August 2012, the Court of Appeal in Tunis issued an order to arrest Sami Fehri, the director of Attounisia TV station on charges of financial impropriety at a production company he co-owned that was contracted by the national TV station prior to the revolution. His arrest came two days after he was told the government was annoyed by his satirical programme the Political Logic, in which he criticised the government and Ennahda party leaders including Rachid Al-Ghannouchi. Fehri declared before his arrest that Lutfi Zaitoun, the Prime Minister's media advisor, called him and asked him to suspend the programme. If convicted, he faces up to ten years in prison. 

According to Fehri's lawyer, the arrest violated the Tunisian Penal Code and the accused was not given the right to defend himself nor to be informed about the charges against him. “The lawyer's explanation shows the case is purely political,” said the Tunis Centre for Freedom of Press. 

Other journalists have been pressured at work. On 21 August 2012, Boutheina Gouia, who presents the News and Rumour programme on national radio, was informed by her boss that she was suspended for hosting SNJT officials whom she invited to discuss the latest appointment of managers to the national TV and Assabah newspaper. 

The guests on the programme criticised the government's approach to dealing with the public media. “There has been a change in the attitude of employees with the national radio, it looks like a policy of intimidation has succeeded,” Gouia told the IFEX-TMG. 

As part of the pattern of intimidation, previously on 6 July 2012, Nadia Al-Hadawi, a journalist at the national radio, was prevented from entering the building where she was supposed to present her morning programme with well-known writer Naziha Rjiba, a critic of the government. 

The IFEX-TMG says the suspension of Gouia appears to be an arbitrary act designed to punish her for exercising her right to freedom of expression, and an attempt to deter others from criticising government actions. 

Physical and verbal attacks by police and Salafist groups 

The IFEX-TMG is also alarmed at a number of recent physical and verbal attacks on journalists that have taken place in Tunis and other cities, coming at the hands of police, union members and ultra-conservative religious groups (also referred to as Salafists.) On 6 August 2012, Monji Akasha, a journalist with Sfax Radio, was attacked by some of the Housing and Planning Office's union members while covering strikes in the Sfax area. 

Also on 6 August, journalist Sihem al-Mohammedi and photographer Abdul Hamid Al-Omary from Al-Hiwar Attounisi TV station, journalist Nai'ma Al-Sharmeeti from Arabiske TV station, and journalist Seif Eddin Al-Ameri from Akhir Khabar online news site were physically attacked by police on Avenue Bourguiba while covering the violent dispersal of protestors by police officers. Al-Omary suffered injuries to his legs after being badly beaten by the police. 

Around the same time, on 5 August, Tunisian blogger Lina ben Mhenni was reportedly deliberately targeted and beaten by police during a demonstration on Avenue Bourguiba. 

On 14 August 2012, ultra-conservative Islamists attacked the comedian Lutfi Al-Abdali and prevented him from presenting his show in the town of Manzil Bourguiba after they claimed he was offensive to Islam. 
On 23 August 2012, a group of Salafist men physically attacked and severely beat prominent poet Sghir Awlad Ahmed after he appeared on a programme on Attounisia TV in which he criticised Ennahda and its leaders. Afterwards, Awlad Ahmed said, “No officers or officials will be saved from the bombs of my poetry and prose if they continue to turn a blind eye to such attacks.” 

On 24 August 2012, poet Mohammed Al-Hadi Al-Waslati was attacked by a group of Salafist men in Tunis. He was later taken to hospital and is still in a critical condition. 

In an interview broadcast on 25 August 2012 on Express FM Radio, the Minister of Culture, Mehdi Mabrouk, stated that the phenomenon of Salafist attacks has to be confronted but claimed the situation was under control. This contradicts the reality that attacks are reportedly on the increase. 

The IFEX-TMG calls on the authorities, including the Ministry of Culture, to investigate these attacks and bring the perpetrators to justice in order to create a safe environment in which journalists, artists and writers can work freely, without threat or censorship. 

The IFEX-TMG once again calls on the government to implement Decree 2011-115 (also known as the new Press Code), especially article 14, which guarantees the protection of journalists from harassment and attacks and criminalises any act of violence against them. 

“We think that the government is buying time with too many promises and no actions. We are worried about freedom of the press in Tunisia. Many factors indicate that that there is a setback regarding freedom of expression. Attacks on writers, journalists and artists continue without any punishment or action. This situation takes us back to 1988 when Ben Ali had a U-turn on freedom of expression. We must fight against that,” says SNJT Chair Najiba Hamrouni. 

The IFEX-TMG states that by implementing the media laws which came into force in November 2011, better safeguards would be put in place to protect freedom of expression. It therefore urges the government to implement Decree 2011-115 and Decree 2011-116, which laid the groundwork for a newly independent broadcast media with the creation of the Independent High Authority for Audiovisual Communications (HAICA), which will have the power to appoint directors of the public media.
IFEX Tunisia Monitoring Group 
Virginie Jouan, Chair 
on behalf of the World Association of Newspapers and News Publishers (WAN-IFRA) 
c/o campaigns (@) ifex.org 
http://www.facebook.com/IFEXTMG 


@IFEXTMG
 

Arabic Network for Human Rights Information 
ARTICLE 19 
Bahrain Center for Human Rights 
Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies 
Canadian Journalists for Free Expression 
Cartoonists Rights Network International 
Egyptian Organization for Human Rights 
Freedom House 
Index on Censorship 
International Federation of Journalists 
International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions 
International Press Institute 
International Publishers Association 
Journaliste en danger 
Maharat Foundation 
Media Institute of Southern Africa 
Norwegian PEN 
World Association of Community Radio Broadcasters - AMARC 
World Association of Newspapers and News Publishers 
World Press Freedom Committee 
Writers in Prison Committee, PEN International





-----Original Message-----
From: Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>
To: Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com>
Cc: IG Caucus <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
Sent: Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:34 am
Subject: Re: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries


Thank you Koven. I withdraw the term "claims" from my previous e-mail.

Fahd


On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com> wrote:

And on what basis would you contend the contrary ?


I'm an active member of the Tunisia Monitoring Group, and we have noted the reluctance of the new authorities to enact meaningful free speech/press freedom measures.I refer you to various TMG alerts on the situation. The resignation in frustration of Kamel Labidi as head of the official body formed to promote media freedom measures speaks volumes. He is about to testify on the deterioration of the situation before the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva. When I was in Tunis for World Press Freedom Day this May, lack of official commitment to furthering media freedom was obvious. There are numerous well-documented concrete signs and examples.


Bests, Rony Koven




-----Original Message-----
From: Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>
To: Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com>
Cc: IG Caucus <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
Sent: Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:14 am
Subject: Re: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries


Koven,


On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com> wrote:

(snip)


We had the same debate over holding the World Summit on the Information Society in Tunis. I do think that going there and letting the world see the real nature of the Ben Ali regime did prepare world opinion for the need for a revolution, even if freedom of expression isn't doing so well in Tunisia now.


On what basis did you base these claims?

Fahd


 



 
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From baudouin.schombe at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 04:24:41 2012
From: baudouin.schombe at gmail.com (Baudouin Schombe)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 09:24:41 +0100
Subject: [governance] Visa letters for Baku are being sent. I have
 received one
In-Reply-To: <1346698076.15752.YahooMailNeo@web130106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1346698076.15752.YahooMailNeo@web130106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPcSPKUSrkWgyxp67Tk6Vk1CH3HOx_7wkM1fSPiHyuOPX7D5_w@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Nnenna,

Good news for you. This is the second time I introduce my request and still
no response.
I wait.
Baudouin

2012/9/3 Nnenna <nne75 at yahoo.com>

> Hi people,
>
> I reveived:
>
> "Hello,
>
>
> pls. find attached the respective invitation letter. Looking forward to
> see you in Baku.
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Murad Maksudov
> IGF Host Country Secretariat,
> Visa Department
> +994 70 2100900"
>
> FYI
>
>
>
>
> Nnenna  Nwakanma |  Founder and CEO, NNENNA.ORG  |  Consultants
> Information | Communications | Technology and Events | for Development
> Cote d'Ivoire (+225)| Tel: 225 27144 | Fax  224 26471 |Mob. 07416820
> Ghana: +233 249561345| Nigeria: +234 8101887065| http://www.nnenna.org
> nnenna at nnenna.org| @nnenna | Skype - nnenna75 | nnennaorg.blogspot.com
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
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>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
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>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
ACADEMIE DES TIC
FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
At-Large Member
NCSG Member

email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
         baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
tél:+243998983491
skype:b.schombe
wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 04:37:26 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 11:37:26 +0300
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50470F46.4060806@gmail.com>

To this we must add the coverage of systemic issues to the critique of 
the more common and formally analysed aspects of freedom of expression 
(repression, censorship, advertising control impacts, etc) namely, the 
coverage of issues from different perspectives... an example is a case 
in point: of the major financial and mainstream media outlets few if any 
were attuned to the systemic risks posed by derivatives and other 
shenanigans of the big banks... and this in the context of where they 
WERE following the money... in other words, press freedom needs to be 
contextualised in the social, productive, cultural relations of a 
society (and to anticipate possible crits - this is not an excuse for 
violations of universal human rights; even the European Union tolerates 
difference with its legal concept of "margin of appreciation"...)


On 2012/09/04 07:45 PM, Oksana Prykhodko wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I would like to add new food to our old discussion about propriety to
> hold international events in non-democratic countries.
>
> Kiev just now is hosting World Newspaper Congress, with participation
> of the most influential editors and journalists from the whole world.
>
> Yesterday Jacob Mathew, President of the World Association of
> Newspapers and News Publishers (WAN-IFRA), gave excellent analysis of
> media situation in Ukraine, underlined main threats to media freedom.
> Then Ukrainian president Victor Yanulovich gave his interpretation of
> the same situation, stating, that there are no problems for the
> freedom of speech in Ukraine.
> During his speech 12 Ukrainian journalists and media activists (I was
> among them) stood up with critical banners. And were brutally attacked
> by Yanukovich securities.
>
> It was excellent illustration to his words, and received world-wide
> coverage (except of Ukrainian TV channels).
>
> Today 14 the most influential editors met Yanukovich and demanded to
> investigate this incident and not to persecute protesters.
>
> I really highly appreciate support of WAN-IFRA and all lessons, that
> it gave to Ukraine. And I hope that IGF in Baku will be also of great
> use to Azeris.
>
> Best regards,
> Oksana
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/09/03/world/europe/03reuters-ukraine-journalists-protest.html?_r=2&ref=politics
> http://www.wan-ifra.org/articles/2012/09/06/press-freedom-an-own-goal-for-ukraine
>


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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 04:42:54 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 11:42:54 +0300
Subject: [governance] ICANN's legal status
In-Reply-To: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD2E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
References: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220CD2E@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <5047108E.1080506@gmail.com>

Thanks for the great info and disclaimer!

Just to note that the derivation of this opinion from the facts is one 
in which we may disagree, as this depends on one's predilection. Unless 
cautiously stated (not necessary on this list) this kind of view is apt 
for abuse to forestall evolutionary change.

Immunities can and certainly are abused (e.g. Ban Ki Moon was the first 
SG to sit in on military planning for the bombardment of Libya) but 
there are reasons for the immunity - once an organisation is perceived 
as carrying out _legitimate_ international functions these immunities 
are a means to get the job done.

On getting many countries to agree on anything, well global financial 
liberalisation (pre-crisis and even now) is continuing unabated - so I 
guess there is optimism of a sort.

Riaz





On 2012/09/04 07:19 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
> However, as I have emphasized again and again, California Corp. law 
> does not dictate what policies ICANN makes, it only structures the 
> organizational form of the corporation that runs the policy 
> development process. As legal frameworks go, it could be better or it 
> could be worse. As such, those who insist that it would be more 
> legitimate and accountable under international law are almost 
> certainly mistaken, given that governments and international law would 
> give the corporation all kinds of immunities that would actually 
> insulate it from certain forms of legal accountability and public 
> input. Not to mention the severe geopolitics that would be involved in 
> getting 150 governments to agree on anything. 

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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 05:27:04 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 12:27:04 +0300
Subject: [governance] Obama platform: 'Open' internet, strong IP protection
Message-ID: <50471AE8.7000107@gmail.com>


    Obama platform: 'Open' internet, strong IP protection
    <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/04/democratic_convention_platform_neutrality/>

Democrats duck specific net neutrality pledge

By Iain Thomson in San Francisco 
<http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2012/09/04/democratic_convention_platform_neutrality/> 
. Get more from this author 
<http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Iain%20Thomson>

Posted in Government 
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/public_sector/government/>, 4th September 
2012 20:54 GMT <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/04/>

The Democratic Party has published its platform for the coming election 
with a nod to net neutrality rules, support for tougher IP protection, 
and a commitment to get 98 per cent of the population onto wireless 
broadband.

The 40-page document 
<http://www.democrats.org/democratic-national-platform> devotes just a 
single sentence to net neutrality: "President Obama is strongly 
committed to protecting an open Internet that fosters investment, 
innovation, creativity, consumer choice, and free speech, unfettered by 
censorship or undue violations of privacy."

Given the complexities of the issues involved, this covers a multitude 
of potential sins. Most telecommunications providers are very keen to 
sponsor new investment by slicing and pricing bandwidth to the bigger 
payers, for example, but that hardly constitutes "open" in the minds of 
many.

Supporting free speech and opposing censorship are noble principles, 
although hardly earth-shattering demonstrations of political courage -- 
but the devil is in the details. There's no clear support for the 
current FCC net-neutrality rules, Chairman Genachowski's vaunted "third 
way <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/07/genachowskis_third_way/>" 
that the Republican platform 
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/29/republican_2012_election_platform/>, 
published last week, extensively trashed. In addition, the EFF will 
certainly be curious as to exactly what constitutes "undue violations of 
privacy."

In contrast to its brevity on internet freedoms, the platform document 
goes to comparatively great lengths to support the rights of 
intellectual property holders. While the administration wants to look at 
voluntary regulation that "supports the free flow of information," it's 
also promising an increasing crackdown on IP violations and the 
protection of America's trade secrets.

The platform says that seizures of fake critical technology are up 200 
per cent, and that the Department of Justice is aggressively going after 
those who seek to steal or counterfeit. Kim Dotcom and the New Zealand 
police would certainly agree.

To be fair, the current administration has taken some interesting 
decisions on this front. White House disapproval with SOPA and PIPA was 
helpful in stalling 
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/16/sopa_no_dns_block/> those 
bills, and it has threatened a veto of CISPA 
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/25/white_house_cispa_veto/> 
cybersecurity laws over privacy protections. Then again, the 
administration still hasn't totally given up on ACTA yet, and the Trans 
Pacific Partnership negotiations are worrying many 
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/21/greens_against_tpp/>.

On the infrastructure side, the platform commits to getting 98 per cent 
of the US population on wireless broadband, but no specific timescale is 
mentioned. The auction of spare wireless spectrum 
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/08/genachowski_at_ces/> will be 
accelerated by having existing holders trade their allowances, as 
opposed to the Republican platform of selling spectrum off to the 
highest bidder.

"Democrats know that the United States must preserve our leadership in 
the Internet economy," the platform states. "We will ensure that America 
has a 21st century digital infrastructure -- robust wired and wireless 
broadband capability, a smarter electrical grid, and upgraded 
information technology infrastructure in key sectors such as health care 
and education."

Meanwhile, on cybersecurity the platform points out that this 
administration has made positive steps, included creating the first 
military command dedicated to cybersecurity and auditing federal 
government vulnerabilities. The platform commits to setting up national 
and international security partnerships and doing more with private 
sector sources to lock down critical infrastructure.

Apart from that, there was very little mention of technology in the 
platform, which largely focused on ways to get the economy moving again. 
The next Mars mission, the static seismic InSight mission 
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/20/nasa_insight_mission/> 
scheduled for 2016, will go ahead, and there'll be more support for 
science and technology teaching.

Based on the two party's platforms, neither has really made many firm 
commitments one way or the other -- which is exactly what you'd expect 
with political commitments. The Republicans are vocal on what's wrong 
with the current system (pretty much everything, they say), and offer a 
few solutions in the form of public/private partnership projects with 
industry and "reform 
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/07/open_internet_debate_at_ces/>" 
of regulations -- with a legislative chainsaw.

Meanwhile, in the Democratic world there are a lot of high ideals but 
very little in practical terms of how to get there, other than the 
spectrum trading system currently stalled in Congress. The cybersecurity 
stuff looks good, but one major hack and that could well turn into a 
liability. ®

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From bavouc at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 05:35:54 2012
From: bavouc at gmail.com (Martial Bavou[Private Business Account])
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 10:35:54 +0100
Subject: [governance] Visa letters for Baku are being sent. I have
 received one
In-Reply-To: <CAPcSPKUSrkWgyxp67Tk6Vk1CH3HOx_7wkM1fSPiHyuOPX7D5_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1346698076.15752.YahooMailNeo@web130106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <CAPcSPKUSrkWgyxp67Tk6Vk1CH3HOx_7wkM1fSPiHyuOPX7D5_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAANnlFloumCxMuwwBwSZjX53CgAAAEAAAAIXV8lLjaXhAuPgjALnUwzQBAAAAAA==@gmail.com>

Hi

 

I received this one week back, make sure you mail  Visa Inquiries
<igf2012visa at gmail.com>; and visainquiries at igf2012.az
<visainquiries at igf2012.az>; for reminding

 

Regards

 

From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
[mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Baudouin Schombe
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 9:25 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Nnenna
Cc: Baudouin Schombe
Subject: Re: [governance] Visa letters for Baku are being sent. I have
received one

 

Hello Nnenna,

Good news for you. This is the second time I introduce my request and still
no response.
I wait.
Baudouin

2012/9/3 Nnenna <nne75 at yahoo.com>

Hi people,

 

I reveived:

 

"Hello,


pls. find attached the respective invitation letter. Looking forward to see
you in Baku.

-- 
Best Regards,


Murad Maksudov
IGF Host Country Secretariat,
Visa Department
 <tel:%2B994%2070%202100900> +994 70 2100900"

 

FYI

 

 



Nnenna  Nwakanma |  Founder and CEO, NNENNA.ORG  |  Consultants
Information | Communications | Technology and Events | for Development
Cote d'Ivoire (+225)| Tel: 225 27144 | Fax  224 26471 |Mob. 07416820
Ghana: +233 249561345 <tel:%2B233%20249561345> | Nigeria: +234 8101887065
<tel:%2B234%208101887065> | http://www.nnenna.org 
nnenna at nnenna.org| @nnenna | Skype - nnenna75 | nnennaorg.blogspot.com


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-- 
SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
ACADEMIE DES TIC
FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
At-Large Member
NCSG Member

email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com <mailto:email%3Abaudouin.schombe at gmail.com>

         baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
tél:+243998983491
skype:b.schombe
wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr

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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 05:43:05 2012
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 14:43:05 +0500
Subject: [governance] Obama platform: 'Open' internet, strong IP
 protection
In-Reply-To: <50471AE8.7000107@gmail.com>
References: <50471AE8.7000107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHuaJtPSqGsQz1jDDUhcCcixx_MQpYZiXT9wDA9paQMp+qn4Gw@mail.gmail.com>

Why worry when we know the political drama and its outcomes. SOPA,
PIPA, ACTA and all that and now this, makes me smile and see more
clearly why the WCIT/ITRs to other countries.....we know to a great
deal who is committed to what in the US political landscape so why do
our buzzers go off at the very sight of such "grab anything while you
can" election year issues abuse?

-- FoO-da-Bytes!

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:
> Obama platform: 'Open' internet, strong IP protection
>
> Democrats duck specific net neutrality pledge
>
> By Iain Thomson in San Francisco • Get more from this author
>
> Posted in Government, 4th September 2012 20:54 GMT
>
> The Democratic Party has published its platform for the coming election with
> a nod to net neutrality rules, support for tougher IP protection, and a
> commitment to get 98 per cent of the population onto wireless broadband.
>
> The 40-page document devotes just a single sentence to net neutrality:
> "President Obama is strongly committed to protecting an open Internet that
> fosters investment, innovation, creativity, consumer choice, and free
> speech, unfettered by censorship or undue violations of privacy."
>

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From skiden at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 05:53:39 2012
From: skiden at gmail.com (Sarah Kiden)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 12:53:39 +0300
Subject: [governance] Visa letters for Baku are being sent. I have
 received one
In-Reply-To: <CAPcSPKUSrkWgyxp67Tk6Vk1CH3HOx_7wkM1fSPiHyuOPX7D5_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1346698076.15752.YahooMailNeo@web130106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CAPcSPKUSrkWgyxp67Tk6Vk1CH3HOx_7wkM1fSPiHyuOPX7D5_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABKLyKi_T9akj=rrqu+erUiDk9S-9hGx_oYaYE8=mjz=Lc4kZw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Baudouin,
I hope you are well. I think you should be patient and you should receive
your letter soon. The letters are being prepared, signed and scanned
individually and I am guessing it could take some time though you should be
able to receive your letter real soon. I received mine after about a week
of receiving an email informing me that my request had been accepted for
processing.

Regards,

Sarah

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Baudouin Schombe <
baudouin.schombe at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Nnenna,
>
> Good news for you. This is the second time I introduce my request and still
> no response.
> I wait.
> Baudouin
>
> 2012/9/3 Nnenna <nne75 at yahoo.com>
>
>>  Hi people,
>>
>> I reveived:
>>
>> "Hello,
>>
>>
>> pls. find attached the respective invitation letter. Looking forward to
>> see you in Baku.
>>
>> --
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>> Murad Maksudov
>> IGF Host Country Secretariat,
>> Visa Department
>> +994 70 2100900"
>>
>> FYI
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Nnenna  Nwakanma |  Founder and CEO, NNENNA.ORG  |  Consultants
>> Information | Communications | Technology and Events | for Development
>> Cote d'Ivoire (+225)| Tel: 225 27144 | Fax  224 26471 |Mob. 07416820
>> Ghana: +233 249561345| Nigeria: +234 8101887065| http://www.nnenna.org
>> nnenna at nnenna.org| @nnenna | Skype - nnenna75 | nnennaorg.blogspot.com
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
> CENTRE AFRICAIN D'ECHANGE CULTUREL/
> ACADEMIE DES TIC
> FACILITATEUR GAID/AFRIQUE Membre
> At-Large Member
> NCSG Member
>
> email:baudouin.schombe at gmail.com
>          baudouin.schombe at ticafrica.net
> tél:+243998983491
> skype:b.schombe
> wite web:http://webmail.ticafrica.net
> blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
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From nb at bollow.ch  Wed Sep  5 06:24:45 2012
From: nb at bollow.ch (Norbert Bollow)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 12:24:45 +0200
Subject: [governance] Caribbean Internet Governance Forum [Lessons the
 world can learn] #Enhanced Cooperation
In-Reply-To: <20120904140725.334619f0@quill.bollow.ch>
References: <CAJwbTiCz7CSPMXM9i23Lw2vcNv40zm34tyfMb2JtzTf+NW7R3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120904140725.334619f0@quill.bollow.ch>
Message-ID: <20120905122445.66d492d7@quill.bollow.ch>

Norbert Bollow <nb at bollow.ch> wrote:
> "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro"
> <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:
> > For those interested in seeing "enhanced cooperation" in action,
> > please download a copy of the Caribbean Internet Governance
> > Framework. You will see very clear the values based engagement that
> > is apparent in the collaborative manner in which they are engaging.
> 
> Is there a direct link to the document (that does't require
> registering first?)

As a matter of fact you can't even "register" anymore, but the
framework document (both the released version from 2009 and the current
draft for a new version) seems to be available from

http://www.ctu.int/internet-governance

Greetings,
Norbert

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From gpaque at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 14:51:28 2012
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 13:51:28 -0500
Subject: [governance] Choice of venue for meetings
Message-ID: <CALCecM8pPqoGxQ30tAhkD8wos=4=CP-9-rkOMnHhcLPzixqmNQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have been wondering how/why venues are chosen for global meetings.
Obviously, a host country must offer, and not every country will be willing
to invest the time, money and energy into the work involved, so options may
be limited. There are so many pros and cons for the topics/principles, the
host and the participants--it is mind-boggling.

A (more or less) recent blog post 'No such thing as bad publicity'
http://www.diplomacy.edu/blog/no-such-thing-bad-publicity#comment-2258 by
Liz Galvez explored this question from a slightly different angle: why
would prospective hosts expose their vulnerabilities to public discussion?
With Azerbaijan on the horizon, I have revisited the topic, and you may
find it interesting as well.

Does the choice of Azerbaijan as the venue for IGF 2012 affect your
decision to attend/not attend?

An excerpt from Liz's post:
"It seems the temptation proves irresistible for the leaders of some
countries which are seldom in the global eye to push ahead with staging a
grand event to showcase their country’s assets. Their population can bask
in an orgy of nationalist sentiment and propaganda while the media will be
so carried away by the spectacular organisation, or the beauty of the
hostesses, or the excitement of the event itself, that they will ignore the
political context and any nasty goings-on beneath the surface.  They hope
the mismatch between official image and reality remains hidden. Or they may
simply underestimate the media’s appetite to ferret out bad news. But in
what world would anyone with even a remote understanding of independent
media expect a high-profile sports or cultural event to be covered purely
for its own  sake, particularly when the host country does its best to
smother controversial stories? Credibility is an essential element in any
image-building endeavour. Where it is missing, it is difficult to regain,
as the US Administration have learnt the hard way."

Ginger


Ginger (Virginia) Paque

VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
Diplo Foundation
Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
www.diplomacy.edu/ig
**
**
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 15:30:58 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 07:30:58 +1200
Subject: [governance] Re: Choice of venue for meetings
In-Reply-To: <CALCecM8pPqoGxQ30tAhkD8wos=4=CP-9-rkOMnHhcLPzixqmNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALCecM8pPqoGxQ30tAhkD8wos=4=CP-9-rkOMnHhcLPzixqmNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiAWBAebx9UnHfALuygBOwDq0tC1CcQRmx2Mrgvcfzw=vA@mail.gmail.com>

@ Ginger, as I reflect on your post, these are some things that come to
mind. There are numerous reasons why countries want to host global events.
They could be because of:-


   - convenience (there may be other meetings held in conjunction or
   immediately preceding the meeting;
   - affordability - cheaper to have it adjoining;
   - accessibility - for meeting participants if they have been brought in
   for other meetings;
   - convergence of a pool of global knowledge manifesting in the form of
   experts, resource persons, best practices, challenges etc which they can
   draw from to develop certain areas in country;
   - (from Liz's excerpt) showcasing national assets - it is natural for
   countries to have a sense of patriotism and desire to show off their
   country;
   - if they have been subject to bad press or reported to have been
   "mischievous", then to improve media relations etc;

So bottom line the question is "what's in it for them?". I think the
question is also a two way street. Where one must also examine the persons
doing the selection because this also affects the type of decisions that
are made. For instance, if  country A is at war  with country B, then there
is a greater likelihood that country A if they have a say in the selection
process will not want to country B to host such a global meeting.

So it follows that it more or less is a subjective experience hence the
need to discuss whether there should be a consistent set of rules that
should be applicable when selecting host countries. And in the course of
these discussions, it must also never be forgotten that sometimes
engagement rather than confrontation can be a catalyst for change.

Thoughts from the far seas,
Sala

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have been wondering how/why venues are chosen for global meetings.
> Obviously, a host country must offer, and not every country will be willing
> to invest the time, money and energy into the work involved, so options may
> be limited. There are so many pros and cons for the topics/principles, the
> host and the participants--it is mind-boggling.
>
> A (more or less) recent blog post 'No such thing as bad publicity'
> http://www.diplomacy.edu/blog/no-such-thing-bad-publicity#comment-2258 by
> Liz Galvez explored this question from a slightly different angle: why
> would prospective hosts expose their vulnerabilities to public discussion?
> With Azerbaijan on the horizon, I have revisited the topic, and you may
> find it interesting as well.
>
> Does the choice of Azerbaijan as the venue for IGF 2012 affect your
> decision to attend/not attend?
>
> An excerpt from Liz's post:
> "It seems the temptation proves irresistible for the leaders of some
> countries which are seldom in the global eye to push ahead with staging a
> grand event to showcase their country’s assets. Their population can bask
> in an orgy of nationalist sentiment and propaganda while the media will be
> so carried away by the spectacular organisation, or the beauty of the
> hostesses, or the excitement of the event itself, that they will ignore the
> political context and any nasty goings-on beneath the surface.  They hope
> the mismatch between official image and reality remains hidden. Or they may
> simply underestimate the media’s appetite to ferret out bad news. But in
> what world would anyone with even a remote understanding of independent
> media expect a high-profile sports or cultural event to be covered purely
> for its own  sake, particularly when the host country does its best to
> smother controversial stories? Credibility is an essential element in any
> image-building endeavour. Where it is missing, it is difficult to regain,
> as the US Administration have learnt the hard way."
>
> Ginger
>
>
> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>
> VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
> Diplo Foundation
> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
> www.diplomacy.edu/ig
> **
> **
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From gtw at gtwassociates.com  Wed Sep  5 15:40:45 2012
From: gtw at gtwassociates.com (GTW)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 15:40:45 -0400
Subject: [governance] Re: Choice of venue for meetings
References: <CALCecM8pPqoGxQ30tAhkD8wos=4=CP-9-rkOMnHhcLPzixqmNQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAJwbTiAWBAebx9UnHfALuygBOwDq0tC1CcQRmx2Mrgvcfzw=vA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CFC17D30BC59448CA8B8D60181A7D212@gtw8608f024389>

add to the list of reasons a county may offer to host ... influx of hard currency spending from international participants  to local & national economies 



George T. Willingmyre, P.E.
www.gtwassociates.com
301 421 4138
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro 
  To: Ginger Paque 
  Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org ; Narine Khachatryan 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:30 PM
  Subject: [governance] Re: Choice of venue for meetings


  @ Ginger, as I reflect on your post, these are some things that come to mind. There are numerous reasons why countries want to host global events. They could be because of:-


    a.. convenience (there may be other meetings held in conjunction or immediately preceding the meeting; 
    b.. affordability - cheaper to have it adjoining;
    c.. accessibility - for meeting participants if they have been brought in for other meetings;
    d.. convergence of a pool of global knowledge manifesting in the form of experts, resource persons, best practices, challenges etc which they can draw from to develop certain areas in country; 
    e.. (from Liz's excerpt) showcasing national assets - it is natural for countries to have a sense of patriotism and desire to show off their country;
    f.. if they have been subject to bad press or reported to have been "mischievous", then to improve media relations etc; 
  So bottom line the question is "what's in it for them?". I think the question is also a two way street. Where one must also examine the persons doing the selection because this also affects the type of decisions that are made. For instance, if  country A is at war  with country B, then there is a greater likelihood that country A if they have a say in the selection process will not want to country B to host such a global meeting.


  So it follows that it more or less is a subjective experience hence the need to discuss whether there should be a consistent set of rules that should be applicable when selecting host countries. And in the course of these discussions, it must also never be forgotten that sometimes engagement rather than confrontation can be a catalyst for change. 


  Thoughts from the far seas,
  Sala


  On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:

    I have been wondering how/why venues are chosen for global meetings. Obviously, a host country must offer, and not every country will be willing to invest the time, money and energy into the work involved, so options may be limited. There are so many pros and cons for the topics/principles, the host and the participants--it is mind-boggling. 

    A (more or less) recent blog post 'No such thing as bad publicity' http://www.diplomacy.edu/blog/no-such-thing-bad-publicity#comment-2258 by Liz Galvez explored this question from a slightly different angle: why would prospective hosts expose their vulnerabilities to public discussion? With Azerbaijan on the horizon, I have revisited the topic, and you may find it interesting as well.

    Does the choice of Azerbaijan as the venue for IGF 2012 affect your decision to attend/not attend?

    An excerpt from Liz's post:
    "It seems the temptation proves irresistible for the leaders of some countries which are seldom in the global eye to push ahead with staging a grand event to showcase their country’s assets. Their population can bask in an orgy of nationalist sentiment and propaganda while the media will be so carried away by the spectacular organisation, or the beauty of the hostesses, or the excitement of the event itself, that they will ignore the political context and any nasty goings-on beneath the surface.  They hope the mismatch between official image and reality remains hidden. Or they may simply underestimate the media’s appetite to ferret out bad news. But in what world would anyone with even a remote understanding of independent media expect a high-profile sports or cultural event to be covered purely for its own  sake, particularly when the host country does its best to smother controversial stories? Credibility is an essential element in any image-building endeavour. Where it is missing, it is difficult to regain, as the US Administration have learnt the hard way."

