[governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new approach to Internet governance!

Wed Dec 12 10:58:26 EST 2012

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 3:40 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian
<suresh at hserus.net>wrote:

> When you put it that way, I do agree - but the liability doesn't fall on
> the IXP at all, it still falls on the ISPs that actually host the content.
>

It depends on the laws in the country hosting and what it says about
liability. Each context differs. This can be found in their Policy or Law.

>
>
>
> On 12-Dec-2012, at 19:30, Michael Kende <Michael.Kende at analysysmason.com>
> wrote:
>
> Yes, thank you, I could have explained that a key part of the IXP was to
> attract content providers to host their content in proximity to the IXP,
> either in a larger data center (like Equinix) or at independent data
> centers (like AMS-IX).
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh at hserus.net <suresh at hserus.net>]
>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 2:57 PM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Michael Kende
> Cc: Bertrand de La Chapelle; Nick Ashton-Hart; Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> Baruch; Jovan Kurbalija; McTim
> Subject: Re: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new approach
> to Internet governance!
>
> Hi
>
> In an exchange point there's no "storing" of traffic as such
>
> Think of it as an interchange where cars take different exits to reach
> different places, rather than as a parking garage where the car finally
> gets parked, would be a non technical (and of course, extremely nit
> pickable) analogy
>
> Michael Kende [12/12/12 13:54 +0000]:
> >Hello Bertrand and Nick,
> >
> >This is a very interesting thread, as we have been doing a lot of work
> helping to setup IXPs in countries, and for one project we were working on
> in an Arab country it seemed that this principle was not commonly accepted
> with respect to hosted traffic. In other words, no one worried about
> traffic that was transiting the country, by terrestrial or submarine
> cables, but content providers questioned what would happen if that traffic
> was going to be hosted in a country where it was illegal, even if it was
> not meant for consumption in that country. I guess to extend the Sea
> metaphor this is like shipping something that is legal in the source and
> destination country, but not in a country where the container may be
> offloaded to move to a new ship. Is it illegally in that third country? The
> equivalent that was cited to us was that it was legal to transport alcohol
> across some countries where it was illegal, as long as the truck was sealed.
> >
> >The question then is whether this principle of non-tampering with transit
> traffic holds for traffic that may be stored in the country, even if it was
> filtered along with other international content before being viewed by
> citizens of the country where it was hosted.
> >
> >Thanks
> >Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org
> >[mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>]
> On Behalf Of Bertrand de
> >La Chapelle
> >Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 6:11 PM
> >To: Nick Ashton-Hart
> >Cc: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch; Jovan
> >Kurbalija; McTim
> >Subject: Re: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new
> approach to Internet governance!
> >
> >Dear Nick,
> >
> >Just a brief comment on the issue of "transit traffic". This is an
> interesting component to explore. As I have often said, I believe that
> Egypt acted in reference to an implicit emerging international principle of
> "non-tampering with transit traffic" when it blocked access to the Internet
> during the Arab Spring but did not impact the transit traffic serving the
> easter coast of Africa.
> >
> >Discussing this in more detail would indeed be useful and could probably
> be part of an international/global regime.
> >
> >Best
> >
> >Bertrand
> >
> >
> >On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Nick Ashton-Hart <nashton at ccianet.org><
> mailto:nashton at ccianet.org <nashton at ccianet.org>>> wrote:
> >Funny, I have been thinking of the Law of the Sea for a few weeks as an
> interesting construct for the legal protection of the open flow of data.
> >
> >It is true that there's a built environment to the Internet - but in
> maritime law ships are also physical and registered with a state. However,
> the space they travel through, beyond the territorial waters limit, is open
> sea and by definition not owned by anyone.
> >
> >If we used this construct to protect the flow of international data, that
> might be a workable metaphor. The Law of the Sea embodied in UNCLOS is,
> after all, largely simply a distillation of internationally-understood
> principles about maritime law that go back to the Roman period.
> >
> >We could do much worse than an international understanding that data,
> when transiting any country between a source and destination in third
> countries, was legally not actually 'in' the territory or subject to the
> laws of the state it was transiting, but subject only to an international
> regime.
