[governance] Re: Telecom TV on Google and Taxes

parminder parminder at itforchange.net
Thu Dec 13 11:21:43 EST 2012 


Adam

I am not sure in what reference are you quoting the IGC mandate. Can you 
pl clarify.

I read from your interventions, and that of some others here, that IGC 
should /not/ take up an issue - however damaging it to be to the public 
interest -  as long as a private company is within legal boundaries. Do 
I understand right therefore that if google, facebook or apple was to 
change some privacy setting in a deplorable manner, or make some very 
significant interference with users freedom of expression, all the while 
remaining within legal boundaries, we will never raise an objection; and 
that kind of thing would not be in our mandate?

parminder


On Thursday 13 December 2012 07:34 PM, Adam Peake wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 6:35 PM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Via Google
>>
>> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/11/23/0156212/australian-govt-pledges-action-on-google-tax-evasion
>>
>> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Google-tax-evasion
>>
>> http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/08/09/is-google-avoiding-or-evading-taxes-in-the-uk/
>>
>
> "There seems to be some confusion over whether Google is dodging,
> avoiding or evading corporate taxation in the UK. The first answer is
> the most obvious: it’s not evading taxes because that is illegal, by
> definition. Thus we would expect to see prosecutions if it were
> evading tax. We’re not seeing prosecutions so we might conclude,
> fairly, that there is no evasion going on."
>
> good of you to agree.
>
> and:
>
> "The mission of the Internet Governance Caucus (IGC) is to provide a
> forum for discussion, advocacy, action, and for representation of
> civil society contributions in Internet governance processes. The
> caucus intends to provide an open and effective forum for civil
> society to share opinion, policy options and expertise on Internet
> governance issues, and to provide a mechanism for coordination of
> advocacy to enhance the utilization and influence of Civil Society
> (CS) and the IGC in relevant policy processes."
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>> etc.etc.
>>
>> M
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: apeake at gmail.com [mailto:apeake at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Adam Peake
>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 10:23 AM
>> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: Telecom TV on Google and Taxes
>>
>> Tax evasion, are you suggesting google evades paying tax be illegal means?
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 6:13 PM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I don`t think we are talking about ``voluntary`` tax... Rather we are talking about the lengths that corporations go to for tax avoidance/evasion... That I would guess is somewhat discretionary i.e. management decisions and not particularly transparent to shareholders.
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: apeake at gmail.com [mailto:apeake at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Adam
>>> Peake
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 9:59 AM
>>> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: Telecom TV on Google and Taxes
>>>
>>> Anyone on the list own Google shares?
>>>
>>> What would you do if Google paid a few billions of dollars in voluntary tax and the value of your shares dropped?
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 5:50 PM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Adam,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I`m curious why you think this… I would have thought that governments
>>>> are pretty much impervious to this kind of `lobbying` (jaded from
>>>> experience) while corporations that have as their slogan things like
>>>> `don`t be evil` might be extremely sensitive to this kind of public
>>>> comment on their behaviour by Civil Society.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: apeake at gmail.com [mailto:apeake at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Adam
>>>> Peake
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 9:36 AM
>>>> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: Telecom TV on Google and Taxes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> write to politicians.  to google would be just posturing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
>>>> <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 5:33 PM, parminder
>>>> <parminder at itforchange.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rather shameful that google paid 3 percent tax on its overseas
>>>> profit!! It surely leaves it with a lot of money to spend in lobbying
>>>> and advocacy efforts to keep global markets free for its unlettered
>>>> operations... Like organising campaigns against ITU, German legislature, and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Would IGC write an open letter to Google that its tax evasion policy
>>>> is anti people, and it should pays its taxes where it makes its
>>>> profit. (Or is it that the IG civil society does not go into such re-distributional questions
>>>> )   It is not rhetorical but a real question to the list, and its
>>>> coordinator.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What does the list think?
>>>>
>>>> +1 if you think the IGC should write a letter to Google
>>>>
>>>> -1 if the IGC should not write a letter to Google
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As always the IGC decides
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   parminder
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday 12 December 2012 09:37 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
>>>>
>>>> More on Bloomberg:
>>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-10/google-revenues-sheltered-in
>>>> - no-tax-bermuda-soar-to-10-billion.html
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 4:48 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
>>>> <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Somehow it feels that there is a targeted media campaign out against
>>>> the likes of Google and other mncs - the timing of the release is
>>>> almost impeccable with the WCIT.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Source:
>>>> http://www.telecomtv.com/comspace_newsDetail.aspx?n=49763&id=e9381817
>>>> -
>>>> 0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Google “can make money without doing evil” (as it evades $2bn in
>>>> taxes)
>>>>
>>>> Posted By TelecomTV One , 12 December 2012 | 1 Comments |    (0)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tags: Google corporate tax Finance
>>>>
>>>> As the net closes around the multinationals that avoid paying
>>>> corporation taxes, Google is accused of saving $2bn by routing income
>>>> through a “Double Irish Dutch Sandwich”, paying tax of just 3.2 per
>>>> cent on its overseas profits. Guy Daniels reports.
>>>>
>>>> Three questions. One; where do you stand on the subject of tax
>>>> avoidance? We at TelecomTV believe that individuals and corporations
>>>> have a duty to pay their fair share of tax. By fair, we mean whatever
>>>> respective governments rule to be the legal requirement (after all,
>>>> in most countries, we voted the politicians in to office). By all
