[governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new approach to Internet governance!

Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com
Wed Dec 12 10:54:59 EST 2012 

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 4:20 AM, Michael Kende <
Michael.Kende at analysysmason.com> wrote:

>  Thank you Parminder, that is very interesting, and I did not know that.
> According to the original principle described below, though there would not
> be interference in transit traffic, even if it contained content that
> violated domestic rules.  But what if that content was stored in the
> country even though it was not consumed in that country?  So in other
> words, if something is sent from country A to B via C via transit, there
> would not be any interference, but what if it was stored in a cache in
> country C for use by country B?
>

If we continue with the example that Parminder raised in relation to
addressing IPR violations where the "subject" in this case the "content" is
in "transit"-  this is why countries around the world at least as far as
IPRs have been pushing harmonisation of their laws.  There are massive
implications on openness etc.

Sala

> ****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [mailto:
> governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] *On Behalf Of *parminder
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 12, 2012 4:08 PM
> *To:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new
> approach to Internet governance!****
>
>  ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Wednesday 12 December 2012 07:24 PM, Michael Kende wrote:****
>
> Hello Bertrand and Nick,****
>
>  <snip_****
>
> The question then is whether this principle of non-tampering with transit
> traffic holds for traffic that may be stored in the country, even if it was
> filtered along with other international content before being viewed by
> citizens of the country where it was hosted.  ****
>
>
> Michael
>
> You may know that third party cargo in transit is being impounded in OECD
> countries for IP violation when the stuff is made on one country and headed
> for another, and has nothing to do with the impounding jurisdiction. see
> for instance,
> http://keionline.org/blogs/2009/02/03/intervention-by-brazil-at-wto-general-council-on-seizure-of-500-kilos-of-generic-medicines-by-dutch-customs-aut
>
> There have been other cases as well. I understand 'border measures'
> envisaged under ACTA also enables such in transit seizures of third party
> goods.
>
> parminder
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> Thanks****
>
> Michael****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [
> mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *Bertrand de La Chapelle
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 11, 2012 6:11 PM
> *To:* Nick Ashton-Hart
> *Cc:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch; Jovan
> Kurbalija; McTim
> *Subject:* Re: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new
> approach to Internet governance!****
>
>  ****
>
> Dear Nick, ****
>
>  ****
>
> Just a brief comment on the issue of "transit traffic". This is an
> interesting component to explore. As I have often said, I believe that
> Egypt acted in reference to an implicit emerging international principle of
> "*non-tampering with transit traffic*" when it blocked access to the
> Internet during the Arab Spring but did not impact the transit traffic
> serving the easter coast of Africa. ****
>
>  ****
>
> Discussing this in more detail would indeed be useful and could probably
> be part of an international/global regime. ****
>
>  ****
>
> Best****
>
>  ****
>
> Bertrand****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Nick Ashton-Hart <nashton at ccianet.org>
> wrote:****
>
> Funny, I have been thinking of the Law of the Sea for a few weeks as an
> interesting construct for the legal protection of the open flow of data.**
> **
>
>  ****
>
> It is true that there's a built environment to the Internet - but in
> maritime law ships are also physical and registered with a state. However,
> the space they travel through, beyond the territorial waters limit, is open
> sea and by definition not owned by anyone.****
>
>  ****
>
> If we used this construct to protect the flow of international data, that
> might be a workable metaphor. The Law of the Sea embodied in UNCLOS is,
> after all, largely simply a distillation of internationally-understood
> principles about maritime law that go back to the Roman period. ****
>
>  ****
>
> We could do much worse than an international understanding that data, when
> transiting any country between a source and destination in third countries,
> was legally not actually 'in' the territory or subject to the laws of the
> state it was transiting, but subject only to an international regime.
>
> (Bertrand: these ideas are what I was speaking of when I told you at Baku
> I had an idea for your jurisdiction project that might have potential).***
> *
>
>  ****
>
> FWIW: For those who are about to remind me, I am aware that the USG has
> yet to ratify UNCLOS. It is clear that the current Administration is very
> much in favour of doing so, however, as are many members of the legislative
> branch).****
>
> -- ****
>
> Regards,****
>
>  ****
>
> Nick Ashton-Hart****
>
> Geneva Representative****
>
> Computer & Communications Industry Assocation (CCIA)****
>
> Tel: +41 (22) 534 99 45****
>
> Fax: : +41 (22) 594-85-44****
>
> Mobile: +41 79 595 5468 ****
>
> USA DID: +1 (202) 640-5430****
>
>  ****
>
> *Need to meet with me? Schedule the time that suits us both here:
> http://meetme.so/nashton*****
>
>  ****
>
> Sent from my one of my handheld thingies, please excuse linguistic
