[governance] Google's Fight the ITU/WCIT website
Suresh Ramasubramanian
suresh at hserus.net
Thu Nov 22 11:10:23 EST 2012
OK. In the interest of amity, I withdraw the entire paragraph from my previous email that cites the essay in question. While maintaining that I have not in fact used the term you object to, to describe anybody at all, and it has never been my intent to do so.
The rest of what I stated - that propaganda as a tactic is not the ideal course of action for civil society in a multistakeholder context - will have to stand.
--srs (iPad)
On 22-Nov-2012, at 21:32, "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro" <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Suresh,
>
> Please refrain from using words like "Nazi" on this list. Dialogue on any of the Internet Governance issues and topics. This discussion has escalated off the relevant issues. Any more warnings and I will remove you from the list. Let this serve as a reminder to all to keep the discussions on Internet Governance issues.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> (IGC Co-Coordinator)
>
> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 4:56 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <suresh at hserus.net> wrote:
>> Not really. I am not calling anybody at all a nazi here.
>>
>> Did you read that essay, Michael?
>>
>> --srs (iPad)
>>
>> On 22-Nov-2012, at 21:06, "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ah, we`ve done a Godwin… I knew it was coming…
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Suresh Ramasubramanian
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 7:01 AM
>>> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Riaz K Tayob
>>> Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Google's Fight the ITU/WCIT website
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Riaz, I like to think of myself as somewhere between the two camps and not attached to either.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I see (and have earlier commented on) multiple flaws in ICANN's processes and governance, and I don't have blind faith in either of those.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You don't see me reacting as viscerally to, say, Gurstein (or even to Karl Auerbach, with whom I've had my share of differences of opinion before on politechbot and elsewhere)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is, however, a rather clear line between dialectics and propaganda. And I am afraid I tend to react very negatively when I see propaganda. Especially where it is of the sort that seeks to demonise the opposition just to score a point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Without in any way comparing anybody on or off this list to a nazi, I would still like to leave this chapter from Mein Kampf here as probably the most succinct essay on the effective use of propaganda that I have ever read. And when I see these principles freely applied anywhere (in industry lobbying, in civil society 'advocacy (!)' ..) it leaves an extremely bad taste in my mouth.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch06.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --srs (iPad)
>>>
>>>
>>> On 22-Nov-2012, at 20:11, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> having been the "victim" of too robust engagement on this list, I feel incumbent to respond...
>>>
>>> There is a difference between posting a third party article (that might be provocative etc) and entering the fray. This is a crucial difference that needs to be borne in mind.
>>>
>>> I will say it straight out (so there is no doubt), this list has a predilection for ICANN (on CIR) and market/corporate views as opposed to public interest views (of course any minority like to feel it is special ;) and I am so glad that more even handedness is being shown by moderators like Sala...
>>>
>>> I am not sure even Hegel would have agreed that civil society was civil (it was aspirational), but he encouraged the dialectical (i.e. reasoned argument) as the best way forward in civil society... So for me the only worry is whether the arguments made can be sustained by reason... on this list, in times not so long ago, reason was typically a hostage in the arguments against Auerbach, Parminder, Gurstein type arguments...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2012/11/22 02:54 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
>>>
>>> Right. Truthout screeds, random allegations, accusations about "arrogance", half truth laden polemic .. to pick a few.
>>>
>>> And those are not deemed to be personal attacks because they are targeted at a corporation rather than individual?
>>>
>>> Fun days. There was a time when civil society discourse was actually civil. But any incivility I have committed is in response to behavior that does not and should not characterize civil society.
>>>
>>> So sala, thank you for your warning.
>>>
>>> --srs (htc one x)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Reply message -----
>>> From: "Guru गुरु" <Guru at ITforChange.net>
>>> To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>>> Subject: [governance] Google's Fight the ITU/WCIT website
>>> Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 10:51 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://truth-out.org/news/item/12676-how-google-is-helping-the-gas-lobby-support-fracking
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday 21 November 2012 06:25 PM, Louis Pouzin (well) wrote:
>>> > Hi all,
>>> >
>>> > Google is now champion for arrogance and disinformation. They believe
>>> > they reached a State statute whereby they can dictate other States
>>> > what they have to do. Actually this not so different from the US gov
>>> > attitude.
>>> >
>>> > Google's dominance of the advertising market is in no way a guarantee
>>> > of quality and neutrality. They just leverage their dominance for
>>> > promoting their own business. And they conflate their particular
>>> > interests with grand ideologies as free information for all.