>>>> means try and mitigate the amount of tax you have to pay, using
>>>> whatever accepted mechanisms are available. But avoidance? That just
>>>> means somebody else (with far less access to expensive and clever advisors) has to contribute to your share as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Second question: how do you define evil? The Oxford English
>>>> Dictionary defines evil as “profoundly immoral and wicked” or
>>>> “something which is harmful or undesirable”. In my book, that means
>>>> tax avoidance is evil, simple as that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Third and final question: Is Google evil? If you believe that
>>>> avoiding tax is wrong (especially through aggressive and
>>>> mind-boggling complicated avoidance schemes) and if you believe that
>>>> depriving society of tax revenues is wrong (and so reducing the level
>>>> of available State support for the most
>>>> needy) and could be described as an evil act, then surely you must
>>>> conclude that Google is acting in an evil manner.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An investigative report by Bloomberg has discovered that Google
>>>> avoided about $2 billion in worldwide income taxes in 2011 by
>>>> shifting
>>>> $9.8 billion in revenues into a Bermuda shell company – almost double
>>>> its total from three years ago. The information was disclosed in a
>>>> November filing by a Google subsidiary in the Netherlands, which was
>>>> discovered by reporters from Bloomberg.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It appears that Google legally routed profits from overseas
>>>> subsidiaries into Bermuda, which doesn’t have a corporate income tax,
>>>> thereby enabling it to cut its overall tax rate almost in half.
>>>> Bloomberg says the amount moved to Bermuda is equivalent to about 80
>>>> per cent of Google’s total pretax profit in 2011.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tax evasion and avoidance costs the European Union a staggering €1
>>>> trillion a year. That’s worth dwelling on for a moment longer…. €1
>>>> trillion. No wonder politicians are now acting to try and prevent
>>>> this financial loss and branding such acts as scandalous and immoral.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bloomberg has a good quote from a UK-based tax accountant, which
>>>> pretty much sums up the feeling in Europe at the moment. According to
>>>> Richard Murphy of Tax Research:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> “The tax strategy of Google and other multinationals is a deep
>>>> embarrassment to governments around Europe. The political awareness
>>>> now being created in the UK, and to a lesser degree elsewhere in Europe, is: It’s us or them.
>>>> People understand that if Google doesn’t pay, somebody else has to
>>>> pay or services get cut.”
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just look what happened to Starbucks. When the public discovered the
>>>> US coffee giant paid zero taxes in the UK (yes, absolutely nothing at
>>>> all), it started to boycott the chain.
>>>>
>>>> Advertisement
>>>>
>>>> As a result, Starbucks was forced to “volunteer” to pay taxes…
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The UK is Google’s second-biggest market, responsible for about 11
>>>> per cent of its sales. Of the $4 billion it turned over last year, it
>>>> paid UK corporation tax of less than $10 million. Bloomberg says
>>>> Google avoids tax by using an Irish subsidiary to collects revenues
>>>> from ads sold in the UK, which then pays royalties to another Irish
>>>> subsidiary whose legal residence is in Bermuda. Payments are then
>>>> sent to yet another subsidiary in the Netherlands (with no employees,
>>>> note) before finally reaching the tax haven of Bermuda.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sounds pretty ‘evil’ to me. And if so, then that’s against the
>>>> internet company’s guiding principles. Stated clearly on the “Ten
>>>> Things We Know to be True” page on Google’s website is the following:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> “You can make money without doing evil.”
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’m sorry, Google, but I don’t see how avoiding tax is anything but
>>>> evil. Of course you – and all companies – have a duty to shareholders
>>>> to maximise profits. But there are rules. Some of these are merely
>>>> ethical, whilst some are legal. There is no indication or suggestion
>>>> that Google has acted illegally, but there is every suggestion that it has acted unethically.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And who said you can’t have ‘ethical companies’? Of course you can. I
>>>> don’t buy the ‘extreme capitalist’ viewpoint that corporations will
>>>> only act in self-interest and never “do the right thing” or pay their
>>>> fair share. If their customers start to boycott their services, then
>>>> they’ll change. It happened with the sudden emergence of all the
>>>> so-called ‘corporate responsibility’ positions that all featured
>>>> heavily in annual reports. I don’t see why it can’t happen with fair tax positions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Other ICT companies reported in the media to be using this
>>>> complicated tax evasion (sorry lawyers, of course I mean
>>>> ‘mitigation’…) structure include Apple, Facebook, Microsoft and
>>>> Oracle. Unfortunately, Google – and all the others, who no doubt will
>>>> soon be named and shamed – will continue their sharp practices until they are forced to make a change.
>>>> If governments can’t do that through the legal process, then it’s up
>>>> to customers to vote with their feet and walk away from Google
>>>> services. As Richard Murphy said, consumers are beginning to get the
>>>> message that it’s “us or them”, and we’re already being squeezed by
>>>> the many austerity measures that are in effect to drag us out of recession.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Come on Google, time to step up to the plate and show some leadership.
>>>> Pay your fair share. And then the rest of the ICT industry can do
>>>> likewise. Or else remove that fatuous and out-dated “don’t do evil”
>>>> slogan from your website once and for all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Further reading: The Pearse Trust blog has a detailed explanation of
>>>> the so-called “Double Irish Dutch Sandwich” tax scheme. Please don’t
>>>> try and implement it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
>>>>
>>>> P.O. Box 17862
>>>>
>>>> Suva
>>>>
>>>> Fiji
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Twitter: @SalanietaT
>>>>
>>>> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
>>>>
>>>> Tel: +679 3544828
>>>>
>>>> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
>>>>
>>>> P.O. Box 17862
>>>>
>>>> Suva
>>>>
>>>> Fiji
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Twitter: @SalanietaT
>>>>
>>>> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
>>>>
>>>> Tel: +679 3544828
>>>>
>>>> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>       governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>>> To be removed from the list, visit:
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>>>>
>>>> For all other list information and functions, see:
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>>>>
>>>
>>

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