> >
> >(Bertrand: these ideas are what I was speaking of when I told you at Baku
> I had an idea for your jurisdiction project that might have potential).
> >
> >FWIW: For those who are about to remind me, I am aware that the USG has
> yet to ratify UNCLOS. It is clear that the current Administration is very
> much in favour of doing so, however, as are many members of the legislative
> branch).
> >--
> >Regards,
> >
> >Nick Ashton-Hart
> >Geneva Representative
> >Computer & Communications Industry Assocation (CCIA)
> >Tel: +41 (22) 534 99 45<tel:%2B41%20%2822%29%20534%2099%2045>
> >Fax: : +41 (22) 594-85-44<tel:%2B41%20%2822%29%20594-85-44>
> >Mobile: +41 79 595 5468<tel:%2B41%2079%20595%205468> USA DID: +1 (202)
> >640-5430<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20640-5430>
> >
> >Need to meet with me? Schedule the time that suits us both here:
> >http://meetme.so/nashton
> >
> >Sent from my one of my handheld thingies, please excuse linguistic
> mangling.
> >
> >On 7 Dec 2012, at 16:23, "Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch" <apisan at unam.mx><
> mailto:apisan at unam.mx <apisan at unam.mx>>> wrote:
> >Jovan,
> >
> >thanks for doing a pretty innovative thing here: discussing ideas.
> Further, bringing a fresh approach and actual expertise.
> >
> >My long-standing concern for analogies between Internet governance and
> >the laws of the sea is that the Internet is much more a built
> >environment than the sea (not that the sea is all natural and in fixed
> >form forever, immune to our contamination and our imagintion.)
> >
> >So Internet governance refers not only to rules etc. to live on the
> existing Internet, but also has to be useful as guidance in its expansion
> and development. To abuse your analogy, it's not only about shipping,
> fishing, and mining, but also about how to actually make the oceans of
> tomorrow.
> >
> >That brings you to points like: you can use Ostromian theory to
> understand the tragedy of the commons in fisheries; but can you extend it
> to Internet governance? What are the limitations? Can you address concerns
> from liberals to socialists in a new framework without actually changing
> the salinity or wanting to reverse the flow of the Humboldt current?
> >
> >Any thoughts?
> >
> >Yours,
> >
> >Alejandro Pisanty
> >
> >
> >! !! !!! !!!!
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> > Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> >UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
> >
> >Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
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> >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> >
> >________________________________
> >Desde:
> >governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance-request at lists.i<governance-request at lists.i>
> >gcaucus.org>
> >[governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance-request at lists.
> >igcaucus.org>] en nombre de Jovan Kurbalija
> >[jovank at diplomacy.edu<mailto:jovank at diplomacy.edu <jovank at diplomacy.edu>
> >]
> >Enviado el: viernes, 07 de diciembre de 2012 08:37
> >Hasta:
> >governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org<governance at lists.igcaucus.org>>;
>
> >McTim
> >Asunto: Re: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new approach
> to Internet governance!
> >Well, we have innovation! With the IGF in Bali, and ICANN on a cruise
> ship, we may have 'beach or floating governance'. Internet governance could
> be fun!
> >
> >I like the metaphor of the ship since it implies our common destiny. We
> are all passengers of ICANNia or ITUnia or...? Metaphors are also useful to
> remove our tunnel vision and make us think more creatively. In another
> metaphor, I hope that Internetistan will resist Absurdistan (here is the
> map of this fast-growing country<
> http://diplo.smugmug.com/ILLUSTRATIONS/Posters-1/4464706_T4FW6r#%21i=1104113260&k=2GsD8hV&lb=1&s=A
> >).
> >
> >But back to the current reality. Unfortunately, the ICANN cruise ship
> won't solve the problem of internationalisation. 'Open sea' refers only to
> freedom of navigation. It does not deal with the status of the ship. All
> relations on the ship are regulated by the national law of the ship's flag.
> ICANNia has to be registered somewhere. One solution could be a flag of
> convenience such as Liberia or Panama. What happens on the ICANNia is
> regulated by national law, with no major differences from any other
> land-based entity (company, organisation). Yes, ICANNia can sail in
> whatever direction it wants to sail, but the decision must be made by the
> captain according to the rules of the flag's state. Extrapolating from the
> role of the captain on the ship, the ICANNia would look like military unit.
> The cruise ship metaphor gets even more interesting when we consider
> different classes of cabins, rescue operations, etc.
> >
> >These thoughts have taken me back to Hugo Grotius's book Mare Liberum
> that established the "open sea" concept four centuries ago as opposed to
> the idea of a Mare Nostrum. His relevance for our time is sobering. If we
> replace 'sea' with 'Internet' we could have the next book on the Internet.