>>> >
>>> > Let's assume that drugs are free for all. Then the web would be
>>> > swamped with ads for drugs, seminars praising benefits of using drugs,
>>> > training sessions for acquiring drug consumption art, testimonies from
>>> > drug users telling how it changed their life for the good, mass
>>> > campaign vilifying institutions or governments requesting drug
>>> > control, and so on. Just because the drug maffia has enough resources
>>> > for controlling a free market. And the saying is "the market is right".
>>> >
>>> > As expected, the simple association of information and drug will
>>> > immediately raise fury. It's just taboo. Like associating Google
>>> > interests with freedom of information.
>>> >
>>> > There was a time when the US gov would resist and break excessive and
>>> > abusive dominance in certain market segments, like oil, bank, telecom.
>>> > Now it's the opposite. Excessive market dominance is good for US world
>>> > dominance, as long as the dominant firms are based in the US. Then
>>> > where are check and balance mechanisms ?
>>> >
>>> > Let's not be fooled by Google stylish propaganda. The real issues in
>>> > WCIT 2012 have nothing to do with internet censorship, and Google
>>> > knows it too well. The issues are finding a more equitable balance
>>> > between stakeholders interests and profits.
>>> >
>>> > Parminder's observations are entirely relevant. The most dangerous
>>> > threats to information freedom are US lead secretly negotiated
>>> > treaties by multi-national lobbies, SOPA, ACTA, etc. More are coming,
>>> > still secret, basically a rehash of those that failed, TPP, CleanIT,
>>> > .. watch out.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers, Louis
>>> > - - -
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 9:24 AM, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net
>>> > <mailto:parminder at itforchange.net>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Wednesday 21 November 2012 01:19 PM, parminder wrote:
>>> >> snip
>>> >
>>> >> Dear Google; Yes, the world indeed needs an open Internet, for
>>> >> which reason it is rather awful to note that you, meaning, Google;
>>> >>
>>> >> 1) Sold the entire net neutrality campaign down the drain in the
>>> >> US, by first assuming its leadership and then entering into a
>>> >> self-serving agreement with Verizon, whereby the main means of
>>> >> accessing the Internet in the future - mobiles - are exempted
>>> >> from net neutrality provisions.
>>> >>
>>> >> 2) Have recently entered into exclusive arrangements with telecos
>>> >> to provide Gmail, Google + and Google Search for free in some
>>> >> developing countries (Philippines) , and as a special low cost
>>> >> package exclusively of a few Internet services (and not the full,
>>> >> public Internet) in others (India), which makes a mockery of an
>>> >> open and net neutral Internet.
>>> >
>>> > BTW, is it a mere coincidence these new mobile based
>>> > non-net-neutral services seem to have something to do with the
>>> > betraying compromise that Google made that is mentioned in point 1
>>> > above?
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> 3) Tweak your search results, which is increasingly the main way
>>> >> of accessing locations on the Internet, in non-transparent ways,
>>> >> with increasing evidence that this is done in a manner that
>>> >> merely serves your own commercial interests and goes against
>>> >> consumer/ public interest, and for which reasons Google is
>>> >> currently subject to regulatory investigations in the US and EU.
>>> >>
>>> >> ( There are hundreds of other outrages, big and small, including
>>> >> the fact that today I suddenly see my default browser getting
>>> >> set for "Chrome' when I prefer and have always used Mozilla
>>> >> Firefox and never asked for the change of default.)
>>> >>
>>> >> I cannot see anything other than effective regulation of the
>>> >> Internet to be able to check such excesses by Internet companies
>>> >> that are deeply compromising the openness of the Internet
>>> >> (sticking here to only to the subject of openness of the
>>> >> Internet, used in above appeal by Google).
>>> >>
>>> >> So, lets be honest, it is not about people versus ITU, not even,
>>> >> Google versus ITU, or even Google versus content regulation; it
>>> >> is Google versus any regulation of the Internet space so that
>>> >> Google, and similarly positioned dominant players, can have a
>>> >> free run over the economic, social and political resources of the
>>> >> world.
>>> >>
>>> >> It is very important to wage the needed struggles to keep
>>> >> In
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>> governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>
>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>> http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>> http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>
>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>> governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>>> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>>
>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>>> http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>>> http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>>
>>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>> governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>> http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>> http://www.igcaucus.org/
>>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>
>
> --
> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
> P.O. Box 17862
> Suva
> Fiji
>
> Twitter: @SalanietaT
> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
> Tel: +679 3544828
> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
> http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
> http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.igcaucus.org/pipermail/governance/attachments/20121122/77cfe05f/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
governance at lists.igcaucus.org
To be removed from the list, visit:
http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
For all other list information and functions, see:
http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
http://www.igcaucus.org/
Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
More information about the Governance
mailing list