    Ginger


    Ginger (Virginia) Paque


    VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
    Diplo Foundation
    Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
    www.diplomacy.edu/ig









  -- 

  Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
  P.O. Box 17862
  Suva
  Fiji


  Twitter: @SalanietaT
  Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
  Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851









------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From devonrb at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 17:27:52 2012
From: devonrb at gmail.com (devonrb at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 21:27:52 +0000
Subject: [governance] Re: Choice of venue for meetings
In-Reply-To: <CFC17D30BC59448CA8B8D60181A7D212@gtw8608f024389>
References: <CALCecM8pPqoGxQ30tAhkD8wos=4=CP-9-rkOMnHhcLPzixqmNQ@mail.gmail.com>
  <CAJwbTiAWBAebx9UnHfALuygBOwDq0tC1CcQRmx2Mrgvcfzw=vA@mail.gmail.com>
  <CFC17D30BC59448CA8B8D60181A7D212@gtw8608f024389>
Message-ID: <1513922266-1346880427-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1940184494-@b18.c6.bise6.blackberry>

It is an interesting question, with respect to the IGC why do we select the countries we do. Is there any tangible benefits from the country to the Caucus. How does a particular prospective host country be more attractive for an event than another. Seems to me there should be a standard set of criteria for making the choice. Off course these criteria will have to be carefully thought out, so as not to discriminate against a potential host on the basis of Internal social, political or economic circumstance.   
Sent from my BlackBerry® device from Digicel

-----Original Message-----
From: "GTW" <gtw at gtwassociates.com>
Sender: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 15:40:45 
To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro<salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>; Ginger Paque<gpaque at gmail.com>
Reply-To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org,"GTW" <gtw at gtwassociates.com>
Cc: Narine Khachatryan<ms.narine.khachatryan at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] Re: Choice of venue for meetings

add to the list of reasons a county may offer to host ... influx of hard currency spending from international participants  to local & national economies 



George T. Willingmyre, P.E.
www.gtwassociates.com
301 421 4138
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro 
  To: Ginger Paque 
  Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org ; Narine Khachatryan 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:30 PM
  Subject: [governance] Re: Choice of venue for meetings


  @ Ginger, as I reflect on your post, these are some things that come to mind. There are numerous reasons why countries want to host global events. They could be because of:-


    a.. convenience (there may be other meetings held in conjunction or immediately preceding the meeting; 
    b.. affordability - cheaper to have it adjoining;
    c.. accessibility - for meeting participants if they have been brought in for other meetings;
    d.. convergence of a pool of global knowledge manifesting in the form of experts, resource persons, best practices, challenges etc which they can draw from to develop certain areas in country; 
    e.. (from Liz's excerpt) showcasing national assets - it is natural for countries to have a sense of patriotism and desire to show off their country;
    f.. if they have been subject to bad press or reported to have been "mischievous", then to improve media relations etc; 
  So bottom line the question is "what's in it for them?". I think the question is also a two way street. Where one must also examine the persons doing the selection because this also affects the type of decisions that are made. For instance, if  country A is at war  with country B, then there is a greater likelihood that country A if they have a say in the selection process will not want to country B to host such a global meeting.


  So it follows that it more or less is a subjective experience hence the need to discuss whether there should be a consistent set of rules that should be applicable when selecting host countries. And in the course of these discussions, it must also never be forgotten that sometimes engagement rather than confrontation can be a catalyst for change. 


  Thoughts from the far seas,
  Sala


  On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:

    I have been wondering how/why venues are chosen for global meetings. Obviously, a host country must offer, and not every country will be willing to invest the time, money and energy into the work involved, so options may be limited. There are so many pros and cons for the topics/principles, the host and the participants--it is mind-boggling. 

    A (more or less) recent blog post 'No such thing as bad publicity' http://www.diplomacy.edu/blog/no-such-thing-bad-publicity#comment-2258 by Liz Galvez explored this question from a slightly different angle: why would prospective hosts expose their vulnerabilities to public discussion? With Azerbaijan on the horizon, I have revisited the topic, and you may find it interesting as well.

    Does the choice of Azerbaijan as the venue for IGF 2012 affect your decision to attend/not attend?

    An excerpt from Liz's post:
    "It seems the temptation proves irresistible for the leaders of some countries which are seldom in the global eye to push ahead with staging a grand event to showcase their country’s assets. Their population can bask in an orgy of nationalist sentiment and propaganda while the media will be so carried away by the spectacular organisation, or the beauty of the hostesses, or the excitement of the event itself, that they will ignore the political context and any nasty goings-on beneath the surface.  They hope the mismatch between official image and reality remains hidden. Or they may simply underestimate the media’s appetite to ferret out bad news. But in what world would anyone with even a remote understanding of independent media expect a high-profile sports or cultural event to be covered purely for its own  sake, particularly when the host country does its best to smother controversial stories? Credibility is an essential element in any image-building endeavour. Where it is missing, it is difficult to regain, as the US Administration have learnt the hard way."

    Ginger


    Ginger (Virginia) Paque


    VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
    Diplo Foundation
    Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
    www.diplomacy.edu/ig









  -- 

  Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
  P.O. Box 17862
  Suva
  Fiji


  Twitter: @SalanietaT
  Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
  Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851









------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  ____________________________________________________________
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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 18:22:13 2012
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 18:22:13 -0400
Subject: [governance] Re: Choice of venue for meetings
In-Reply-To: <1513922266-1346880427-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1940184494-@b18.c6.bise6.blackberry>
References: <CALCecM8pPqoGxQ30tAhkD8wos=4=CP-9-rkOMnHhcLPzixqmNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJwbTiAWBAebx9UnHfALuygBOwDq0tC1CcQRmx2Mrgvcfzw=vA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CFC17D30BC59448CA8B8D60181A7D212@gtw8608f024389> <1513922266-1346880427-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1940184494-@b18.c6.bise6.blackberry>
Message-ID: <CACAaNxhuGRk71eeF3Cm5uz4HrQC5O3b10UeSWDxu=4q8xN9S0g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 5:27 PM,  <devonrb at gmail.com> wrote:
> It is an interesting question, with respect to the IGC why do we select the
> countries we do.

The IGC has nothing to do with selection of IGF host nations.


Is there any tangible benefits from the country to the
> Caucus.

no ;-)

-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel

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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 21:21:40 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 06:51:40 +0530
Subject: [governance] Re: Choice of venue for meetings
In-Reply-To: <CACAaNxhuGRk71eeF3Cm5uz4HrQC5O3b10UeSWDxu=4q8xN9S0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALCecM8pPqoGxQ30tAhkD8wos=4=CP-9-rkOMnHhcLPzixqmNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiAWBAebx9UnHfALuygBOwDq0tC1CcQRmx2Mrgvcfzw=vA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CFC17D30BC59448CA8B8D60181A7D212@gtw8608f024389>
	<1513922266-1346880427-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1940184494-@b18.c6.bise6.blackberry>
	<CACAaNxhuGRk71eeF3Cm5uz4HrQC5O3b10UeSWDxu=4q8xN9S0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKQzVGAzqBuQZn21ofZ7rtCv-1mj+vF_927nW=vRBRKhLA@mail.gmail.com>

The Caucus doesn't get ANYTHING out of it? Not even funding or such if
required?

That aside - what intangible benefits (if any) are derived from this
process? More participation?

-C
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 3:52 AM, McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 5:27 PM,  <devonrb at gmail.com> wrote:
> > It is an interesting question, with respect to the IGC why do we select
> the
> > countries we do.
>
> The IGC has nothing to do with selection of IGF host nations.
>
>
> Is there any tangible benefits from the country to the
> > Caucus.
>
> no ;-)
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
> route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Thu Sep  6 01:50:17 2012
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2012 13:50:17 +0800
Subject: [governance] Fwd: Joint civil society letter to ITU member states
In-Reply-To: <EBC5DAEB-E644-4529-A279-0E8AE5AC65F0@cdt.org>
References: <EBC5DAEB-E644-4529-A279-0E8AE5AC65F0@cdt.org>
Message-ID: <50483999.7080301@ciroap.org>

Forwarding this from the Center for Democracy and Technology, in case
either we as the Internet Governance Caucus, or any of our individual
groups, may wish to sign on.  Since the IGC seems not to be drafting too
many of its own statements or submissions nowadays, this seems like a
worthwhile opportunity.  The content is quite good.  (It is not to be
confused with a separate statement which will come out of the "Best
Bits" meeting at Baku, and about which I will write soon.)

Anyway, I leave this to the coordinators to take up if there is any
interest from the members.

-------- Original Message --------

An international group of civil society organizations has drafted the
attached letter to member states/WCIT delegates expressing their
concerns about the ITU process and about specific proposals that would
threaten Internet openness and the exercise of human rights online. The
letter is open for sign-on from any civil society group from any part of
the world--if you/your organization wishes to sign, please send an email
with your/your organization's name as you would like it to appear on the
letter to signon at cdt.org <mailto:signon at cdt.org>. The letter will be
published on the website of the Center for Democracy and Technology
<https://www.cdt.org/content/cdt-analyses-key-itu-proposals>. 

If you're able, please consider circulating the letter among your civil
society colleagues or helping to deliver the letter to relevant
government officials.

*- Send the letter to government officials *who are participating in the
ITU process. The following link
[http://www.itu.int/cgi-bin/htsh/mm/scripts/mm.list?_search=ITUstates&_languageid=1]
leads to a full list of ITU member states. By clicking on a member
state, you will be taken to a screen that shows various government
ministries associated with the ITU. Click on any of these ministries,
and you will find a page of contact information for individuals in those
ministries. This should be a good starting point for those who are not
sure who to contact in their governments. Of course, in many countries
there will be multiple civil society groups wanting to get the letter to
government officials, so folks should consider how to coordinate this
effort in-country.

*- Circulate the letter among your networks*--the greater the quantity
and diversity of signatories, the better!

*- Post the letter to your own website*--add a PDF of the letter, or a
link to the live page at CDT's website (where sign-ons will be added as
they are received.)
*
*
**- Translate the letter to the language *of your country/region--the
letter will be most effective if it is written in the primary language
of the government to which it is addressed.*




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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 01:54:48 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:54:48 +1200
Subject: [governance] Fwd: Joint civil society letter to ITU member
 states
In-Reply-To: <50483999.7080301@ciroap.org>
References: <EBC5DAEB-E644-4529-A279-0E8AE5AC65F0@cdt.org>
	<50483999.7080301@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiAHXc=jNe2Sz_hpRfT8W38d9_mhp0HUieAWirFX6DwmRw@mail.gmail.com>

Actually Jeremy, I was just about to send a note to the list to invite them
to comment on areas that they would like to make dedicated submissions to
etc. This was going to be via the etherpad. Once this is finalised, we will
create a survey monkey to generate feedback from the IGC. This is so people
can own the process each step of the way.



On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Jeremy Malcolm <jeremy at ciroap.org> wrote:

>  Forwarding this from the Center for Democracy and Technology, in case
> either we as the Internet Governance Caucus, or any of our individual
> groups, may wish to sign on.  Since the IGC seems not to be drafting too
> many of its own statements or submissions nowadays, this seems like a
> worthwhile opportunity.  The content is quite good.  (It is not to be
> confused with a separate statement which will come out of the "Best Bits"
> meeting at Baku, and about which I will write soon.)
>
> Anyway, I leave this to the coordinators to take up if there is any
> interest from the members.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
>  An international group of civil society organizations has drafted the
> attached letter to member states/WCIT delegates expressing their concerns
> about the ITU process and about specific proposals that would threaten
> Internet openness and the exercise of human rights online. The letter is
> open for sign-on from any civil society group from any part of the
> world--if you/your organization wishes to sign, please send an email with
> your/your organization's name as you would like it to appear on the letter
> to signon at cdt.org. The letter will be published on the website of the Center
> for Democracy and Technology<https://www.cdt.org/content/cdt-analyses-key-itu-proposals>
> .
>
>  If you're able, please consider circulating the letter among your civil
> society colleagues or helping to deliver the letter to relevant government
> officials.
>
>  *- Send the letter to government officials *who are participating in the
> ITU process. The following link [
> http://www.itu.int/cgi-bin/htsh/mm/scripts/mm.list?_search=ITUstates&_languageid=1]
> leads to a full list of ITU member states. By clicking on a member state,
> you will be taken to a screen that shows various government ministries
> associated with the ITU. Click on any of these ministries, and you will
> find a page of contact information for individuals in those ministries.
> This should be a good starting point for those who are not sure who to
> contact in their governments. Of course, in many countries there will be
> multiple civil society groups wanting to get the letter to government
> officials, so folks should consider how to coordinate this effort
> in-country.
>
>  *- Circulate the letter among your networks*--the greater the quantity
> and diversity of signatories, the better!
>
>  *- Post the letter to your own website*--add a PDF of the letter, or a
> link to the live page at CDT's website (where sign-ons will be added as
> they are received.)
> *
> *
> *- Translate the letter to the language of your country/region--the
> letter will be most effective if it is written in the primary language of
> the government to which it is addressed.*
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From william.drake at uzh.ch  Thu Sep  6 03:25:09 2012
From: william.drake at uzh.ch (William Drake)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 09:25:09 +0200
Subject: [governance] Fwd: Joint civil society letter to ITU member
 states
In-Reply-To: <50483999.7080301@ciroap.org>
References: <EBC5DAEB-E644-4529-A279-0E8AE5AC65F0@cdt.org> <50483999.7080301@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <F2894A82-CD10-4783-9FC0-B9B27F5684F8@uzh.ch>

Hi

On Sep 6, 2012, at 7:50 AM, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:

> in case either we as the Internet Governance Caucus, or any of our individual groups, may wish to sign on

It would be good if the IGC could sign on, inter alia to help build connections to other advocacy networks & audiences that don't see themselves as focused on IG per se.

> It is not to be confused with a separate statement which will come out of the "Best Bits" meeting at Baku, and about which I will write soon.

I hope that BB can agree on a different sort of letter that speaks directly to the main motivations and specific issues in play in the telecom world.  That would be complementary to more broadly framed procedural & human rights oriented statements like this.  It would also serve as a useful input to the WCIT workshop on day 1 and the WCIT discussion in the CIR main session on day 2 of IGF. 

Best,

Bill
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From lnalwoga at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 03:33:53 2012
From: lnalwoga at gmail.com (Lillian Nalwoga)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 10:33:53 +0300
Subject: [governance] Freedom Online Conference Nairobi now live
Message-ID: <CAEkQTBgQ9w16YVjZnaY+kKJjYc8VS+e9ytu50XhrUO5fRMkYFA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello members,

You can now follow the Freedom Online Conference Nairobi  live @
http://trincmedia.com/live/ and on twitter #ofKe , #FreedomOnlineKe

Regards,

Lillian
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From chris.mulola at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 03:35:27 2012
From: chris.mulola at gmail.com (Chris Mulola)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 09:35:27 +0200
Subject: [governance] Freedom Online Conference Nairobi now live
In-Reply-To: <CAEkQTBgQ9w16YVjZnaY+kKJjYc8VS+e9ytu50XhrUO5fRMkYFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEkQTBgQ9w16YVjZnaY+kKJjYc8VS+e9ytu50XhrUO5fRMkYFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAUgVfbNrey+we-k+vD5kVSSO9jJuaRjgRvFcwDWyaqjQ6jCwg@mail.gmail.com>

Thx lillian,
On Sep 6, 2012 9:34 AM, "Lillian Nalwoga" <lnalwoga at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello members,
>
> You can now follow the Freedom Online Conference Nairobi  live @
> http://trincmedia.com/live/ and on twitter #ofKe , #FreedomOnlineKe
>
> Regards,
>
> Lillian
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 03:36:15 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 19:36:15 +1200
Subject: [governance] Evaluating the IGC [Draft] #Sneak Preview
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiDjbDYF5MuJriHZSAiRNRdCxbnt5gPPA_BqU6X36yFR0w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

This is just to advise that I am in the process of preparing an evaluation
survey to assess the IGC. To get a sneak preview of the type of questions
(we have left it open ended so you will not feel restricted/confined),
please visit the etherpad at http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/IGC_2012_Survey

Essentially the Background includes the vision and mission of the IGC and
the questions are primarily based on the Objectives as set out in the
Charter. This is still Draft and is being translated into an electronic
survey.


Kind Regards,


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From joana at varonferraz.com  Thu Sep  6 03:37:36 2012
From: joana at varonferraz.com (Joana Varon)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 04:37:36 -0300
Subject: [governance] Freedom Online Conference Nairobi now live
In-Reply-To: <CAEkQTBgQ9w16YVjZnaY+kKJjYc8VS+e9ytu50XhrUO5fRMkYFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEkQTBgQ9w16YVjZnaY+kKJjYc8VS+e9ytu50XhrUO5fRMkYFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALTAiTrtD8oyB3uZK+aJR4LrJwXgsE2heA9OpaTZSKamxk7dBA@mail.gmail.com>

Very good transmission!!

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Lillian Nalwoga <lnalwoga at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Hello members,
>
> You can now follow the Freedom Online Conference Nairobi  live @
> http://trincmedia.com/live/ and on twitter #ofKe , #FreedomOnlineKe
>
> Regards,
>
> Lillian
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 

-- 

Joana Varon Ferraz
Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade (CTS-FGV)
http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts/
 <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/goog_946507056> www.freenetfilm.org
@joana_varon
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From parminder at itforchange.net  Thu Sep  6 03:41:40 2012
From: parminder at itforchange.net (parminder)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2012 13:11:40 +0530
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com> <50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net> <CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com> <50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <504853B4.6080300@itforchange.net>


On Saturday 01 September 2012 03:14 AM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
> */[Milton L Mueller] Any law from ANY jurisdiction constraining or 
> dictating ICANN’s action would have global effect, insofar as the 
> global Internet relies on ICANN to administer the DNS./*

Milton, In face of clear facts to the contrary, you continue to claim 
that EU's, India's, Ghana's, all of 192 government's, jurisdictions have 
similar implication and impact on ICANN. I dont think I need to labour 
to disprove this patently absurd proposition.

But just to continue with the present discussion on the .xxx case, even 
if the ICM registry was * not* US based, the porn industry majors could/ 
would have brought the case against ICANN for instituting .xxx (since 
the registry would of course have serviced domain name demands from the 
US among others). ICANN would still be forced to defend itself in the 
case, and if it lost the case to annul or modify .xxx agreement. It does 
not take a political scientist to understand that the same is not true 
vis a vis the jurisdiction of any other of 192 countries. Let someone 
bring up a similar case, say, in a court in Bangladesh, And you will 
find ICANN etc merrily laughing at the impertinence of it. This is 
inequity, Milton, but you dont seem to be trained to recognise it.

> */The only unique thing about the US is the IANA contract. Please try 
> to concentrate your fire on that./*

IANA contract is a problem, but special application of US law and 
jurisdiction on all actions of ICANN is at least as big a problem. You 
cannot banish the 'problem' merely becuase you dont have a response to it.

> */And if your solution is to have 192 governments share that power, I 
> suggest it will be a long time before most people involved in Internet 
> matters support you./*

One, you say above that ICANN is already equally subject to the 
jurisdiction of all the 192 governments. Are you not therefore 
contradicting yourself here? And if it indeed is already subject to 192 
jurisdiction, even efficiency, since you dont recognise issues of equity 
and democracy, would demand that there be some forum to help harmonise 
these 192 jurisdictional claims on ICANN, especially the world gets more 
and more into the digital thick. Otherwise we are in a rather 
unsustainable and dangerous situation, dont you think!

Secondly, I have heard similar arguments in India against Indian 
democratic system and I completely understand the sentiment - it is 
better to have a dictator rather than be governed by the '550 tyrants' 
sitting in the parliament. Do you also believe/ propose so about the US 
democratic system? Just looking for some consistency here.

parminder


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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 03:44:34 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 19:44:34 +1200
Subject: [governance] Freedom Online Conference Nairobi now live
In-Reply-To: <CALTAiTrtD8oyB3uZK+aJR4LrJwXgsE2heA9OpaTZSKamxk7dBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEkQTBgQ9w16YVjZnaY+kKJjYc8VS+e9ytu50XhrUO5fRMkYFA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALTAiTrtD8oyB3uZK+aJR4LrJwXgsE2heA9OpaTZSKamxk7dBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiC62NsDeUyohh2nxPDKV2qNgUcE3L8bdv0TXKyoDJ=pUA@mail.gmail.com>

Excellent transmission

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Joana Varon <joana at varonferraz.com> wrote:

> Very good transmission!!
>
> On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Lillian Nalwoga <lnalwoga at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>  Hello members,
>>
>> You can now follow the Freedom Online Conference Nairobi  live @
>> http://trincmedia.com/live/ and on twitter #ofKe , #FreedomOnlineKe
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Lillian
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> --
>
> Joana Varon Ferraz
> Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade (CTS-FGV)
> http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts/
>  <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/goog_946507056> www.freenetfilm.org
> @joana_varon
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 03:57:14 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 13:27:14 +0530
Subject: [governance] Freedom Online Conference Nairobi now live
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiC62NsDeUyohh2nxPDKV2qNgUcE3L8bdv0TXKyoDJ=pUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEkQTBgQ9w16YVjZnaY+kKJjYc8VS+e9ytu50XhrUO5fRMkYFA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALTAiTrtD8oyB3uZK+aJR4LrJwXgsE2heA9OpaTZSKamxk7dBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiC62NsDeUyohh2nxPDKV2qNgUcE3L8bdv0TXKyoDJ=pUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKTcMoKiq+9U7ZQgeu0uyrEQ1Y2fOWvVPZ7+iGzXdPFHUA@mail.gmail.com>

Very good transmission here, too.

-C

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

> Excellent transmission
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Joana Varon <joana at varonferraz.com> wrote:
>
>> Very good transmission!!
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Lillian Nalwoga <lnalwoga at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>  Hello members,
>>>
>>> You can now follow the Freedom Online Conference Nairobi  live @
>>> http://trincmedia.com/live/ and on twitter #ofKe , #FreedomOnlineKe
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Lillian
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>
>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>
>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> --
>>
>> Joana Varon Ferraz
>> Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade (CTS-FGV)
>> http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts/
>>  <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/goog_946507056> www.freenetfilm.org
>> @joana_varon
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 04:14:51 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 10:14:51 +0200
Subject: [governance] ICANN: 4 New gTLD Applications Withdrawn, 3 By Google
Message-ID: <CABBOhxqBuiqGScnrPzArecRQRLq2DxbiTJHUzuYwi050jbc_QA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.thedomains.com/2012/09/05/icann-4-new-gtld-applications-withdrawn-3-by-google/

According to ICANN’s site, four applications for new gTLD’s have been
withdrawn by the applicants so far, including three by Google.

The strings Google has withdrawn its new gTLD application for are:

.And

.Are

.Est

All of Google applications were submitted by Charleston Road Registry Inc.

The fourth withdrawn application belongs to KSB Aktiengesellschaft who
applied for .KSB
Fahd
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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Thu Sep  6 04:26:12 2012
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2012 16:26:12 +0800
Subject: [governance] Evaluating the IGC [Draft] #Sneak Preview
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiDjbDYF5MuJriHZSAiRNRdCxbnt5gPPA_BqU6X36yFR0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJwbTiDjbDYF5MuJriHZSAiRNRdCxbnt5gPPA_BqU6X36yFR0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50485E24.8090403@ciroap.org>

On 06/09/12 15:36, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
> This is just to advise that I am in the process of preparing an
> evaluation survey to assess the IGC. To get a sneak preview of the
> type of questions (we have left it open ended so you will not feel
> restricted/confined), please visit the etherpad at
> http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/IGC_2012_Survey
>
> Essentially the Background includes the vision and mission of the IGC
> and the questions are primarily based on the Objectives as set out in
> the Charter. This is still Draft and is being translated into an
> electronic survey.

This is a very good initiative which poses some key questions that are
on my mind too.  I still regard myself as a relative newcomer to the
IGC, despite having joined in 2006, because when the IGC was first
formed a few years earlier, it served a much more operative purpose as
one of the thematic caucuses of the Civil Society Plenary at WSIS, with
a very important role in that overall process (including for example
successfully nominating all of the civil society candidates to the WGIG).

Today it is more of a discussion forum than a representative body, and
this raises the question of whether it should remain so (and perhaps it
should - due to the now even greater diversity of our members than
during WSIS), and the subsidiary question of whether in that case there
should be some other coordinating peak body for civil society activism
on Internet governance issues - as this is also arguably needed (like a
CSISAC or an EDRI, but global).

This is one of the topics to be addressed at Best Bits
http://igf-online.net/bestbits, which (again, I promise!) I will post an
update about to this list soon.  I hope as many IGC members as possible
will be able to attend.

Let me know if you need help putting your draft into our Limesurvey.

-- 

*Dr Jeremy Malcolm
Senior Policy Officer
Consumers International | the global campaigning voice for consumers*
Office for Asia-Pacific and the Middle East
Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM, 7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg, TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur,
Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599

*Your rights, our mission – download CI's Strategy 2015:*
http://consint.info/RightsMission

@Consumers_Int | www.consumersinternational.org
<http://www.consumersinternational.org> |
www.facebook.com/consumersinternational
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 05:07:08 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 21:07:08 +1200
Subject: [governance] Freedom Online Conference Nairobi now live
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKTcMoKiq+9U7ZQgeu0uyrEQ1Y2fOWvVPZ7+iGzXdPFHUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEkQTBgQ9w16YVjZnaY+kKJjYc8VS+e9ytu50XhrUO5fRMkYFA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALTAiTrtD8oyB3uZK+aJR4LrJwXgsE2heA9OpaTZSKamxk7dBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiC62NsDeUyohh2nxPDKV2qNgUcE3L8bdv0TXKyoDJ=pUA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEP5zKTcMoKiq+9U7ZQgeu0uyrEQ1Y2fOWvVPZ7+iGzXdPFHUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiDuiEkv2FpHTJ3sQ=LZAYNw1ZA5n_vA-aH+ccRcwJtYwQ@mail.gmail.com>

Robert Guerra's speaking right now...:)

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar
<chaitanyabd at gmail.com>wrote:

> Very good transmission here, too.
>
> -C
>
> On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
> salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Excellent transmission
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Joana Varon <joana at varonferraz.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Very good transmission!!
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Lillian Nalwoga <lnalwoga at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Hello members,
>>>>
>>>> You can now follow the Freedom Online Conference Nairobi  live @
>>>> http://trincmedia.com/live/ and on twitter #ofKe , #FreedomOnlineKe
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Lillian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>>
>>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>>
>>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Joana Varon Ferraz
>>> Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade (CTS-FGV)
>>> http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts/
>>>  <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/goog_946507056> www.freenetfilm.org
>>> @joana_varon
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>
>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>
>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
>> P.O. Box 17862
>> Suva
>> Fiji
>>
>> Twitter: @SalanietaT
>> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
>> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 05:32:43 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 21:32:43 +1200
Subject: [governance] Evaluating the IGC [Draft] #Sneak Preview
In-Reply-To: <50485E24.8090403@ciroap.org>
References: <CAJwbTiDjbDYF5MuJriHZSAiRNRdCxbnt5gPPA_BqU6X36yFR0w@mail.gmail.com>
	<50485E24.8090403@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiBiakE_6+O4FsV3k0B9dJg2sRrRRbxKN4W0jxQMTvz_Qg@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Snip
>
> Let me know if you need help putting your draft into our Limesurvey.
>
The Survey has already been uploaded into Survey Monkey but the next survey
which will be focussed strategically on policy areas etc can go into the
Limesurvey. I am still working on the questions for the focal areas etc.

>
> --
>
> *Dr Jeremy Malcolm
> Senior Policy Officer
> Consumers International | the global campaigning voice for consumers*
> Office for Asia-Pacific and the Middle East
> Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM, 7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg, TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur,
> Malaysia
> Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
>
> *Your rights, our mission – download CI's Strategy 2015:*
> http://consint.info/RightsMission
>
> @Consumers_Int | www.consumersinternational.org |
> www.facebook.com/consumersinternational
>
> Read our email confidentiality notice<http://www.consumersinternational.org/email-confidentiality>.
> Don't print this email unless necessary.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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To be removed from the list, visit:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing

For all other list information and functions, see:
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 06:55:33 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 22:55:33 +1200
Subject: [governance] Evaluating the IGC [Survey 1 of 2012]
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiCknJKeZDfXhNvAwsA6fq5AADogf=npc1J+y=U=Yv-8OA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

This survey is designed to extract feedback from the IGC. It is designed to
evaluate how the IGC is facilitating the Objectives under the Charter.There
are 10 questions.  The Survey will run from the 6th September, 2012 to the
13th September, 2012.

You can access the Survey via  https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/IGCEvaluation

I encourage everyone to find time to complete this Survey.

I would also like to acknowledge and thank Chaitanya Dhareshwar one of our
new subscribers to the IGC from India for volunteering to put the questions
into the Survey Monkey.

Kind Regards

-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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To be removed from the list, visit:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing

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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 07:07:25 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 13:07:25 +0200
Subject: [governance] Evaluating the IGC [Survey 1 of 2012]
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiCknJKeZDfXhNvAwsA6fq5AADogf=npc1J+y=U=Yv-8OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJwbTiCknJKeZDfXhNvAwsA6fq5AADogf=npc1J+y=U=Yv-8OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxqf-bYAQvFbY-uoL+hx77c9cv3rQH8+ZdqKH_C7O3rEng@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Salanieta. I think questions 4 to 10 should have been
multiple-choice (unless I am not understanding something here).

Fahd

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> This survey is designed to extract feedback from the IGC. It is designed
> to evaluate how the IGC is facilitating the Objectives under the
> Charter.There are 10 questions.  The Survey will run from the 6th
> September, 2012 to the 13th September, 2012.
>
> You can access the Survey via
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/IGCEvaluation
>
> I encourage everyone to find time to complete this Survey.
>
> I would also like to acknowledge and thank Chaitanya Dhareshwar one of our
> new subscribers to the IGC from India for volunteering to put the questions
> into the Survey Monkey.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 07:09:22 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 23:09:22 +1200
Subject: [governance] Evaluating the IGC [Survey 1 of 2012]
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxqf-bYAQvFbY-uoL+hx77c9cv3rQH8+ZdqKH_C7O3rEng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJwbTiCknJKeZDfXhNvAwsA6fq5AADogf=npc1J+y=U=Yv-8OA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABBOhxqf-bYAQvFbY-uoL+hx77c9cv3rQH8+ZdqKH_C7O3rEng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiA3ahnHUQ_-m4FXVuiHEWQ73A0fK1kuO+eZGfuXGS+W6w@mail.gmail.com>

@Fahd, we had multiple choice last year but the feedback was that people
felt confined. So I decided to leave it open and not restrictive. Feel free
to give either short answers or otherwise. It's your perspective that we
are after.

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 11:07 PM, Fahd A. Batayneh
<fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>wrote:

> Thank you Salanieta. I think questions 4 to 10 should have been
> multiple-choice (unless I am not understanding something here).
>
> Fahd
>
> On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
> salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> This survey is designed to extract feedback from the IGC. It is designed
>> to evaluate how the IGC is facilitating the Objectives under the
>> Charter.There are 10 questions.  The Survey will run from the 6th
>> September, 2012 to the 13th September, 2012.
>>
>> You can access the Survey via
>> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/IGCEvaluation
>>
>> I encourage everyone to find time to complete this Survey.
>>
>> I would also like to acknowledge and thank Chaitanya Dhareshwar one of
>> our new subscribers to the IGC from India for volunteering to put the
>> questions into the Survey Monkey.
>>
>> Kind Regards
>>
>> --
>> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
>> P.O. Box 17862
>> Suva
>> Fiji
>>
>> Twitter: @SalanietaT
>> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
>> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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____________________________________________________________
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To be removed from the list, visit:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing

For all other list information and functions, see:
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 07:27:43 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 13:27:43 +0200
Subject: [governance] Re: Choice of venue for meetings
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiAWBAebx9UnHfALuygBOwDq0tC1CcQRmx2Mrgvcfzw=vA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALCecM8pPqoGxQ30tAhkD8wos=4=CP-9-rkOMnHhcLPzixqmNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJwbTiAWBAebx9UnHfALuygBOwDq0tC1CcQRmx2Mrgvcfzw=vA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxqWdN5=R2eLm6gZ_f+YFU4twyqf1noGHM8C3frSV-ppxg@mail.gmail.com>

Add to the list that some countries hosting events via their respective
governments do so as means to extend the term of the government or maybe
the term of the minister(s) working on the event.

