AW: [governance] Principles

Mon Oct 1 16:48:56 EDT 2012

Dear all

though I enjoy this discussion I think there are two underlying problems. 1) Most notions of democracy used in this (and a lot of other) debate(s) are state-centred. They are no longer tenable as a legitimating basis for the production of rules in transnational constellations. To ensure that they are legitimate, we need a new concept of democrac. 2)  Discussants often mix  up two different notions of democracy: the formal and the material one. Formally, democracy demands that each vote be counted. But that's not enough. Over the years there has been developed an international cumstomary law basis of what democracy materially truly means - human rights-based, accountable government (and good governance) based on real, periodic, secret elections. 

What does this mean for our debate? We need to focus not on democracy as a concept, but legitimacy as a goal.

How does this work? First of all, we need to look at the material, not the formal, notion of democracy. We need to ensure that the rules we aim for are materially reflective of the needs of those to whom they are applied. 

Second, 'one (wo)man, one vote' is a nice slogan, but it's just no enough in our post-national constellation. We have to think about how in the 'post-democratic' order (in the sense of post-nation state-based democracy) order legitimacy can be conveyed in the process of producing norms. 

Now, what does this mean for the Internet Governance debate? We need to identify the best process of how to convey legitimacy. This process, as has been pointed out, is multistakeholderism. But multistakeholderism is not a form of participatory democracy; it is a new form of conveying legitimacy in post-democratic trans-national constellations. 

Just as good democracy does nationally, multistakeholder-baesd decision-making have heightened input legitimacy and lead to normative outcomes that are materially reflective of the individual’s central needs (and thus have high output legitimacy). 

This is one of the points I'm making in the published version of my PhD which Eleven International will publish in autumn.

So less talk about democracy, and more talk about legitimacy. 

Kind regards

Matthias

--
Dr. Matthias C. Kettemann, LL.M. (Harvard)
Institute of International Law and International Relations
University of Graz
E | matthias.kettemann at uni-graz.at
Blog | internationallawandtheinternet.blogspot.com
________________________________________
Von: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] im Auftrag von Norbert Bollow [nb at bollow.ch]
Gesendet: Montag, 01. Oktober 2012 22:23
An: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Betreff: Re: [governance] Principles

Dear all

I'm rather alarmed by Wolfgang's assertion that "Multistakeholderism
*IS* the highest form of participatory democracy".

I would suggest that the main point of democracy is to safeguard the
public interest against being overpowered by powerful particular
interests.

By contrast, multistakeholderism allows all stakeholders to participate
without restriction. This implies that it cannot contain adequate
processes for making decisions on those questions which, due to
significant conflicts between different legitimate interest, cannot be
resolved by rough consensus.

It is true that democratic governance systems tend to have
imperfections, and I'm all in favor of working on fixing any and all
bugs that can be clearly identified and for which a known solution
strategy exists. One of these bugs is the current tendency of
governments (including in particular the judicial branch) to make
Internet related decisions without understanding what they're doing.
As you know I'm proposing to address this bug by means of a
multistakeholder process to create informative recommendation
documents to inform them better.
( http://enhanced-cooperation.org/RFA/1 )

But please let's avoid talking about multistakeholderism as if it in
itself somehow were an improved form of democracy. It isn't.

Further, I agree with the points made by Michael Gurstein and David
Allen.

Greetings,
Norbert

David Allen <David_Allen_AB63 at post.harvard.edu> wrote:

