[governance] Re: Telecom TV on Google and Taxes

Suresh Ramasubramanian suresh at hserus.net
Sun Dec 16 09:21:49 EST 2012


At least, a matter for a different part of the UN that you would not particularly consider cyber ..
http://www.un.org/esa/ffd/tax/manual.htm

And OECD does have a working set of best practices, despite some people on this list detesting it as a rich countries club, dubbing their policy recommendations "forcing regulation" on other countries.  http://www.oecd.org/tax/fightingtaxevasion.htm

--srs (iPad)

On 16-Dec-2012, at 19:42, Jacqueline Morris <jam at jacquelinemorris.com> wrote:

> Not defending Google per se, but...
> 
> Leaving out the cyberspace part for the moment, ALL companies seek to
> reduce costs, including taxes.   Mattel, DuPont, GE, Pfizer  all pay
> little or no tax. Some even get tax rebates based on billion dollar
> profits. (Yes, that's madness, for a company to have a -57% effective
> tax rate, on profits in the billions, but it's the law.)
> Google legally routed profits and reduced their tax bill.  It's the
> fault of the UK tax regime that allowed them to shift profit overseas
> and not pay taxes on it.
> 
> Yes, this is a problem for countries, but it is not incumbent on a
> company to fix the tax regime of a country in which it operates.  The
> Govts need to make sure that the routing of profits that companies
> currently do legally, to reduce the tax that is owed, is no longer
> legal. Taxation regimes around the world are complex, full of
> loopholes put in to support "friends of govt" which are then are used
> by others, and oops! we've got no tax revenue coming in, and the
> companies that filled out their tax bill according to the law are
> suddenly evil.  CS can and should  work on the governments to close
> these loopholes that they create for their friends and for the
> lobbyists. But is this totally IG? I don't think so.
> 
> I understand where Parminder is coming from, with the idea that small
> and developing countries do not have the size/power to say - pay our
> taxes or else. But this isn't IG, in my opinion.
> 
> The IG part is figuring out what portion of value and business, and
> hence tax revenue, goes where in a mutli
> -national/multi-jurisdictional cyber transaction. And to that, the IGC
> can, and should, look at this issue, look at the harmonisation efforts
> going on in Europe and elsewhere, and suggest workable mechanisms for
> collection and  fair/equitable division of revenues from these
> transactions.
> 
> 
> Jacqueline A. Morris
> Technology should be like oxygen: Ubiquitous, Necessary, Invisible and
> Free. (after Chris Lehmann )
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Parm, unfortunately (again) I am unable to follow up closely on the thread. But one point intrigues me: taxes are determined by governments within their geopolitical boundaries. Why don't governments charge appropriate taxes (if any) on services such as Google's?
>> 
>> The point is: I do not think a corporation of that size just evades taxes and keeps an eye for what may happen. The certainly know about tax legislation in the countries they have operations.
>> 
>> What is the proper way to define a policy on this for us?
>> 
>> frt rgds
>> 
>> --c.a.
>> 
>> 
>> On 12/13/2012 02:33 AM, parminder wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Rather shameful that google paid 3 percent tax on its overseas profit!!
>>> It surely leaves it with a lot of money to spend in lobbying and
>>> advocacy efforts to keep global markets free for its unlettered
>>> operations... Like organising campaigns against ITU, German legislature,
>>> and so on.
>>> 
>>> Would IGC write an open letter to Google that its tax evasion policy is
>>> anti people, and it should pays its taxes where it makes its profit. (Or
>>> is it that the IG civil society does not go into such re-distributional
>>> questions )   It is not rhetorical but a real question to the list, and
>>> its coordinator.
>>> 
>>>  parminder
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wednesday 12 December 2012 09:37 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> More on Bloomberg:
>>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-10/google-revenues-sheltered-in-no-tax-bermuda-soar-to-10-billion.html
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 4:48 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
