[governance] FW: [MobileActive Discuss] Improving User Rights

Sat Nov 17 19:16:32 EST 2012

Suresh, it is hardly a "free" service… They are making a very considerable amount of money off the use of my (and everyone's) information and attention for advertising and other revenue based services--they aren't doing what they do as a public service.  

I allow them to use me and my information in this way in exchange for the use of their software… I think it is not an unfair transaction as I continue with it however, I do expect some, at least minimal degree of support from their side of the transaction and again as I indicated in my blog, NO help desk was effectively available. 

Also, their increasingly dominant position in this crucial functional area almost certainly places additional service responsibilities on their shoulder.  It is perhaps too unfortunate that they have been so successful, but that's the way it is… If they want to be the cateloguer and indexer of all of human knowledge then they need to take the responsibilities that go with that position!

M

From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh at hserus.net] 
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 3:42 PM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; michael gurstein
Cc: Benedek, Wolfgang; <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: [MobileActive Discuss] Improving User Rights

For a free service?  Maybe not, you get a level of service commensurate with what you pay for.  

I do come from about 14,,15 years working closely with ISP tech support desks, and I would be the last to claim that the process work perfectly every time.

If, as i gathered from skimming through your blog before my earlier reply, were cut off that is still a matter for one of several help desks that exist and not all of them are manned by low paid kids with little actual authority.

--srs (iPad)

On 18-Nov-2012, at 0:55, "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

Suresh,

I don't know if you read my sorry tale of woe (mirrored I should say by hundreds of others I have come across once I started looking… The point was that there were no accessible "customer service desks" nor any recourse in terms of finding one (try finding a telephone number for Google or a customer oriented email address that will respond within a reasonable period of time -- and I mean days or even weeks).

At least in this instance there was no public (or even customer facing) transparency or accountability and no clear national path for accountability that I could call on--I as a Canadian, accessing a US based company from where I was, temporarily at the time of the incident, Bangladesh.

And, as Wolfgang is pointing to, the issue at least for email (and probably other Internet based services) rather goes beyond the jurisdiction of a "help desk".  Supposing that I had been cut off from my account "for cause", or because of a mistaken identity, or a glitch somewhere in the various electronic pathways that my email traverses--would a "help desk" be sufficient (have the authority) to resolve the problem.  

And of course, given the global ubiquity in the use of gmail (which has to a considerable degree become the global standard--to Google's considerable profit it should be pointed out) and as one's email address (as in my instance) has become for many the cornerstone of one's electronic identity, the significance of this kind of lock out could be extremely damaging and even in some instances dangerous.

The absence of any means for recourse--i.e. accountability or transparency on the part of the service supplier is to my mind something that is clearly not "in the public interest". And if that is the case, what or where is the framework for appropriate intervention and who (and how) has the standing to effect such an intervention. 

Notably of course, given the nature of the Google/eBay/Facebook/PayPal etc.etc. transnational beast such a framework (and the actors with standing sufficient for an appropriate intervention) must themselves necessarily be global.

M

From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh at hserus.net] 
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 10:45 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Benedek, Wolfgang (wolfgang.benedek at uni-graz.at)
Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; michael gurstein
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: [MobileActive Discuss] Improving User Rights

You do have customer service desks in free email providers, and escalation paths, just as you do with mobile phone and Internet service.  Customer service, to cut costs, tends to be staffed with lower paid, lower skilled people at times, and this might unintentionally lead to service getting shut off or otherwise restricted.  But that is by no means restricted to the online world.

Credit cards, public utility companies, supermarkets etc .. Anywhere that caters to a large number of people.

How would you draw a distinction between those?

--srs (iPad)

On 18-Nov-2012, at 0:00, "Benedek, Wolfgang (wolfgang.benedek at uni-graz.at)" <wolfgang.benedek at uni-graz.at> wrote:

Dear Michael,

this story is a good example for what is needed in terms of operationalizing rights of internet users, which is the topic of a currently ongoing  Council of Europe Committee, which works on a "compendium" of such rights for internet user rights. 

A minimum of basic services may be more than a contractual consumer rights issue, when the user practically has no alternative.

If You have a problem with Your mobile phone or internet service provider there is a hotline, maybe You have to pay something, but You get a service. 

Companies like Google present themselves as user-oriented, but there is a need to identify and provide minimum services in order not to be cut off from Your freedom of expression.

Suggestions from this list are welcome!

