[governance] Yes! Hands off the Internet!

Suresh Ramasubramanian suresh at hserus.net
Sat Dec 29 19:16:44 EST 2012 

Industry and civil society (specific sections of civil society at any rate) cooperation in various aspects of igov and cybersecurity is not a new phenomenon.  So, the deep consensus is hardly surprising.  On the other hand, the people who have, so far, expressed opposition to this consensus, haven't been those that I see engaged with industry stakeholders so far.

--srs (iPad)

On 30-Dec-2012, at 5:01, "Michael Leibrandt" <michael_leibrandt at web.de> wrote:

>> So you have a lot of industry and civil society showing a surprising amount of consensus so far
> 
> Yes, and from time to time this somewhat unique setting deserves some reflection. On other global issues like climate change, where the so-called "hands-off" people are basically using the same argumets ("through innovation, free unregulated markets do the best job"), a significant part of cs has, well, at least some doubts if this is actually the right way to move forward. And the same govenments who are raving about cs support in the IG arena, show significant more distance when it comes to issues where cs statements are not in line with business interests...
> 
> Michael, Berlin
> 
> On 29-Dec-2012, at 14:31, "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> No, I don't "expect china, Russia or the Arab states to govern in the global
>> public interest" but nor do I expect that the US government, Google or
>> Facebook will operate so as to promote the global public interest either.
>> 
>> As I was just saying,
>>> The issue of course, for those with a sincere interest in the
>>> well-being of the Internet, is not "hands off the Internet" but rather
>>> to develop means for ensuring that the Internet is "managed" in the
>>> global public interest by all parties.
>> 
>> This I think is an area where civil society and the technical community
>> should be demonstrating leadership (and hopefully joined by sympathetic
>> governments and potentially elements of the private sector)  in defining,
>> articulating and pursuing.
>> 
>> M
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh at hserus.net]
>> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 12:35 AM
>> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; michael gurstein
>> Cc: Michael Leibrandt; <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>> Subject: Re: [governance] Yes! Hands off the Internet!
>> 
>> Do you expect china, Russia or the Arab states to govern in the global
>> public interest?
>> 
>> --srs (iPad)
>> 
>> On 29-Dec-2012, at 13:57, "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Michael,
>>> 
>>> My point in including Google in the "rogues gallery" is simply to
>>> highlight the central role that Google was playing in the recent
>>> Internet Freedom/Hands off the Internet campaign... My point conerning
>>> Facebook is linked to the fact that FB because of its very size and
>>> scope (market
>>> dominance?) is taking on (for some at least) a quasi official status
>>> (the official election results in Ghana were first announced on FB for
>> example).
>>> 
>>> But overall my intention was to point to the hypocrisy of the
>>> overwhelming campaigns from certain governments and certain elements
>>> of the private sector, civil society, and the technical community
>>> concerning "hands off the Internet" when it comes from certain
>>> directions (such as the governments of China or Russia) while the same
>>> folks choose to ignore (or at least draw no connection with) quite
>>> blatant and parallel intrusions rather closer to home.
>>> 
>>> The issue of course, for those with a sincere interest in the
>>> well-being of the Internet, is not "hands off the Internet" but rather
>>> to develop means for ensuring that the Internet is "managed" in the
>>> global public interest by all parties.
>>> 
>>> M
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Leibrandt [mailto:michael_leibrandt at web.de]
>>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 11:46 PM
>>> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; michael gurstein
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Yes! Hands off the Internet!
>>> 
>>> Hi Michael,
>>> 
>>> If your local car dealer rejects to sell you a car, or if the local
>>> night club doesn't let you in, there isn't much you can do about it.
>>> Private providers of goods and services are generally free to decide whom
>> to serve.
>>> At least until it becomes an act of discrimination, e. g. against
>>> blacks, gays or jews. Or if the provider has a monopoly (clearly not
>>> the case for Google or Facebook), or has such a strong market position
>>> that it can actually control the market.
>>> 
>>> So to compare government action and company behaviour is quite difficult.
>>> But there is already enough hypocrisy to think about with regard to
>>> stakeholders of the same category ;-)
>>> 
>>> Michael, Berlin
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
>>> To: <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 12:17 AM
>>> Subject: [governance] Yes! Hands off the Internet!
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> (from today's various Internet news feeds....
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, for sure, these hands off the Internet.
>>> http://www.worldcrunch.com/culture-society/china-tightens-internet-con
>>> trol-b
>>> ans-anonymity-allows-government-to-delete-posts/censorship-online-twit
>>> ter-we
>>>> ibo-xinhua-/c3s10510/#.UN2qcI7896I
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/cryyx5l
>>>> 
>>>> And these
>>> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121228/07170621508/fisa-is-renewed-
>>> with-a
>>>> ll-its-problems-still-intact.shtml
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/d7trx4j
>>>> 
>>>> And these
>>> http://torrentfreak.com/google-removed-50-million-pirate-search-result
>>> s-this
>>>> -year-121228/
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/d7trx4j
>>>> 
>>>> And these
>>> http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/12/washingtons-blog-facebook-censo
>>> rs-pro
>>>> minent-political-critics.html
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/cn72l3v
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe a New Year's Resolution: Enough with the hypocrisy!
>>>> 
>>>> M
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------
>>> ----
>>> 
>>> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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