[governance] Re: Telecom TV on Google and Taxes
Suresh Ramasubramanian
suresh at hserus.net
Thu Dec 13 04:46:08 EST 2012
So now all you have to do is wait till whatever cases are filed against google in these countries are tried and a verdict is handed out.
Or is this trial by media, trial by mob (aka civil society mailing list) or ..
--srs (iPad)
On 13-Dec-2012, at 15:05, "michael gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
> Via Google
>
> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/11/23/0156212/australian-govt-pledges-action-on-google-tax-evasion
>
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Google-tax-evasion
>
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/08/09/is-google-avoiding-or-evading-taxes-in-the-uk/
>
> etc.etc.
>
> M
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: apeake at gmail.com [mailto:apeake at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Adam Peake
> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 10:23 AM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: Telecom TV on Google and Taxes
>
> Tax evasion, are you suggesting google evades paying tax be illegal means?
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 6:13 PM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don`t think we are talking about ``voluntary`` tax... Rather we are talking about the lengths that corporations go to for tax avoidance/evasion... That I would guess is somewhat discretionary i.e. management decisions and not particularly transparent to shareholders.
>>
>> M
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: apeake at gmail.com [mailto:apeake at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Adam
>> Peake
>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 9:59 AM
>> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: Telecom TV on Google and Taxes
>>
>> Anyone on the list own Google shares?
>>
>> What would you do if Google paid a few billions of dollars in voluntary tax and the value of your shares dropped?
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 5:50 PM, michael gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Adam,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I`m curious why you think this… I would have thought that governments
>>> are pretty much impervious to this kind of `lobbying` (jaded from
>>> experience) while corporations that have as their slogan things like
>>> `don`t be evil` might be extremely sensitive to this kind of public
>>> comment on their behaviour by Civil Society.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: apeake at gmail.com [mailto:apeake at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Adam
>>> Peake
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 9:36 AM
>>> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: Telecom TV on Google and Taxes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> write to politicians. to google would be just posturing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
>>> <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 5:33 PM, parminder
>>> <parminder at itforchange.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Rather shameful that google paid 3 percent tax on its overseas
>>> profit!! It surely leaves it with a lot of money to spend in lobbying
>>> and advocacy efforts to keep global markets free for its unlettered
>>> operations... Like organising campaigns against ITU, German legislature, and so on.
>>>
>>> Would IGC write an open letter to Google that its tax evasion policy
>>> is anti people, and it should pays its taxes where it makes its
>>> profit. (Or is it that the IG civil society does not go into such re-distributional questions
>>> ) It is not rhetorical but a real question to the list, and its
>>> coordinator.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What does the list think?
>>>
>>> +1 if you think the IGC should write a letter to Google
>>>
>>> -1 if the IGC should not write a letter to Google
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As always the IGC decides
>>>
>>>
>>> parminder
>>>
>>> On Wednesday 12 December 2012 09:37 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
>>>
>>> More on Bloomberg:
>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-10/google-revenues-sheltered-in
>>> - no-tax-bermuda-soar-to-10-billion.html
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 4:48 AM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro
>>> <salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Somehow it feels that there is a targeted media campaign out against
>>> the likes of Google and other mncs - the timing of the release is
>>> almost impeccable with the WCIT.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Source:
>>> http://www.telecomtv.com/comspace_newsDetail.aspx?n=49763&id=e9381817
>>> -
>>> 0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Google “can make money without doing evil” (as it evades $2bn in
>>> taxes)
>>>
>>> Posted By TelecomTV One , 12 December 2012 | 1 Comments | (0)
>>>
>>>
>>> Tags: Google corporate tax Finance
>>>
>>> As the net closes around the multinationals that avoid paying
>>> corporation taxes, Google is accused of saving $2bn by routing income
>>> through a “Double Irish Dutch Sandwich”, paying tax of just 3.2 per
>>> cent on its overseas profits. Guy Daniels reports.
>>>
>>> Three questions. One; where do you stand on the subject of tax
>>> avoidance? We at TelecomTV believe that individuals and corporations
>>> have a duty to pay their fair share of tax. By fair, we mean whatever
>>> respective governments rule to be the legal requirement (after all,
>>> in most countries, we voted the politicians in to office). By all
>>> means try and mitigate the amount of tax you have to pay, using
>>> whatever accepted mechanisms are available. But avoidance? That just
>>> means somebody else (with far less access to expensive and clever advisors) has to contribute to your share as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Second question: how do you define evil? The Oxford English
>>> Dictionary defines evil as “profoundly immoral and wicked” or
>>> “something which is harmful or undesirable”. In my book, that means
>>> tax avoidance is evil, simple as that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Third and final question: Is Google evil? If you believe that
>>> avoiding tax is wrong (especially through aggressive and
>>> mind-boggling complicated avoidance schemes) and if you believe that
>>> depriving society of tax revenues is wrong (and so reducing the level
>>> of available State support for the most
>>> needy) and could be described as an evil act, then surely you must
>>> conclude that Google is acting in an evil manner.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An investigative report by Bloomberg has discovered that Google
>>> avoided about $2 billion in worldwide income taxes in 2011 by
>>> shifting
>>> $9.8 billion in revenues into a Bermuda shell company – almost double
>>> its total from three years ago. The information was disclosed in a
>>> November filing by a Google subsidiary in the Netherlands, which was
>>> discovered by reporters from Bloomberg.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It appears that Google legally routed profits from overseas
>>> subsidiaries into Bermuda, which doesn’t have a corporate income tax,
>>> thereby enabling it to cut its overall tax rate almost in half.