Fahd

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:30 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

> @ Ginger, as I reflect on your post, these are some things that come to
> mind. There are numerous reasons why countries want to host global events.
> They could be because of:-
>
>
>    - convenience (there may be other meetings held in conjunction or
>    immediately preceding the meeting;
>    - affordability - cheaper to have it adjoining;
>    - accessibility - for meeting participants if they have been brought
>    in for other meetings;
>    - convergence of a pool of global knowledge manifesting in the form of
>    experts, resource persons, best practices, challenges etc which they can
>    draw from to develop certain areas in country;
>    - (from Liz's excerpt) showcasing national assets - it is natural for
>    countries to have a sense of patriotism and desire to show off their
>    country;
>    - if they have been subject to bad press or reported to have been
>    "mischievous", then to improve media relations etc;
>
> So bottom line the question is "what's in it for them?". I think the
> question is also a two way street. Where one must also examine the persons
> doing the selection because this also affects the type of decisions that
> are made. For instance, if  country A is at war  with country B, then there
> is a greater likelihood that country A if they have a say in the selection
> process will not want to country B to host such a global meeting.
>
> So it follows that it more or less is a subjective experience hence the
> need to discuss whether there should be a consistent set of rules that
> should be applicable when selecting host countries. And in the course of
> these discussions, it must also never be forgotten that sometimes
> engagement rather than confrontation can be a catalyst for change.
>
> Thoughts from the far seas,
> Sala
>
> On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I have been wondering how/why venues are chosen for global meetings.
>> Obviously, a host country must offer, and not every country will be willing
>> to invest the time, money and energy into the work involved, so options may
>> be limited. There are so many pros and cons for the topics/principles, the
>> host and the participants--it is mind-boggling.
>>
>> A (more or less) recent blog post 'No such thing as bad publicity'
>> http://www.diplomacy.edu/blog/no-such-thing-bad-publicity#comment-2258by Liz Galvez explored this question from a slightly different angle: why
>> would prospective hosts expose their vulnerabilities to public discussion?
>> With Azerbaijan on the horizon, I have revisited the topic, and you may
>> find it interesting as well.
>>
>> Does the choice of Azerbaijan as the venue for IGF 2012 affect your
>> decision to attend/not attend?
>>
>> An excerpt from Liz's post:
>> "It seems the temptation proves irresistible for the leaders of some
>> countries which are seldom in the global eye to push ahead with staging a
>> grand event to showcase their country’s assets. Their population can bask
>> in an orgy of nationalist sentiment and propaganda while the media will be
>> so carried away by the spectacular organisation, or the beauty of the
>> hostesses, or the excitement of the event itself, that they will ignore the
>> political context and any nasty goings-on beneath the surface.  They hope
>> the mismatch between official image and reality remains hidden. Or they may
>> simply underestimate the media’s appetite to ferret out bad news. But in
>> what world would anyone with even a remote understanding of independent
>> media expect a high-profile sports or cultural event to be covered purely
>> for its own  sake, particularly when the host country does its best to
>> smother controversial stories? Credibility is an essential element in any
>> image-building endeavour. Where it is missing, it is difficult to regain,
>> as the US Administration have learnt the hard way."
>>
>> Ginger
>>
>>
>> Ginger (Virginia) Paque
>>
>> VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
>> Diplo Foundation
>> Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
>> www.diplomacy.edu/ig
>>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 07:35:25 2012
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 07:35:25 -0400
Subject: [governance] Re: Choice of venue for meetings
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKQzVGAzqBuQZn21ofZ7rtCv-1mj+vF_927nW=vRBRKhLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALCecM8pPqoGxQ30tAhkD8wos=4=CP-9-rkOMnHhcLPzixqmNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJwbTiAWBAebx9UnHfALuygBOwDq0tC1CcQRmx2Mrgvcfzw=vA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CFC17D30BC59448CA8B8D60181A7D212@gtw8608f024389> <1513922266-1346880427-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1940184494-@b18.c6.bise6.blackberry>
 <CACAaNxhuGRk71eeF3Cm5uz4HrQC5O3b10UeSWDxu=4q8xN9S0g@mail.gmail.com> <CAEP5zKQzVGAzqBuQZn21ofZ7rtCv-1mj+vF_927nW=vRBRKhLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACAaNxgu-MG2oxx1ick0H4ix+0TOVZpoddH5VDa1=nz33t2+sg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar
<chaitanyabd at gmail.com> wrote:
> The Caucus doesn't get ANYTHING out of it?



no, nothing.



>
> That aside - what intangible benefits (if any) are derived from this
> process?

Which process are you asking about?

the IGF or the IGC, or the way that IGF host nations are selected?

-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel

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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 07:37:45 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:07:45 +0530
Subject: [governance] Re: Choice of venue for meetings
In-Reply-To: <CACAaNxgu-MG2oxx1ick0H4ix+0TOVZpoddH5VDa1=nz33t2+sg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALCecM8pPqoGxQ30tAhkD8wos=4=CP-9-rkOMnHhcLPzixqmNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiAWBAebx9UnHfALuygBOwDq0tC1CcQRmx2Mrgvcfzw=vA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CFC17D30BC59448CA8B8D60181A7D212@gtw8608f024389>
	<1513922266-1346880427-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1940184494-@b18.c6.bise6.blackberry>
	<CACAaNxhuGRk71eeF3Cm5uz4HrQC5O3b10UeSWDxu=4q8xN9S0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEP5zKQzVGAzqBuQZn21ofZ7rtCv-1mj+vF_927nW=vRBRKhLA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACAaNxgu-MG2oxx1ick0H4ix+0TOVZpoddH5VDa1=nz33t2+sg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKQ_XWQKBdUH5N2zTkCB-noNz0gx9cSeA0pOXmSe7Sp5Sw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, I meant The host nation selection process.

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:05 PM, McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar
> <chaitanyabd at gmail.com> wrote:
> > The Caucus doesn't get ANYTHING out of it?
>
>
>
> no, nothing.
>
>
>
> >
> > That aside - what intangible benefits (if any) are derived from this
> > process?
>
> Which process are you asking about?
>
> the IGF or the IGC, or the way that IGF host nations are selected?
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
> route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
>
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 07:43:54 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 13:43:54 +0200
Subject: [governance] Al-Jazeera Website Defaced by Pro-Syrian Hackers
Message-ID: <CABBOhxrhCfqDjZ1zfLS+U2y=S5ozAmx9o6hyDhE+YF6OH2F3fQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19488739

The Arabic website of news network al-Jazeera has been defaced, apparently
by hackers loyal to the Syrian regime.

Fahd
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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 07:45:11 2012
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 07:45:11 -0400
Subject: [governance] Re: Choice of venue for meetings
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKQ_XWQKBdUH5N2zTkCB-noNz0gx9cSeA0pOXmSe7Sp5Sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALCecM8pPqoGxQ30tAhkD8wos=4=CP-9-rkOMnHhcLPzixqmNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJwbTiAWBAebx9UnHfALuygBOwDq0tC1CcQRmx2Mrgvcfzw=vA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CFC17D30BC59448CA8B8D60181A7D212@gtw8608f024389> <1513922266-1346880427-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1940184494-@b18.c6.bise6.blackberry>
 <CACAaNxhuGRk71eeF3Cm5uz4HrQC5O3b10UeSWDxu=4q8xN9S0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEP5zKQzVGAzqBuQZn21ofZ7rtCv-1mj+vF_927nW=vRBRKhLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACAaNxgu-MG2oxx1ick0H4ix+0TOVZpoddH5VDa1=nz33t2+sg@mail.gmail.com> <CAEP5zKQ_XWQKBdUH5N2zTkCB-noNz0gx9cSeA0pOXmSe7Sp5Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACAaNxhBoaAGOwaBeRf1n+_snBf2iSy53oMpsoRkUCrOwLysmg@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 7:37 AM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar
<chaitanyabd at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, I meant The host nation selection process.

The way host nations are chosen is sort of a black box, it seems that
some countries volunteer, hoping to burnish their image or bring visitor
revenue, and there is some UN process whereby one is selected, and if two
or more volunteer, they work out which country gets which year.

there isn't a long line of nations volunteering for this, barely
enough to plan for a year or two out.

We don't get any intangible benefits per se, although some members
have a little holiday around the IGF.

Holiday in Baku??  I'm going to pass.

-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel

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From mueller at syr.edu  Thu Sep  6 13:12:59 2012
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 17:12:59 +0000
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <504853B4.6080300@itforchange.net>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net>
 <CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net>
 <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
 <5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net>
 <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
 <503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net>
 <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
 <504853B4.6080300@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>

Parminder, your responses are degenerating beyond the point where it is worth responding. You seem to be more interested in playing rhetorical games than in reaching agreement or improving understanding. I will point out the reasons I say these things and then suspend any further communication with you on these issues

[Milton L Mueller] Any law from ANY jurisdiction constraining or dictating ICANN’s action would have global effect, insofar as the global Internet relies on ICANN to administer the DNS.

Milton, In face of clear facts to the contrary, you continue to claim that EU's, India's, Ghana's, all of 192 government's, jurisdictions have similar implication and impact on ICANN. I dont think I need to labour to disprove this patently absurd proposition.


Ø  Read my sentence, which is a conditional statement and says that if "any law from any jurisdiction"

Ø  could "constrain or dictate ICANN's action" it would have global effect.

But just to continue with the present discussion on the .xxx case, even if the ICM registry was * not* US based, the porn industry majors could/ would have brought the case against ICANN for instituting .xxx (since the registry would of course have serviced domain name demands from the US among others). ICANN would still be forced to defend itself in the case, and if it lost the case to annul or modify .xxx agreement.


Ø  I have asked you two questions related to this that you have steadfastly ducked:

Ø  1) Do you think ICANN should be immune from antitrust? Yes or no.

Ø  2) What stops such a case from being brought in the EU? ICANN has offices in Brussels, and its "service" or operations could be considered global, thus in the EU.

It does not take a political scientist to understand that the same is not true vis a vis the jurisdiction of any other of 192 countries.


Ø  You have not made any argument to explain why this is true. You have merely asserted it.

Ø  The US antitrust case is in fact no different from an antitrust case that might be brought in the EU,

Ø  If indeed ICANN were engaged in restraint of the domain name trade in conjunction with a EU-based

Ø  registry, the effect would be exactly the same in both cases. ICANN's status as a California Corp.

Ø  makes no difference here.

The only unique thing about the US is the IANA contract. Please try to concentrate your fire on that.

IANA contract is a problem, but special application of US law and jurisdiction on all actions of ICANN is at least as big a problem. You cannot banish the 'problem' merely becuase you dont have a response to it.


And if your solution is to have 192 governments share that power, I suggest it will be a long time before most people involved in Internet matters support you.

One, you say above that ICANN is already equally subject to the jurisdiction of all the 192 governments. Are you not therefore contradicting yourself here?

Ø  No, either you are not reading carefully or you are playing games

Ø  I am talking about the sharing the power conferred by the IANA contract. 192 governments do not share that.

Ø  And applicability of antitrust law or other forms of territorial law to ICANN by 192 jursidictions is not "sharing" it is multiplying and fragmenting.

And if it indeed is already subject to 192 jurisdiction, even efficiency, since you dont recognise issues of equity and democracy

Ø  You lost me here. I am the one in favor of democracy (e.g., election of ICANN board), you are the one in favor of control by states.


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From pouzin at well.com  Thu Sep  6 20:34:16 2012
From: pouzin at well.com (Louis Pouzin (well))
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 02:34:16 +0200
Subject: [governance] When will ACTA II be fought out ?
Message-ID: <CA+EjHYoj8n6na5+HDgB_dCpJMhOTQaLJd59-pkh5=RySk_cATQ@mail.gmail.com>

Even though they got a rout on SOPA, ACTA, etc, the US IPR lobbies, as
expected, are stealthily cooking up ACTA II. Their strategy, however, is
now resorting to the well known divide and rule stereotype. It seems a bit
late to force an agreement before the US presidential election. But
whatever happens in November, the next USG is unlikely to change policy on
IPR. Watch out.

Louis

http://www.ip-watch.org/2012/09/06/us-congressional-push-for-release-of-tpp-text-us-pressuring-nations-bilaterally/?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=alerts
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 21:44:35 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 13:44:35 +1200
Subject: [governance] When will ACTA II be fought out ?
In-Reply-To: <CA+EjHYoj8n6na5+HDgB_dCpJMhOTQaLJd59-pkh5=RySk_cATQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYoj8n6na5+HDgB_dCpJMhOTQaLJd59-pkh5=RySk_cATQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiD5RCNJN6PRy6=FZmr6Wsg2eOst=vmHgvh+QSQdkEkSNg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Louis Pouzin (well) <pouzin at well.com>wrote:

> Even though they got a rout on SOPA, ACTA, etc, the US IPR lobbies, as
> expected, are stealthily cooking up ACTA II. Their strategy, however, is
> now resorting to the well known divide and rule stereotype. It seems a bit
> late to force an agreement before the US presidential election. But
> whatever happens in November, the next USG is unlikely to change policy on
> IPR. Watch out.
>
> Louis
>
>
> http://www.ip-watch.org/2012/09/06/us-congressional-push-for-release-of-tpp-text-us-pressuring-nations-bilaterally/?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=alerts
>
> Louis, there is legitimacy in what is being reported. The TPP where
> parties include the US, South Korea, Columbia, Australia, Brunei Darusalem,
> Chile, Malaysia, New Zealand, Peru and Singapore. Countries that have just
> recently joined the negotiations are Mexico and Canada. The US Secretary of
> State has been making the rounds around the Pacific rim for many reasons
> but one of the main ones being to advocate the TPP. The link that you
> mentioned where the TPP is being sold in return for Free Trade Agreements
> (FTA) is legitimate. Fouad in a separate post was true that it should not
> come as a surprise that since this is election year in the US, candidates
> that may have made a firm stance against SOPA/PIPA may also "wobble" and
> time will soon tell. Whilst I am not against Intellectual Property Rights
> advocacy, there are boundaries that one should consider where it infringes
> on things like "open internet", "fair use".
>

See Statement of Jose Fernandez  Assistant Secretary , Bureau of Economic
and Business Affairs that was issued on the 5th August 2012 that states the
official US position on the matter. In other words Fernandez is saying,
"Sign the TPP or forget free trade". In a separate post, I remember posting
on targeted sanctions etc etc. Whilst analysts have factored in the impact
on free trade and consumer rights with regards to access to information and
to knowledge (think of underserved communities who are accessing bodies of
knowledge via the internet like never before and whilst they have to deal
with issues such as access, availability, affordability etc this access
will now be further undercut by treaties like the TPP). We all know the
impact that policy has on communities, just yesterday as we were streaming
into the Freedom Online Kenya, it was interesting to hear Ambassador Olof
mention that India is an older democracy that even most European nation
states, what I found even more interesting was when he talked about how the
world has learnt from the impact of sanctions on the Balkans and how it led
to more "underworld activities"...no not vampires but illicit and criminal
trafficking etc.

But back to Fernandez's statements as published on 5 August, 2012.

*Strengthening the U.S.-Taiwan Economic Relationship*



Remarks

Jose W. Fernandez
Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Economic and Business Affairs

American Chamber of Commerce

Taipei, Taiwan

August 5, 2012


 ------------------------------

*I. Introduction*

Thank you. This is my first trip to Taiwan and I continue to marvel at the
numerous cultural and economic ties that bind our people. One of our ties
was illustrated to me as I read the paper this morning. I enjoyed seeing
that Jeremy Lin’s visit took top billing in the newspaper, and the meeting
between President Ma and I drew a little less attention.

Let me give you just one example that is illustrative of the larger U.S. –
Taiwan relationship. It is a great American tradition to start new
companies in a home garage. In an Irvine, California garage in 1988 Linksys
was born. The creators of this now ubiquitous line of home computer
networking devices were Taiwan immigrants Janie and Victor Tsao. At the
time they founded Linksys, they were also working as consultants
specializing in pairing U.S. technology vendors with manufacturers in
Taiwan. That pairing has become emblematic of the U.S. – Taiwan economic
relationship. The latest numbers show that two-way trade between the United
States and Taiwan in electrical machinery hovers around $23 billion per
year.

*II. Strategic Rebalancing Toward Asia*

While Taiwan has been exemplary as one of the so-called “Asian Tigers,” I
want to put our economic relationship with Taiwan in the larger Asian
context before discussing Taiwan specifically. That larger context is our
work on the Trans Pacific Partnership, and the Select USA initiative.

As you know, the global economic crisis of the past few years has pushed us
in the United States to pursue our own economic recovery. This is a
two-sided coin, with an eye toward regional trade liberalization on one
side, and concerted efforts to attract more foreign investment to the
United States on the other. At all levels of the U.S. government, we are
broadening and deepening our economic relationships throughout the Asia
Pacific region. We are acutely aware that reinvigorating our economy at
home goes hand in hand with partnering on economic growth abroad.

The United States has long been involved in developments in the Asia
Pacific region. We are proud that our contributions to regional security
here helped create the conditions that brought more people out of poverty
faster than anywhere else in history. That engagement continues today and
the futures of the United States and the Asia Pacific are inextricably
linked. As Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has highlighted, we are not
just a diplomatic or military power here. We are an economic force as well.
In 2010 alone, our exports to the Pacific Rim were over $320 billion,
supporting 850,000 American jobs.

But our work is not finished. One of our country’s great challenges in this
century will be to establish a stronger network of trade links and
practices around the Pacific Rim. Our recently enacted Free Trade
Agreements with South Korea and Colombia, and our commitment to the
Trans-Pacific Partnership, are clear demonstrations that we are here to
stay.

I am proud to note that the American Institute in Taiwan (AIT) has been a
very active promoter of these efforts. In fact, they have been so
successful in working to promote America’s economic relationship with
Taiwan that I was able to personally congratulate the former Director, Bill
Stanton, on winning my award for export promotion in 2011. He also received
the State Department’s coveted Cobb award for global trade promotion
efforts. That’s two awards in the same year to one man, something that
doesn’t happen very often in the State Department. The AIT team in Taipei
and Kaohsiung (“GOW shung”) is carrying on that tradition and I expect
great achievements from the incoming leadership team here in Taipei.

All of these individual efforts fit into our larger work toward regional
trade liberalization. Also supporting this effort is our commitment to the
Trans-Pacific Partnership.

Looking ahead to the next generation of trade agreements, we are aiming at
crafting an agreement that addresses new and emerging trade issues and
challenges. The Trans-Pacific Partnership, or TPP, includes the United
States, along with Australia, Brunei Darussalam, Chile, Malaysia, New
Zealand, Peru, Singapore, and Vietnam. It is a high-standard, broad-based
regional agreement. We see the TPP as the most credible pathway to broader
Asia-Pacific regional economic integration.

The agreement will include core issues traditionally found in trade
agreements, such as industrial goods, agriculture, and textiles as well as
rules on intellectual property, technical barriers to trade, labor, and the
environment. But it will also address cross-cutting issues not previously
found in trade agreements, such as making the regulatory systems of TPP
countries more compatible so U.S. companies can operate more seamlessly in
TPP markets. It will also help innovative, job-creating small- and
medium-sized enterprises participate more actively in international trade.
Equally important is addressing new emerging trade issues, such as trade
and investment in innovative products and services, and ensuring that
state-owned enterprises compete fairly with private companies and do not
distort competition in ways that put U.S. companies and workers at a
disadvantage.

The United States is participating in the TPP as the best vehicle to
advance our economic interests and to promote economic growth and
development in the critical Asia-Pacific region. Expanding U.S. exports is
critical to our economic recovery and to the creation and retention of
high-quality jobs in the United States. With its rapid growth and large
markets, there is no region with which expanding our trade is more vital
than the Asia Pacific.

The TPP countries recently announced the addition of Mexico and Canada to
the negotiations. Late last year Japan also formally expressed interest in
beginning consultations with TPP member countries with a view to possibly
joining the negotiations. Candidate countries for TPP must demonstrate
through their actions and through bilateral consultations with each TPP
country their readiness to meet the standards and objectives of the
agreement. Once those bilateral processes are concluded, the current TPP
partners must decide by consensus before a new member can participate. In
short, we are excited by the possibilities created in the Asia-Pacific by
the TPP, and are working very hard to make it a reality by the end of this
year.

Let’s move on to another program we just started, Select USA. So one side
of the coin of economic recovery is expanding opportunities for U.S.
companies to do business effectively abroad. The other side of that coin is
the work that we do at home to encourage investment in the United States.
The United States consistently ranks at the top of most major indicators
for its attractive business and investment climate. In fact, from 2006
through 2010, the United States received more FDI than any other country.
The FDI flow into the United States in 2010 - $228 billion - was more than
double the flow into any other country in the world, and despite economic
difficulties of the time, 49 percent greater than the FDI flow into the
United States in 2009. At the same time, total Taiwan direct investment
flow in the United States was over $5 billion in 2010, an increase of 14.7%
from 2009.

Under a program called SelectUSA, the U.S. Departments of Commerce and
State engage partners around the world, as I am doing here, to promote
investment into our dynamic economy. SelectUSA showcases how the United
States is the world’s premier business location and provides easy access to
federal-level programs and services related to business investment.

Why do I say that the United States is the world’s premier business
location? Because we are the world’s largest economy; we consistently rank
at the top of most major indicators for our attractive business and
investment climate; our own investment in research and development makes us
the world’s center for innovation; and our leadership in protecting
intellectual property with a transparent and predictable legal system makes
doing business in the U.S. both cost-efficient and secure. Also, one of the
strongest reasons will always be the quality of our higher education,
particularly in science and engineering. Taiwan people in the United States
are well aware of this: 80 percent have achieved some level of higher
education, particularly in these fields and in medicine. I understand that
the U.S. regulatory environment can be daunting to some investors, but
through our hardworking representatives at the American Institute in
Taiwan, and SelectUSA and other U.S. government partners back in
Washington, we can help connect investors with the business counseling and
training they may need to comply with applicable regulations.

We can also direct you to the different states’ economic development
agencies, making sure you get connected to the right partners for your
investment selection process.

*III. U. S. – Taiwan Economic Relations*

Where does Taiwan figure into this picture? How can Taiwan partner with us
and benefit from this wealth creation? Today, Taiwan is our 10th largest
trading partner and our 15th largest export market. It would surprise many
people but the United States actually trades more with Taiwan than with
France; and Taiwan-U.S. trade is at near the same level as India-U.S.
bilateral trade. The United States is Taiwan’s largest foreign investor,
and Taiwan companies have made significant investments in the United
States. Historically, the United States has been the strongest champion of
Taiwan’s participation in global trade bodies such as the World Trade
Organization and the APEC forum. Our strong economic relationship covers
more than six decades. Taiwan has been an invaluable partner in influencing
others to embrace reform and strive for economic growth.

In recent years, however, this immensely valuable relationship has hit some
bumps in the road that hinder our partnership and progress. We can’t afford
these bumps and need to make sure that they do not detract from efforts to
make full use of our potential. We were pleased to see that the Legislative
Yuan recently took action that will clear the path for Taiwan to establish
a maximum residue limit for ractopamine in beef, eliminating a serious
impediment to U.S. beef imports. U.S. trade agencies will be monitoring
implementation of the regulatory measures needed to allow U.S. beef imports
to resume. These steps will be important in helping to rebuild confidence
in our bilateral trade relationship.

We know from our own experience that adhering to bilateral and multilateral
trade commitments is not always easy, but it is essential to maintaining
the credibility that serves as the foundation of what has long been a
positive, constructive relationship between trading partners.

Of course our bilateral economic relationship goes well beyond this
particular issue and we have continued to engage Taiwan at the working
level and via our capable colleagues at AIT on the full range of important
bilateral trade and investment issues. For example, the United States
worked for many years in support of Taiwan’s candidacy to join the WTO
Government Procurement Agreement. These joint efforts were rewarded when
Taiwan acceded to the Agreement in 2009. Taiwan has already made many
reforms to its procurement practices, and we stand ready to assist as
Taiwan continues to harmonize its measures with global best practices with
regard to transparency, contract terms, and licensing.

Taiwan has made tremendous progress over the years in improving
intellectual property rights protection and enforcement, and the United
States has carried out significant bilateral cooperation activities on
intellectual property rights—IPR—issues. Still, challenges remain,
including with regard to online infringement and the theft of trade
secrets. During my time here in Taiwan I have visited companies that have
had their technology stolen and heard their stories. For U.S. firms the
protection of IPR is so vital because so many of our exports derive from
IPR. A recent study estimated that 75% of U.S. exports involve IPR. Taiwan
aspires to be an economy based on innovation, and together our unceasing
efforts will ensure that Taiwan’s IPR enforcement regime meets the highest
standards. Improved protection of trade secrets in Taiwan will help both
foreign and domestic firms be competitive and innovative in today’s
knowledge-based economy. The bottom line: we have made major progress over
the years on many critical issues when both sides have been prepared to
work together. The United States sincerely desires a reinvigorated trade
relationship with Taiwan. It’s already generally good, but we can do better.

Like the United States, Taiwan is also pursuing trade liberalization. We
understand the Ma Administration has indicated a desire to be considered
for the TPP in eight years. As a gold standard for future trade agreements
in the region, the TPP requires members to embrace ambitious and
comprehensive liberalization and open their markets to competition. We
commend President Ma for recognizing the importance of trade integration,
and for his expressed determination to push forward liberalization measures
that would help Taiwan make its case as a possible candidate for future
trade agreements.

Change will not be easy, but the benefits of liberalization are clear:
stronger and more competitive firms, better services, wider availability of
products at lower prices, greater efficiency, and smoother integration into
the world marketplace. More comprehensive economic liberalization will be
an essential component for securing Taiwan's economic future. Real
liberalization will demonstrate Taiwan's commitment to trade integration
and potential inclusion in various trade arrangements. This includes
comprehensive, bilateral FTAs—such as Taiwan's ongoing negotiations with
Singapore—which is an important first step. As Taiwan's leaders implement
meaningful market liberalization measures and pursue new trade agreements,
firm resolve and commitment to free market principles as a responsible WTO
member are essential attributes to live by. We look forward to deepening
our trade and economic interaction with Taiwan. We will support Taiwan as
it embraces these fundamental prerequisites to effective and meaningful
trade integration. Everyone in this room is an important element of what we
hope to do.

*IV. Next Steps & Conclusion*

Just as Janie and Victor Tsao understood when they founded Linksys nearly
25 years ago, trade between Taiwan and the United States is vital to the
prosperity of both. The United States and Taiwan have a long and positive
history of cooperation and many shared interests in the region. We are
hopeful that the positive recent steps Taiwan has taken to address the beef
issue are a demonstration of the sustained commitment that will be needed
to reenergize our bilateral trade dialogue. To be sure, Taiwan, like any
democracy, will face tough choices in order to live up to its international
obligations and to put its long-term economic interests above domestic
politics. Taiwan is a part of the Asia-Pacific region’s economic future. We
look forward to working with Taiwan as it builds cooperative and credible
partnerships throughout the region, including with the United States.



*Ends*

> ____________________________________________________________
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>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 21:45:38 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 13:45:38 +1200
Subject: [governance] When will ACTA II be fought out ?
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiD5RCNJN6PRy6=FZmr6Wsg2eOst=vmHgvh+QSQdkEkSNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYoj8n6na5+HDgB_dCpJMhOTQaLJd59-pkh5=RySk_cATQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJwbTiD5RCNJN6PRy6=FZmr6Wsg2eOst=vmHgvh+QSQdkEkSNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiDR3e-Aj=tPsw-fXaewmPOBG+6RKQUm1gvVNcRuMDwObA@mail.gmail.com>

p.s it certainly does'nt take a genius to know how Mexico will vote with
its stance in the NAFTA. ;)