> mangling.****
>
>
> On 7 Dec 2012, at 16:23, "Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch" <apisan at unam.mx>
> wrote:****
>
>  Jovan, ****
>
>  ****
>
> thanks for doing a pretty innovative thing here: discussing ideas.
> Further, bringing a fresh approach and actual expertise. ****
>
>  ****
>
> My long-standing concern for analogies between Internet governance and the
> laws of the sea is that the Internet is much more a built environment than
> the sea (not that the sea is all natural and in fixed form forever, immune
> to our contamination and our imagintion.) ****
>
>  ****
>
> So Internet governance refers not only to rules etc. to live on the
> existing Internet, but also has to be useful as guidance in its expansion
> and development. To abuse your analogy, it's not only about shipping,
> fishing, and mining, but also about how to actually make the oceans of
> tomorrow. ****
>
>  ****
>
> That brings you to points like: you can use Ostromian theory to understand
> the tragedy of the commons in fisheries; but can you extend it to Internet
> governance? What are the limitations? Can you address concerns from
> liberals to socialists in a new framework without actually changing the
> salinity or wanting to reverse the flow of the Humboldt current? ****
>
>  ****
>
> Any thoughts?****
>
>  ****
>
> Yours,****
>
>  ****
>
> Alejandro Pisanty****
>
>  ****
>
>    ****
>
> ! !! !!! !!!!****
>
> NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO****
>
>  ****
>
> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD ****
>
> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO ****
>
> SMS +525541444475
>      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>
> Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty
> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org
> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . ****
>   ------------------------------
>
> *Desde:* governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org [
> governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] en nombre de Jovan Kurbalija [
> jovank at diplomacy.edu]
> *Enviado el:* viernes, 07 de diciembre de 2012 08:37
> *Hasta:* governance at lists.igcaucus.org; McTim
> *Asunto:* Re: [governance] Internetistan, or the Bit Boat... a new
> approach to Internet governance!****
>
> Well, we have innovation!  With the IGF in Bali, and ICANN on a cruise
> ship, we may have 'beach or floating governance'. Internet governance could
> be fun!****
>
>
> I like the metaphor of the ship since it implies our common destiny. We
> are all passengers of ICANNia or ITUnia or...*?*       Metaphors are also
> useful to remove our tunnel vision and make us think more creatively. In
> another metaphor, I hope that Internetistan will resist Absurdistan (here
> is the map of this fast-growing country<http://diplo.smugmug.com/ILLUSTRATIONS/Posters-1/4464706_T4FW6r#%21i=1104113260&k=2GsD8hV&lb=1&s=A>).
>
>
> But back to the current reality. Unfortunately, the ICANN cruise ship
> won't solve the problem of internationalisation. 'Open sea' refers only to
> freedom of navigation. It does not deal with the status of the ship. All
> relations on the ship are regulated by the national law of the ship's flag.
> ICANNia has to be registered somewhere. One solution could be a flag of
> convenience such as Liberia or Panama.  What happens on the ICANNia is
> regulated by national law, with no major differences from any other
> land-based entity (company, organisation). Yes, ICANNia can sail in
> whatever direction it wants to sail, but the decision must be made by the
> captain according to the rules of the flag's state. Extrapolating from the
> role of the captain on the ship, the ICANNia would look like military unit.
> The cruise ship metaphor gets even more interesting  when we consider
> different classes of cabins, rescue operations, etc.
>
> These thoughts have taken me back to Hugo Grotius's book *Mare Liberum*that established the "open sea" concept four centuries ago as opposed to
> the idea of a *Mare Nostrum*. * *His relevance for our time is sobering.
> If we replace 'sea' with 'Internet' we could have the next book on the
> Internet. Grotius was a very interesting personality.* * Besides being
> one of the first international lawyers, he was one of the founders of the
> 'natural law' school of thought.  In addition, he wrote a lot about social
> contract (before Rousseau, Locke, and others). As a matter of fact, his
> social contract theory could be applicable to the Internet. ****
>
>  ****
>
> When it comes to the concept of open sea, Grotius had an interesting
> interplay with the political masters of his era.  He believed in open sea,
> but Dutch and British authorities quickly realised the usefulness of his
> doctrine. They had the biggest fleets and had ambitions to develop trade
> and colonial empires. Grotius provided them with the necessary doctrine or
> 'political software'.  However, Grotius always argued that 'open sea' needs
> rules and principles in order to be 'open'. Although it was
> counter-intuitive to the leaders of two growing maritime powers, he managed
> to convince them that it was in their best interest to 'tame' their
> comparative powers and ensure the sustainability of their empires beyond
> the 17th century. Everything else has written the history, which proved
> Grotius right. We can draw many parallels, with the necessary caution that
> historical analogies should be handled with care.
>
> While we are waiting for a new Grotius (or Godot), we should review how we
> debate Internet governance issues. Grotius was a great scholar who mastered
> the existing rules before he started changing them. We, on the other hand,