> Grotius was a very interesting personality. Besides being one of the first
> international lawyers, he was one of the founders of the 'natural law'
> school of thought. In addition, he wrote a lot about social contract
> (before Rousseau, Locke, and others). As a matter of fact, his social
> contract theory could be applicable to the Internet.
> >
> >When it comes to the concept of open sea, Grotius had an interesting
> interplay with the political masters of his era. He believed in open sea,
> but Dutch and British authorities quickly realised the usefulness of his
> doctrine. They had the biggest fleets and had ambitions to develop trade
> and colonial empires. Grotius provided them with the necessary doctrine or
> 'political software'. However, Grotius always argued that 'open sea' needs
> rules and principles in order to be 'open'. Although it was
> counter-intuitive to the leaders of two growing maritime powers, he managed
> to convince them that it was in their best interest to 'tame' their
> comparative powers and ensure the sustainability of their empires beyond
> the 17th century. Everything else has written the history, which proved
> Grotius right. We can draw many parallels, with the necessary caution that
> historical analogies should be handled with care.
> >
> >While we are waiting for a new Grotius (or Godot), we should review how
> we debate Internet governance issues. Grotius was a great scholar who
> mastered the existing rules before he started changing them. We, on the
> other hand, use well-defined and developed concepts in a relaxed way. A few
> examples...
> >
> >As we saw, the frequently used metaphor of the open sea does not
> translate to an open Internet. In many respects, it can lead in the
> opposite direction (Internet Nostrum).
> >
> >Another example is the role of states' responsibility in the Internet
> era. This is a well-defined concept in international law. If we want states
> to be responsible for whatever is originating in their territories (e.g.
> cyber-attacks, botnets), we have to give them the tools to ensure their
> responsibility (mainly state control, regulation, and surveillance). Most
> writings on state responsibility start from the opposite assumption, i.e.
> the limited role of the state. With all the creativity and imagination in
> the world, we still cannot have it both ways.
> >
> >The most topical example of the need for evidence-based policy is the
> case of the Red Cross name/emblem at ICANN. There are very clear rules for
> the protection of the Red Cross name/emblem that were adopted some 100
> years ago and have been followed, without reservation, on national and
> international levels. ICANN was right in protecting the Red Cross name but
> made the mistake of putting it together with organisations that do not
> enjoy the same status (the International Olympic Committee).
> >
> >Even if we want to change the rules in order to adjust to the
> specificities of the Internet era (if any), we have first to master them. I
> see here an important role for academic and civil society communities. If
> we had advised ICANN to evaluate the Red Cross and IOC submissions
> separately, we could have avoided a lot of policy confusion and wasted time.
> >
> >The GIGANET might consider the evidence-based policy research as the key
> theme for the next meeting?
> >
> >Regards, Jovan
> >
> >On 12/6/12 3:31 PM, McTim wrote:
> >All,
> >
> >If domiciling ICANN in a nation state is problematic, perhaps ICANN could
> buy this cruise ship as a HQ:
> >
> >http://cruiseship.homestead.com/Cruise-Ship.html
> >
> >It would help solve the problem of internationalisation, be a permanent
> host for ICANN meetings (2450 berths....saving hotel costs for all) and
> generate revenue intersessionally. It's a 3-fer, plus it's a snip @~ 300
> million USD!!
> >
> >
> >--
> >Cheers,
> >
> >McTim
> >"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
> >route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel
> >
> >--
> >
> >Jovan Kurbalija, PhD
> >Director, DiploFoundation
> >Rue de Lausanne 56 | 1202 Geneva | Switzerland Tel. +41 (0) 22
> >7410435<tel:%2B41%20%280%29%2022%207410435> | Mobile. +41 (0)
> >797884226<tel:%2B41%20%280%29%20797884226>
> >Email: jovank at diplomacy.edu<mailto:jovank at diplomacy.edu<jovank at diplomacy.edu>>
> | Twitter:
> >@jovankurbalija
> >
> >
> >The latest from Diplo: today - this week - this
> >month<http://www.diplomacy.edu/currently> l Conference on Innovation in
> >Diplomacy (Malta, 19-20 November
> >2012)<http://www.diplomacy.edu/conferences/innovation> l new online
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> >____________________________________________________________
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> >--
> >____________________
> >Bertrand de La Chapelle
> >Internet & Jurisdiction Project Director, International Diplomatic
> >Academy
> >(www.internetjurisdiction.net<http://www.internetjurisdiction.net>)
> >Member, ICANN Board of Directors
> >Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32
> >
> >"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de
> >Saint Exupéry ("there is no greater mission for humans than uniting
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