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Louis Pouzin (well) <pouzin at well.com>wrote:
>
>> Even though they got a rout on SOPA, ACTA, etc, the US IPR lobbies, as
>> expected, are stealthily cooking up ACTA II. Their strategy, however, is
>> now resorting to the well known divide and rule stereotype. It seems a bit
>> late to force an agreement before the US presidential election. But
>> whatever happens in November, the next USG is unlikely to change policy on
>> IPR. Watch out.
>>
>> Louis
>>
>>
>> http://www.ip-watch.org/2012/09/06/us-congressional-push-for-release-of-tpp-text-us-pressuring-nations-bilaterally/?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=alerts
>>
>> Louis, there is legitimacy in what is being reported. The TPP where
>> parties include the US, South Korea, Columbia, Australia, Brunei Darusalem,
>> Chile, Malaysia, New Zealand, Peru and Singapore. Countries that have just
>> recently joined the negotiations are Mexico and Canada. The US Secretary of
>> State has been making the rounds around the Pacific rim for many reasons
>> but one of the main ones being to advocate the TPP. The link that you
>> mentioned where the TPP is being sold in return for Free Trade Agreements
>> (FTA) is legitimate. Fouad in a separate post was true that it should not
>> come as a surprise that since this is election year in the US, candidates
>> that may have made a firm stance against SOPA/PIPA may also "wobble" and
>> time will soon tell. Whilst I am not against Intellectual Property Rights
>> advocacy, there are boundaries that one should consider where it infringes
>> on things like "open internet", "fair use".
>>
>
> See Statement of Jose Fernandez  Assistant Secretary , Bureau of Economic
> and Business Affairs that was issued on the 5th August 2012 that states the
> official US position on the matter. In other words Fernandez is saying,
> "Sign the TPP or forget free trade". In a separate post, I remember posting
> on targeted sanctions etc etc. Whilst analysts have factored in the impact
> on free trade and consumer rights with regards to access to information and
> to knowledge (think of underserved communities who are accessing bodies of
> knowledge via the internet like never before and whilst they have to deal
> with issues such as access, availability, affordability etc this access
> will now be further undercut by treaties like the TPP). We all know the
> impact that policy has on communities, just yesterday as we were streaming
> into the Freedom Online Kenya, it was interesting to hear Ambassador Olof
> mention that India is an older democracy that even most European nation
> states, what I found even more interesting was when he talked about how the
> world has learnt from the impact of sanctions on the Balkans and how it led
> to more "underworld activities"...no not vampires but illicit and criminal
> trafficking etc.
>
> But back to Fernandez's statements as published on 5 August, 2012.
>
> *Strengthening the U.S.-Taiwan Economic Relationship*
>
>
>
> Remarks
>
> Jose W. Fernandez
> Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Economic and Business Affairs
>
> American Chamber of Commerce
>
> Taipei, Taiwan
>
> August 5, 2012
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *I. Introduction*
>
> Thank you. This is my first trip to Taiwan and I continue to marvel at the
> numerous cultural and economic ties that bind our people. One of our ties
> was illustrated to me as I read the paper this morning. I enjoyed seeing
> that Jeremy Lin’s visit took top billing in the newspaper, and the meeting
> between President Ma and I drew a little less attention.
>
> Let me give you just one example that is illustrative of the larger U.S. –
> Taiwan relationship. It is a great American tradition to start new
> companies in a home garage. In an Irvine, California garage in 1988 Linksys
> was born. The creators of this now ubiquitous line of home computer
> networking devices were Taiwan immigrants Janie and Victor Tsao. At the
> time they founded Linksys, they were also working as consultants
> specializing in pairing U.S. technology vendors with manufacturers in
> Taiwan. That pairing has become emblematic of the U.S. – Taiwan economic
> relationship. The latest numbers show that two-way trade between the United
> States and Taiwan in electrical machinery hovers around $23 billion per
> year.
>
> *II. Strategic Rebalancing Toward Asia*
>
> While Taiwan has been exemplary as one of the so-called “Asian Tigers,” I
> want to put our economic relationship with Taiwan in the larger Asian
> context before discussing Taiwan specifically. That larger context is our
> work on the Trans Pacific Partnership, and the Select USA initiative.
>
> As you know, the global economic crisis of the past few years has pushed
> us in the United States to pursue our own economic recovery. This is a
> two-sided coin, with an eye toward regional trade liberalization on one
> side, and concerted efforts to attract more foreign investment to the
> United States on the other. At all levels of the U.S. government, we are
> broadening and deepening our economic relationships throughout the Asia
> Pacific region. We are acutely aware that reinvigorating our economy at
> home goes hand in hand with partnering on economic growth abroad.
>
> The United States has long been involved in developments in the Asia
> Pacific region. We are proud that our contributions to regional security
> here helped create the conditions that brought more people out of poverty
> faster than anywhere else in history. That engagement continues today and
> the futures of the United States and the Asia Pacific are inextricably
> linked. As Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has highlighted, we are not
> just a diplomatic or military power here. We are an economic force as well.
> In 2010 alone, our exports to the Pacific Rim were over $320 billion,
> supporting 850,000 American jobs.
>
> But our work is not finished. One of our country’s great challenges in
> this century will be to establish a stronger network of trade links and
> practices around the Pacific Rim. Our recently enacted Free Trade
> Agreements with South Korea and Colombia, and our commitment to the
> Trans-Pacific Partnership, are clear demonstrations that we are here to
> stay.
>
> I am proud to note that the American Institute in Taiwan (AIT) has been a
> very active promoter of these efforts. In fact, they have been so
> successful in working to promote America’s economic relationship with
> Taiwan that I was able to personally congratulate the former Director, Bill
> Stanton, on winning my award for export promotion in 2011. He also received
> the State Department’s coveted Cobb award for global trade promotion
> efforts. That’s two awards in the same year to one man, something that
> doesn’t happen very often in the State Department. The AIT team in Taipei
> and Kaohsiung (“GOW shung”) is carrying on that tradition and I expect
> great achievements from the incoming leadership team here in Taipei.
>
> All of these individual efforts fit into our larger work toward regional
> trade liberalization. Also supporting this effort is our commitment to the
> Trans-Pacific Partnership.
>
> Looking ahead to the next generation of trade agreements, we are aiming at
> crafting an agreement that addresses new and emerging trade issues and
> challenges. The Trans-Pacific Partnership, or TPP, includes the United
> States, along with Australia, Brunei Darussalam, Chile, Malaysia, New
> Zealand, Peru, Singapore, and Vietnam. It is a high-standard, broad-based
> regional agreement. We see the TPP as the most credible pathway to broader
> Asia-Pacific regional economic integration.
>
> The agreement will include core issues traditionally found in trade
> agreements, such as industrial goods, agriculture, and textiles as well as
> rules on intellectual property, technical barriers to trade, labor, and the
> environment. But it will also address cross-cutting issues not previously
> found in trade agreements, such as making the regulatory systems of TPP
> countries more compatible so U.S. companies can operate more seamlessly in
> TPP markets. It will also help innovative, job-creating small- and
> medium-sized enterprises participate more actively in international trade.
> Equally important is addressing new emerging trade issues, such as trade
> and investment in innovative products and services, and ensuring that
> state-owned enterprises compete fairly with private companies and do not
> distort competition in ways that put U.S. companies and workers at a
> disadvantage.
>
> The United States is participating in the TPP as the best vehicle to
> advance our economic interests and to promote economic growth and
> development in the critical Asia-Pacific region. Expanding U.S. exports is
> critical to our economic recovery and to the creation and retention of
> high-quality jobs in the United States. With its rapid growth and large
> markets, there is no region with which expanding our trade is more vital
> than the Asia Pacific.
>
> The TPP countries recently announced the addition of Mexico and Canada to
> the negotiations. Late last year Japan also formally expressed interest in
> beginning consultations with TPP member countries with a view to possibly
> joining the negotiations. Candidate countries for TPP must demonstrate
> through their actions and through bilateral consultations with each TPP
> country their readiness to meet the standards and objectives of the
> agreement. Once those bilateral processes are concluded, the current TPP
> partners must decide by consensus before a new member can participate. In
> short, we are excited by the possibilities created in the Asia-Pacific by
> the TPP, and are working very hard to make it a reality by the end of this
> year.
>
> Let’s move on to another program we just started, Select USA. So one side
> of the coin of economic recovery is expanding opportunities for U.S.
> companies to do business effectively abroad. The other side of that coin is
> the work that we do at home to encourage investment in the United States.
> The United States consistently ranks at the top of most major indicators
> for its attractive business and investment climate. In fact, from 2006
> through 2010, the United States received more FDI than any other country.
> The FDI flow into the United States in 2010 - $228 billion - was more than
> double the flow into any other country in the world, and despite economic
> difficulties of the time, 49 percent greater than the FDI flow into the
> United States in 2009. At the same time, total Taiwan direct investment
> flow in the United States was over $5 billion in 2010, an increase of 14.7%
> from 2009.
>
> Under a program called SelectUSA, the U.S. Departments of Commerce and
> State engage partners around the world, as I am doing here, to promote
> investment into our dynamic economy. SelectUSA showcases how the United
> States is the world’s premier business location and provides easy access to
> federal-level programs and services related to business investment.
>
> Why do I say that the United States is the world’s premier business
> location? Because we are the world’s largest economy; we consistently rank
> at the top of most major indicators for our attractive business and
> investment climate; our own investment in research and development makes us
> the world’s center for innovation; and our leadership in protecting
> intellectual property with a transparent and predictable legal system makes
> doing business in the U.S. both cost-efficient and secure. Also, one of the
> strongest reasons will always be the quality of our higher education,
> particularly in science and engineering. Taiwan people in the United States
> are well aware of this: 80 percent have achieved some level of higher
> education, particularly in these fields and in medicine. I understand that
> the U.S. regulatory environment can be daunting to some investors, but
> through our hardworking representatives at the American Institute in
> Taiwan, and SelectUSA and other U.S. government partners back in
> Washington, we can help connect investors with the business counseling and
> training they may need to comply with applicable regulations.
>
> We can also direct you to the different states’ economic development
> agencies, making sure you get connected to the right partners for your
> investment selection process.
>
> *III. U. S. – Taiwan Economic Relations*
>
> Where does Taiwan figure into this picture? How can Taiwan partner with us
> and benefit from this wealth creation? Today, Taiwan is our 10th largest
> trading partner and our 15th largest export market. It would surprise
> many people but the United States actually trades more with Taiwan than
> with France; and Taiwan-U.S. trade is at near the same level as India-U.S.
> bilateral trade. The United States is Taiwan’s largest foreign investor,
> and Taiwan companies have made significant investments in the United
> States. Historically, the United States has been the strongest champion of
> Taiwan’s participation in global trade bodies such as the World Trade
> Organization and the APEC forum. Our strong economic relationship covers
> more than six decades. Taiwan has been an invaluable partner in influencing
> others to embrace reform and strive for economic growth.
>
> In recent years, however, this immensely valuable relationship has hit
> some bumps in the road that hinder our partnership and progress. We can’t
> afford these bumps and need to make sure that they do not detract from
> efforts to make full use of our potential. We were pleased to see that the
> Legislative Yuan recently took action that will clear the path for Taiwan
> to establish a maximum residue limit for ractopamine in beef, eliminating a
> serious impediment to U.S. beef imports. U.S. trade agencies will be
> monitoring implementation of the regulatory measures needed to allow U.S.
> beef imports to resume. These steps will be important in helping to rebuild
> confidence in our bilateral trade relationship.
>
> We know from our own experience that adhering to bilateral and
> multilateral trade commitments is not always easy, but it is essential to
> maintaining the credibility that serves as the foundation of what has long
> been a positive, constructive relationship between trading partners.
>
> Of course our bilateral economic relationship goes well beyond this
> particular issue and we have continued to engage Taiwan at the working
> level and via our capable colleagues at AIT on the full range of important
> bilateral trade and investment issues. For example, the United States
> worked for many years in support of Taiwan’s candidacy to join the WTO
> Government Procurement Agreement. These joint efforts were rewarded when
> Taiwan acceded to the Agreement in 2009. Taiwan has already made many
> reforms to its procurement practices, and we stand ready to assist as
> Taiwan continues to harmonize its measures with global best practices with
> regard to transparency, contract terms, and licensing.
>
> Taiwan has made tremendous progress over the years in improving
> intellectual property rights protection and enforcement, and the United
> States has carried out significant bilateral cooperation activities on
> intellectual property rights—IPR—issues. Still, challenges remain,
> including with regard to online infringement and the theft of trade
> secrets. During my time here in Taiwan I have visited companies that have
> had their technology stolen and heard their stories. For U.S. firms the
> protection of IPR is so vital because so many of our exports derive from
> IPR. A recent study estimated that 75% of U.S. exports involve IPR. Taiwan
> aspires to be an economy based on innovation, and together our unceasing
> efforts will ensure that Taiwan’s IPR enforcement regime meets the highest
> standards. Improved protection of trade secrets in Taiwan will help both
> foreign and domestic firms be competitive and innovative in today’s
> knowledge-based economy. The bottom line: we have made major progress over
> the years on many critical issues when both sides have been prepared to
> work together. The United States sincerely desires a reinvigorated trade
> relationship with Taiwan. It’s already generally good, but we can do better.
>
> Like the United States, Taiwan is also pursuing trade liberalization. We
> understand the Ma Administration has indicated a desire to be considered
> for the TPP in eight years. As a gold standard for future trade agreements
> in the region, the TPP requires members to embrace ambitious and
> comprehensive liberalization and open their markets to competition. We
> commend President Ma for recognizing the importance of trade integration,
> and for his expressed determination to push forward liberalization measures
> that would help Taiwan make its case as a possible candidate for future
> trade agreements.
>
> Change will not be easy, but the benefits of liberalization are clear:
> stronger and more competitive firms, better services, wider availability of
> products at lower prices, greater efficiency, and smoother integration into
> the world marketplace. More comprehensive economic liberalization will be
> an essential component for securing Taiwan's economic future. Real
> liberalization will demonstrate Taiwan's commitment to trade integration
> and potential inclusion in various trade arrangements. This includes
> comprehensive, bilateral FTAs—such as Taiwan's ongoing negotiations with
> Singapore—which is an important first step. As Taiwan's leaders implement
> meaningful market liberalization measures and pursue new trade agreements,
> firm resolve and commitment to free market principles as a responsible WTO
> member are essential attributes to live by. We look forward to deepening
> our trade and economic interaction with Taiwan. We will support Taiwan as
> it embraces these fundamental prerequisites to effective and meaningful
> trade integration. Everyone in this room is an important element of what we
> hope to do.
>
> *IV. Next Steps & Conclusion*
>
> Just as Janie and Victor Tsao understood when they founded Linksys nearly
> 25 years ago, trade between Taiwan and the United States is vital to the
> prosperity of both. The United States and Taiwan have a long and positive
> history of cooperation and many shared interests in the region. We are
> hopeful that the positive recent steps Taiwan has taken to address the beef
> issue are a demonstration of the sustained commitment that will be needed
> to reenergize our bilateral trade dialogue. To be sure, Taiwan, like any
> democracy, will face tough choices in order to live up to its international
> obligations and to put its long-term economic interests above domestic
> politics. Taiwan is a part of the Asia-Pacific region’s economic future. We
> look forward to working with Taiwan as it builds cooperative and credible
> partnerships throughout the region, including with the United States.
>
>
>
> *Ends*
>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 00:36:01 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 16:36:01 +1200
Subject: [governance] Thank you Civil Society representatives to the MAG
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiABJmTTxcqDCXinnODMgbUZgri55x-+9c_zLR5xvgC5iQ@mail.gmail.com>

Subject was originally: "Re: FOR MAG Representatives -Fwd: Consolidated
Themes MAG Consultations [FINAL] "

Dear All,

I would like to take this time to acknowledge the excellent efforts that
Civil Society representatives to the MAG have been doing so far. You all
deserve to be commended and thanked for the excellent work in taking
forward the views of your colleagues that was raised via this listserv as
well. It is also pleasing to see the huge number of workshops that are
being organised in Baku and I am sure the discussions are bound to be
stimulating and will enable the sharing of best practices amongst those
that attend the various forums.

Thank you also to all in the IGC that contributed to help shaping the
discussions pre Baku. As you know we had consolidated our suggestions and
sent them to the various MAG working Groups in late April and on 1st May
2012.

Kind Regards,

Sala
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 3:49 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

> *Attention to MAG members*,
>
> This was put together by the IGC through various responses to the threads,
> skypes, wiki for the MAG Working Groups on the last occassion and am
> re-sending this.  You can keep a tab on the general pulse of things and
> factor this into your discussions where necessary.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 4:29 AM
>
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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 02:30:10 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 09:30:10 +0300
Subject: [governance] When will ACTA II be fought out ?
In-Reply-To: <CA+EjHYoj8n6na5+HDgB_dCpJMhOTQaLJd59-pkh5=RySk_cATQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYoj8n6na5+HDgB_dCpJMhOTQaLJd59-pkh5=RySk_cATQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50499472.7050508@gmail.com>

Why do you think this is the case?
On 2012/09/07 03:34 AM, Louis Pouzin (well) wrote:
> But whatever happens in November, the next USG is unlikely to change 
> policy on IPR. Watch out.


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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Fri Sep  7 03:43:47 2012
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 08:43:47 +0100
Subject: [governance] ICANN: 4 New gTLD Applications Withdrawn, 3 By
 Google
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxqBuiqGScnrPzArecRQRLq2DxbiTJHUzuYwi050jbc_QA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABBOhxqBuiqGScnrPzArecRQRLq2DxbiTJHUzuYwi050jbc_QA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <pl1jbEYzWaSQFA8V@internetpolicyagency.com>

In message 
<CABBOhxqBuiqGScnrPzArecRQRLq2DxbiTJHUzuYwi050jbc_QA at mail.gmail.com>, at 
10:14:51 on Thu, 6 Sep 2012, Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com> 
writes
>According to ICANN’s site, four applications for new gTLD’s have 
>been withdrawn by the applicants so far, including three by Google.
>
>The strings Google has withdrawn its new gTLD application for are:
>
>.And
>
>.Are
>
>.Est

These are all ISO 3166-3 strings, and should never have been applied 
for.

There's another (.idn), which needs to be withdrawn. Maybe that's one of 
the remaining two that haven't been identified yet.

>All of Google applications were submitted by Charleston Road Registry 
>Inc.
>
 >The fourth withdrawn application belongs to KSB Aktiengesellschaft who 
 >applied for .KSB

But this one isn't (an ISO3166-3 string).

-- 
Roland Perry

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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 03:55:07 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 10:55:07 +0300
Subject: [governance] =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Why_=2Ecom_Still_Doesn=92t_Have_a_T?=
 =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?hick_Whois?=
Message-ID: <CABBOhxpLOv1m9b+e_92RUjb3EBCDXF7acMV3gCr6YUhzN4NpRA@mail.gmail.com>

http://domainincite.com/10300-why-com-still-doesnt-have-a-thick-whois

ICANN’s board of directors quizzed staff about the lack of a “thick” Whois
obligation in Verisign’s .com contract, according to meeting minutes
released on August 30, 2012.

Fahd
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 05:32:41 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 12:32:41 +0300
Subject: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
In-Reply-To: <8CF594AB7D16D52-1250-B8DC@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CA+C8XCJbnq9_aCu7tMT=f_39XC2iuh-07GoyM=vHtdh1JNZfyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8CF58F1FC2F34A2-458-6FA3@webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com> <8CF5940776C882B-1250-B6AE@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>
 <CABBOhxor5aV7jOpcfgrp+vUi3yFGpP3YbYfGNCG1P0hg0gp8Fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8CF59472BFFDABE-1250-B82E@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com> <CABBOhxom7-UK_D8dDUTKMT_6pdbXps-v8TGuR=98OzVOSZRqyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8CF594AB7D16D52-1250-B8DC@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CABBOhxq_ZYX-GsMbK9WC-8KCAix7VVLxhnPrRxB4YP8ioM1brA@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Ronald.

Reading the article, it is a bit shocking since this was the exact scenario
during the days of Ben Ali. Even when the article mentions Salafist
Muslims, Tunisia does not have hardcore extreme Salafists. This all comes
as a surprise to me.

I just returned back from Cairo yesterday, and every time I took a taxi, I
seized the opportunity to open a dialogue with the taxi driver regarding
the situation in Egypt now vs. during Mubarak's regime. While they all hate
Mubarak for what he did to Egypt, they agree that Egypt was much safer
during his days. However, they claim that Egypt has become less safe
nowadays since those who commit all sorts of bad acts are in fact followers
and mercenaries of Mubarak, and they are trying to revenge for him as means
to convince the Egyptians that the days of Mubarak were much better.

So it makes me wonder, is the case in Tunisia the same? Are those
restricting freedom of speech followers and mercenaries of Ben Ali and his
wife, while the government is not fully aware of the situation since they
are focused on resurrecting the country?

I guess media is like a cube, it covers a story from one angle while not
focusing - or neglecting at times - on the cube at-large.

Fahd

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com> wrote:

> Dear Fahd --
>
>  Here below is the latest Tunisia Monitoring Group statement on the
> situation. I had argued internally that it was too long and detailed for an
> exercise in public communication, but it does provide the chapter and verse
> to answer your questions on what we base our concerns. It is also available
> in Arabic and French on the TMG web site.
>
>  Bests, Rony Koven
>
>  *Old-style repression resurfaces to threaten freedom of expression in
> new Tunisia, says IFEX-TMG*
>
> [image: A hundred Tunisian journalists gathered on 22 August in the
> Kasbah, Tunis to criticising appointments in the public media.]
> A hundred Tunisian journalists gathered on 22 August in the Kasbah, Tunis
> to criticising appointments in the public media. (El Watan)
>
>  (IFEX-TMG) - 29 August 2012 - In the wake of recent government
> appointments to heads of prominent media outlets, as well as attacks on
> journalists, writers and artists, the International Freedom of Expression
> Exchange Tunisia Monitoring Group (IFEX-TMG), a coalition of 21 IFEX
> members, expresses serious concern over what has been a wave of setbacks
> for freedom of expression in Tunisia.
>
> The IFEX-TMG strongly condemns the increasing use of violence and threats
> against journalists, artists and writers by police and ultra-conservative
> groups, and the government's failure to put an end to the impunity of those
> carrying out these attacks. Furthermore, members of the media are in the
> midst of an ongoing battle to safeguard the freedoms gained during the
> democratic transition period, after the revolution.
>
> *Lack of transparency and consultation*
>
> On 22 August 2012, the Tunisian government appointed Imane Bahroun as the
> head of National Television and Lotfi Touati, a former security officer, as
> director of media group Dar Assabah, the company which publishes two
> influential daily newspapers and a weekly magazine.
>
> The government had relieved former Dar Assabah director, Kamel Sammari<http://www.leaders.com.tn/article/kamel-sammari-toujours-en-poste-a-la-tete-de-dar-assabah-un-sursis?id=9121>,
> of his duties despite plans by the company's board to discuss the issue on
> 15 September 2012. The move was strongly condemned by journalists and
> public figures, who protested outside the building for several days and ran
> blank front pages in *Assabbah* and *Le Temps* in solidarity. The
> National Syndicate for Tunisian Journalists (SNJT) has strongly condemned
> the removal and has since called for a strike on 15 September 2012 to
> express its concerns about the erosion of media freedoms.
>
> Both of these new appointments were made without consultation with
> relevant media bodies such as the SNJT, who along with several political
> parties, rejected the decision as lacking transparency. This is the second
> time the government has appointed directors of public media unilaterally
> and without consultation, after appointments were made to public service
> media in January 2012<http://ifex.org/tunisia/2012/01/16/revoke_appointments/>.
> These were later rescinded after a public outcry.
>
> The IFEX-TMG considers the appointments a setback on promises made by the
> government to act transparently and to safeguard media freedom. "Instead of
> introducing fair media laws after proper consultation, the government has
> created a legislative dead zone, and given itself sole freedom to exploit
> it," said Rohan Jayasekera of Index on Censorship, a member of the
> IFEX-TMG.
>
> *Arrests and intimidation in the workplace*
>
> On 25 August 2012, the Court of Appeal in Tunis issued an order to arrest
> Sami Fehri <http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/08/25/234174.html>,
> the director of Attounisia TV station on charges of financial impropriety
> at a production company he co-owned that was contracted by the national TV
> station prior to the revolution. His arrest came two days after he was told
> the government was annoyed by his satirical programme the *Political Logic
> *, in which he criticised the government and Ennahda party leaders
> including Rachid Al-Ghannouchi. Fehri declared before his arrest that Lutfi
> Zaitoun, the Prime Minister's media advisor, called him and asked him to
> suspend the programme. If convicted, he faces up to ten years in prison<http://en.rsf.org/tunisia-over-eager-court-violates-27-08-2012,43283.html>
> .
>
> According to Fehri's lawyer, the arrest violated the Tunisian Penal Code
> and the accused was not given the right to defend himself nor to be
> informed about the charges against him. “The lawyer's explanation shows the
> case is purely political,” said the Tunis Centre for Freedom of Press.
>
> Other journalists have been pressured at work. On 21 August 2012,
> Boutheina Gouia, who presents the News and Rumour programme on national
> radio, was informed by her boss that she was suspended for hosting SNJT
> officials whom she invited to discuss the latest appointment of managers to
> the national TV and *Assabah* newspaper.
>
> The guests on the programme criticised the government's approach to
> dealing with the public media. “There has been a change in the attitude of
> employees with the national radio, it looks like a policy of intimidation
> has succeeded,” Gouia told the IFEX-TMG.
>
> As part of the pattern of intimidation, previously on 6 July 2012, Nadia
> Al-Hadawi, a journalist at the national radio, was prevented from entering
> the building where she was supposed to present her morning programme with
> well-known writer Naziha Rjiba, a critic of the government.
>
> The IFEX-TMG says the suspension of Gouia appears to be an arbitrary act
> designed to punish her for exercising her right to freedom of expression,
> and an attempt to deter others from criticising government actions.
>
> *Physical and verbal attacks by police and Salafist groups*
>
> The IFEX-TMG is also alarmed at a number of recent physical and verbal
> attacks on journalists that have taken place in Tunis and other cities,
> coming at the hands of police, union members and ultra-conservative
> religious groups (also referred to as Salafists.) On 6 August 2012, Monji
> Akasha, a journalist with Sfax Radio, was attacked by some of the Housing
> and Planning Office's union members while covering strikes in the Sfax
> area.
>
> Also on 6 August, journalist Sihem al-Mohammedi and photographer Abdul
> Hamid Al-Omary from Al-Hiwar Attounisi TV station, journalist Nai'ma
> Al-Sharmeeti from Arabiske TV station, and journalist Seif Eddin Al-Ameri
> from Akhir Khabar online news site were physically attacked by police on
> Avenue Bourguiba while covering the violent dispersal of protestors by
> police officers. Al-Omary suffered injuries to his legs after being badly
> beaten by the police.
>
> Around the same time, on 5 August, Tunisian blogger Lina ben Mhenni was
> reportedly deliberately targeted and beaten by police<http://atunisiangirl.blogspot.se/2012/08/assaulted-by-cops.html> during
> a demonstration on Avenue Bourguiba.
>
> On 14 August 2012, ultra-conservative Islamists attacked the comedian
> Lutfi Al-Abdali and prevented him from presenting his show in the town of
> Manzil Bourguiba after they claimed he was offensive to Islam.
> On 23 August 2012, a group of Salafist men physically attacked and
> severely beat prominent poet Sghir Awlad Ahmed after he appeared on a
> programme on Attounisia TV in which he criticised Ennahda and its leaders.
> Afterwards, Awlad Ahmed said, “No officers or officials will be saved from
> the bombs of my poetry and prose if they continue to turn a blind eye to
> such attacks.”
>
> On 24 August 2012, poet Mohammed Al-Hadi Al-Waslati was attacked by a
> group of Salafist men in Tunis. He was later taken to hospital and is still
> in a critical condition.
>
> In an interview broadcast on 25 August 2012 on Express FM Radio, the
> Minister of Culture, Mehdi Mabrouk, stated that the phenomenon of Salafist
> attacks has to be confronted but claimed the situation was under control.
> This contradicts the reality that attacks are reportedly on the increase.
>
> The IFEX-TMG calls on the authorities, including the Ministry of Culture,
> to investigate these attacks and bring the perpetrators to justice in order
> to create a safe environment in which journalists, artists and writers can
> work freely, without threat or censorship.
>
> The IFEX-TMG once again calls on the government to implement Decree
> 2011-115 (also known as the new Press Code), especially article 14, which
> guarantees the protection of journalists from harassment and attacks and
> criminalises any act of violence against them.
>
> “We think that the government is buying time with too many promises and no
> actions. We are worried about freedom of the press in Tunisia. Many factors
> indicate that that there is a setback regarding freedom of expression.
> Attacks on writers, journalists and artists continue without any punishment
> or action. This situation takes us back to 1988 when Ben Ali had a U-turn
> on freedom of expression. We must fight against that,” says SNJT Chair
> Najiba Hamrouni.
>
> The IFEX-TMG states that by implementing the media laws which came into
> force in November 2011, better safeguards would be put in place to protect
> freedom of expression. It therefore urges the government to implement
> Decree 2011-115 and Decree 2011-116, which laid the groundwork for a newly
> independent broadcast media with the creation of the Independent High
> Authority for Audiovisual Communications (HAICA), which will have the power
> to appoint directors of the public media.
> [image:
> http://ifex.org/middle_east_north_africa/2010/06/30/tmg_new_2010_90.jpg]<http://ifex.org/tunisia/tmg/>IFEX
> Tunisia Monitoring Group <http://ifex.org/tunisia/tmg/>
> Virginie Jouan, Chair
> on behalf of the World Association of Newspapers and News Publishers
> (WAN-IFRA)
> c/o campaigns (@) ifex.org
> http://www.facebook.com/IFEXTMG
>
>
> @IFEXTMG <http://www.twitter.com/#%21/IFEXTMG>
>
>
> Arabic Network for Human Rights Information <http://www.anhri.net>
> ARTICLE 19 <http://www.article19.org/>
> Bahrain Center for Human Rights <http://www.bahrainrights.org>
> Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies <http://www.cihrs.org>
> Canadian Journalists for Free Expression <http://www.cjfe.org>
> Cartoonists Rights Network International<http://www.cartoonistsrights.org/>
>
> Egyptian Organization for Human Rights <http://www.eohr.org>
> Freedom House <http://www.freedomhouse.org>
> Index on Censorship <http://www.indexoncensorship.org>
> International Federation of Journalists <http://www.ifj.org>
> International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions <http://www.ifla.org>
> International Press Institute  <http://www.freemedia.at/>
> International Publishers Association<http://www.internationalpublishers.org>
>
> Journaliste en danger <http://www.jed-afrique.org>
> Maharat Foundation <http://www.maharatfoundation.org>
> Media Institute of Southern Africa  <http://www.misa.org>
> Norwegian PEN <http://www.norskpen.no>
> World Association of Community Radio Broadcasters - AMARC<http://www.amarc.org>
>
>
> World Association of Newspapers and News Publishers<http://www.wan-ifra.org>
>
> World Press Freedom Committee <http://www.wpfc.org>
> Writers in Prison Committee, PEN International<http://www.pen-international.org>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>
> To: Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com>
> Cc: IG Caucus <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
> Sent: Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:34 am
> Subject: Re: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
>
>  Thank you Koven. I withdraw the term "claims" from my previous e-mail.
>
> Fahd
>
> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> And on what basis would you contend the contrary ?
>>
>>  I'm an active member of the Tunisia Monitoring Group, and we have noted
>> the reluctance of the new authorities to enact meaningful free speech/press
>> freedom measures.I refer you to various TMG alerts on the situation. The
>> resignation in frustration of Kamel Labidi as head of the official body
>> formed to promote media freedom measures speaks volumes. He is about to
>> testify on the deterioration of the situation before the UN Human Rights
>> Council in Geneva. When I was in Tunis for World Press Freedom Day this
>> May, lack of official commitment to furthering media freedom was obvious.
>> There are numerous well-documented concrete signs and examples.
>>
>>  Bests, Rony Koven
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>
>> To: Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com>
>> Cc: IG Caucus <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>> Sent: Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:14 am
>> Subject: Re: [governance] global events in non-democratic countries
>>
>>  Koven,
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Koven Ronald <kovenronald at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> (snip)
>>>
>>>  We had the same debate over holding the World Summit on the
>>> Information Society in Tunis. I do think that going there and letting the
>>> world see the real nature of the Ben Ali regime did prepare world opinion
>>> for the need for a revolution, *even if freedom of expression isn't
>>> doing so well in Tunisia now.*
>>>
>>
>> On what basis did you base these claims?
>>
>> Fahd
>>
>
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From vladar at diplomacy.edu  Fri Sep  7 08:31:41 2012
From: vladar at diplomacy.edu (Vladimir Radunovic)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 14:31:41 +0200
Subject: [governance] Net neutrality debate goes to the ITU WCIT
Message-ID: <00d601cd8cf4$bd8521a0$388f64e0$@diplomacy.edu>

Dear colleagues,

As you might have followed, ETNO (the European association of telecom
operators) has submitted a proposal within ITU WCIT process asking the ITR
to allow a multi-tier Internet - i.e. that  '...the operators are free to
negotiate commercial agreements beyond best effort' as their chair
Gambardella explained. 

It is a very interesting move: the telecom operators asking for a global
regulation on net neutrality (well, against it, in fact) to prevent moves of
the national regulations...

I have reflected on both the subject and the process in my recent blog:
http://www.diplomacy.edu/blog/net-neutrality-debate-goes-itu-wcit
I would appreciate your views (you can use comments option on the blog page
for easier records)

Best,

	Vlada




***
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on contemporary issues and challenges in theory and practice of diplomacy.
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***

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
 
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Internet Governance and e-Diplomacy
DiploFoundation 
email: vladar at diplomacy.edu 
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_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/




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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 15:41:24 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 22:41:24 +0300
Subject: [governance] Google to Open First Latin America Data Centre in
 Chile
Message-ID: <CABBOhxoZr_w5SYEqHaYasTEmQHuRfQ5oNaPtYV6L=Xc=D-S6=g@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-19518307

Search giant Google has decided to base its first Latin American data
centre in Chile, near the capital Santiago.

Fahd
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 15:51:57 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 22:51:57 +0300
Subject: [governance] The Global Web Index
Message-ID: <CABBOhxqfAJK7jitcof26rMVyRCo9CZ-6CsJu+rYE5sq8J+tkwg@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-19478298

http://www.webfoundation.org/projects/the-web-index/

Sweden tops Tim Berners-Lee's web index

Fahd
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From sana.pryhod at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 16:06:13 2012
From: sana.pryhod at gmail.com (Oksana Prykhodko)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 23:06:13 +0300
Subject: [governance] The Global Web Index
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxqfAJK7jitcof26rMVyRCo9CZ-6CsJu+rYE5sq8J+tkwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABBOhxqfAJK7jitcof26rMVyRCo9CZ-6CsJu+rYE5sq8J+tkwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+C8XCKo6VdQVJiU-m0nnT39vOQo88DSxVLfJ6cbLyiV-DdStQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you very much, Fahd!

Very interesting information)

Best regards,
Oksana

2012/9/7 Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>:
> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-19478298
>
> http://www.webfoundation.org/projects/the-web-index/
>
> Sweden tops Tim Berners-Lee's web index
>
> Fahd
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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From fahd.batayneh at gmail.com  Sat Sep  8 02:15:56 2012
From: fahd.batayneh at gmail.com (Fahd A. Batayneh)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 09:15:56 +0300
Subject: [governance] United Airlines 'Network Outage' Snarls Air Travel
Message-ID: <CABBOhxoVH46Q=dWqTZ6Ff0b_SiCpmjFkz2Yc45+0vO2db9JDhg@mail.gmail.com>

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57502077-92/united-airlines-network-outage-snarls-air-travel/

This is the ugly side of relying heavily on technology.

Fahd
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From wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de  Sat Sep  8 07:25:14 2012
From: wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Kleinw=E4chter=2C_Wolfgang=22?=)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2012 13:25:14 +0200
Subject: [governance] UNDESA
References: <CABBOhxqfAJK7jitcof26rMVyRCo9CZ-6CsJu+rYE5sq8J+tkwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID:  <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8010CD282@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>

FYI
 
http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/usg/index.shtml
 
wolfgang

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From kovenronald at aol.com  Sat Sep  8 08:16:01 2012
From: kovenronald at aol.com (Koven Ronald)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 08:16:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [governance] UNDESA
In-Reply-To: <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8010CD282@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
References: <CABBOhxqfAJK7jitcof26rMVyRCo9CZ-6CsJu+rYE5sq8J+tkwg@mail.gmail.com> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8010CD282@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
Message-ID: <8CF5BD2D855290A-EF0-2BFA8@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com>

Wolfgang --


What do you reckon this means in policy terms affecting cyber-freedom ?


Bests, Rony



-----Original Message-----
From: "Kleinwächter, Wolf
 gang" <wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
To: governance <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
Sent: Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:26 pm
Subject: [governance] UNDESA


FYI
 
http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/usg/index.shtml
 
wolfgang


 
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From william.drake at uzh.ch  Sat Sep  8 08:49:56 2012
From: william.drake at uzh.ch (William Drake)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 14:49:56 +0200
Subject: [governance] UNDESA
In-Reply-To: <8CF5BD2D855290A-EF0-2BFA8@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CABBOhxqfAJK7jitcof26rMVyRCo9CZ-6CsJu+rYE5sq8J+tkwg@mail.gmail.com> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8010CD282@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> <8CF5BD2D855290A-EF0-2BFA8@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4EEF79DE-2D77-4BB7-860A-65806C13CC90@uzh.ch>

China pays only 3.189% of the UN budget but apparently has a lock on the UnderSec General slot, pretty bon marché for the world's second largest economy….