>>>> <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>    Somehow it feels that there is a targeted media campaign out
>>>>    against the likes of Google and other mncs - the timing of the
>>>>    release is almost impeccable with the WCIT.
>>>> 
>>>>    Source:
>>>>    http://www.telecomtv.com/comspace_newsDetail.aspx?n=49763&id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>      Google “can make money without doing evil” (as it evades $2bn in
>>>>      taxes)
>>>> 
>>>>    Posted By TelecomTV One
>>>>    <http://www.telecomtv.com/go/?ct=9&id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10> ,
>>>> 
>>>>    12 December 2012 | 1 Comments
>>>>    <http://www.telecomtv.com/comspace_newsDetail.aspx?n=49763&id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10#comments> |
>>>>    [0 people rated this an average of 3/5] [0 people rated this an
>>>>    average of 3/5] [0 people rated this an average of 3/5] (0)
>>>>    Tags: /Google
>>>>    <http://www.telecomtv.com/results.aspx?tag=122&tagname=Google>/
>>>>    /corporate
>>>>    <http://www.telecomtv.com/results.aspx?tag=6972&tagname=corporate>/ /tax
>>>>    <http://www.telecomtv.com/results.aspx?tag=434&tagname=tax>/
>>>>    /Finance
>>>>    <http://www.telecomtv.com/results.aspx?tag=365&tagname=Finance>/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>    As the net closes around the multinationals that avoid paying
>>>>    corporation taxes, Google is accused of saving $2bn by routing
>>>>    income through a “Double Irish Dutch Sandwich”, paying tax of just
>>>>    3.2 per cent on its overseas profits. Guy Daniels reports.
>>>> 
>>>>    Three questions. One; where do you stand on the subject of tax
>>>>    avoidance? We at TelecomTV believe that individuals and
>>>>    corporations have a duty to pay their fair share of tax. By fair,
>>>>    we mean whatever respective governments rule to be the legal
>>>>    requirement (after all, in most countries, we voted the
>>>>    politicians in to office). By all means try and mitigate the
>>>>    amount of tax you have to pay, using whatever accepted mechanisms
>>>>    are available. But avoidance? That just means somebody else (with
>>>>    far less access to expensive and clever advisors) has to
>>>>    contribute to your share as well.
>>>> 
>>>>    Second question: how do you define evil? The Oxford English
>>>>    Dictionary defines evil as “profoundly immoral and wicked” or
>>>>    “something which is harmful or undesirable”. In my book, that
>>>>    means tax avoidance is evil, simple as that.
>>>> 
>>>>    Third and final question: Is Google evil? If you believe that
>>>>    avoiding tax is wrong (especially through aggressive and
>>>>    mind-boggling complicated avoidance schemes) and if you believe
>>>>    that depriving society of tax revenues is wrong (and so reducing
>>>>    the level of available State support for the most needy) and could
>>>>    be described as an evil act, then surely you must conclude that
>>>>    Google is acting in an evil manner.
>>>> 
>>>>    An investigative report by Bloomberg
>>>>    <http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-10/google-revenues-sheltered-in-no-tax-bermuda-soar-to-10-billion.html> has
>>>> 
>>>>    discovered that Google avoided about $2 billion in worldwide
>>>>    income taxes in 2011 by shifting $9.8 billion in revenues into a
>>>>    Bermuda shell company – almost double its total from three years
>>>>    ago. The information was disclosed in a November filing by a
>>>>    Google subsidiary in the Netherlands, which was discovered by
>>>>    reporters from Bloomberg.
>>>> 
>>>>    It appears that Google legally routed profits from overseas
>>>>    subsidiaries into Bermuda, which doesn’t have a corporate income
>>>>    tax, thereby enabling it to cut its overall tax rate almost in
>>>>    half. Bloomberg says the amount moved to Bermuda is equivalent to
>>>>    about 80 per cent of Google’s total pretax profit in 2011.
>>>> 
>>>>    Tax evasion and avoidance costs the European Union a staggering €1
>>>>    trillion a year. That’s worth dwelling on for a moment longer…. €1
>>>>    trillion. No wonder politicians are now acting to try and prevent
>>>>    this financial loss and branding such acts as scandalous and immoral.
>>>> 
>>>>    Bloomberg has a good quote from a UK-based tax accountant, which
>>>>    pretty much sums up the feeling in Europe at the moment. According