>>> Bloomberg says the amount moved to Bermuda is equivalent to about 80
>>> per cent of Google’s total pretax profit in 2011.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tax evasion and avoidance costs the European Union a staggering €1
>>> trillion a year. That’s worth dwelling on for a moment longer…. €1
>>> trillion. No wonder politicians are now acting to try and prevent
>>> this financial loss and branding such acts as scandalous and immoral.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bloomberg has a good quote from a UK-based tax accountant, which
>>> pretty much sums up the feeling in Europe at the moment. According to
>>> Richard Murphy of Tax Research:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> “The tax strategy of Google and other multinationals is a deep
>>> embarrassment to governments around Europe. The political awareness
>>> now being created in the UK, and to a lesser degree elsewhere in Europe, is: It’s us or them.
>>> People understand that if Google doesn’t pay, somebody else has to
>>> pay or services get cut.”
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just look what happened to Starbucks. When the public discovered the
>>> US coffee giant paid zero taxes in the UK (yes, absolutely nothing at
>>> all), it started to boycott the chain.
>>>
>>> Advertisement
>>>
>>> As a result, Starbucks was forced to “volunteer” to pay taxes…
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The UK is Google’s second-biggest market, responsible for about 11
>>> per cent of its sales. Of the $4 billion it turned over last year, it
>>> paid UK corporation tax of less than $10 million. Bloomberg says
>>> Google avoids tax by using an Irish subsidiary to collects revenues
>>> from ads sold in the UK, which then pays royalties to another Irish
>>> subsidiary whose legal residence is in Bermuda. Payments are then
>>> sent to yet another subsidiary in the Netherlands (with no employees,
>>> note) before finally reaching the tax haven of Bermuda.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds pretty ‘evil’ to me. And if so, then that’s against the
>>> internet company’s guiding principles. Stated clearly on the “Ten
>>> Things We Know to be True” page on Google’s website is the following:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> “You can make money without doing evil.”
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’m sorry, Google, but I don’t see how avoiding tax is anything but
>>> evil. Of course you – and all companies – have a duty to shareholders
>>> to maximise profits. But there are rules. Some of these are merely
>>> ethical, whilst some are legal. There is no indication or suggestion
>>> that Google has acted illegally, but there is every suggestion that it has acted unethically.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And who said you can’t have ‘ethical companies’? Of course you can. I
>>> don’t buy the ‘extreme capitalist’ viewpoint that corporations will
>>> only act in self-interest and never “do the right thing” or pay their
>>> fair share. If their customers start to boycott their services, then
>>> they’ll change. It happened with the sudden emergence of all the
>>> so-called ‘corporate responsibility’ positions that all featured
>>> heavily in annual reports. I don’t see why it can’t happen with fair tax positions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Other ICT companies reported in the media to be using this
>>> complicated tax evasion (sorry lawyers, of course I mean
>>> ‘mitigation’…) structure include Apple, Facebook, Microsoft and
>>> Oracle. Unfortunately, Google – and all the others, who no doubt will
>>> soon be named and shamed – will continue their sharp practices until they are forced to make a change.
>>> If governments can’t do that through the legal process, then it’s up
>>> to customers to vote with their feet and walk away from Google
>>> services. As Richard Murphy said, consumers are beginning to get the
>>> message that it’s “us or them”, and we’re already being squeezed by
>>> the many austerity measures that are in effect to drag us out of recession.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Come on Google, time to step up to the plate and show some leadership.
>>> Pay your fair share. And then the rest of the ICT industry can do
>>> likewise. Or else remove that fatuous and out-dated “don’t do evil”
>>> slogan from your website once and for all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Further reading: The Pearse Trust blog has a detailed explanation of
>>> the so-called “Double Irish Dutch Sandwich” tax scheme. Please don’t
>>> try and implement it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
>>>
>>> P.O. Box 17862
>>>
>>> Suva
>>>
>>> Fiji
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Twitter: @SalanietaT
>>>
>>> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
>>>
>>> Tel: +679 3544828
>>>
>>> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
>>>
>>> P.O. Box 17862
>>>
>>> Suva
>>>
>>> Fiji
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Twitter: @SalanietaT
>>>
>>> Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
>>>
>>> Tel: +679 3544828
>>>
>>> Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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