Bill


On Sep 8, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Koven Ronald wrote:

> Wolfgang --
> 
> What do you reckon this means in policy terms affecting cyber-freedom ?
> 
> Bests, Rony
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Kleinwächter, Wolf 
> gang" <wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
> To: governance <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
> Sent: Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:26 pm
> Subject: [governance] UNDESA
> 
> FYI
>  
> http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/usg/index.shtml
>  
> wolfgang
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From avri at ella.com  Sat Sep  8 10:53:27 2012
From: avri at ella.com (Avri Doria)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 10:53:27 -0400
Subject: [governance] Fwd: [] The New WCITLeaks
References: <97F541CE86D742D789DCA51364C4FED3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6237F675-1D9D-4D5E-AC1A-1E758BB26F59@ella.com>



Begin forwarded message:

> 
> Subject: [WCIT] The New WCITLeaks
> Date: 6 September 2012 11:58:16 EDT
> 

> All,
> 
> I am pleased to announce a major update to WCITLeaks.org, our site to host leaked ITU documents.
> 
> Allow me especially to draw your attention to our new section on resources from civil society. Our hope is to build out this section with a lot of policy analysis and advocacy resources from a broad spectrum of civil society.
> 
> We invite you to take the opportunity of this update to send us the documents you think are important. If you feel so inspired, we could also use your help publicizing the site.
> 
> Many thanks!
> 
> Eli Dourado
> Research Fellow
> Mercatus Center
> George Mason University

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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Sat Sep  8 16:54:16 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 08:54:16 +1200
Subject: [governance] The TPP is worse than ACTAand SOPA/ was When will ACTA
 II be fought out ?
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiAggSHTJc3+jSMuWiPtmxVs7QVUVn6=V1xGjMK9rJft8A@mail.gmail.com>

The TPP will be worse than the SOPA. See the analysis by EFF:

   -
   https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/08/tpp-creates-liabilities-isps-and-put-your-rights-risk



There have been other reports, see:


   -
   http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/27/pacific-free-trade-deal
   -
   http://www.alternet.org/story/156059/trans-pacific_partnership%3A_under_cover_of_darkness%2C_a_corporate_coup_is_underway


 Pay particular attention to the "NAFTA" on steroids bit. What is also
interesting is the news that Russia has just signed an MoU with the US
strengthening greater partnership, notwithstanding the support that it got
from the US in joining the WTO, You can imagine that if Russia is persuaded
to join the TPP then the likelihood that they will receive the relevant
traction to widen the circle of the TPP Party/Parade will definitely cause
the concerns that was raised by the EFF to be a reality in the not too
distant future. This means ISP liabilities amongst a host of other things.


For developing countries, the concept of "free trade" may sound lucrative
but the reality is that it only disadvantages one (the loser).


I find the US position on this to be schizophrenic because on one end they
are proclaiming an open and free internet and taking extraordinary measures
to criticise threats to an open internet yet  are going to extraordinary
lengths to go around the world by sending their highest political officer
to gain momentum for the TPP.


It brings to mind that nations at the end of the day are about interests
and "as long as it suits them". I will also hasten to add that there are
many citizens in the US who are also wanting greater transparency around
the TPP negotiations as it is likely to impact the architecture of the
Internet and the rules of the game.


Kind Regards,

Sala
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Sat Sep  8 21:02:13 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 13:02:13 +1200
Subject: [governance] Business Class for Human Rights?
In-Reply-To: <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8010CD1BC@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
References: <1346245938.124121609@apps.rackspace.com>
	<2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8010CD1B5@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
	<2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8010CD1BC@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiAJnuucQ9T-C25xR2CcohZiiZ+o_FMBpZ7_vWzFMYUR3A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Wolfgang,

I think that there is a distinction between what ordinary access is. Take
Finland where they hold that 1MB access of Broadband as a Human Right.
Whilst 1MB is a human right in Finland it is not so for much of the world
where access, availability, affordability is still an issue. Recently talks
about US FCC proposed Universal Service Funds on global submarine cable
investments to benefit much of the developing world where they land had
been met with much criticism. (sigh)

The reality is all Telcos all over the world charge different prices for
different products and the more the bandwidth and increase in QoS, the more
you pay. If we take Finland's position and say X Bandwidth is a human right
and therefore either (FREE) or heavily subsidised by Government, then
anything on top of it is chargeable to whoever wants ti pay for it...would
be commercial sense.

On the other hand declaring access as a human right may mean getting
massive subsidies for global submarine deployment in developing countries
but of course I am dreaming...lol

But on the issue raised by Luigi Gambardella, it follows that a proposal by
the European Network Operators Association (ETNO) on the principle that
Sender Party pays in terms of Traffic is similar to the principle of
Calling Party pays. The irony is that the link mentions that there is
significant traffic sent to Europe from the US which will mean that the US
would be placed in a "checkmate" position.

The EC and the US have no doubt been at loggerheads where it comes to the
issue of taxation and the US of course has since the passage of the US
Congress's Tax Freedom Act 1998[ (*authored by Representative Christopher
Cox and Senator Ron Wyden and signed into law on October 21 1998 by then
President Clinton*) which following expiry continued to be reauthorised and
it most recent reauthorisation) was in October 2007 where this has been
extended till 2014] consistently held that taxation for them would be from
source, which means "no tax" as opposed to EC's attempts to tax at
consumption.

Cheers,
Sala

There are many reasons for the US to oppose the ETNO on this front.
On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 4:24 AM, "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang" <
wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de> wrote:

> Will the ETNO/WCIT proposal lead to  a mechanism where we have different
> classes for use of the human right to freedom of expression and to
> communicate? And even more: If you introduce a "business class" you have to
> introduce a checkpoint to seperate business from eceonomy and this can be
> done only via content control and DPI and leads directly to censorship. Any
> comments?
>
>
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57501754-38/euro-isps-defend-new-fees-as-business-class-internet-q-a/
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From parminder at itforchange.net  Sun Sep  9 02:30:13 2012
From: parminder at itforchange.net (parminder)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 12:00:13 +0530
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com> <50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net> <CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com> <50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <504853B4.6080300@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <504C3775.10709@itforchange.net>


On Thursday 06 September 2012 10:42 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
>
> Parminder, your responses are degenerating beyond the point where it 
> is worth responding.
>

You are just getting desperate, Milton...
>
> You seem to be more interested in playing rhetorical games than in 
> reaching agreement or improving understanding.
>

Meaning, rather than simply agreeing with your most untenable 
proposition about parity of application of jurisdiction over ICANN 
between US and all other 191 states.

> I will point out the reasons I say these things and then suspend any 
> further communication with you on these issues
>
>     */[Milton L Mueller] Any law from ANY jurisdiction constraining or
>     dictating ICANN’s action would have global effect, insofar as the
>     global Internet relies on ICANN to administer the DNS./*
>
>
> Milton, In face of clear facts to the contrary, you continue to claim 
> that EU's, India's, Ghana's, all of 192 government's, jurisdictions 
> have similar implication and impact on ICANN. I dont think I need to 
> labour to disprove this patently absurd proposition.
>
> ØRead my sentence, which is a conditional statement and says that if 
> "any law from any jurisdiction"
>
> Øcould "constrain or dictate ICANN's action" it would have global effect.
>

Your above statement - 'If' any law from any jurisdiction 'could' 
constrain or dictate ICANN's action, it would have global effect - says 
nothing at all other that that 'ICANN's actions have global effect', 
something which no one disputes. What other meaning does this sentence 
carry?

  What is under disputation is - laws from '*/which/*' jurisdiction can 
constraint or dictate ICANN's '/*global*/' actions? You say that laws 
from all 192 country jurisdictions have the 'same' (or at least similar) 
effect as from US's jurisdiction of 'constraining or dictating ICANN's 
/*global*/ action'. This is what I call as a /*patently absurd 
proposition. */

> But just to continue with the present discussion on the .xxx case, 
> even if the ICM registry was * not* US based, the porn industry majors 
> could/ would have brought the case against ICANN for instituting .xxx 
> (since the registry would of course have serviced domain name demands 
> from the US among others). ICANN would still be forced to defend 
> itself in the case, and if it lost the case to annul or modify .xxx 
> agreement.
>
> ØI have asked you two questions related to this that you have 
> steadfastly ducked:
>
> Ø1) Do you think ICANN should be immune from antitrust? Yes or no.
>

Of course ICANN should be subject to all kinds of public interest laws, 
as every entity should be - anti-trust, but also others, like those 
aimed at preserving and deepening public domain..... ( thus being 
prevented from giving off generic names like school, kid, beauty, cloud 
etc as private tlds).

> Ø2) What stops such a case from being brought in the EU? ICANN has 
> offices in Brussels, and its "service" or operations could be 
> considered global, thus in the EU.
>

First of all, you are cleverly skipping examples of India, Ghana and 
Bangladesh that I used, and only employing EU's case becuase ICANN has 
an office there... Your argument can be challenged simply on this 
ground, what about the other countries, especially the developing ones 
where ICANN chooses not to have an office. (Equity, Milton, equity, dont 
lose sight of this simple democratic value!)

On the other hand, even if ICANN has a Brussels office, this fact does 
not put EU's jurisdiction over ICANN anywhere close to a similar level 
to US's. Apart from the fact that, if the push comes to shove, ICANN can 
simply close or shift Brussels office,  offshore offices have often 
claimed lack of control over and accountability for parent bodies 
decisions vis a vis the jurisdictions in which they are located.  (This 
is well known, but if you want examples, I can give them.)

> It does not take a political scientist to understand that the same is 
> not true vis a vis the jurisdiction of any other of 192 countries.
>
> ØYou have not made any argument to explain why this is true. You have 
> merely asserted it.
>

No, I did make a clear argument using the scenario of an .xxx related 
case being brought in a Bangladesh court. Pl see my last email to which 
you respond. But you completely ignored that argument.

> ØThe US antitrust case is in fact no different from an antitrust case 
> that might be brought in the EU,
>

Completely wrong. For such a case brought in the EU, even if .xxx 
registry was based in EU, (1) ICANN is not obliged to defend the case 
(2) even if .xxx was to lose the case, it is the registry that will have 
to renege from the ICANN agreement, ICANN would have to do 'nothing'. 
However if the case is lost in the US, ICANN itself has to undertake 
certain actions- and also keep the judicial verdict in mind for future 
actions - something which is incongruent with ICANN's global governance 
status. That is the point.

On the other hand, and I said this in the previous email as well, which 
you seem to read selectively, even if .xxx registry was not in the US, 
the porn industry could still have brought the case to a US court 
against ICANN- .xxx agreement, which is simply not possible vis a vis 
any other country jurisdiction.

> ØIf indeed ICANN were engaged in restraint of the domain name trade in 
> conjunction with a EU-based
>
> Øregistry, the effect would be exactly the same in both cases. ICANN's 
> status as a California Corp.
>
> Ømakes no difference here.
>

see above
>
> snip
>
> And if it indeed is already subject to 192 jurisdiction, even 
> efficiency, since you dont recognise issues of equity and democracy
>
> ØYou lost me here. I am the one in favor of democracy (e.g., election 
> of ICANN board), you are the one in favor of control by states.
>

I am glad to have an elected board if you can assemble the electorate in 
a manner that is equitous and then ensure fair polling. Please tell me 
your proposal. As for 'control by the states' I am happy to have any 
kind of direct democracy not only in IG space but also all other spaces 
of global governance (your view on this please). And till we have it, 
instead of one country dictating to the world, representational 
democracy will do (while all efforts at national and international level 
should be kept up to see that these purported 'representatives' are 
indeed democratically so). Imperfect democracy and representativity 
cannot be taken as an excuse for perpetuating hegemony and one-country 
dictatorship.

with regards

parminder

>
>

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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Sun Sep  9 05:34:58 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 12:34:58 +0300
Subject: [governance] UNDESA
In-Reply-To: <4EEF79DE-2D77-4BB7-860A-65806C13CC90@uzh.ch>
References: <CABBOhxqfAJK7jitcof26rMVyRCo9CZ-6CsJu+rYE5sq8J+tkwg@mail.gmail.com> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8010CD282@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> <8CF5BD2D855290A-EF0-2BFA8@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com> <4EEF79DE-2D77-4BB7-860A-65806C13CC90@uzh.ch>
Message-ID: <504C62C2.8070602@gmail.com>

Power politics rules. Kinda like the US with Bush and Bolton that saw 
the dumping of the Development Decades and the launch of the easy to 
measure Millennium Development Goals (of course putting an ex-CIA person 
to run it) so this is just par for the course, so to speak...
On 2012/09/08 03:49 PM, William Drake wrote:
> China pays only 3.189% of the UN budget but apparently has a lock on 
> the UnderSec General slot, pretty bon marché for the world's second 
> largest economy….
>
> Bill
>
>
> On Sep 8, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Koven Ronald wrote:
>
>> Wolfgang --
>>
>> What do you reckon this means in policy terms affecting cyber-freedom ?
>>
>> Bests, Rony
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Kleinwächter, Wolf
>> gang" <wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de 
>> <mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de>>
>> To: governance <governance at lists.igcaucus.org 
>> <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>>
>> Sent: Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:26 pm
>> Subject: [governance] UNDESA
>>
>> FYI
>>   
>> http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/usg/index.shtml
>>   
>> wolfgang
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>       governance at lists.igcaucus.org  <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>       http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>       http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>       http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email:http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>> governance at lists.igcaucus.org <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>> http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
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>>
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>

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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Sun Sep  9 07:38:58 2012
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 07:38:58 -0400
Subject: [governance] Best Bits - 3-4 November, Days Hotel, Baku, Azerbaijan
Message-ID: <C665A89C-F5D5-4FC7-9BEC-6186ED702E63@ciroap.org>

Following on from my earlier "save the date" message, I would like to confirm that "Best Bits", a strategic gathering of NGOs around Internet governance and Internet principles, will be taking place at the Days Hotel, Azerbaijan on 3-4 November 2012, and that Internet Governance Caucus members are warmly invited to participate.  There is a website (currently a pad, though that may change) for the event at http://igf-online.net/bestbits and a mailing list at http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/bestbits.

The main motivation for this meeting was the recognition by a number of individuals and groups of the potential benefits of a "big tent" gathering that would bring together NGOs and experts from global North and South who are working on Internet policy advocacy from different perspectives, and who could benefit from broadening both their input and their outreach through an event like this.  Rather than detracting from the diversity of these approaches, the event will seek to share and build upon the "best bits" of each of them.

But rather than "just" networking, tangible outputs are also expected from the event: firstly finalisation of the civil society statement of Internet governance principles that we announced our intention to draft at last year's IGF (coordinated by Wolfgang Kleinwächter), and a statement to the ITU WCIT on the revision of the ITRs (coordinated by Bill Drake).  We are also soliciting background briefing papers on the topics of discussion that Andrew Puddephatt will be compiling as a resource for those attending.

Please visit http://igf-online.net/bestbits to read more about the agenda for the meeting, and the motivations behind it.  In lieu of a formal registration form, you can add your name to the pad if you will be coming.  At this stage no further requests for travel assistance are likely to be able to be considered, as a number of existing requests are still pending, so you are asked to cover your own travel expenses.  However you can benefit from our group rate at the hotel (contact me about this), and the IGF's visa on arrival procedure.

Please feel free to share this announcement through your other networks.  Thanks, and we look forward to seeing many of you at Best Bits and the IGF.

-- 
Dr Jeremy Malcolm
Senior Policy Officer
Consumers International | the global campaigning voice for consumers
Office for Asia-Pacific and the Middle East
Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM, 7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg, TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599

Your rights, our mission – download CI's Strategy 2015: http://consint.info/RightsMission

@Consumers_Int | www.consumersinternational.org | www.facebook.com/consumersinternational

Read our email confidentiality notice. Don't print this email unless necessary.
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From bdelachapelle at gmail.com  Sun Sep  9 08:52:10 2012
From: bdelachapelle at gmail.com (Bertrand de La Chapelle)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 14:52:10 +0200
Subject: [governance] UNDESA
In-Reply-To: <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8010CD282@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
References: <CABBOhxqfAJK7jitcof26rMVyRCo9CZ-6CsJu+rYE5sq8J+tkwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8010CD282@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
Message-ID: <CAGF_KH_BV5f93uEnvb=Ym1Jchu0dDHd9erUmLjXTtHLN1Kp4GA@mail.gmail.com>

Successor to Sha Zukang ... (Mr "the IGF is uniiiiique")

B.

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 1:25 PM, "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang" <
wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de> wrote:

> FYI
>
> http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/usg/index.shtml
>
> wolfgang
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
____________________
Bertrand de La Chapelle
Internet & Jurisdiction Project Director, International Diplomatic Academy (
www.internetjurisdiction.net)
Member, ICANN Board of Directors
Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32

"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de Saint
Exupéry
("there is no greater mission for humans than uniting humans")
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Sun Sep  9 14:50:57 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 06:50:57 +1200
Subject: [governance] FRIENDLY REMINDER Evaluating the IGC [Survey 1 of
 2012]
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiCOmqer4DxqvMjfvfjQ+ekYPmM7Uc4J_86omUcZf1kvxw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

This is a friendly reminder that we will be closing the Survey soon and it
is important for you to have your say in assessing whether the IGC is
meeting its objectives under the Charter.

This Survey will run till the 13th September, 2012. Thank you to those who
have filled in the Survey. For those that have yet to do so, please take
the time to fill it:  https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/IGCEvaluation

Kind Regards,
Sala

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> This survey is designed to extract feedback from the IGC. It is designed
> to evaluate how the IGC is facilitating the Objectives under the
> Charter.There are 10 questions.  The Survey will run from the 6th
> September, 2012 to the 13th September, 2012.
>
> You can access the Survey via
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/IGCEvaluation
>
> I encourage everyone to find time to complete this Survey.
>
> I would also like to acknowledge and thank Chaitanya Dhareshwar one of our
> new subscribers to the IGC from India for volunteering to put the questions
> into the Survey Monkey.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Sun Sep  9 15:10:24 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 07:10:24 +1200
Subject: [governance] #UN members /was Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling ....
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiCxepUp0v+jcggMOftRs8yKO2S4nEx+HL0fKjpBaXXh=w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I just thought I should point out that there are 193 members of the UN, see
http://www.un.org/en/members/growth.shtml with South Sudan being its most
recent inclusion in 2011.

Kind Regards,
Sala
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From qshatti at gmail.com  Sun Sep  9 16:00:32 2012
From: qshatti at gmail.com (Qusai AlShatti)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:00:32 +0300
Subject: [governance] Fellowship Program for the First Arab IGF Meeting in
 Kuwait
In-Reply-To: <CAC2SYrN6wHD-EZGN2Tbkc9mve1JxvWe45rnYr1MenSKCS8wjhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC2SYrN6wHD-EZGN2Tbkc9mve1JxvWe45rnYr1MenSKCS8wjhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC2SYrNni09K1LYQ3W-7QPgQekQL09z7d0TmgbJQU-2EnRRRUg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All:
We would like to announce the fellowship program for the first Arab IGF
meeting in Kuwait. Find attached two documents: The fellowship eligibility
document and Applicantion. Applicants who would require support to attend
the first Arab IGF meeting They should read the eligibility document, fill
the application and forward it to the following email:
fellowships at igfarab.org . We would like to note that the fellowship program
covers only accomodation and/or air travel. Any further expenses are not
included. We would like to note also that the fellowship program have
limited funding,

Best Regards,

Qusai AlShatti
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From lmcknigh at syr.edu  Sun Sep  9 16:41:01 2012
From: lmcknigh at syr.edu (Lee W McKnight)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 20:41:01 +0000
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <504C3775.10709@itforchange.net>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net>
 <CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net>
 <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
 <5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net>
 <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
 <503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net>
 <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
 <504853B4.6080300@itforchange.net>
 <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>,<504C3775.10709@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B135E25@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>

Hey Parminder,

If Milton's signing off, I'll sign on for one more attempt.

My aim is not to encourage lawsuits against the hegemon's proxy ICANN - but I feel them coming on anyway, with the .xxx one just the tip of the hegemon's melting iceberg.  (I'm enjoying this 70s flashback, don't get to use the word hegemon twice in one sentence often these days : )

So here's my free legal counsel for you: anyone anywhere can play.

Just as there was nothing to prevent Google or Yahoo, or earlier Compuserve being taken to court in France or Brazil, or Germany and Italy, and senior executives threatened, tried, sentenced and/or subject to arrest if they set foot in those countries - meaning even if they had no staff there, but just passed through say the Frankfurt airport, or stopped in Rome for a vacation  -  so too could ICANN staff be subject to arrest; and ICANN fined for example, should it not obey a court order in Pakistan or India or anywhere else.

We can review the specific circumstances in the various cases I mentioned in passing if you want, but basically the message is as the Internet and Internet services pervades more deeply into all nation's daily lives, then we should not be surprised when ICANN is, eventually, challenged in various nation's courts. Most readily where the organization has an establishment, meaning staff as in Brussels and Australia. But even absent staff presence, I could roll out 100 hypothetical scenarios on how ICANN decisions could be challenged, in Pakistani or Indian, or Brunei's, really any nation's legal system.

Just cuz it's a non-profit with a SoCal HQ does not mean the organization is exempt from - any - legal sanction, anywhere.

Whether the balance of power over the administration of changes to the root zone file, and/or the creation of this or that new gtld, should be a matter of hundreds of national jurisdictions, or handled through some form of global collective action, is indeed the question. But while I am practicing law without a license here, as the saying goes in US domestic politics, at least I am making reality based statements.  Every single thing ICANN does could be challenged in any national court.  Winning a case, and/or explaining to a judge or jury why a case was brought, is of course never a sure thing. But the ability in principle of Indian courts to rule on cases in which Indian citizens, businesses, and/or government agencies claim injury, is not in any way impaired by the location of ICANN's HQ.

ICANN, on the other hand, if established under international public or private law, could indeed gain various immunities, which its actions do not now enjoy. Milton's 100% right to say careful what we wish for here, since moving to a treaty or international convention as the source of ICANN's legal status, could just as easily make ICANN less responsive as more responsive to national jurisdictions, and individuals. ANY national jurisdiction. But that is a possibility and not a certainty, as it would depend on the specifics agreed to by nations signing onto that hypothetical treaty.

If you don't believe me, just ask any practicing international (private) lawyer. I'm guessing her answer would be another question: how deep are your pockets? : ) But anyone with enough money to make the challenge to for example - any - gtld string, can follow ICANN procedures, or they can turn to their own national courts. Although those courts might find it annoying if they are dragged into the middle of an arcane dispute if remedies from within the ICANN system were not exhausted first.

Unfortunately, like I said some time back, this whole dialogue has gotten - more or less nowhere - since apparently it is more fun to flash back to the 80s or hegemonic 70s than try to make sense of what should be done next, to align ICANN and other elements of Internet governance more closely with all of the global communities that are affected by those decisions.

Since there has been no new or original suggestions made, then we do seem to be stuck in a time warp. A domestic US non-profit corporation, albeit one that strives mightily to - should I say sucker, or invite? : ) - people from around the world to do the heavy volunteer lifting to keep the global net up and operating, is the main game in the global Internet governance village, still.

Seeing as apparently noone has a better idea, or has even concrete suggestions on how to get from here to there, there being a more globally equitable future, then yeah we are stuck.  Bummer.

Or maybe, I repeat again, this dialogue, while at times fun, really suggests it is time to get serious about Norbert's enhanced cooperation task force idea to figure a way forward. Since none of us are managing to do any better, absent that. imho.   If we are counting on the ITU to do so in December....well I got a few virtual bridges for sale that are more solid.  Better to give the (IGF-responsive) task force idea a shot, I suggest.

Lee

________________________________
From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] on behalf of parminder [parminder at itforchange.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 2:30 AM
To: Milton L Mueller
Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Subject: Re: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs


On Thursday 06 September 2012 10:42 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
Parminder, your responses are degenerating beyond the point where it is worth responding.

You are just getting desperate, Milton...
You seem to be more interested in playing rhetorical games than in reaching agreement or improving understanding.

Meaning, rather than simply agreeing with your most untenable proposition about parity of application of jurisdiction over ICANN between US and all other 191 states.

I will point out the reasons I say these things and then suspend any further communication with you on these issues

[Milton L Mueller] Any law from ANY jurisdiction constraining or dictating ICANN’s action would have global effect, insofar as the global Internet relies on ICANN to administer the DNS.

Milton, In face of clear facts to the contrary, you continue to claim that EU's, India's, Ghana's, all of 192 government's, jurisdictions have similar implication and impact on ICANN. I dont think I need to labour to disprove this patently absurd proposition.


Ø  Read my sentence, which is a conditional statement and says that if "any law from any jurisdiction"

Ø  could "constrain or dictate ICANN's action" it would have global effect.

Your above statement - 'If' any law from any jurisdiction 'could' constrain or dictate ICANN's action, it would have global effect - says nothing at all other that that 'ICANN's actions have global effect', something which no one disputes. What other meaning does this sentence carry?

 What is under disputation is - laws from 'which' jurisdiction can constraint or dictate ICANN's 'global' actions? You say that laws from all 192 country jurisdictions have the 'same' (or at least similar) effect as from US's jurisdiction of 'constraining or dictating ICANN's global action'. This is what I call as a patently absurd proposition.


But just to continue with the present discussion on the .xxx case, even if the ICM registry was * not* US based, the porn industry majors could/ would have brought the case against ICANN for instituting .xxx (since the registry would of course have serviced domain name demands from the US among others). ICANN would still be forced to defend itself in the case, and if it lost the case to annul or modify .xxx agreement.


Ø  I have asked you two questions related to this that you have steadfastly ducked:

Ø  1) Do you think ICANN should be immune from antitrust? Yes or no.

Of course ICANN should be subject to all kinds of public interest laws, as every entity should be - anti-trust, but also others, like those aimed at preserving and deepening public domain..... ( thus being prevented from giving off generic names like school, kid, beauty, cloud etc as private tlds).


Ø  2) What stops such a case from being brought in the EU? ICANN has offices in Brussels, and its "service" or operations could be considered global, thus in the EU.

First of all, you are cleverly skipping examples of India, Ghana and Bangladesh that I used, and only employing EU's case becuase ICANN has an office there... Your argument can be challenged simply on this ground, what about the other countries, especially the developing ones where ICANN chooses not to have an office. (Equity, Milton, equity, dont lose sight of this simple democratic value!)

On the other hand, even if ICANN has a Brussels office, this fact does not put EU's jurisdiction over ICANN anywhere close to a similar level to US's. Apart from the fact that, if the push comes to shove, ICANN can simply close or shift Brussels office,  offshore offices have often claimed lack of control over and accountability for parent bodies decisions vis a vis the jurisdictions in which they are located.  (This is well known, but if you want examples, I can give them.)


It does not take a political scientist to understand that the same is not true vis a vis the jurisdiction of any other of 192 countries.


Ø  You have not made any argument to explain why this is true. You have merely asserted it.

No, I did make a clear argument using the scenario of an .xxx related case being brought in a Bangladesh court. Pl see my last email to which you respond. But you completely ignored that argument.


Ø  The US antitrust case is in fact no different from an antitrust case that might be brought in the EU,

Completely wrong. For such a case brought in the EU, even if .xxx registry was based in EU, (1) ICANN is not obliged to defend the case (2) even if .xxx was to lose the case, it is the registry that will have to renege from the ICANN agreement, ICANN would have to do 'nothing'. However if the case is lost in the US, ICANN itself has to undertake certain actions- and also keep the judicial verdict in mind for future actions - something which is incongruent with ICANN's global governance status. That is the point.

On the other hand, and I said this in the previous email as well, which you seem to read selectively, even if .xxx registry was not in the US, the porn industry could still have brought the case to a US court against ICANN- .xxx agreement, which is simply not possible vis a vis any other country jurisdiction.


Ø  If indeed ICANN were engaged in restraint of the domain name trade in conjunction with a EU-based

Ø  registry, the effect would be exactly the same in both cases. ICANN's status as a California Corp.

Ø  makes no difference here.

see above

snip

And if it indeed is already subject to 192 jurisdiction, even efficiency, since you dont recognise issues of equity and democracy

Ø  You lost me here. I am the one in favor of democracy (e.g., election of ICANN board), you are the one in favor of control by states.

I am glad to have an elected board if you can assemble the electorate in a manner that is equitous and then ensure fair polling. Please tell me your proposal. As for 'control by the states' I am happy to have any kind of direct democracy not only in IG space but also all other spaces of global governance (your view on this please). And till we have it, instead of one country dictating to the world, representational democracy will do (while all efforts at national and international level should be kept up to see that these purported 'representatives' are indeed democratically so). Imperfect democracy and representativity cannot be taken as an excuse for perpetuating hegemony and one-country dictatorship.

with regards

parminder




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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Sun Sep  9 19:52:46 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:52:46 +1200
Subject: [governance] Brainstorming [Improvements to IGC Coordination on IG
 Policies] #Working Groups
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiCZ1+sUQmZiu4To_Odt0xhmPBeKEPgXqwdehXE2jKZhcA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

As you can imagine, we are constantly faced with the challenges of
improving the manner in which we coordinate advocacy in policy areas
pertaining to Internet Governance. Following the current evaluation of the
IGC, we will issue another Survey to generate suggestions on how we can
improve out internal coordination as the IGC. Things like developing
positions on Policy areas.
The IGC has following consensus developed positions on certain areas such
as Freedom of Expression, Remote Participation, Human Rights etc. Noting
that with critical forums looming namely, the IGF and other forums that
will require global input from the IGC, I have put together some thoughts.
Let me have your comments.


*Background*

Following the recent Survey conducted by the IGC there is consensus that
there is a need to enhance the coordination of advocacy of critical
Internet Governance issues in key Forums aside from the IGF.  As such, we
would like to gather your views about how we are going to go about
achieving the same.


The WGIG 2005 Report had identified 4 Public Policy Clusters namely[1]<#_ftn1>
:-

a)     (a) Issues Relating to Infrastructure and Management of Critical
Internet Resources, including administration of domain name systems and
Internet Protocol Addresses, Administration of the root server system,
technical standards, peering and interconnection, telecommunications
infrastructure, including innovative and convergent technologies, as well
as multilingualization;

b)     (b) Issues relating to the use of the Internet including spam,
network security and cyber crime;

c)      (c.) Issues that are relevant to the Internet but have an impact
much wider than the Internet such as Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) and
International Trade;

d)    (d.)  Issues relating to the developmental aspects of Internet
Governance in particular capacity building in developing countries.

The WGIG then highlighted critical policy areas for the attention of the
WSIS[2] <#_ftn2>. The Table below illustrates the Policy Cluster as well as
the policy issues.

*No.*

*#*

*POLICY AREAS*

*POLICY CLUSTER*

1

Administration of the Root Zones, Files and Systems

a

2

Interconnection Costs

a

3

Allocation of Domain Names

a

4

IP Addressing

a

5

Multilingualism

a

6

Internet Stability, Security and Cyber Crime

b

7

Spam

b

8

Intellectual Property Rights

c

9

Meaningful Participation in Global Policy Development

a, b, c, d

10

Capacity Building

A,b,c,d

11

Freedom of Expression

A,b,c,d

12

Data Protection and Privacy Rights

A,b,c,d

13

Consumer Rights

A,b,c,d







*Working Groups*

Having read the feedback from the Survey that was done by Norbert Bollow
some time ago, it is clear that it is far more beneficial to develop
positions on key issues prior to deciding which forums the IGC is going to
engage in.  The Working Groups will mean that interested IGC subscribers
can volunteer their names to be part of the Working Group. They can also
volunteer to lead the Groups. For now it will be good if we agreed on a
model for coordination, enlist volunteers etc.


*Focus of Working Groups*

Working Groups can be tasked to do the following in each of their Policy
Areas, namely:-


   1.          *Create a repository of all submissions and Statements made
   by the IGC or other Civil Society organizations: *This can be done by
   going through the ListServe Archives, UN Publications etc;
   2.          *Identify the issues:* What the issues are? Have these been
   addressed? Recommendations
   3.          *Identify Forums for Advocacy:* presentation of the IGC
   position
   4.          *Preparation of an Information Paper : *summary of issues,
   advocacy options
   5.          *Generating Discussion:* Generating Discussion with the IGC
   and assisting the IGC in formulating consensus position in the policy area

There are a few options available to the IGC and that is whether we would
like to have Working Groups that is based on the Policy Clusters could mean
something like this. Please note that the Policy Clusters are far more
expansive and include things like International Trade and issues tabled for
discussions in relation to the WCIT.



*Model  1*

*Working Group*

*Policy Cluster Description*

*Policy Areas*

A

Issues Relating to Infrastructure and Management of Critical Internet
Resources, including administration of domain name systems and Internet
Protocol Addresses, Administration of the root server system, technical
standards, peering and interconnection, telecommunications infrastructure,
including innovative and convergent technologies, as well as
multilingualization





#1, #2, #3, #4, #5

B

Issues relating to the use of the Internet including spam, network security
and cyber crime;



#6, #7

C

Issues that are relevant to the Internet but have an impact much wider than
the Internet such as Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) and International
Trade

#8, #9, #10, #11, #12, #13

d

Issues relating to the developmental aspects of Internet Governance in
particular capacity building in developing countries

#8, #9, #10, #11, #12, #13



* *

*Model 2*

To have 13 Working Groups to specifically work in the following policy
areas.