> use well-defined and developed concepts in a relaxed way. A few examples...
>
> As we saw, the frequently used metaphor of the open sea does not translate
> to an open Internet. In many respects, it can lead in the opposite
> direction (Internet Nostrum).
>
> Another example is the role of states' responsibility in the Internet era.
> This is a well-defined concept in international law. If we want states to
> be responsible for whatever is originating in their territories  (e.g.
> cyber-attacks, botnets),  we have to give them the tools to ensure their
> responsibility (mainly state control, regulation, and surveillance). Most
> writings on state responsibility start from the opposite assumption, i.e.
> the limited role of the state. With all the creativity and imagination in
> the world, we still cannot have it both ways.
>
> The most topical example of the need for evidence-based policy is the case
> of the Red Cross name/emblem at ICANN. There are very clear rules for the
> protection of the Red Cross name/emblem that were adopted some 100 years
> ago and have been followed, without  reservation, on national and
> international levels.  ICANN was right in protecting the Red Cross name but
> made the mistake of putting it together with organisations that do not
> enjoy the same status (the International Olympic Committee).
>
> Even if we want to change the rules in order to adjust to
> the specificities of the Internet era (if any), we have first to master
> them. I see here an important role for academic and civil society
> communities. If we had advised ICANN to evaluate the Red Cross and IOC
> submissions separately, we could have avoided a lot of policy confusion and
> wasted time.
>
> The GIGANET might consider the evidence-based policy research as the key
> theme for the next meeting?
>
> Regards, Jovan
>
>
> ****
>
> On 12/6/12 3:31 PM, McTim wrote:****
>
> All, ****
>
>  ****
>
> If domiciling ICANN in a nation state is problematic, perhaps ICANN could
> buy this cruise ship as a HQ:****
>
>  ****
>
> http://cruiseship.homestead.com/Cruise-Ship.html****
>
>  ****
>
> It would help solve the problem of internationalisation, be a permanent
> host for ICANN meetings (2450 berths....saving hotel costs for all) and
> generate revenue intersessionally.  It's a 3-fer, plus it's a snip @~ 300
> million USD!!****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route
> indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel****
>
>  ****
>
> -- ****
>
>  ****
>
> *Jovan Kurbalija, PhD*****
>
> Director, DiploFoundation****
>
> Rue de Lausanne 56 *| *1202 Geneva *| *Switzerland****
>
> *Tel.* +41 (0) 22 7410435 *| Mobile.* +41 (0) 797884226****
>
> *Email: *jovank at diplomacy.edu  *| Twitter:* @jovankurbalija ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> *The latest from Diplo:* today – this week – this month<http://www.diplomacy.edu/currently>
> *l* Conference on Innovation in Diplomacy (Malta, 19-20 November 2012)<http://www.diplomacy.edu/conferences/innovation>
> *l** *new online courses <http://www.diplomacy.edu/courses>****
>
>   ____________________________________________________________****
>
>
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>     http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t****
>
>
>
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> --
> ____________________
> Bertrand de La Chapelle****
>
> Internet & Jurisdiction Project Director, International Diplomatic Academy
> (www.internetjurisdiction.net)****
>
> Member, ICANN Board of Directors
> Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32
>
> "Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de Saint
> Exupéry
> ("there is no greater mission for humans than uniting humans")****
>
>  ****
>
>
> ****
>  ------------------------------
>
> This email is confidential and is protected by copyright. When addressed
> to our clients it is subject to our terms and conditions of business.
>
> Analysys Mason Limited is registered in England and Wales. Registered
> office: Bush House, North West Wing, London WC2B 4PJ, UK. Registered number
> 05177472. Tel +44 845 600 5244. Email enquiries at analysysmason.com or
> visit www.analysysmason.com ****
>  ------------------------------
>
> ** **
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> This email is confidential and is protected by copyright. When addressed
> to our clients it is subject to our terms and conditions of business.
>
> Analysys Mason Limited is registered in England and Wales. Registered
> office: Bush House, North West Wing, London WC2B 4PJ, UK. Registered number
> 05177472. Tel +44 845 600 5244. Email enquiries at analysysmason.com or
> visit www.analysysmason.com
> ------------------------------
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.igcaucus.org
> To be removed from the list, visit:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
> For all other list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>      http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>


-- 
Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala
P.O. Box 17862
Suva
Fiji

Twitter: @SalanietaT
Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro
Tel: +679 3544828
Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.igcaucus.org/pipermail/governance/attachments/20121213/4a10fabb/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.igcaucus.org
To be removed from the list, visit:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing

For all other list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
     http://www.igcaucus.org/

Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t

More information about the Governance mailing list