> How many times has this list been around this track ...?
>
> Norbert Klein rightly brings to attention the difficulties to which
> democracy can be prey.
>
> And Winston Churchill helped us understand - in that very sober
> light
> - where we stand today:  "... democracy is the worst form of
> government except all the others that have been tried."
>
> By no stretch of the imagination does so-called multi-stakeholderism
> hold out prospect to be a replacement.
>
> That does not of course remove the terrible blemishes democracy may
> create.  In fact, another Churchill quote holds that:  "The best
> argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the
> average voter."
>
> What is clear is that we just might benefit from some quality
> thinking and some hard, collaborative work, to try to understand how
> representativeness may be instantiated, in a much-more-connected
> world, and especially in a world that now truly becomes global.
> Where agreement among very many, and many very different, actors is
> now often urgent.  But more and more difficult to cobble together,
> because of the scale and attendant complexity.  Yet, ultimate power
> in individual citizen hands is therefore all the more paramount, as
> the starting point.
>
> Rather than shibboleths, as seemingly easy - but really just facile
> - answers, we might apply ourselves to the serious work at hand.
>
> As Michael Gurstein has encouraged.
>
> David
>
> On Oct 1, 2012, at 10:36 AM, michael gurstein wrote:
>
> > Very good question Norbert and I well accept your cases and I
> > don't have any easy answers (but nor I think, does anyone else…
> >
> > Two things though, I know for sure that governance by self-
> > appointed, essentially unaccountable "stakeholders" is not
> > "democracy" at least by any definition I understand, and also that
> > we probably need to have some sort of collective rethinking/
> > redefinition of what we do mean by democracy in an age of
> > instantaneous and essentially free and massified communication and
> > information, the capacity for borderless (and defenseless) action
> > at a distance, mass literacy, and other manifestations of the
> > technologically transformed world that has emerged and would be
> > completely unrecognizable to the conceptualizers of representative
> > democracy in the 18th and 19th century.
> >
> > Issues of scale and unit (macro and micro the neighborhood, the
> > tribe, the province, the nation, the world);  issues of
> > accountability and transparency (increased opportunity for and
> > increased means to avoid), issues of efficacy (personal,
> > collective, associative) and a wide range of others need to be
> > accounted for and I think "we" as a species have only just started
> > that rethinking process…
> >
> > In the meantime abandoning something that we do know and
> > understand and have some experience with for leaps in the dark
> > seems to me to be a not very useful place to begin.
> >
> > M
> >
> > From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> > [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org ] On Behalf Of
> > Norbert Klein Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 10:08 AM
> > To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> > Subject: Re: [governance] Principles
> >
> > Interesting and important.
> > My question relates to this part: “the degree to which such
> > processes could at all be called ``democratic`` at least within
> > any definition of the term that I (or I would expect most of us)
> > would understand.”
> > There is an assumption what “most of us” would expect – but it is
> > not defined.
> > So I assume – maybe wrongly? - it is a kind of “one man (or woman)
> > one vote”? If not – so what? Please elaborate.
> > This surely was a good principle – it was used a lot arguing, for
> > example, against the South African Apartheid regime which rejected
> > it. Was it a triumph of democracy when the National Socialists
> > (the “Nationalsozialisten” = Nazi”), with the help of the German
> > National People's Party, were victorious in elections in March 1933
> > – starting a dark age of German history, tremendous damage on many
> > others too.
> > “Demo-cracy” hints at a concept that the will of the people
> > governs. But how?
> > The Cambodian People's Party has gained more and more seats in the
> > National Assembly through every vote since 1993 – but the UN
> > Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in Cambodia has
> > raised serious concerns because the electoral system – especially
> > the National Election Committee – is controlled by government
> > appointees, NOT representing the plurality of parties in the
> > National Assembly. And thousands and thousands of people
> > forcefully evicted from their traditional areas of residency have
> > not only lost their homes, but they are no longer on residency
> > related voter lists. Is the one-country-one-vote - on the UN level
> > – more democratic, where 14 million Cambodia have the same
> > vote-weight as 235+ million of Indonesia?
> > The question is not only: What is democratic? – In the actual
> > situations where we live it means also: How do we move towards the
> > good goal that “the people's” benefits (not the majority of the
> > people who voted in the Nazis in Germany, I add, without offering
> > at the same time a rationale for my personal opinion here) are
> > central? It is on this background that I well understand the short
> > statement (which is open to misunderstandings) about Internet
> > Governance: “Multistakeholderism *IS* the highest form of
> > participatory democracy” If it is not – so what else, and how?
> >
> > Norbert Klein
> > Phnom Penh/Cambodia
> >
> > =
> >
> > On 10/1/2012 7:59 PM, michael gurstein wrote:
> > Wolfgang and all,
> >
> > I`ve just had an opportunity to observe at somewhat close hand a
> > series of
> > multi-stakeholder processes at work (in Agriculture planning) in
> > several
> > African countries... I was quite impressed for a number of reasons
> > which I
> > won`t go into here (I`m currently working on the report...
> >
> > However, one conclusion that I would draw is that while
> > `multi-stakeholderism` is in at least some instances very
> > effective as an
> > inclusive, let`s say `participative` management tool it is very
> > far from
> > what I, or I think almost anyone would call ``democratic``
> > (unless, as in
> > some I think, quite perverse instances, one chooses to conflate
> > the notions
> > of management with democracy).
> >
> > The problem is that while multi-stakeholderism is inclusive of
> > interests it
> > is not necessarily accountable or representative of or for those
> > interests.
> > So for example, while a national or reagional farmers` union might
> > be a very
> > effective stakeholder representative of the interests of small
> > holder farmers the precise process of accountability and
> > representivity is in many
> > instances a very open question subject to for example, the
> > personailities of
> > individuals, literacy, access to media and information, political
> > interference etc. etc. The latter caveats do not preclude the former
> > affirmations but they do strongly bracket the degree to which such
> > processes
> > could at all be called ``democratic`` at least within any
> > definition of the
> > term that I (or I would expect most of us) would understand.
> >
> > I think your broad objective of pursuing a framework for multi-
> > stakeholder
> > governance of the Internet is a worthwhile one and one I hope to
> > contribute
> > to in Baku, however, I think a useful outcome of that initiative
> > would still
> > leave open the question of overall democractic governance and
> > accountability
> > of the Internet.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Mike

-------------- next part --------------
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
To be removed from the list, visit:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing

For all other list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/

Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t