*No.*

*#*

*POLICY AREAS*

*POLICY CLUSTER*

1

Administration of the Root Zones, Files and Systems

a

2

Interconnection Costs

a

3

Allocation of Domain Names

a

4

IP Addressing

a

5

Multilingualism

a

6

Internet Stability, Security and Cyber Crime

b

7

Spam

b

8

Intellectual Property Rights

c

9

Meaningful Participation in Global Policy Development

a, b, c, d

10

Capacity Building

A,b,c,d

11

Freedom of Expression

A,b,c,d

12

Data Protection and Privacy Rights

A,b,c,d

13

Consumer Rights

A,b,c,d



* *

------------------------------

[1] <#_ftnref1> Report of the Working Group on Internet Governance 2005,
Chateau de Bossey in  http://www.wgig.org/docs/WGIGREPORT.pdf

[2] <#_ftnref2> ibid







-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 01:51:02 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:51:02 +1200
Subject: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong Kong
 Elections
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

Please join me in warmly congratulating Charles Mok who has just won a seat
of the Information Technology Functional Constituency for the Hong Kong
Legislative Council with 2, 828 votes, against Samson Tam his only opponent
(2063) votes.

I am super glad that Hong Kong has a dynamic, intelligent, hard working
advocate as one of its Legislative Councillor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mok

With every best wish Charles!

Sala

On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Charles Mok (gmail)
<charlespmok at gmail.com>wrote:

> Similar happened in HK yesterday and about 10 social activists including
> one opposition legislator had their fb accounts suspended for a few hours.
>  I contacted fb public policy people and around the same time their
> accounts gradually came back unblocked.  fb has not provided clear
> explanation of the reasons.
>
> English report: (paid content)
>
> http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2c913216495213d5df646910cba0a0a0/?vgnextoid=445f1383709a7310VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=teaser&ss=Hong+Kong&s=News
>
> Widely reported in Chinese newspapers also.
>
> Charles
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 9:00 AM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Oksana,
>>
>> Why/on whose orders/recommendation were they blocked?
>>
>> M
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
>> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Oksana
>> Prykhodko
>> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 6:24 PM
>> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; William Drake
>> Subject: Re: [governance] Facebook profiles blocked and content removed in
>> Brazil
>>
>>
>> Hi, all
>>
>> Today Facebook blocked accounts of nearly 10 Ukrainian independent
>> journalists. But, after active campaign in social media and addresses to
>> Facebook CEO, these accounts were unblocked.
>>
>> May be it is time to think about ombudsmen for social media - as a
>> mediator
>> between users and CEO?
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Oksana
>>
>> 2012/6/1 William Drake <william.drake at uzh.ch>:
>> > Hi Marilia
>> >
>> >
>> > On May 31, 2012, at 11:28 PM, Marilia Maciel wrote:
>> >
>> > I am totally in favor of achieving "harmony" on this and other topics.
>> > But this is a crossborder issue that involves private forces and
>> > public interest. Tell me the place where we can globally tackle this
>> > issue, all together, in a multistakeholder fashion and I will be the
>> > first to attend and try to contribute so that “harmony” can come
>> > about. But first we probably need to fight for such a space to exist.
>> >
>> >
>> > I guess I'm with Roland and others who'd note that the Internet is not
>> > the web and the web is not FB, so while FB's TOR are overly paranoid
>> > and restrictive, there are other places to post stuff, and it's at
>> > least debatable whether this rises to the level of being global
>> > Internet governance.  But I have different questions.  In
>> > conversations in Geneva and here (and the IT4C letter did the same),
>> > you've cited FB policies as evidence there's an urgent need for
>> > enhanced cooperation in the form of a platform under the UN.   But why
>> > not organize an online campaign---per ACTA SOPA PIPA—of fellow FB
>> > users to put pressure on FB directly (and for that matter, use the IGF
>> > in parallel to stoke the debate), rather than creating a centralized
>> > uber mechanism responsible for this and all else?
>> >  Why do you think a WG/CIRP/whatever that would be populated inter alia
>> by
>> > Geneva reps of the very governments that make FB paranoid in the first
>> place
>> > would be more likely to agree that nudity is ok and FB should allow it
>> > without fear of government reprisals?
>> >
>> > There are many CS and other actors who share your concerns about
>> > individual issues---FoE IPR privacy surveillance etc---and the meta
>> > issue of concentrated power but just have trouble seeing a one-stop
>> > shop in the UN as the right solution.  Since the case for why it would
>> > be really hasn't been made in any detail, isn't there a risk that
>> > insisting it's the only option left-minded people may consider (and in
>> > some tellings, that any nonbelievers are morally suspect, don't care
>> > about developing countries, etc) just limits coalition building?  Can
>> > we agree that at the Baku pre-event and beyond, it'd be useful to work
>> > through the relative merits of different institutional designs?
>> > Personally, I've always favored WGs in the IGF &
>> > strengthening/connecting advocacy coalitions working in different
>> > spaces (although as the APC network of networks effort showed, that's
>> > difficult), but there are other options, a new UN body being just one.
>> > So let's compare and contrast?
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Bill
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ____________________________________________________________
>> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>> >     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> > To be removed from the list, visit:
>> >     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>> >
>> > For all other list information and functions, see:
>> >     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> > To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>> >     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>> >
>> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From naveedpta at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 02:13:21 2012
From: naveedpta at hotmail.com (Naveed haq)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 06:13:21 +0000
Subject: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong
 Kong Elections
In-Reply-To:  <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>
References:  <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL002-W91E1D5A56C7F37E514C3F4B7AC0@phx.gbl>

I would be joining Sala here to pay a deep appreciation and congratualtions to Charles Mok. A well deserved and bright win for people of Hong Kong. !
 
I wish him all the best for future endeavours. 
 
 
Best Regards,
Naveed.
 



Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:51:02 +1200
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; charlespmok at gmail.com
Subject: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong Kong Elections

Dear All, 


Please join me in warmly congratulating Charles Mok who has just won a seat of the Information Technology Functional Constituency for the Hong Kong Legislative Council with 2, 828 votes, against Samson Tam his only opponent (2063) votes.


I am super glad that Hong Kong has a dynamic, intelligent, hard working advocate as one of its Legislative Councillor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mok


With every best wish Charles!


Sala


On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Charles Mok (gmail) <charlespmok at gmail.com> wrote:

Similar happened in HK yesterday and about 10 social activists including one opposition legislator had their fb accounts suspended for a few hours.  I contacted fb public policy people and around the same time their accounts gradually came back unblocked.  fb has not provided clear explanation of the reasons. 


English report: (paid content)
http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2c913216495213d5df646910cba0a0a0/?vgnextoid=445f1383709a7310VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=teaser&ss=Hong+Kong&s=News


Widely reported in Chinese newspapers also.


Charles






On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 9:00 AM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

Oksana,

Why/on whose orders/recommendation were they blocked?


M

-----Original Message-----
From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org

[mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Oksana Prykhodko
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 6:24 PM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; William Drake
Subject: Re: [governance] Facebook profiles blocked and content removed in
Brazil




Hi, all

Today Facebook blocked accounts of nearly 10 Ukrainian independent
journalists. But, after active campaign in social media and addresses to
Facebook CEO, these accounts were unblocked.

May be it is time to think about ombudsmen for social media - as a mediator
between users and CEO?

Best regards,
Oksana

2012/6/1 William Drake <william.drake at uzh.ch>:
> Hi Marilia
>
>
> On May 31, 2012, at 11:28 PM, Marilia Maciel wrote:
>
> I am totally in favor of achieving "harmony" on this and other topics.
> But this is a crossborder issue that involves private forces and
> public interest. Tell me the place where we can globally tackle this
> issue, all together, in a multistakeholder fashion and I will be the
> first to attend and try to contribute so that “harmony” can come
> about. But first we probably need to fight for such a space to exist.
>
>
> I guess I'm with Roland and others who'd note that the Internet is not
> the web and the web is not FB, so while FB's TOR are overly paranoid
> and restrictive, there are other places to post stuff, and it's at
> least debatable whether this rises to the level of being global
> Internet governance.  But I have different questions.  In
> conversations in Geneva and here (and the IT4C letter did the same),
> you've cited FB policies as evidence there's an urgent need for
> enhanced cooperation in the form of a platform under the UN.   But why
> not organize an online campaign---per ACTA SOPA PIPA—of fellow FB
> users to put pressure on FB directly (and for that matter, use the IGF
> in parallel to stoke the debate), rather than creating a centralized
> uber mechanism responsible for this and all else?
>  Why do you think a WG/CIRP/whatever that would be populated inter alia by
> Geneva reps of the very governments that make FB paranoid in the first
place
> would be more likely to agree that nudity is ok and FB should allow it
> without fear of government reprisals?
>
> There are many CS and other actors who share your concerns about
> individual issues---FoE IPR privacy surveillance etc---and the meta
> issue of concentrated power but just have trouble seeing a one-stop
> shop in the UN as the right solution.  Since the case for why it would
> be really hasn't been made in any detail, isn't there a risk that
> insisting it's the only option left-minded people may consider (and in
> some tellings, that any nonbelievers are morally suspect, don't care
> about developing countries, etc) just limits coalition building?  Can
> we agree that at the Baku pre-event and beyond, it'd be useful to work
> through the relative merits of different institutional designs?  
> Personally, I've always favored WGs in the IGF &
> strengthening/connecting advocacy coalitions working in different
> spaces (although as the APC network of networks effort showed, that's
> difficult), but there are other options, a new UN body being just one.  
> So let's compare and contrast?
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>




____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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To be removed from the list, visit:
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For all other list information and functions, see:
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To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t



____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
To be removed from the list, visit:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing

For all other list information and functions, see:
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t




-- 

Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji


Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851


 


 		 	   		  
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Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 02:27:21 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:57:21 +0530
Subject: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong
 Kong Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKTWhEdmdfEOtpeYq3HT1SBNkUBYjykQc1Q5fqO=fOPfrA@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations Charles!! A well earned victory indeed; HK's future is
bright!!

-Chaitanya

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> Please join me in warmly congratulating Charles Mok who has just won a
> seat of the Information Technology Functional Constituency for the Hong
> Kong Legislative Council with 2, 828 votes, against Samson Tam his only
> opponent (2063) votes.
>
> I am super glad that Hong Kong has a dynamic, intelligent, hard working
> advocate as one of its Legislative Councillor.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mok
>
> With every best wish Charles!
>
> Sala
>
>
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From zads911 at msn.com  Mon Sep 10 02:36:57 2012
From: zads911 at msn.com (Mohamed zahran)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 06:36:57 +0000
Subject: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong
 Kong Elections
In-Reply-To:  <CAEP5zKTWhEdmdfEOtpeYq3HT1SBNkUBYjykQc1Q5fqO=fOPfrA@mail.gmail.com>
References:  <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>,<CAEP5zKTWhEdmdfEOtpeYq3HT1SBNkUBYjykQc1Q5fqO=fOPfrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT002-W66F2A990D4D170D8B2157BF0AC0@phx.gbl>

Congratulations Charles, 

 
Regards,
Mohamed Zahran



Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:57:21 +0530
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com
CC: charlespmok at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong Kong Elections

Congratulations Charles!! A well earned victory indeed; HK's future is bright!! -Chaitanya

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear All,
Please join me in warmly congratulating Charles Mok who has just won a seat of the Information Technology Functional Constituency for the Hong Kong Legislative Council with 2, 828 votes, against Samson Tam his only opponent (2063) votes.


I am super glad that Hong Kong has a dynamic, intelligent, hard working advocate as one of its Legislative Councillor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mok


With every best wish Charles!
Sala

 		 	   		  
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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 03:27:07 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 10:27:07 +0300
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B135E25@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com> <50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net> <CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com> <50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <504853B4.6080300@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>,<504C3775.10709@itforchange.net> <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B135E25@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <504D964B.3050309@gmail.com>


On 2012/09/09 11:41 PM, Lee W McKnight wrote:
> ICANN, on the other hand, if established under international public or 
> private law, could indeed gain various immunities, which its actions 
> do not now enjoy. Milton's 100% right to say careful what we wish for 
> here, since moving to a treaty or international convention as the 
> source of ICANN's legal status, could just as easily make ICANN less 
> responsive as more responsive to national jurisdictions, and 
> individuals. ANY national jurisdiction. But that is a possibility and 
> not a certainty, as it would depend on the specifics agreed to by 
> nations signing onto that hypothetical treaty.

Of course there is an indeterminacy in these arrangements. Question is, 
is it legitimate (albeit effective)?

ICANN enjoys the discretion of complying or not. At national levels 
court's may refuse to even hear a case over which it will render an 
"empty judgement" - hence issues of jurisdiction and effective 
enforcement would play up here to even ensure legal standing. So the 
sufficiency of the argument on national (other than US) control is much 
more complicated than at first sight.

>
> If you don't believe me, just ask any practicing international 
> (private) lawyer. I'm guessing her answer would be another question: 
> how deep are your pockets? : ) But anyone with enough money to make 
> the challenge to for example - any - gtld string, can follow ICANN 
> procedures, or they can turn to their own national courts. Although 
> those courts might find it annoying if they are dragged into the 
> middle of an arcane dispute if remedies from within the ICANN system 
> were not exhausted first.

Question, would I be wrong to read this as a veiled anti-multilateralism 
position? I ask because if it is then it is merely a variation of the US 
exceptionalism view. If it is not then there are transformative reform 
possibilities - and these need to address the non-binding nature of the 
IGF (and the posse of marginalisation that typically - hope this is not 
too strong a term - actively marginalises this issue) as well as other 
paths to change (different roots, non-governmental control flowering 
autonomous control, enhanced cooperation, etc).

These are matters of refined judgement. Based on what line one takes - 
reformist reform (accomodation - based largely on the ICANN - or USG - 
won't/can't change view), tranformative reform (as claimed by Pisanty et 
al) and radical reform (as claimed by Parminder) [categorisation based 
on my reading _only_] and here we may well have a fork in the road. 
Aside from the contest of ideas, on a practical level, the issue is 
there sufficient representation of these diverse views, are they 
cultivated and nurtured or are some more equal than others.

[Where we may differ of course is on first principles, i.e. is 
legitimacy a valid grounds upon which to make a claim - and while not 
explicit, these reformist reform positions put this to question (which 
is the fork in the road where company does part)....
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From pouzin at well.com  Mon Sep 10 04:01:21 2012
From: pouzin at well.com (Louis Pouzin (well))
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 10:01:21 +0200
Subject: [governance] When will ACTA II be fought out ?
In-Reply-To: <50499472.7050508@gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYoj8n6na5+HDgB_dCpJMhOTQaLJd59-pkh5=RySk_cATQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <50499472.7050508@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+EjHYr2O8mjxv+QwvofxzBV0f1sBjsO4gD6D4gAze+OtVorJw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Riaz,

Why I think this is the case ?

It takes a bit of revisiting some history to set the scene. Who remembers,
or has forgotten, the ATT-NSA spying net story between 2002 and 2005 ?

You can glance through:

https://www.eff.org/files/filenode/att/presskit/ATT_onepager.pdf
http://cryptogon.com/?p=877

In a nutshell, an ATT technician discovers in 2002 that the whole ATT
backbone traffic (phone, voice, data, web) is mirrored illegally to NSA.
Once retired in 2005 he talks to newspapers, and after much effort gets an
article in the NYT. EFF files a class action lawsuit against ATT. The Bush
admin moves to kill the case, calling the State secret exception. Once
Obama elected the new admin legalizes retroactively NSA's spying, and
declares immune from prosecution all phone companies involved in tapping.

Ergo, Bush or Obama, same tricks. Whatever is illegal becomes legal if the
president says so. A first step into dictatorship ?

The US is no exception. Many governments have deployed illegal and secret
mass surveillance systems. Their motivation is primarily controlling
political opponents. Their natural allies (and financial donators) are
marketing organisations eager to know everything on everybody, i.e.
controlling consumers.

If admins need justifications with their parliament (to get a budget) they
conjure up terrorism, pedophilia, child protection, obscenity, social
disorder, religion, IPR, what have you. It's the sort of decor adequate for
painting spying as a public protection acceptable by the population or the
political opposition, if any.

During the GW Bush admin the first three were the excuse. Now those slogans
have lost emotional drive. IPR is the new excuse, supported by the
republican opposition and their media lobbies, working on more drastic laws
to protect their revenues. Since the market is international the US has to
coax other countries to get on the bandwagon and adopt similar legal
provisions, .. thus similar control systems (a bonanza for the US
surveillance industry), and an easy way for NSA to collect other countries
data.

Apparently this is part of what's going on under the TPP umbrella. It
should be easier for the US to maneuver this limited coalition than the
rest of the world.

Last July general Keith Alexander, NSA's head, became Cyber Command's
Commander. You can google his recent declarations and interviews. He is
dead set on security (read spying). It seems DHS was not good enough, as
Cyber Command (read NSA) is now to coordinate all US departments for
securing ALL networks (read domestic and abroad). Ok, he may have a dream.

All that leaves little else to be interpreted other than a determination to
build a worldwide mass surveillance system centered in USA. IPR and other
opportunistic lures serve as negotiation jokers for aggregating lobbies and
other governments in the gang.

It will be quite interesting to observe what approach will be taken with
China, India, Russia, and EU. ACTA 2012 won't be forgotten any time soon.
New convincing arguments for IPR will sound deja vu. The prospect of US
controlled mass surveillance will look as attractive as a scarecrow. Then,
what else US can offer ? Probably rude arm twisting, a not unusual tactic
in real politics.

I just read that EFF is up against TPP. Resistance goes on.

Cheers, Louis
- - -

More on the subject
http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/SER_klein_decl.pdf
http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/SER_marcus_decl.pdf
*  The two previous documents were on the web for several years, and have
vanished recently
*https://www.eff.org/issues/nsa-spying
https://www.eff.org/nsa/faq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy>
NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy>
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/timothy-karr/one-us-corporations-role-_b_815281.html
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/01/obama-sides-wit/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Klein
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/07/AR2007110700006_pf.html
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/05/70944
http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/05/kleininterview
http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/01/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-mark-klein-author-of-wiring-up-the-big-brother-machine/
http://www.mainheadlinenews.com/video/qrBapXsLcro
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/60204.html
http://osdir.com/ml/culture.war.guerrelec/2006-04/msg00040.html
http://www.dailytech.com/ATT+Accidentally+Leaks+Incriminating+NSA+Info/article2558.htm
http://www.spamdailynews.com/publish/Bush_administration_to_intervene_in_ATT_surveillance_case.asp
http://www.infowars.com/att-whistleblower-spy-bill-creates-%E2%80%98infrastructure-for-a-police-state%E2%80%99/
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=74c_1243652643&c=1
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/obama-doj-worse-than-bush
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/nsa-denies-wired/

- - -
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:30 AM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:

> Why do you think this is the case?
>
> On 2012/09/07 03:34 AM, Louis Pouzin (well) wrote:
>
>> But whatever happens in November, the next USG is unlikely to change
>> policy on IPR. Watch out.
>>
>
>
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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 04:17:06 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:17:06 +0300
Subject: [governance] When will ACTA II be fought out ?
In-Reply-To: <CA+EjHYr2O8mjxv+QwvofxzBV0f1sBjsO4gD6D4gAze+OtVorJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYoj8n6na5+HDgB_dCpJMhOTQaLJd59-pkh5=RySk_cATQ@mail.gmail.com> <50499472.7050508@gmail.com> <CA+EjHYr2O8mjxv+QwvofxzBV0f1sBjsO4gD6D4gAze+OtVorJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <504DA202.2020303@gmail.com>

Thanks for this... informative and very useful links...

I was hoping that middle class America would realise that ONE of the 
principle means that "good jobs" are lost is through the 
internationalisation of intellectual property rights... but Ihave no 
idea what passes for progressives or how issues come to light in these 
societies so your take is not only useful, but also puts forward some 
grounds for common interests...

It is a pity that more was not done to raise the issue of conflation of 
domain names and trade marks...

Just as a side issue, the close affiliation of govt and telecoms 
companies also had a material/technological basis - with fibre optics, 
govt needed to be at the telecom HQs (but I may be wrong)... and with 
the Bush retrospective legalisation - well that is about the worst thing 
in legal terms... retrospectivity...

On 2012/09/10 11:01 AM, Louis Pouzin (well) wrote:
> Hi Riaz,
>
> Why I think this is the case ?
>
> It takes a bit of revisiting some history to set the scene. Who 
> remembers, or has forgotten, the ATT-NSA spying net story between 2002 
> and 2005 ?
>
> You can glance through:
>
> https://www.eff.org/files/filenode/att/presskit/ATT_onepager.pdf
> http://cryptogon.com/?p=877
>
> In a nutshell, an ATT technician discovers in 2002 that the whole ATT 
> backbone traffic (phone, voice, data, web) is mirrored illegally to 
> NSA. Once retired in 2005 he talks to newspapers, and after much 
> effort gets an article in the NYT. EFF files a class action lawsuit 
> against ATT. The Bush admin moves to kill the case, calling the State 
> secret exception. Once Obama elected the new admin legalizes 
> retroactively NSA's spying, and declares immune from prosecution all 
> phone companies involved in tapping.
>
> Ergo, Bush or Obama, same tricks. Whatever is illegal becomes legal if 
> the president says so. A first step into dictatorship ?
>
> The US is no exception. Many governments have deployed illegal and 
> secret mass surveillance systems. Their motivation is primarily 
> controlling political opponents. Their natural allies (and financial 
> donators) are marketing organisations eager to know everything on 
> everybody, i.e. controlling consumers.
>
> If admins need justifications with their parliament (to get a budget) 
> they conjure up terrorism, pedophilia, child protection, obscenity, 
> social disorder, religion, IPR, what have you. It's the sort of decor 
> adequate for painting spying as a public protection acceptable by the 
> population or the political opposition, if any.
>
> During the GW Bush admin the first three were the excuse. Now those 
> slogans have lost emotional drive. IPR is the new excuse, supported by 
> the republican opposition and their media lobbies, working on more 
> drastic laws to protect their revenues. Since the market is 
> international the US has to coax other countries to get on the 
> bandwagon and adopt similar legal provisions, .. thus similar control 
> systems (a bonanza for the US surveillance industry), and an easy way 
> for NSA to collect other countries data.
>
> Apparently this is part of what's going on under the TPP umbrella. It 
> should be easier for the US to maneuver this limited coalition than 
> the rest of the world.
>
> Last July general Keith Alexander, NSA's head, became Cyber Command's 
> Commander. You can google his recent declarations and interviews. He 
> is dead set on security (read spying). It seems DHS was not good 
> enough, as Cyber Command (read NSA) is now to coordinate all US 
> departments for securing ALL networks (read domestic and abroad). Ok, 
> he may have a dream.
>
> All that leaves little else to be interpreted other than a 
> determination to build a worldwide mass surveillance system centered 
> in USA. IPR and other opportunistic lures serve as negotiation jokers 
> for aggregating lobbies and other governments in the gang.
>
> It will be quite interesting to observe what approach will be taken 
> with China, India, Russia, and EU. ACTA 2012 won't be forgotten any 
> time soon. New convincing arguments for IPR will sound deja vu. The 
> prospect of US controlled mass surveillance will look as attractive as 
> a scarecrow. Then, what else US can offer ? Probably rude arm 
> twisting, a not unusual tactic in real politics.
>
> I just read that EFF is up against TPP. Resistance goes on.
>
> Cheers, Louis
> - - -
>
> More on the subject
> http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/SER_klein_decl.pdf
> http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/SER_marcus_decl.pdf
> /  The two previous documents were on the web for several years, and 
> have vanished recently
> /https://www.eff.org/issues/nsa-spying
> https://www.eff.org/nsa/faq
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy>NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/timothy-karr/one-us-corporations-role-_b_815281.html
> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/01/obama-sides-wit/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Klein
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/07/AR2007110700006_pf.html
> http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/05/70944
> http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/05/kleininterview
> http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/01/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-mark-klein-author-of-wiring-up-the-big-brother-machine/
> http://www.mainheadlinenews.com/video/qrBapXsLcro
> http://www.technewsworld.com/story/60204.html
> http://osdir.com/ml/culture.war.guerrelec/2006-04/msg00040.html
> http://www.dailytech.com/ATT+Accidentally+Leaks+Incriminating+NSA+Info/article2558.htm
> http://www.spamdailynews.com/publish/Bush_administration_to_intervene_in_ATT_surveillance_case.asp
> http://www.infowars.com/att-whistleblower-spy-bill-creates-%E2%80%98infrastructure-for-a-police-state%E2%80%99/
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=74c_1243652643&c=1
> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/obama-doj-worse-than-bush
> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/nsa-denies-wired/
>
> - - -
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:30 AM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com 
> <mailto:riaz.tayob at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Why do you think this is the case?
>
>     On 2012/09/07 03:34 AM, Louis Pouzin (well) wrote:
>
>         But whatever happens in November, the next USG is unlikely to
>         change policy on IPR. Watch out.
>
>
>

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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 04:41:01 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:41:01 +1200
Subject: [governance] When will ACTA II be fought out ?
In-Reply-To: <504DA202.2020303@gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYoj8n6na5+HDgB_dCpJMhOTQaLJd59-pkh5=RySk_cATQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50499472.7050508@gmail.com>
	<CA+EjHYr2O8mjxv+QwvofxzBV0f1sBjsO4gD6D4gAze+OtVorJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<504DA202.2020303@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiB6B-n7eDMXoZS0nPbOXZAOpyLp=Db9JJkaUrKZuYZzxw@mail.gmail.com>

Currently the TPP negotiations, the 14th round is being held in Leesburg,
Virginia from September 6-15, 2012 .

Today is the day allocated for those who have registered to take part in
the Stakeholders discussions. You had to register to participate. You can
visit: http://www.ustr.gov/tpp to access highlights and overviews and
actual FTAs. It has been reported from other news sources that His
Excellency B. Obama wants to conclude the TPP by this year's end.

There is an interesting article by Gordon Campbell, see:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1209/S00040/gordon-campbell-on-apec-and-its-significance-for-tpp-talks.htm


On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Thanks for this... informative and very useful links...
>
> I was hoping that middle class America would realise that ONE of the
> principle means that "good jobs" are lost is through the
> internationalisation of intellectual property rights... but Ihave no idea
> what passes for progressives or how issues come to light in these societies
> so your take is not only useful, but also puts forward some grounds for
> common interests...
>
> It is a pity that more was not done to raise the issue of conflation of
> domain names and trade marks...
>
> Just as a side issue, the close affiliation of govt and telecoms companies
> also had a material/technological basis - with fibre optics, govt needed to
> be at the telecom HQs (but I may be wrong)... and with the Bush
> retrospective legalisation - well that is about the worst thing in legal
> terms... retrospectivity...
>
> On 2012/09/10 11:01 AM, Louis Pouzin (well) wrote:
>
> Hi Riaz,
>
> Why I think this is the case ?
>
> It takes a bit of revisiting some history to set the scene. Who remembers,
> or has forgotten, the ATT-NSA spying net story between 2002 and 2005 ?
>
> You can glance through:
>
> https://www.eff.org/files/filenode/att/presskit/ATT_onepager.pdf
> http://cryptogon.com/?p=877
>
> In a nutshell, an ATT technician discovers in 2002 that the whole ATT
> backbone traffic (phone, voice, data, web) is mirrored illegally to NSA.
> Once retired in 2005 he talks to newspapers, and after much effort gets an
> article in the NYT. EFF files a class action lawsuit against ATT. The Bush
> admin moves to kill the case, calling the State secret exception. Once
> Obama elected the new admin legalizes retroactively NSA's spying, and
> declares immune from prosecution all phone companies involved in tapping.
>
> Ergo, Bush or Obama, same tricks. Whatever is illegal becomes legal if the
> president says so. A first step into dictatorship ?
>
> The US is no exception. Many governments have deployed illegal and secret
> mass surveillance systems. Their motivation is primarily controlling
> political opponents. Their natural allies (and financial donators) are
> marketing organisations eager to know everything on everybody, i.e.
> controlling consumers.
>
> If admins need justifications with their parliament (to get a budget) they
> conjure up terrorism, pedophilia, child protection, obscenity, social
> disorder, religion, IPR, what have you. It's the sort of decor adequate for
> painting spying as a public protection acceptable by the population or the
> political opposition, if any.
>
> During the GW Bush admin the first three were the excuse. Now those
> slogans have lost emotional drive. IPR is the new excuse, supported by the
> republican opposition and their media lobbies, working on more drastic laws
> to protect their revenues. Since the market is international the US has to
> coax other countries to get on the bandwagon and adopt similar legal
> provisions, .. thus similar control systems (a bonanza for the US
> surveillance industry), and an easy way for NSA to collect other countries
> data.
>
> Apparently this is part of what's going on under the TPP umbrella. It
> should be easier for the US to maneuver this limited coalition than the
> rest of the world.
>
> Last July general Keith Alexander, NSA's head, became Cyber Command's
> Commander. You can google his recent declarations and interviews. He is
> dead set on security (read spying). It seems DHS was not good enough, as
> Cyber Command (read NSA) is now to coordinate all US departments for
> securing ALL networks (read domestic and abroad). Ok, he may have a dream.
>
> All that leaves little else to be interpreted other than a determination
> to build a worldwide mass surveillance system centered in USA. IPR and
> other opportunistic lures serve as negotiation jokers for aggregating
> lobbies and other governments in the gang.
>
> It will be quite interesting to observe what approach will be taken with
> China, India, Russia, and EU. ACTA 2012 won't be forgotten any time soon.
> New convincing arguments for IPR will sound deja vu. The prospect of US
> controlled mass surveillance will look as attractive as a scarecrow. Then,
> what else US can offer ? Probably rude arm twisting, a not unusual tactic
> in real politics.
>
> I just read that EFF is up against TPP. Resistance goes on.
>
> Cheers, Louis
> - - -
>
> More on the subject
> http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/SER_klein_decl.pdf
> http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/SER_marcus_decl.pdf
> *  The two previous documents were on the web for several years, and have
> vanished recently
> *https://www.eff.org/issues/nsa-spying
> https://www.eff.org/nsa/faq
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy>
> NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy>
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/timothy-karr/one-us-corporations-role-_b_815281.html
> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/01/obama-sides-wit/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Klein
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/07/AR2007110700006_pf.html
> http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/05/70944
> http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/05/kleininterview
>
> http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/01/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-mark-klein-author-of-wiring-up-the-big-brother-machine/
> http://www.mainheadlinenews.com/video/qrBapXsLcro
> http://www.technewsworld.com/story/60204.html
> http://osdir.com/ml/culture.war.guerrelec/2006-04/msg00040.html
>
> http://www.dailytech.com/ATT+Accidentally+Leaks+Incriminating+NSA+Info/article2558.htm
>
> http://www.spamdailynews.com/publish/Bush_administration_to_intervene_in_ATT_surveillance_case.asp
>
> http://www.infowars.com/att-whistleblower-spy-bill-creates-%E2%80%98infrastructure-for-a-police-state%E2%80%99/
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=74c_1243652643&c=1
> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/obama-doj-worse-than-bush
> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/nsa-denies-wired/
>
> - - -
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:30 AM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Why do you think this is the case?
>>
>> On 2012/09/07 03:34 AM, Louis Pouzin (well) wrote:
>>
>>> But whatever happens in November, the next USG is unlikely to change
>>> policy on IPR. Watch out.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
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>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From sonigituekpe at crossriverstate.gov.ng  Mon Sep 10 05:16:02 2012
From: sonigituekpe at crossriverstate.gov.ng (Sonigitu Ekpe)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 10:16:02 +0100
Subject: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong
 Kong Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1347268562397084500@crossriverstate.gov.ng>

Dear All,
The cap fits  Charles Mok, hence the overwhelming victory.Congrats Charles.
-- 
Sonigitu Ekpe Project Support Officer[Agriculturist] Cross River Farm Credit Scheme Ministry of Agriculture and Natural Resources 3 Barracks Road P.M.B. 1119 Calabar - Cross River State, Nigeria. Mobile +234 805 0232 469    Office + 234 802 751 0179  "LIFE is all about love and thanksgiving" Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro  wrote:
>                 Dear All,
> Please join me in warmly congratulating Charles Mok who has just won a seat of the Information Technology Functional Constituency for the Hong Kong Legislative Council with 2, 828 votes, against Samson Tam his only opponent (2063) votes.
> I am super glad that Hong Kong has a dynamic, intelligent, hard working advocate as one of its Legislative Councillor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mok
> With every best wish Charles!
> Sala
> 
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Charles Mok (gmail) <charlespmok at gmail.com> wrote:
> Similar happened in HK yesterday and about 10 social activists including one opposition legislator had their fb accounts suspended for a few hours.  I contacted fb public policy people and around the same time their accounts gradually came back unblocked.  fb has not provided clear explanation of the reasons.
> English report: (paid content)
> http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2c913216495213d5df646910cba0a0a0/?vgnextoid=445f1383709a7310VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=teaser&ss=Hong+Kong&s=News
> Widely reported in Chinese newspapers also.
> Charles
> 
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 9:00 AM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
> Oksana,
> 
> Why/on whose orders/recommendation were they blocked?
> 
> M
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Oksana Prykhodko
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 6:24 PM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; William Drake
> Subject: Re: [governance] Facebook profiles blocked and content removed in
> Brazil
> 
> 
> Hi, all
> 
> Today Facebook blocked accounts of nearly 10 Ukrainian independent
> journalists. But, after active campaign in social media and addresses to
> Facebook CEO, these accounts were unblocked.
> 
> May be it is time to think about ombudsmen for social media - as a mediator
> between users and CEO?
> 
> Best regards,
> Oksana
> 
> 2012/6/1 William Drake <william.drake at uzh.ch>:
> > Hi Marilia
> >
> >
> > On May 31, 2012, at 11:28 PM, Marilia Maciel wrote:
> >
> > I am totally in favor of achieving "harmony" on this and other topics.
> > But this is a crossborder issue that involves private forces and
> > public interest. Tell me the place where we can globally tackle this
> > issue, all together, in a multistakeholder fashion and I will be the
> > first to attend and try to contribute so that “harmony” can come
> > about. But first we probably need to fight for such a space to exist.
> >
> >
> > I guess I'm with Roland and others who'd note that the Internet is not
> > the web and the web is not FB, so while FB's TOR are overly paranoid
> > and restrictive, there are other places to post stuff, and it's at
> > least debatable whether this rises to the level of being global
> > Internet governance.  But I have different questions.  In
> > conversations in Geneva and here (and the IT4C letter did the same),
> > you've cited FB policies as evidence there's an urgent need for
> > enhanced cooperation in the form of a platform under the UN.   But why
> > not organize an online campaign---per ACTA SOPA PIPA—of fellow FB
> > users to put pressure on FB directly (and for that matter, use the IGF
> > in parallel to stoke the debate), rather than creating a centralized
> > uber mechanism responsible for this and all else?
> >  Why do you think a WG/CIRP/whatever that would be populated inter alia by
> > Geneva reps of the very governments that make FB paranoid in the first
> place
> > would be more likely to agree that nudity is ok and FB should allow it
> > without fear of government reprisals?
> >
> > There are many CS and other actors who share your concerns about
> > individual issues---FoE IPR privacy surveillance etc---and the meta
> > issue of concentrated power but just have trouble seeing a one-stop
> > shop in the UN as the right solution.  Since the case for why it would
> > be really hasn't been made in any detail, isn't there a risk that
> > insisting it's the only option left-minded people may consider (and in
> > some tellings, that any nonbelievers are morally suspect, don't care
> > about developing countries, etc) just limits coalition building?  Can
> > we agree that at the Baku pre-event and beyond, it'd be useful to work
> > through the relative merits of different institutional designs?  
> > Personally, I've always favored WGs in the IGF &
> > strengthening/connecting advocacy coalitions working in different
> > spaces (although as the APC network of networks effort showed, that's
> > difficult), but there are other options, a new UN body being just one.  
> > So let's compare and contrast?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka SalaP.O. Box 17862SuvaFiji
> Twitter: @SalanietaTSkype:Salanieta.TamanikaiwaimaroFiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>  
> 
>                 


__________________________________________________________________________
The information contained in this communication is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in reliance of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Kindly destroy this message and notify the sender by replying the email in such instances. We do not accept responsibility for any changes made to this message after it was originally sent and any views, opinions, conclusions or other information in this message which do not relate to the business of this firm or are not authorized by us.The Cross River State Government is not liable neither for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in this communication nor any delay in its receipt.
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From qshatti at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 05:19:22 2012
From: qshatti at gmail.com (Qusai AlShatti)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 12:19:22 +0300
Subject: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong
 Kong Elections
In-Reply-To: <1347268562397084500@crossriverstate.gov.ng>
References: <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<1347268562397084500@crossriverstate.gov.ng>
Message-ID: <CAC2SYrPsvMsTFAHTg3_Ki_EcLckEzEwU1DuD1_xOG0UUMt60tw@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulation Charles on your new position and thank you Sala for the
announcement.