Best regards

Wolfgang Benedek

Institute for International Law and International Relations

University of Graz

Universitätsstraße 15, A4

A-8010 Graz

Tel.: +43/316/380/3411

Fax: +43/316/380/9455

Von: michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
Antworten an: "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
Datum: Samstag, 17. November 2012 18:01
An: 'Suresh Ramasubramanian' <suresh at hserus.net>
Cc: "governance at lists.igcaucus.org" <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
Betreff: RE: [governance] FW: [MobileActive Discuss] Why Cell Phones Went Dead After Hurricane Sandy- Bloomberg

To bring this back to the WCIT/ITU context, the issue isn't direct nastiness (illegality) via spam or whatever, there are in most instances enforceable national laws to cover this and the self-regulation is for the most part a way of keeping national regulators off the corporate backs.

The issue is precisely in the area of standards and policies for those corporations and countries with global and transborder reach where national policies/regulations are essentially unenforceable but where because of industry or other dominance (including what is in practice standards "capture") there is no effective way of pursuing a public interest. My own example which I keep trundling out is a fairly direct indicator of some of the issues from a consumer protection perspective and I think a reasonable example where some sort of means for enforcing a global public interest including through transparency and accountabliity is required. 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/gmail-hell-day-4-dealing-with-the-borg-or-being-evil-without-really-thinking-about-it/

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/gmail-hell2-an-epilogue-they-are-the-borg-and-they-are-too-big-to-be-allowed-to-fail/

M

From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh at hserus.net] 
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 8:37 AM
To: michael gurstein
Cc: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: [MobileActive Discuss] Why Cell Phones Went Dead After Hurricane Sandy- Bloomberg

As far as I have seen in industry associations like maawg (www.maawg.org) there is a substantial push towards best practice in areas such as ethical email marketing that is respectful of user privacy, besides the various other practices evolved on security, malware etc.   

And that best practice is, sort of, enforced in that marketers who don't adhere to that code of practice don't get to become members, or on previous occasions, have had ther membership revoked.

So, this does occur and is not unknown in an industry context.

It would be equally naive to only bank on industry goodwill, which is why a regulatory system, and a transparent complaints / redressal process are essential,   That, and informed civil society that doesn't see industry as the enemy.

Note: I have had my share of arguments with various civil society people and groups on that account, simply because making points without demonising the groups they make those points against seems to be a dying art.   Like Susan Crawford describing DPI with terms like "inside job", or the eff comparing spam filtering to blackmail and extortion.  http://www.mail-archive.com/silklist@lists.hserus.net/msg20400.html for several such examples.

--srs (iPad)

On 17-Nov-2012, at 21:45, "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

Of course, what you are saying is precisely what is being said in the
current deregulation push in US telecoms i.e. that corporate actors can be
trusted (in a deregulated context) to act in accordance with the public
interest (with the consequences that Susan Crawford is pointing to in her
piece noted bleow...

You might note in passing that CS in the context of the BestBits discussion
indicated in the context of the anticipated revision of the ITR's and a
requirement that  " the framing of public policy is the pursuit of the
public interest" and that this statement was signed onto by numerous CS (and
other actors). http://bestbits.igf-online.net/statement/

M

-----Original Message-----
From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh at hserus.net] 
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 7:41 AM
To: michael gurstein
Cc: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: [MobileActive Discuss] Why Cell Phones Went
Dead After Hurricane Sandy- Bloomberg

There is no such thing as a global public interest, it is too utopian a
concept.

A shared consensus on best practices and acceptable standards of behaviour /
codes of conduct are about the closest you will have in real life and
outside wcit, igf etc slide decks.

--srs (iPad)

On 17-Nov-2012, at 20:48, "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

Why?

The discussions around the WCIT/are overrun with precisely those kinds 

of generalizations.

But it is a serious question, if we believe that there is a global 

public interest (in the Internet) who do we trust to best represent 

that public interest (IBM, Google, the USG?) and within what (global) 

framework will that representation best take place (the market place, 

the US State Department, Google, the IGF?). (Unfortunately, I don't 

see CS as sufficiently strong or as sufficiently independent to even 

mention it in this context.)

M

-----Original Message-----

From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh at hserus.net]

Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:39 AM

To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; michael gurstein

Subject: Re: [governance] FW: [MobileActive Discuss] Why Cell Phones 

Went Dead After Hurricane Sandy- Bloomberg

michael gurstein [17/11/12 06:00 -0800]:

Who can we rely on to act in support of the (global) public 

interest--IBM, Google, Facebook, AT&T, the USG, "the market"..?

"civil society"?  also note "act effectively"

Generalizing would be a grave mistake here.

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