>>>>    to Richard Murphy of Tax Research:
>>>> 
>>>>    “The tax strategy of Google and other multinationals is a deep
>>>>    embarrassment to governments around Europe. The political
>>>>    awareness now being created in the UK, and to a lesser degree
>>>>    elsewhere in Europe, is: It’s us or them. People understand that
>>>>    if Google doesn’t pay, somebody else has to pay or services get cut.”
>>>> 
>>>>    Just look what happened to Starbucks. When the public discovered
>>>>    the US coffee giant paid zero taxes in the UK (yes, absolutely
>>>>    nothing at all), it started to boycott the chain.
>>>> 
>>>>    Advertisement
>>>>    As a result, Starbucks was forced to “volunteer” to pay taxes…
>>>> 
>>>>    The UK is Google’s second-biggest market, responsible for about 11
>>>>    per cent of its sales. Of the $4 billion it turned over last year,
>>>>    it paid UK corporation tax of less than $10 million. Bloomberg
>>>>    says Google avoids tax by using an Irish subsidiary to collects
>>>>    revenues from ads sold in the UK, which then pays royalties to
>>>>    another Irish subsidiary whose legal residence is in Bermuda.
>>>>    Payments are then sent to yet another subsidiary in the
>>>>    Netherlands (with no employees, note) before finally reaching the
>>>>    tax haven of Bermuda.
>>>> 
>>>>    Sounds pretty ‘evil’ to me. And if so, then that’s against the
>>>>    internet company’s guiding principles. Stated clearly on the “Ten
>>>>    Things We Know to be True” page on Google
>>>>    <http://www.google.com/about/company/philosophy/>’s website is the
>>>> 
>>>>    following:
>>>> 
>>>>    “You can make money without doing evil.”
>>>> 
>>>>    I’m sorry, Google, but I don’t see how avoiding tax is anything
>>>>    but evil. Of course you – and all companies – have a duty to
>>>>    shareholders to maximise profits. But there are rules. Some of
>>>>    these are merely ethical, whilst some are legal. There is no
>>>>    indication or suggestion that Google has acted illegally, but
>>>>    there is every suggestion that it has acted unethically.
>>>> 
>>>>    And who said you can’t have ‘ethical companies’? Of course you
>>>>    can. I don’t buy the ‘extreme capitalist’ viewpoint that
>>>>    corporations will only act in self-interest and never “do the
>>>>    right thing” or pay their fair share. If their customers start to
>>>>    boycott their services, then they’ll change. It happened with the
>>>>    sudden emergence of all the so-called ‘corporate responsibility’
>>>>    positions that all featured heavily in annual reports. I don’t see
>>>>    why it can’t happen with fair tax positions.
>>>> 
>>>>    Other ICT companies reported in the media to be using this
>>>>    complicated tax evasion (sorry lawyers, of course I mean
>>>>    ‘mitigation’…) structure include Apple, Facebook, Microsoft and
>>>>    Oracle. Unfortunately, Google – and all the others, who no doubt
>>>>    will soon be named and shamed – will continue their sharp
>>>>    practices until they are forced to make a change. If governments
>>>>    can’t do that through the legal process, then it’s up to customers
>>>>    to vote with their feet and walk away from Google services. As
>>>>    Richard Murphy said, consumers are beginning to get the message
>>>>    that it’s “us or them”, and we’re already being squeezed by the
>>>>    many austerity measures that are in effect to drag us out of
>>>>    recession.
>>>> 
>>>>    Come on Google, time to step up to the plate and show some
>>>>    leadership. Pay your fair share. And then the rest of the ICT
>>>>    industry can do likewise. Or else remove that fatuous and
>>>>    out-dated “don’t do evil” slogan from your website once and for all.
>>>> 
>>>>    _Further reading: _The Pearse Trust
>>>>    <http://www.pearse-trust.ie/blog/bid/86105/US-Companies-Their-Use-Of-The-Double-Irish-Dutch-Sandwich> blog
>>>> 
>>>>    has a detailed explanation of the so-called “Double Irish Dutch
>>>>    Sandwich” tax scheme. Please don’t try and implement it.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
>>>> P.O. Box 17862
>>>> Suva
>>>> Fiji
>>>> 
>>>> Twitter: @SalanietaT
>>>> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
>>>> Tel: +679 3544828
>>>> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>> 
>> 
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