Qusai AlShatti

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Sonigitu Ekpe <
sonigituekpe at crossriverstate.gov.ng> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> The cap fits  Charles Mok, hence the overwhelming victory.
> Congrats Charles.
>
> --
> Sonigitu Ekpe
> *Project Support Officer[Agriculturist]*
> Cross River Farm Credit Scheme
> Ministry of Agriculture and Natural Resources
> 3 Barracks Road P.M.B. 1119
> Calabar - Cross River State, Nigeria.
> Mobile +234 805 0232 469    Office + 234 802 751 0179
>  *"LIFE is all about love and thanksgiving" *
> Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> Please join me in warmly congratulating Charles Mok who has just won a
> seat of the Information Technology Functional Constituency for the Hong
> Kong Legislative Council with 2, 828 votes, against Samson Tam his only
> opponent (2063) votes.
>
> I am super glad that Hong Kong has a dynamic, intelligent, hard working
> advocate as one of its Legislative Councillor.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mok
>
> With every best wish Charles!
>
> Sala
>
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Charles Mok (gmail) <charlespmok at gmail.com
> > wrote:
> Similar happened in HK yesterday and about 10 social activists including
> one opposition legislator had their fb accounts suspended for a few hours.
>  I contacted fb public policy people and around the same time their
> accounts gradually came back unblocked.  fb has not provided clear
> explanation of the reasons.
>
> English report: (paid content)
>
> http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2c913216495213d5df646910cba0a0a0/?vgnextoid=445f1383709a7310VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=teaser&ss=Hong+Kong&s=News
>
> Widely reported in Chinese newspapers also.
>
> Charles
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 9:00 AM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>wrote:
> Oksana,
>
> Why/on whose orders/recommendation were they blocked?
>
> M
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Oksana
> Prykhodko
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 6:24 PM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; William Drake
> Subject: Re: [governance] Facebook profiles blocked and content removed in
> Brazil
>
>
> Hi, all
>
> Today Facebook blocked accounts of nearly 10 Ukrainian independent
> journalists. But, after active campaign in social media and addresses to
> Facebook CEO, these accounts were unblocked.
>
> May be it is time to think about ombudsmen for social media - as a mediator
> between users and CEO?
>
> Best regards,
> Oksana
>
> 2012/6/1 William Drake <william.drake at uzh.ch>:
> > Hi Marilia
> >
> >
> > On May 31, 2012, at 11:28 PM, Marilia Maciel wrote:
> >
> > I am totally in favor of achieving "harmony" on this and other topics.
> > But this is a crossborder issue that involves private forces and
> > public interest. Tell me the place where we can globally tackle this
> > issue, all together, in a multistakeholder fashion and I will be the
> > first to attend and try to contribute so that “harmony” can come
> > about. But first we probably need to fight for such a space to exist.
> >
> >
> > I guess I'm with Roland and others who'd note that the Internet is not
> > the web and the web is not FB, so while FB's TOR are overly paranoid
> > and restrictive, there are other places to post stuff, and it's at
> > least debatable whether this rises to the level of being global
> > Internet governance.  But I have different questions.  In
> > conversations in Geneva and here (and the IT4C letter did the same),
> > you've cited FB policies as evidence there's an urgent need for
> > enhanced cooperation in the form of a platform under the UN.   But why
> > not organize an online campaign---per ACTA SOPA PIPA—of fellow FB
> > users to put pressure on FB directly (and for that matter, use the IGF
> > in parallel to stoke the debate), rather than creating a centralized
> > uber mechanism responsible for this and all else?
> >  Why do you think a WG/CIRP/whatever that would be populated inter alia
> by
> > Geneva reps of the very governments that make FB paranoid in the first
> place
> > would be more likely to agree that nudity is ok and FB should allow it
> > without fear of government reprisals?
> >
> > There are many CS and other actors who share your concerns about
> > individual issues---FoE IPR privacy surveillance etc---and the meta
> > issue of concentrated power but just have trouble seeing a one-stop
> > shop in the UN as the right solution.  Since the case for why it would
> > be really hasn't been made in any detail, isn't there a risk that
> > insisting it's the only option left-minded people may consider (and in
> > some tellings, that any nonbelievers are morally suspect, don't care
> > about developing countries, etc) just limits coalition building?  Can
> > we agree that at the Baku pre-event and beyond, it'd be useful to work
> > through the relative merits of different institutional designs?
> > Personally, I've always favored WGs in the IGF &
> > strengthening/connecting advocacy coalitions working in different
> > spaces (although as the APC network of networks effort showed, that's
> > difficult), but there are other options, a new UN body being just one.
> > So let's compare and contrast?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________________
> The information contained in this communication is confidential and may be
> legally privileged. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or
> entity to whom it is addressed and others authorized to receive it. If you
> are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
> copying, distribution or taking action in reliance of the contents of this
> information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Kindly destroy this
> message and notify the sender by replying the email in such instances. We
> do not accept responsibility for any changes made to this message after it
> was originally sent and any views, opinions, conclusions or other
> information in this message which do not relate to the business of this
> firm or are not authorized by us.The Cross River State Government is not
> liable neither for the proper and complete transmission of the information
> contained in this communication nor any delay in its receipt.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
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>
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>
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From shailam at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 05:38:02 2012
From: shailam at yahoo.com (shaila mistry)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 02:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong
 Kong Elections
Message-ID: <1347269882.53247.YahooMailMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Congratulations Charles. Well deserved I&#39;m sure !
Shaila Rao Mistry 
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 06:05:31 2012
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 05:05:31 -0500
Subject: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong
 Kong Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALCecM_Y14LgFeD0M6931HXzKobhgPCh-O6xvf=9oXu3MPA3sQ@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations to Charles, and to HK! This is wonderful news. Good luck
and energy, Charles!
Warm regards, with wonderful memories of HK...
Ginger

Ginger (Virginia) Paque

VirginiaP at diplomacy.edu
Diplo Foundation
Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme
www.diplomacy.edu/ig
**
**



On 10 September 2012 00:51, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> Please join me in warmly congratulating Charles Mok who has just won a
> seat of the Information Technology Functional Constituency for the Hong
> Kong Legislative Council with 2, 828 votes, against Samson Tam his only
> opponent (2063) votes.
>
> I am super glad that Hong Kong has a dynamic, intelligent, hard working
> advocate as one of its Legislative Councillor.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mok
>
> With every best wish Charles!
>
> Sala
>
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Charles Mok (gmail) <charlespmok at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Similar happened in HK yesterday and about 10 social activists including
>> one opposition legislator had their fb accounts suspended for a few hours.
>>  I contacted fb public policy people and around the same time their
>> accounts gradually came back unblocked.  fb has not provided clear
>> explanation of the reasons.
>>
>> English report: (paid content)
>>
>> http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2c913216495213d5df646910cba0a0a0/?vgnextoid=445f1383709a7310VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=teaser&ss=Hong+Kong&s=News
>>
>> Widely reported in Chinese newspapers also.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 9:00 AM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Oksana,
>>>
>>> Why/on whose orders/recommendation were they blocked?
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Oksana
>>> Prykhodko
>>> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 6:24 PM
>>> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; William Drake
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Facebook profiles blocked and content removed
>>> in
>>> Brazil
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi, all
>>>
>>> Today Facebook blocked accounts of nearly 10 Ukrainian independent
>>> journalists. But, after active campaign in social media and addresses to
>>> Facebook CEO, these accounts were unblocked.
>>>
>>> May be it is time to think about ombudsmen for social media - as a
>>> mediator
>>> between users and CEO?
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Oksana
>>>
>>> 2012/6/1 William Drake <william.drake at uzh.ch>:
>>> > Hi Marilia
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On May 31, 2012, at 11:28 PM, Marilia Maciel wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I am totally in favor of achieving "harmony" on this and other topics.
>>> > But this is a crossborder issue that involves private forces and
>>> > public interest. Tell me the place where we can globally tackle this
>>> > issue, all together, in a multistakeholder fashion and I will be the
>>> > first to attend and try to contribute so that “harmony” can come
>>> > about. But first we probably need to fight for such a space to exist.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I guess I'm with Roland and others who'd note that the Internet is not
>>> > the web and the web is not FB, so while FB's TOR are overly paranoid
>>> > and restrictive, there are other places to post stuff, and it's at
>>> > least debatable whether this rises to the level of being global
>>> > Internet governance.  But I have different questions.  In
>>> > conversations in Geneva and here (and the IT4C letter did the same),
>>> > you've cited FB policies as evidence there's an urgent need for
>>> > enhanced cooperation in the form of a platform under the UN.   But why
>>> > not organize an online campaign---per ACTA SOPA PIPA—of fellow FB
>>> > users to put pressure on FB directly (and for that matter, use the IGF
>>> > in parallel to stoke the debate), rather than creating a centralized
>>> > uber mechanism responsible for this and all else?
>>> >  Why do you think a WG/CIRP/whatever that would be populated inter
>>> alia by
>>> > Geneva reps of the very governments that make FB paranoid in the first
>>> place
>>> > would be more likely to agree that nudity is ok and FB should allow it
>>> > without fear of government reprisals?
>>> >
>>> > There are many CS and other actors who share your concerns about
>>> > individual issues---FoE IPR privacy surveillance etc---and the meta
>>> > issue of concentrated power but just have trouble seeing a one-stop
>>> > shop in the UN as the right solution.  Since the case for why it would
>>> > be really hasn't been made in any detail, isn't there a risk that
>>> > insisting it's the only option left-minded people may consider (and in
>>> > some tellings, that any nonbelievers are morally suspect, don't care
>>> > about developing countries, etc) just limits coalition building?  Can
>>> > we agree that at the Baku pre-event and beyond, it'd be useful to work
>>> > through the relative merits of different institutional designs?
>>> > Personally, I've always favored WGs in the IGF &
>>> > strengthening/connecting advocacy coalitions working in different
>>> > spaces (although as the APC network of networks effort showed, that's
>>> > difficult), but there are other options, a new UN body being just one.
>>>
>>> > So let's compare and contrast?
>>> >
>>> > Best,
>>> >
>>> > Bill
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ____________________________________________________________
>>> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>> >     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> > To be removed from the list, visit:
>>> >     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>> >
>>> > For all other list information and functions, see:
>>> >     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>> > To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>> >     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>> >
>>> > Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
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>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
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>>
>
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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> To be removed from the list, visit:
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>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 08:45:08 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:45:08 +0300
Subject: [governance] When will ACTA II be fought out ?
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiB6B-n7eDMXoZS0nPbOXZAOpyLp=Db9JJkaUrKZuYZzxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+EjHYoj8n6na5+HDgB_dCpJMhOTQaLJd59-pkh5=RySk_cATQ@mail.gmail.com> <50499472.7050508@gmail.com> <CA+EjHYr2O8mjxv+QwvofxzBV0f1sBjsO4gD6D4gAze+OtVorJw@mail.gmail.com> <504DA202.2020303@gmail.com> <CAJwbTiB6B-n7eDMXoZS0nPbOXZAOpyLp=Db9JJkaUrKZuYZzxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <504DE0D4.2090703@gmail.com>

[No transparency, no access, and for the pursuit of life liberty and copyright protection... so much for exceptionalism...]

http://amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/tpp-must-not-trade-away-free-speech-and-health-2012-09-06

6 September 2012
TPP Must Not Trade Away Free Speech and Health

Negotiators from nine countries gathering outside Washington DC to draft a new Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) trade agreement must ensure that any new rules on copyright and patents adhere to core principles of transparency and uphold human rights, Amnesty International said today.

"No one has the right to trade away our hard-fought legal protections for free speech and the right to health, and much less to do it behind closed doors," said Suzanne Nossel, executive director for Amnesty International USA.

"It is time for TPP negotiators to show the public their cards and, more importantly, the draft text of the agreement."

This text has been kept a secret since negotiations began in 2007, but leaked information suggests that it would attempt to achieve some of the same objectives of the widely criticized Anti-Counterfeiting Agreement (ACTA).
  
Specifically, leaked TPP draft text neglects protections for fair use and standard judicial guarantees - such as the presumption of innocence - and includes copyright provisions that could compromise free speech on the internet and access to educational materials.

Moreover, draft TPP provisions related to patents for pharmaceuticals risk stifling the development and production of generic medicines, by strengthening and deepening monopoly protections.

"Access to life-saving medicines is a right, not a privilege, and the TPP must put people ahead of profits," Nossel said.

In 2007, negotiations on the Trans-Pacific Partnership started between Chile, New Zealand, and Singapore. The United States joined the negotiations in 2008, with Canada and Mexico expected to join negotiations soon.

The TPP countries account for 27 per cent of global Gross Domestic Product.

The talks that start today in Leesburg, Virginia, hosted by the United States Trade Representative, are the 14th round of negotiations.
AI Index: PRE01/424/2012

On 2012/09/10 11:41 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
> Currently the TPP negotiations, the 14th round is being held in 
> Leesburg, Virginia from September 6-15, 2012 .
>
> Today is the day allocated for those who have registered to take part 
> in the Stakeholders discussions. You had to register to participate. 
> You can visit: http://www.ustr.gov/tpp to access highlights and 
> overviews and actual FTAs. It has been reported from other news 
> sources that His Excellency B. Obama wants to conclude the TPP by this 
> year's end.
>
> There is an interesting article by Gordon Campbell, see: 
> http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1209/S00040/gordon-campbell-on-apec-and-its-significance-for-tpp-talks.htm
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com 
> <mailto:riaz.tayob at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks for this... informative and very useful links...
>
>     I was hoping that middle class America would realise that ONE of
>     the principle means that "good jobs" are lost is through the
>     internationalisation of intellectual property rights... but Ihave
>     no idea what passes for progressives or how issues come to light
>     in these societies so your take is not only useful, but also puts
>     forward some grounds for common interests...
>
>     It is a pity that more was not done to raise the issue of
>     conflation of domain names and trade marks...
>
>     Just as a side issue, the close affiliation of govt and telecoms
>     companies also had a material/technological basis - with fibre
>     optics, govt needed to be at the telecom HQs (but I may be
>     wrong)... and with the Bush retrospective legalisation - well that
>     is about the worst thing in legal terms... retrospectivity...
>
>     On 2012/09/10 11:01 AM, Louis Pouzin (well) wrote:
>>     Hi Riaz,
>>
>>     Why I think this is the case ?
>>
>>     It takes a bit of revisiting some history to set the scene. Who
>>     remembers, or has forgotten, the ATT-NSA spying net story between
>>     2002 and 2005 ?
>>
>>     You can glance through:
>>
>>     https://www.eff.org/files/filenode/att/presskit/ATT_onepager.pdf
>>     http://cryptogon.com/?p=877
>>
>>     In a nutshell, an ATT technician discovers in 2002 that the whole
>>     ATT backbone traffic (phone, voice, data, web) is mirrored
>>     illegally to NSA. Once retired in 2005 he talks to newspapers,
>>     and after much effort gets an article in the NYT. EFF files a
>>     class action lawsuit against ATT. The Bush admin moves to kill
>>     the case, calling the State secret exception. Once Obama elected
>>     the new admin legalizes retroactively NSA's spying, and declares
>>     immune from prosecution all phone companies involved in tapping.
>>
>>     Ergo, Bush or Obama, same tricks. Whatever is illegal becomes
>>     legal if the president says so. A first step into dictatorship ?
>>
>>     The US is no exception. Many governments have deployed illegal
>>     and secret mass surveillance systems. Their motivation is
>>     primarily controlling political opponents. Their natural allies
>>     (and financial donators) are marketing organisations eager to
>>     know everything on everybody, i.e. controlling consumers.
>>
>>     If admins need justifications with their parliament (to get a
>>     budget) they conjure up terrorism, pedophilia, child protection,
>>     obscenity, social disorder, religion, IPR, what have you. It's
>>     the sort of decor adequate for painting spying as a public
>>     protection acceptable by the population or the political
>>     opposition, if any.
>>
>>     During the GW Bush admin the first three were the excuse. Now
>>     those slogans have lost emotional drive. IPR is the new excuse,
>>     supported by the republican opposition and their media lobbies,
>>     working on more drastic laws to protect their revenues. Since the
>>     market is international the US has to coax other countries to get
>>     on the bandwagon and adopt similar legal provisions, .. thus
>>     similar control systems (a bonanza for the US surveillance
>>     industry), and an easy way for NSA to collect other countries data.
>>
>>     Apparently this is part of what's going on under the TPP
>>     umbrella. It should be easier for the US to maneuver this limited
>>     coalition than the rest of the world.
>>
>>     Last July general Keith Alexander, NSA's head, became Cyber
>>     Command's Commander. You can google his recent declarations and
>>     interviews. He is dead set on security (read spying). It seems
>>     DHS was not good enough, as Cyber Command (read NSA) is now to
>>     coordinate all US departments for securing ALL networks (read
>>     domestic and abroad). Ok, he may have a dream.
>>
>>     All that leaves little else to be interpreted other than a
>>     determination to build a worldwide mass surveillance system
>>     centered in USA. IPR and other opportunistic lures serve as
>>     negotiation jokers for aggregating lobbies and other governments
>>     in the gang.
>>
>>     It will be quite interesting to observe what approach will be
>>     taken with China, India, Russia, and EU. ACTA 2012 won't be
>>     forgotten any time soon. New convincing arguments for IPR will
>>     sound deja vu. The prospect of US controlled mass surveillance
>>     will look as attractive as a scarecrow. Then, what else US can
>>     offer ? Probably rude arm twisting, a not unusual tactic in real
>>     politics.
>>
>>     I just read that EFF is up against TPP. Resistance goes on.
>>
>>     Cheers, Louis
>>     - - -
>>
>>     More on the subject
>>     http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/SER_klein_decl.pdf
>>     http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/SER_marcus_decl.pdf
>>     /  The two previous documents were on the web for several years,
>>     and have vanished recently
>>     /https://www.eff.org/issues/nsa-spying
>>     https://www.eff.org/nsa/faq
>>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>>     <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy>NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy
>>     <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy>
>>     http://www.huffingtonpost.com/timothy-karr/one-us-corporations-role-_b_815281.html
>>     http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/01/obama-sides-wit/
>>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Klein
>>     http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/07/AR2007110700006_pf.html
>>     http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/05/70944
>>     http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/05/kleininterview
>>     http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/01/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-mark-klein-author-of-wiring-up-the-big-brother-machine/
>>     http://www.mainheadlinenews.com/video/qrBapXsLcro
>>     http://www.technewsworld.com/story/60204.html
>>     http://osdir.com/ml/culture.war.guerrelec/2006-04/msg00040.html
>>     http://www.dailytech.com/ATT+Accidentally+Leaks+Incriminating+NSA+Info/article2558.htm
>>     http://www.spamdailynews.com/publish/Bush_administration_to_intervene_in_ATT_surveillance_case.asp
>>     http://www.infowars.com/att-whistleblower-spy-bill-creates-%E2%80%98infrastructure-for-a-police-state%E2%80%99/
>>     http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=74c_1243652643&c=1
>>     https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/obama-doj-worse-than-bush
>>     http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/nsa-denies-wired/
>>
>>     - - -
>>     On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:30 AM, Riaz K Tayob
>>     <riaz.tayob at gmail.com <mailto:riaz.tayob at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Why do you think this is the case?
>>
>>         On 2012/09/07 03:34 AM, Louis Pouzin (well) wrote:
>>
>>             But whatever happens in November, the next USG is
>>             unlikely to change policy on IPR. Watch out.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>     ____________________________________________________________
>     You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>     To be removed from the list, visit:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
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>     For all other list information and functions, see:
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>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>

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From mueller at syr.edu  Mon Sep 10 09:57:45 2012
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:57:45 +0000
Subject: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong
 Kong Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD2210EAE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>

Fantastic, Congratulations, Charles!
I also note that Hong Kong people seem to have successfully resisted P.R. China's plans to "re-educate" their population.
There are also news reports here that HK democrats will win 60% of the 'super' seats (which of course would be a minority overall, given HK's manipulated-multistakeholder governance model)
It was also reported that Tunisia officially abandoned internet censorship last weekend
At least democracy and rights are progressing in some places...

From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 1:51 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Charles Mok (gmail)
Subject: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong Kong Elections

Dear All,

Please join me in warmly congratulating Charles Mok who has just won a seat of the Information Technology Functional Constituency for the Hong Kong Legislative Council with 2, 828 votes, against Samson Tam his only opponent (2063) votes.

I am super glad that Hong Kong has a dynamic, intelligent, hard working advocate as one of its Legislative Councillor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mok

With every best wish Charles!

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From kabani.asif at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 11:38:23 2012
From: kabani.asif at gmail.com (Kabani)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:38:23 +0500
Subject: [governance] Congratulations Charles Mok from the IGC! #Hong
 Kong Elections
In-Reply-To: <1347268562397084500@crossriverstate.gov.ng>
References: <CAJwbTiCyOT2byofAbtNn61hbKkJbAS+Ny=xSx2cGXqCWo6rR1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1347268562397084500@crossriverstate.gov.ng>
Message-ID: <CAOzvoR2BkQPPo0c_nfSLJtQVRCfQbGnj1OYgXo85VLN7UWYjiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulation, - Charles Mok

From
Asif Kabani


On 10 September 2012 14:16, Sonigitu Ekpe <
sonigituekpe at crossriverstate.gov.ng> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> The cap fits  Charles Mok, hence the overwhelming victory.
> Congrats Charles.
>
> --
> Sonigitu Ekpe
> *Project Support Officer[Agriculturist]*
> Cross River Farm Credit Scheme
> Ministry of Agriculture and Natural Resources
> 3 Barracks Road P.M.B. 1119
> Calabar - Cross River State, Nigeria.
> Mobile +234 805 0232 469    Office + 234 802 751 0179
>  *"LIFE is all about love and thanksgiving" *
> Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> Please join me in warmly congratulating Charles Mok who has just won a
> seat of the Information Technology Functional Constituency for the Hong
> Kong Legislative Council with 2, 828 votes, against Samson Tam his only
> opponent (2063) votes.
>
> I am super glad that Hong Kong has a dynamic, intelligent, hard working
> advocate as one of its Legislative Councillor.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mok
>
> With every best wish Charles!
>
> Sala
>
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Charles Mok (gmail) <charlespmok at gmail.com
> > wrote:
> Similar happened in HK yesterday and about 10 social activists including
> one opposition legislator had their fb accounts suspended for a few hours.
>  I contacted fb public policy people and around the same time their
> accounts gradually came back unblocked.  fb has not provided clear
> explanation of the reasons.
>
> English report: (paid content)
>
> http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2c913216495213d5df646910cba0a0a0/?vgnextoid=445f1383709a7310VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=teaser&ss=Hong+Kong&s=News
>
> Widely reported in Chinese newspapers also.
>
> Charles
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 9:00 AM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>wrote:
> Oksana,
>
> Why/on whose orders/recommendation were they blocked?
>
> M
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Oksana
> Prykhodko
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 6:24 PM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; William Drake
> Subject: Re: [governance] Facebook profiles blocked and content removed in
> Brazil
>
>
> Hi, all
>
> Today Facebook blocked accounts of nearly 10 Ukrainian independent
> journalists. But, after active campaign in social media and addresses to
> Facebook CEO, these accounts were unblocked.
>
> May be it is time to think about ombudsmen for social media - as a mediator
> between users and CEO?
>
> Best regards,
> Oksana
>
> 2012/6/1 William Drake <william.drake at uzh.ch>:
> > Hi Marilia
> >
> >
> > On May 31, 2012, at 11:28 PM, Marilia Maciel wrote:
> >
> > I am totally in favor of achieving "harmony" on this and other topics.
> > But this is a crossborder issue that involves private forces and
> > public interest. Tell me the place where we can globally tackle this
> > issue, all together, in a multistakeholder fashion and I will be the
> > first to attend and try to contribute so that “harmony” can come
> > about. But first we probably need to fight for such a space to exist.
> >
> >
> > I guess I'm with Roland and others who'd note that the Internet is not
> > the web and the web is not FB, so while FB's TOR are overly paranoid
> > and restrictive, there are other places to post stuff, and it's at
> > least debatable whether this rises to the level of being global
> > Internet governance.  But I have different questions.  In
> > conversations in Geneva and here (and the IT4C letter did the same),
> > you've cited FB policies as evidence there's an urgent need for
> > enhanced cooperation in the form of a platform under the UN.   But why
> > not organize an online campaign---per ACTA SOPA PIPA—of fellow FB
> > users to put pressure on FB directly (and for that matter, use the IGF
> > in parallel to stoke the debate), rather than creating a centralized
> > uber mechanism responsible for this and all else?
> >  Why do you think a WG/CIRP/whatever that would be populated inter alia
> by
> > Geneva reps of the very governments that make FB paranoid in the first
> place
> > would be more likely to agree that nudity is ok and FB should allow it
> > without fear of government reprisals?
> >
> > There are many CS and other actors who share your concerns about
> > individual issues---FoE IPR privacy surveillance etc---and the meta
> > issue of concentrated power but just have trouble seeing a one-stop
> > shop in the UN as the right solution.  Since the case for why it would
> > be really hasn't been made in any detail, isn't there a risk that
> > insisting it's the only option left-minded people may consider (and in
> > some tellings, that any nonbelievers are morally suspect, don't care
> > about developing countries, etc) just limits coalition building?  Can
> > we agree that at the Baku pre-event and beyond, it'd be useful to work
> > through the relative merits of different institutional designs?
> > Personally, I've always favored WGs in the IGF &
> > strengthening/connecting advocacy coalitions working in different
> > spaces (although as the APC network of networks effort showed, that's
> > difficult), but there are other options, a new UN body being just one.
> > So let's compare and contrast?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From nb at bollow.ch  Mon Sep 10 14:42:01 2012
From: nb at bollow.ch (Norbert Bollow)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:42:01 +0200
Subject: [governance] deliberative democracy (was Re: Big Porn v. Big Web
 Ruling Could Spell Trouble for ICANN...)
In-Reply-To: <504C3775.10709@itforchange.net>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net>
	<CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<504853B4.6080300@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<504C3775.10709@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <20120910204201.0c1acd9a@quill.bollow.ch>

Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
As for 'control by the states' I am happy to
> have any kind of direct democracy not only in IG space but also all
> other spaces of global governance (your view on this please). And
> till we have it, instead of one country dictating to the world,
> representational democracy will do (while all efforts at national and
> international level should be kept up to see that these purported
> 'representatives' are indeed democratically so). Imperfect democracy
> and representativity cannot be taken as an excuse for perpetuating
> hegemony and one-country dictatorship.

This is very true. At the same time, while seeking to improve the
functional systems of democracy, we can also work on providing these
(imperfect but better than all currently available alternatives)
decision making systems with better information on what policy
options are available and what the likely outcomes are.

As a matter of fact I have been thinking quite a bit about what can be
done (as per the theme of this year's IGF) in Internet governance to
make an effective and significant contribution towards sustainable
human, social and economic development which goes beyond what happens
anyway (quite independently of the IGF) if IETF, IANA, the RIRs & co
continue to do what they have been doing, and governments and ITU etc.
don't get in the way. I mean, what is the value that the IGF process can
potentially add towards this particular, rather ambitious but quite
important and absolutely needed, objective?

I have come to the conclusion that this added value will, if it is to
be successfully brought into existence at all, have to be in the area of
catalysing the development of a culture of deliberative
democracy regarding Internet governance topics, together with the
development of suitable online tools. I mean this not as a replacement
for existing decision making systems of representative democracy, but
to complement them, with the goal of those decision making processes
becoming better informed. If this succeeds, it can inspire broader
application of similar approaches in other topic areas, including those
that are more directly critically relevant to achieving the goal of
sustainable human, social and economic development.

(I'm of course talking about my ECTF proposal again, using different
words in trying again to communicate what I've tried to communicate
before, but which I maybe have not succeeded in communicating
effectively enough.)

Greetings,
Norbert

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From mariliamaciel at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 14:58:01 2012
From: mariliamaciel at gmail.com (Marilia Maciel)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:58:01 -0300
Subject: [governance] CGI.br holds its 1st itinerant open meeting
Message-ID: <CACpVkK3c0TC++pSK6vLGxFd3bg-NKMLj0Mq4KwMWyNp5wpGTNg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I would like to share the information that CGI.br has started today an
initiative of holding open meetings in several Brazilian cities, to help
with the democratization and outreach of internet governance issues. The
Civil Rights Framework, network neutrality, principles for Internet
Governance, infrastructure and security issues are on the agenda of this
first two-day meeting that is being held in the city of Manaus, capital of
the state of Amazonas.

The idea is to communicate the activities that are being developed by
CGI.br and to listen to the views and needs of local people, to incorporate
this in CGI's policies. Most of the members of CGI's multistakeholder
steering committee are there, which is great.

The link to the live webcast is: http://cgi.br/reuniao-manaus/  (in
Portuguese only).

Another recent development was the creation of multistakeholder
consultative chambers on issues such as access, digital content, security,
innovation, education, to help to introduce different perspectives to CGI's
steering committee discussions. The first meeting of these chambers took
place last month and an annual plan of action is being finalized. I would
be happy to share further information about that.

