IETF WAS Re: [governance] Enhanced Cooperation (was Re: reality check on economics)

Wed May 30 08:48:27 EDT 2012

Just to be clear, my original back and forth with McTim was not around ICT4D
or the general state of the IT industry or CS in Africa but had to do with
ensuring that there were voices from LDC's who would have the opportunity to
participate in discussions around CIR's -- the quote from McTim which I
responded to was "nation states should have zero "control" over CIRs", rich
or poor!"

I would be delighted to have a discussion (I assume in a different venue) on
the role of governments in ICT4D initiatives where I generally agree with
Annriette in her analysis of the relative effectiveness of governments
versus CS but am unclear as to what longer term strategies she might derive
from this.

M

-----Original Message-----
From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
[mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Anriette
Esterhuysen
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 1:39 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Subject: Re: IETF WAS Re: [governance] Enhanced Cooperation (was Re: reality
check on economics)

Hi all.. just jumping in on this to respond to McTim and Mike's discussion
about ICT business and CS in Africa.

I completely agree with McTim on Africa (where I am from and live) being
full of ICT entrepreneurs and innovators; technical people and business
people who are not into just getting rich, but developing enterprises that
will benefit their communities. Don't usually don't call themselves 'social
entrepreneurs'. They are just responding to local needs and creating
opportunities.

These people have been much more effective in supporting ICT's for
development than most governmental initiatives.

This does not mean I believe we should not pressure/encourage governments to
commit and implement... we should.. but often (not
always) governments provide the worst of both worlds:

- poorly planned ICT related social and eco. programmes
- restrictive regulation that limits bottom up innovation and
community-based initiatives.

This sector is not without its own challenges.. e.g. in South Africa most
young tech innovators are white. But as a group they constitute a really
positive force.. e.g. when it comes to open source and free software.

FOSSFA (well represented on this list) is itself an amazing force and pool
of African techie expertise.

Our challenge is getting these people involved in the IGF, ICANN, IETF etc.
When I talk to them about this their eyes usually glaze over. They are so
used to policy/governments not delivering for them that they don't see the
point. They do however get involved in national internet/ICT policy
discussions quite often.

And the techies also lack the resources to travel to meetings. Yes, IETF
does not need you to be physically present.. but face-to-face networking at
universities, conferences and so on is still in many cases how 'first
contact' takes place.

As for CS. Agree with McTim there too. Lots of local initiatives. But they
don't really see the point of/or have the resources to get into global
networks.

Or, they are very issue specific.. e.g. working on telecentres, libraries,
public access. info literacy and so on.

I also find that when such people do make it to the global space the
conversations are just not that relevant to them, and the talkers are not
that interested in what the people from developing countries have to say.
Experiences and issues are just so different - or are expressed in such
different ways.

Never underestimate the effect of the world being skewed. Usually it is
those of us from developing countries who have to make the effort to get
into, and stay in, global spaces. We have to do the longer distance
traveling (usually). We have to apply for the visas, and deal with horrid
exchange rates that make affording being in Europe/NA difficult. And, to
apply for a visa you need an invitation from some entity that will be
willing to swear you are not an economic migrant.

I know that there are special opportunities for supporting and including ICT
people from developing countries. This often favours people like myself who
get invited as a women, from a developing country to fill quotas on panels.
But the barriers to participate are still far greater for people from the
developing world.

If IG institutions really want to change this I think they should do what
some international NGOs have done, like Civicus, APC, and
ActionAid: move your internatioinal base to a developing country, or if that
is not practical, have most of your international meetings in developing
countries.

Anriette

Anriette

On 29/05/2012 19:31, McTim wrote:
> On 5/29/12, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>> McTim,
>>
>> The problem is that for many "poor countries (LDC's)" there is no 
>> "private sector" in this area and for the most part no civil society 
>> with the expertise or the financial resources to participate in these 
>> discussions or to acquire the requisite expertise.
> 
> 
> that MAY be the case.  However, that has NOT been my experience living 
> in Africa for the last 7 years.  There are both biz folks AND CS 
> actively involved in both real and meta-IG activities locally, 
> regionally and globally.  this was re-affirmed earlier this month in 
> the Gambia, where I met dozens of young Africans from all over the 
> continent eager to be involved in ISOC/ICANN/RIR/IGF et. al. 
> activities!
> 
> 
> So in the absence of governmental
>> involvement there will be no involvement from those parts of the 
>> world at all.
> 
> see above.
> 
>>
>> That might serve the interests of some quite well, but not 
>> surprisingly the folks in those countries without representation are 
>> beginning to feel somewhat aggrieved.
> 
> Representation is not how IG is done.
> 
> Governments get to say (usually) how a country code telephone 
> numbering system is managed.  They don't get the same control over how 
> CIR's are managed.  They may WANT it, but that is not reality based 
> thinking.
> 
> 
>>
>> The desire to keep governments out of technical areas is very likely 
>> a commendable one, but in that instance it behooves the supporters of 
>> that position to find some other means to ensure that those currently 
>> without a voice in those discussions are provided with a means to 
>> have such a participation.
> 
> I don't want to keep governements out of technical areas, not at all!!
> 
> Last week we had a meeting of the African governmanetal Working Group 
> at the African Internet Summit.  It is a method of bringing them IN to 
> the tech/policy side of things!
>>
>> The status quo always favours the incumbent.
> 
> 
> true....I would suggest that your map of the status quo is out of 
> date.
> 

-- 
------------------------------------------------------
anriette esterhuysen anriette at apc.org
executive director, association for progressive communications www.apc.org
po box 29755, melville 2109 south africa tel/fax +27 11 726 1692

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