Best wishes!
Marília


-- 
Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade
FGV Direito Rio

Center for Technology and Society
Getulio Vargas Foundation
Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
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From salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 15:52:17 2012
From: salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com (Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:52:17 +1200
Subject: [governance] CGI.br holds its 1st itinerant open meeting
In-Reply-To: <CACpVkK3c0TC++pSK6vLGxFd3bg-NKMLj0Mq4KwMWyNp5wpGTNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACpVkK3c0TC++pSK6vLGxFd3bg-NKMLj0Mq4KwMWyNp5wpGTNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJwbTiBYrcrkOJXAC5ZfkcXhtsNTJqEzzsJUjWiN4HO6egxGjw@mail.gmail.com>

This is really awesome Marilia especially that they are open meetings in
several Braziliian cities. Congratulations CGI.br It is important that
discussions are encouraged at grassroots level.

I will send the link to the people in Timor Leste also who speak Portugese
as I am sure they will be interested.

Best wishes and please keep us updated.

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 6:58 AM, Marilia Maciel <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I would like to share the information that CGI.br has started today an
> initiative of holding open meetings in several Brazilian cities, to help
> with the democratization and outreach of internet governance issues. The
> Civil Rights Framework, network neutrality, principles for Internet
> Governance, infrastructure and security issues are on the agenda of this
> first two-day meeting that is being held in the city of Manaus, capital of
> the state of Amazonas.
>
> The idea is to communicate the activities that are being developed by
> CGI.br and to listen to the views and needs of local people, to incorporate
> this in CGI's policies. Most of the members of CGI's multistakeholder
> steering committee are there, which is great.
>
> The link to the live webcast is: http://cgi.br/reuniao-manaus/  (in
> Portuguese only).
>
> Another recent development was the creation of multistakeholder
> consultative chambers on issues such as access, digital content, security,
> innovation, education, to help to introduce different perspectives to CGI's
> steering committee discussions. The first meeting of these chambers took
> place last month and an annual plan of action is being finalized. I would
> be happy to share further information about that.
>
> Best wishes!
> Marília
>
>
> --
> Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade
> FGV Direito Rio
>
> Center for Technology and Society
> Getulio Vargas Foundation
> Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
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From nb at bollow.ch  Mon Sep 10 15:55:00 2012
From: nb at bollow.ch (Norbert Bollow)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:55:00 +0200
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <504D964B.3050309@gmail.com>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net>
	<CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<504853B4.6080300@itforchange.net>
	<855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>
	<504C3775.10709@itforchange.net>
	<77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B135E25@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
	<504D964B.3050309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120910215500.38dd57c1@quill.bollow.ch>

Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:

> ICANN enjoys the discretion of complying or not. At national levels 
> court's may refuse to even hear a case over which it will render an 
> "empty judgement" - hence issues of jurisdiction and effective 
> enforcement would play up here to even ensure legal standing. So the 
> sufficiency of the argument on national (other than US) control is
> much more complicated than at first sight.

Another aspect which complicates the matter, even if we assume that a
non-US national court would agree to assert jurisdiction, is the
following: Given that the kind of Internet governance questions that
could become court cases almost certainly weren't explicitly considered
when the relevant national laws were written, chances are that the
written laws will not be strictly deterministic of what the outcome of
the court case should be. National courts outside the US might, even in
countries with strong independence of the courts from the preferences
of other branches of government, choose to exercise their discretion by
following the example of how US courts have ruled on that kind of
matter. It certainly seems to me that there is an international
tendency of more and more adopting the US ways of thinking about
various legal matters even when other ways of thinking about those
topics locally have a longer tradition and are at least equally
justifiable. In countries where the court system is less independent, a
similar outcome might result after the executive branch of government
receives a more or less veiled threat of retaliation from the US
embassy.

My conclusion is that the legal foundation of ICANN really should be
fixed so that such questions of jurisdiction have answers which are
reasonably clear and internationally acceptable (which US hegemony in
any form or shape clearly isn't.) 

Greetings,
Norbert

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From charityg at diplomacy.edu  Tue Sep 11 01:04:21 2012
From: charityg at diplomacy.edu (Charity Gamboa)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:04:21 -0500
Subject: [governance] United Airlines 'Network Outage' Snarls Air Travel
In-Reply-To: <CABBOhxoVH46Q=dWqTZ6Ff0b_SiCpmjFkz2Yc45+0vO2db9JDhg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABBOhxoVH46Q=dWqTZ6Ff0b_SiCpmjFkz2Yc45+0vO2db9JDhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABDWBFqSto5FRfzZgKx5ZiFwgT=TcZRBrtbTx-JV=ArM20Tdxw@mail.gmail.com>

You know - network outage may happen anywhere. We rely so much on
technology we sometimes feel "handicapped" without it. I taught using
smartboards and have made accommodations on computer use for people who are
handicapped or with learning disabilities. When our network crashed, I had
no choice but to teach the old-fashioned way of paper, highlighter and pen.
We can't cancel classes just because the Internet is down or the local
network is out. This goes to  airlines who are as vulnerable as any company
who rely on the network to do its work. I don't see how tweeting every
minute until the plane leaves will accomplish anything other than
you have no choice but for you to wait until the plane leaves. A couple of
months ago my city had a power outage which messed up all the traffic
lights. Networks went down for 6 hours. I was stuck in traffic and the
intersection becomes a 4-way stop until uniformed and even off-duty cops
directed traffic. Has anyone ever seen how traffic enforcers in the
Philippines would dance while directing traffic in order to entertain
motorists?  I just think that people complain too much. My students
complain too much. Would you expect a college student to run back for a
textbook to their dorm? Nope - but they will if they forgot their phone.
  We only just seem to think we are powerless when in fact human ingenuity
is still alive.

Regards,
Charity

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 1:15 AM, Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57502077-92/united-airlines-network-outage-snarls-air-travel/
>
> This is the ugly side of relying heavily on technology.
>
> Fahd
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
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From shailam at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 04:15:47 2012
From: shailam at yahoo.com (shaila mistry)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 01:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [governance] United Airlines 'Network Outage' Snarls Air Travel
Message-ID: <1347351347.27029.YahooMailMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Well said. We have too much dependence on technology and have suspended common sense !! What is even more scary is that we have raised a generation that is rendered helpless without computers and cell phones ! 
Shaila Rao Mistry 
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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Tue Sep 11 04:47:13 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:17:13 +0530
Subject: [governance] United Airlines 'Network Outage' Snarls Air Travel
In-Reply-To: <1347351347.27029.YahooMailMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1347351347.27029.YahooMailMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKSTxmj6xEUek0Hs4D8911DdrcNP0qkQ-nHpECcckUrFAg@mail.gmail.com>

*
>
> "...we have raised a generation that is rendered helpless without
> computers and cell phones..."

*

Agreed. I'm going to make it a point to have my kids learn to survive
without these "modern" conveniences...

-C

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:45 PM, shaila mistry <shailam at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Well said. We have too much dependence on technology and have suspended
> common sense !! What is even more scary is that we have raised a generation
> that is rendered helpless without computers and cell phones !
> Shaila Rao Mistry
>
>  ------------------------------
> * From: * Charity Gamboa <charityg at diplomacy.edu>;
> * To: * <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Fahd A. Batayneh <
> fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>;
> * Subject: * Re: [governance] United Airlines 'Network Outage' Snarls Air
> Travel
> * Sent: * Tue, Sep 11, 2012 5:04:21 AM
>
>   You know - network outage may happen anywhere. We rely so much on
> technology we sometimes feel "handicapped" without it. I taught using
> smartboards and have made accommodations on computer use for people who are
> handicapped or with learning disabilities. When our network crashed, I had
> no choice but to teach the old-fashioned way of paper, highlighter and pen.
> We can't cancel classes just because the Internet is down or the local
> network is out. This goes to  airlines who are as vulnerable as any company
> who rely on the network to do its work. I don't see how tweeting every
> minute until the plane leaves will accomplish anything other than
> you have no choice but for you to wait until the plane leaves. A couple of
> months ago my city had a power outage which messed up all the traffic
> lights. Networks went down for 6 hours. I was stuck in traffic and the
> intersection becomes a 4-way stop until uniformed and even off-duty cops
> directed traffic. Has anyone ever seen how traffic enforcers in the
> Philippines would dance while directing traffic in order to entertain
> motorists?  I just think that people complain too much. My students
> complain too much. Would you expect a college student to run back for a
> textbook to their dorm? Nope - but they will if they forgot their phone.
>   We only just seem to think we are powerless when in fact human ingenuity
> is still alive.
>
> Regards,
> Charity
>
> On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 1:15 AM, Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57502077-92/united-airlines-network-outage-snarls-air-travel/
>>
>> This is the ugly side of relying heavily on technology.
>>
>> Fahd
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
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From riaz.tayob at gmail.com  Tue Sep 11 04:53:08 2012
From: riaz.tayob at gmail.com (Riaz K Tayob)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:53:08 +0300
Subject: [governance] United Airlines 'Network Outage' Snarls Air Travel
In-Reply-To: <CAEP5zKSTxmj6xEUek0Hs4D8911DdrcNP0qkQ-nHpECcckUrFAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1347351347.27029.YahooMailMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <CAEP5zKSTxmj6xEUek0Hs4D8911DdrcNP0qkQ-nHpECcckUrFAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <504EFBF4.5040708@gmail.com>

Not so clear cut I am afraid (not saying there should not be 
contingencies...) technology attenuates (strengthens, compensates, 
enhances, etc) humans... because well we are partly so ill adapted to 
our environment (hence a "technological fetish",however commodified or 
not)... and this brings convenience... so we use technology... and at 
some point as someone famous once said, technology uses us...

it is a dialectical relationship...


On 2012/09/11 11:47 AM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar wrote:
> /
>
>     "...we have raised a generation that is rendered helpless without
>     computers and cell phones..."
>
> /
> Agreed. I'm going to make it a point to have my kids learn to survive 
> without these "modern" conveniences...
> -C
>
> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:45 PM, shaila mistry <shailam at yahoo.com 
> <mailto:shailam at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>     Well said. We have too much dependence on technology and have
>     suspended common sense !! What is even more scary is that we have
>     raised a generation that is rendered helpless without computers
>     and cell phones !
>     Shaila Rao Mistry
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From: * Charity Gamboa <charityg at diplomacy.edu
>     <mailto:charityg at diplomacy.edu>>;
>     *To: * <governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>     <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>>; Fahd A. Batayneh
>     <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com <mailto:fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>>;
>     *Subject: * Re: [governance] United Airlines 'Network Outage'
>     Snarls Air Travel
>     *Sent: * Tue, Sep 11, 2012 5:04:21 AM
>
>     You know - network outage may happen anywhere. We rely so much on
>     technology we sometimes feel "handicapped" without it. I taught
>     using smartboards and have made accommodations on computer use for
>     people who are handicapped or with learning disabilities. When our
>     network crashed, I had no choice but to teach the old-fashioned
>     way of paper, highlighter and pen. We can't cancel classes just
>     because the Internet is down or the local network is out. This
>     goes to  airlines who are as vulnerable as any company who rely on
>     the network to do its work. I don't see how tweeting every minute
>     until the plane leaves will accomplish anything other than
>     you have no choice but for you to wait until the plane leaves. A
>     couple of months ago my city had a power outage which messed up
>     all the traffic lights. Networks went down for 6 hours. I was
>     stuck in traffic and the intersection becomes a 4-way stop until
>     uniformed and even off-duty cops directed traffic. Has anyone ever
>     seen how traffic enforcers in the Philippines would dance while
>     directing traffic in order to entertain motorists?  I just think
>     that people complain too much. My students complain too much.
>     Would you expect a college student to run back for a textbook to
>     their dorm? Nope - but they will if they forgot their phone.   We
>     only just seem to think we are powerless when in fact human
>     ingenuity is still alive.
>
>     Regards,
>     Charity
>
>     On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 1:15 AM, Fahd A. Batayneh
>     <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>         http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57502077-92/united-airlines-network-outage-snarls-air-travel/
>
>         This is the ugly side of relying heavily on technology.
>
>         Fahd
>
>         ____________________________________________________________
>         You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>         governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>         To be removed from the list, visit:
>         http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
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>
>
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From chaitanyabd at gmail.com  Tue Sep 11 05:01:17 2012
From: chaitanyabd at gmail.com (Chaitanya Dhareshwar)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:31:17 +0530
Subject: [governance] United Airlines 'Network Outage' Snarls Air Travel
In-Reply-To: <504EFBF4.5040708@gmail.com>
References: <1347351347.27029.YahooMailMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CAEP5zKSTxmj6xEUek0Hs4D8911DdrcNP0qkQ-nHpECcckUrFAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<504EFBF4.5040708@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEP5zKRf8qnATbMia+mUyBnLX=ahVvCOPcgNEyDkRgX8KvmRNQ@mail.gmail.com>

True. However it's not that there's no workaround in most on-the-ground
circumstances - if the computer doesnt work we use a paper and pencil so
the work gets done (it actually means a bit of a vacation for me since I'm
the it manager)... "tech-fetish" is very true; even the most non-techie of
non-techies wants a laptop and an iPad today.... I dont know they seem to
think it's a status symbol or a trophy of some kind.

And every so often we get the device back a few months later, completely
unused with a dead battery. Still in the original casing. Dust free.

-C

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Not so clear cut I am afraid (not saying there should not be
> contingencies...) technology attenuates (strengthens, compensates,
> enhances, etc) humans... because well we are partly so ill adapted to our
> environment (hence a "technological fetish",however commodified or not)...
> and this brings convenience... so we use technology... and at some point as
> someone famous once said, technology uses us...
>
> it is a dialectical relationship...
>
>
>
> On 2012/09/11 11:47 AM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar wrote:
>
> *
>>
>> "...we have raised a generation that is rendered helpless without
>> computers and cell phones..."
>
> *
>
> Agreed. I'm going to make it a point to have my kids learn to survive
> without these "modern" conveniences...
>
> -C
>
>  On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:45 PM, shaila mistry <shailam at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>   Well said. We have too much dependence on technology and have
>> suspended common sense !! What is even more scary is that we have raised a
>> generation that is rendered helpless without computers and cell phones !
>> Shaila Rao Mistry
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> * From: * Charity Gamboa <charityg at diplomacy.edu>;
>> * To: * <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Fahd A. Batayneh <
>> fahd.batayneh at gmail.com>;
>> * Subject: * Re: [governance] United Airlines 'Network Outage' Snarls
>> Air Travel
>> * Sent: * Tue, Sep 11, 2012 5:04:21 AM
>>
>>   You know - network outage may happen anywhere. We rely so much on
>> technology we sometimes feel "handicapped" without it. I taught using
>> smartboards and have made accommodations on computer use for people who are
>> handicapped or with learning disabilities. When our network crashed, I had
>> no choice but to teach the old-fashioned way of paper, highlighter and pen.
>> We can't cancel classes just because the Internet is down or the local
>> network is out. This goes to  airlines who are as vulnerable as any company
>> who rely on the network to do its work. I don't see how tweeting every
>> minute until the plane leaves will accomplish anything other than
>> you have no choice but for you to wait until the plane leaves. A couple of
>> months ago my city had a power outage which messed up all the traffic
>> lights. Networks went down for 6 hours. I was stuck in traffic and the
>> intersection becomes a 4-way stop until uniformed and even off-duty cops
>> directed traffic. Has anyone ever seen how traffic enforcers in the
>> Philippines would dance while directing traffic in order to entertain
>> motorists?  I just think that people complain too much. My students
>> complain too much. Would you expect a college student to run back for a
>> textbook to their dorm? Nope - but they will if they forgot their phone.
>>   We only just seem to think we are powerless when in fact human ingenuity
>> is still alive.
>>
>>  Regards,
>> Charity
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 1:15 AM, Fahd A. Batayneh <fahd.batayneh at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57502077-92/united-airlines-network-outage-snarls-air-travel/
>>>
>>> This is the ugly side of relying heavily on technology.
>>>
>>> Fahd
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>
>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>
>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>> To be removed from the list, visit:
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>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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From nb at bollow.ch  Tue Sep 11 05:09:33 2012
From: nb at bollow.ch (Norbert Bollow)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:09:33 +0200
Subject: [governance] United Airlines 'Network Outage' Snarls Air Travel
In-Reply-To: <CABDWBFqSto5FRfzZgKx5ZiFwgT=TcZRBrtbTx-JV=ArM20Tdxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABBOhxoVH46Q=dWqTZ6Ff0b_SiCpmjFkz2Yc45+0vO2db9JDhg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABDWBFqSto5FRfzZgKx5ZiFwgT=TcZRBrtbTx-JV=ArM20Tdxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120911110933.70c0c56a@quill.bollow.ch>

Charity Gamboa <charityg at diplomacy.edu> wrote:

> You know - network outage may happen anywhere.

It's possible to design a network for resilience, with enough
redundancy to avoid any single points of failure. This is significantly
more expensive (you don't only have to pay for more equipment, but
also more expensive experts to design and implement it), but I think
that an airline which doesn't have this kind of robust network really
doesn't have any excuse.

Greetings,
Norbert 

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From daniel at digsys.bg  Tue Sep 11 05:45:30 2012
From: daniel at digsys.bg (Daniel Kalchev)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:45:30 +0300
Subject: [governance] United Airlines 'Network Outage' Snarls Air Travel
In-Reply-To: <20120911110933.70c0c56a@quill.bollow.ch>
References: <CABBOhxoVH46Q=dWqTZ6Ff0b_SiCpmjFkz2Yc45+0vO2db9JDhg@mail.gmail.com> <CABDWBFqSto5FRfzZgKx5ZiFwgT=TcZRBrtbTx-JV=ArM20Tdxw@mail.gmail.com> <20120911110933.70c0c56a@quill.bollow.ch>
Message-ID: <504F083A.2050401@digsys.bg>



On 11.09.12 12:09, Norbert Bollow wrote:
> Charity Gamboa<charityg at diplomacy.edu>  wrote:
>
>> You know - network outage may happen anywhere.
> It's possible to design a network for resilience, with enough
> redundancy to avoid any single points of failure. This is significantly
> more expensive (you don't only have to pay for more equipment, but
> also more expensive experts to design and implement it), but I think
> that an airline which doesn't have this kind of robust network really
> doesn't have any excuse.

Very much agree. The thing is, all these airlines claim, and are 
"obviously" certified to have such infrastructure in place.
Not only the airlines, but everywhere around us there is too much public 
infrastructure, that implemented in so many naive ways, that it barely 
"somehow works".

It is not only about being "more expensive". These airlines probably 
already paid more than enough to bunch of "certified experts" and all 
sorts of consultants. Since networking of this kind is relatively "new", 
the principle "anything goes" applies.

And, those people who endorse such lousy network implementations are the 
same people who insist they should govern the Internet?

Daniel

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From parminder at itforchange.net  Tue Sep 11 05:49:31 2012
From: parminder at itforchange.net (parminder)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:19:31 +0530
Subject: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for
 ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
In-Reply-To: <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B135E25@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
References: <CANjKdAi3pLsx8Ar1hePASw-uJECd0GdW37quokh+kEO-5LUHgA@mail.gmail.com> <50332E85.8060106@itforchange.net> <CAJwbTiD+Qi9O5CC7qTZj2pxEtS96ZvUQoGrOQ+LKkaxeZ3EBNQ@mail.gmail.com> <50333A5C.7060908@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD21F9B4D@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <5038BD70.7080909@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD22082FD@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <503F0CA3.3020801@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220B5DE@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu> <504853B4.6080300@itforchange.net> <855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu>,<504C3775.10709@itforchange.net> <77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B135E25@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <504F092B.1090807@itforchange.net>



Hi Lee,

We live in a world that is made of territorially defined and bound 
jurisdictions. Plus, there is some international law/ jurisdiction, 
albeit rather weak. There are no doubts exceptions, whereby territorial 
jurisdictions are able to, in some way or the other, reach out to other 
parts of the world. (This mostly happens  on the 'powerful gets his way' 
principle, which is not to be recommended.) Admittedly, there are more 
such instances in a more connected world today then ever before, but 
they still are 'exceptions'.  The problem is that Milton and you are 
trying to propose a governance system out of these exceptions. No, it 
doesn't work that way. We cant work with exceptions, we have to work 
with the main system. And the main system is broken, for which please 
see below...


On Monday 10 September 2012 02:11 AM, Lee W McKnight wrote:
> Hey Parminder,
>
> If Milton's signing off, I'll sign on for one more attempt.
>
> My aim is not to encourage lawsuits against the hegemon's proxy ICANN 
> - but I feel them coming on anyway, with the .xxx one just the tip of 
> the hegemon's melting iceberg.  (I'm enjoying this 70s flashback, 
> don't get to use the word hegemon twice in one sentence often these 
> days : )

You do agree that there are many lawsuits coming ICANN's way. Are we 
prepared for the outcomes of these lawsuits, which are as inevitable. 
How long will the US executive be able to put persuasive pressure on the 
US judiciary to not do anything that may rock the boat. I dont think the 
US judiciary is that subservient, and, sooner or later,it will 
decisively apply the law. In an email on 27th Aug, responding to my 
specific poser,David Conrad developed the scenario that may follow an 
adverse decision in the .xxx case. It culminated in the 'possibility' of 
.xxx having to be removed from the root. Are we prepared for this 
eventuality. Would the legitimacy of the system not collapse right away! 
(I must mention here that David thought it wont).

There could be other impacts of an adverse decision in the .xxx case; 
ICANN may be directed by the court to review all its policies and 
actions vis a vis whatever the court thinks needs to be done to ensure 
consistent application of US's anti-trust (or any other) law. ICANN will 
immediately *have* to  do so....

Are you/ we prepared for this very plausible scenario? Responsible 
governance systems and its stakeholders do not just sit around and wait 
for such a 'very probable' eventuality to happen. What is our response/ 
preparation to it? Does this not suggest that the present system of 
oversight of, and jurisdiction application over, ICANN is broken?

Your and Milton's response to it seems to be: it does not matter if 
ICANN has to do all the above things on directions of a US court; we 
will simply tell all the outraged/ protesting people from other 
countries that ICANN will also respond *exactly" in the same manner if a 
court from their countries (India, Ghana, Nepa, Indonesia, Brazil etc) 
were to find faults with ICANN and propose remedial measures. /This will 
be a patently untrue statement/. I can assure you that no one will buy 
it. So, I advice you, please be ready for some other response.

As for your and Milton's claim that if ICANN is subject to international 
law, the corresponding immunities that it will get from national 
jurisdiction could be a problem. Yes, it could be a problem for USians, 
since at present ICANN is subject to their national law. It is not a 
such problem to people of other countries. On the other hand, it should 
be obvious that any international law will be framed in a manner that 
takes as much account of ICANN functions as possible.Even if specific 
legal provisions do not exist in some aspects, the international system 
is capable of delivering on basis of principles of natural justice and 
other such forms of jurisprudence.

Thanks, but we can do without US law getting imposed on the whole world, 
which, to me, is what your and Milton's critique of 'any' international 
system/ jurisdiction is all about.

parminder

>
> So here's my free legal counsel for you: anyone anywhere can play.
>
> Just as there was nothing to prevent Google or Yahoo, or earlier 
> Compuserve being taken to court in France or Brazil, or Germany and 
> Italy, and senior executives threatened, tried, sentenced and/or 
> subject to arrest if they set foot in those countries - meaning even 
> if they had no staff there, but just passed through say the Frankfurt 
> airport, or stopped in Rome for a vacation  -  so too could ICANN 
> staff be subject to arrest; and ICANN fined for example, should it not 
> obey a court order in Pakistan or India or anywhere else.
>
> We can review the specific circumstances in the various cases I 
> mentioned in passing if you want, but basically the message is as the 
> Internet and Internet services pervades more deeply into all nation's 
> daily lives, then we should not be surprised when ICANN is, 
> eventually, challenged in various nation's courts. Most readily where 
> the organization has an establishment, meaning staff as in Brussels 
> and Australia. But even absent staff presence, I could roll out 100 
> hypothetical scenarios on how ICANN decisions could be challenged, in 
> Pakistani or Indian, or Brunei's, really any nation's legal system.
>
> Just cuz it's a non-profit with a SoCal HQ does not mean the 
> organization is exempt from - any - legal sanction, anywhere.
>
> Whether the balance of power over the administration of changes to the 
> root zone file, and/or the creation of this or that new gtld, should 
> be a matter of hundreds of national jurisdictions, or handled through 
> some form of global collective action, is indeed the question. But 
> while I am practicing law without a license here, as the saying goes 
> in US domestic politics, at least I am making reality based 
> statements.  Every single thing ICANN does could be challenged in any 
> national court.  Winning a case, and/or explaining to a judge or jury 
> why a case was brought, is of course never a sure thing. But the 
> ability in principle of Indian courts to rule on cases in which Indian 
> citizens, businesses, and/or government agencies claim injury, is not 
> in any way impaired by the location of ICANN's HQ.
>
> ICANN, on the other hand, if established under international public or 
> private law, could indeed gain various immunities, which its actions 
> do not now enjoy. Milton's 100% right to say careful what we wish for 
> here, since moving to a treaty or international convention as the 
> source of ICANN's legal status, could just as easily make ICANN less 
> responsive as more responsive to national jurisdictions, and 
> individuals. ANY national jurisdiction. But that is a possibility and 
> not a certainty, as it would depend on the specifics agreed to by 
> nations signing onto that hypothetical treaty.
>
> If you don't believe me, just ask any practicing international 
> (private) lawyer. I'm guessing her answer would be another question: 
> how deep are your pockets? : ) But anyone with enough money to make 
> the challenge to for example - any - gtld string, can follow ICANN 
> procedures, or they can turn to their own national courts. Although 
> those courts might find it annoying if they are dragged into the 
> middle of an arcane dispute if remedies from within the ICANN system 
> were not exhausted first.
>
> Unfortunately, like I said some time back, this whole dialogue has 
> gotten - more or less nowhere - since apparently it is more fun to 
> flash back to the 80s or hegemonic 70s than try to make sense of what 
> should be done next, to align ICANN and other elements of Internet 
> governance more closely with all of the global communities that are 
> affected by those decisions.
>
> Since there has been no new or original suggestions made, then we do 
> seem to be stuck in a time warp. A domestic US non-profit corporation, 
> albeit one that strives mightily to - should I say sucker, or invite? 
> : ) - people from around the world to do the heavy volunteer lifting 
> to keep the global net up and operating, is the main game in the 
> global Internet governance village, still.
>
> Seeing as apparently noone has a better idea, or has even concrete 
> suggestions on how to get from here to there, there being a more 
> globally equitable future, then yeah we are stuck.  Bummer.
>
> Or maybe, I repeat again, this dialogue, while at times fun, really 
> suggests it is time to get serious about Norbert's enhanced 
> cooperation task force idea to figure a way forward. Since none of us 
> are managing to do any better, absent that. imho.   If we are counting 
> on the ITU to do so in December....well I got a few virtual bridges 
> for sale that are more solid.  Better to give the (IGF-responsive) 
> task force idea a shot, I suggest.
>
> Lee
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org 
> [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] on behalf of parminder 
> [parminder at itforchange.net]
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 09, 2012 2:30 AM
> *To:* Milton L Mueller
> *Cc:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> *Subject:* Re: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell 
> Trouble for ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs
>
>
> On Thursday 06 September 2012 10:42 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
>>
>> Parminder, your responses are degenerating beyond the point where it 
>> is worth responding.
>>
>
> You are just getting desperate, Milton...
>>
>> You seem to be more interested in playing rhetorical games than in 
>> reaching agreement or improving understanding.
>>
>
> Meaning, rather than simply agreeing with your most untenable 
> proposition about parity of application of jurisdiction over ICANN 
> between US and all other 191 states.
>
>> I will point out the reasons I say these things and then suspend any 
>> further communication with you on these issues
>>
>>     */[Milton L Mueller] Any law from ANY jurisdiction constraining
>>     or dictating ICANN’s action would have global effect, insofar as
>>     the global Internet relies on ICANN to administer the DNS./*
>>
>>
>> Milton, In face of clear facts to the contrary, you continue to claim 
>> that EU's, India's, Ghana's, all of 192 government's, jurisdictions 
>> have similar implication and impact on ICANN. I dont think I need to 
>> labour to disprove this patently absurd proposition.
>>
>> ØRead my sentence, which is a conditional statement and says that if 
>> "any law from any jurisdiction"
>>
>> Øcould "constrain or dictate ICANN's action" it would have global 
>> effect.
>>
>
> Your above statement - 'If' any law from any jurisdiction 'could' 
> constrain or dictate ICANN's action, it would have global effect - 
> says nothing at all other that that 'ICANN's actions have global 
> effect', something which no one disputes. What other meaning does this 
> sentence carry?
>
>  What is under disputation is - laws from '*/which/*' jurisdiction can 
> constraint or dictate ICANN's '/*global*/' actions? You say that laws 
> from all 192 country jurisdictions have the 'same' (or at least 
> similar) effect as from US's jurisdiction of 'constraining or 
> dictating ICANN's /*global*/ action'. This is what I call as a 
> /*patently absurd proposition. */
>
>> But just to continue with the present discussion on the .xxx case, 
>> even if the ICM registry was * not* US based, the porn industry 
>> majors could/ would have brought the case against ICANN for 
>> instituting .xxx (since the registry would of course have serviced 
>> domain name demands from the US among others). ICANN would still be 
>> forced to defend itself in the case, and if it lost the case to annul 
>> or modify .xxx agreement.
>>
>> ØI have asked you two questions related to this that you have 
>> steadfastly ducked:
>>
>> Ø1) Do you think ICANN should be immune from antitrust? Yes or no.
>>
>
> Of course ICANN should be subject to all kinds of public interest 
> laws, as every entity should be - anti-trust, but also others, like 
> those aimed at preserving and deepening public domain..... ( thus 
> being prevented from giving off generic names like school, kid, 
> beauty, cloud etc as private tlds).
>
>> Ø2) What stops such a case from being brought in the EU? ICANN has 
>> offices in Brussels, and its "service" or operations could be 
>> considered global, thus in the EU.
>>
>
> First of all, you are cleverly skipping examples of India, Ghana and 
> Bangladesh that I used, and only employing EU's case becuase ICANN has 
> an office there... Your argument can be challenged simply on this 
> ground, what about the other countries, especially the developing ones 
> where ICANN chooses not to have an office. (Equity, Milton, equity, 
> dont lose sight of this simple democratic value!)
>
> On the other hand, even if ICANN has a Brussels office, this fact does 
> not put EU's jurisdiction over ICANN anywhere close to a similar level 
> to US's. Apart from the fact that, if the push comes to shove, ICANN 
> can simply close or shift Brussels office,  offshore offices have 
> often claimed lack of control over and accountability for parent 
> bodies decisions vis a vis the jurisdictions in which they are 
> located.  (This is well known, but if you want examples, I can give them.)
>
>> It does not take a political scientist to understand that the same is 
>> not true vis a vis the jurisdiction of any other of 192 countries.
>>
>> ØYou have not made any argument to explain why this is true. You have 
>> merely asserted it.
>>
>
> No, I did make a clear argument using the scenario of an .xxx related 
> case being brought in a Bangladesh court. Pl see my last email to 
> which you respond. But you completely ignored that argument.
>
>> ØThe US antitrust case is in fact no different from an antitrust case 
>> that might be brought in the EU,
>>
>
> Completely wrong. For such a case brought in the EU, even if .xxx 
> registry was based in EU, (1) ICANN is not obliged to defend the case 
> (2) even if .xxx was to lose the case, it is the registry that will 
> have to renege from the ICANN agreement, ICANN would have to do 
> 'nothing'. However if the case is lost in the US, ICANN itself has to 
> undertake certain actions- and also keep the judicial verdict in mind 
> for future actions - something which is incongruent with ICANN's 
> global governance status. That is the point.
>
> On the other hand, and I said this in the previous email as well, 
> which you seem to read selectively, even if .xxx registry was not in 
> the US, the porn industry could still have brought the case to a US 
> court against ICANN- .xxx agreement, which is simply not possible vis 
> a vis any other country jurisdiction.
>
>> ØIf indeed ICANN were engaged in restraint of the domain name trade 
>> in conjunction with a EU-based
>>
>> Øregistry, the effect would be exactly the same in both cases. 
>> ICANN's status as a California Corp.
>>
>> Ømakes no difference here.
>>
>
> see above
>>
>> snip
>>
>> And if it indeed is already subject to 192 jurisdiction, even 
>> efficiency, since you dont recognise issues of equity and democracy
>>
>> ØYou lost me here. I am the one in favor of democracy (e.g., election 
>> of ICANN board), you are the one in favor of control by states.
>>
>
> I am glad to have an elected board if you can assemble the electorate 
> in a manner that is equitous and then ensure fair polling. Please tell 
> me your proposal. As for 'control by the states' I am happy to have 
> any kind of direct democracy not only in IG space but also all other 
> spaces of global governance (your view on this please). And till we 
> have it, instead of one country dictating to the world, 
> representational democracy will do (while all efforts at national and 
> international level should be kept up to see that these purported 
> 'representatives' are indeed democratically so). Imperfect democracy 
> and representativity cannot be taken as an excuse for perpetuating 
> hegemony and one-country dictatorship.
>
> with regards
>
> parminder
>
>>
>>
>

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