[governance] Julian Assange extradition: Ecuador 'willing to co-operate' with Britain

Riaz K Tayob riaz.tayob at gmail.com
Mon Aug 20 09:26:09 EDT 2012


First (not on your post, but provoked by it) of all we could embrace 
some of the complexity of the situation and have people state their 
views without calling for the silencing of others' views (othering iow) 
- that not all those who support Assange's asylum request are against 
the complainants, are conspiracy theorists nor trying to introduce 
unrelated issues into this sphere (we merely respond to the invitation 
of Exceptionalism)... iow some decorum instead of pushing people with 
different (and credible - i.e. capable of being entertained without 
being accepted) world views into a defensive corner.

Second, some clarity on facts (like reality, which has some consistency) 
would be ok. When Assange claims political asylum of course he is 
skipping bail. But asylum is granted to those with a well founded fear 
of persecution. In UK he is a criminal, in Ecuador he is not. To simply 
insist that the rich North countries are better does not take the 
argument further. Then to stoop to namecalling (conspiracy theorist, 
callous about rape - or alleged rape, etc) as a tactic is just nonsense.

There are many people who see the need for dealing with issues of 
legitimacy. But civil society on this list seems to arrogate to certain 
groups/individuals/world views that authority to tell others not only 
what to think and how to think. If (and not speaking for others, but 
with some identification - with which they can disagree) Parminder et al 
were to adopt the tone of our critics then on issues like the Great Fire 
Wall of China we could namecall too and say racists (invitation - review 
China discussions with what was said about the North and see for 
yourself), what would happen to discussion and debate? We could even 
call out about coconuts (no one makes claims about the South or Third 
World being homogenous). But, with restraint, we largely refrain and 
simply point to double standards, which with reason can be worked 
through (of course no point engaging when you are not open to even 
entertain others ideas, or that newbies on this list seem to get scared 
about sharing info or their openness is read as siding with a particular 
view). When American Exceptionalism is introduced as a rational, we 
discuss it - and this list is remarkable for it robustness - and is free 
from constrained political correctness. If Assange is irrelevant then 
analogously so is AExcep as a rationale for DOC/ICANN/IANA domination of 
CIR. But no one seems to make this link which follows logically (as the 
argument goes)...

And imho there seems to be a "majority" (perhaps of posters to this 
list) that seemingly support (albeit critically) ICANN (failing to see 
that non-participation with it but participation with UN structures is a 
democractic choice) win out as if majority is the only determinant of 
legitimacy. That is why there are Bills of Rights - which ALSO operate 
as countermajoritarian devices - some things, like racism are just not 
on despite what the majority may want or think, or that in international 
relations legitimacy is as important as effectiveness.

It is tragic that we have to deal with idiocy (in the classical sense - 
those who do not engage in democracy) and have to repeatedly assert that 
we have the right to define the debate in 'our' own terms (eg legitimacy 
vs/AND effectiveness).

More specifically, on what would "open eyes" I am not sure. As it is 
difficult. We do need to handle complexity which means handling 
contradictions - as some who do engage claim to do when they engage in 
ICANN etc. But simply because one group finds a particular set of 
contradictions acceptable does not mean that they are universally 
applicable. Those who insisted on only a single root then go on to 
complain about technical "incompetence" of others. I mean, how does one 
go about engaging on let alone resolving these kinds of first principle 
double standards?

Some of these issues can be managed in at least the form and manner of 
debate , but I think it is high time that those who call for balance in 
support of their world view take a principled/ethical stance to 
engagement on this list without seeking to question the right of others 
to shape debates as they see fit (barring of course completely banal 
contributions). The link between bona fides of American Exceptionalism 
and IG have been made apposite on this list. To merely insist that it is 
not is not debate, and moves to impose silence should be dealt with with 
balance and even handedness. And with what passes for acceptable 
discourse on this list, it is a hard core rebuttal unfortunately... and 
if people don't like it, they can bump me off this list or perhaps then 
give only as good as they are prepared to get... eye for an eye and all 
that...

On 2012/08/20 02:43 PM, Chaitanya Dhareshwar wrote:
> Diplomatic "indignity" is what we're left with just now. Sad situation 
> indeed.
> What would open their eyes?  (not suggesting anything here) A 
> petition? Signature campaign? Protest march? "Satyagraha" 
> movement? riots?
> -C
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com 
> <mailto:riaz.tayob at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     And the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Immunity be damned (they
>     UK threated to storm foreign territory, which is what an embassy
>     is)? Which certainly has implications for faith in American
>     Exceptionalism as a basis for CIR control.
>
>     So I guess the taking of American hostages in Iran at the time of
>     the overthrow of the American approved despot (the Shah) in the
>     1970s would be ok, retrospectively?
>
>     Funny, he skipped bail but is willing to fulfil the claims for
>     questioning on terms that do not expose him to the threat of
>     extradition. Extradition to the US may involve treatment like
>     Bradley Manning has received in US prison - long periods of
>     solitary confinement. This kind of treatment is against the EU
>     Bill of Rights, the findings of the UN Special Rapporteur on
>     Torture and regarded as unlawful (i.e. cruel and degrading
>     punishment) even by the New York Bar Association.
>
>     You see, if I don't like your principles on this matter, I have
>     others... so for me it is completely specious to start of
>     irrespective of extradition threat... its kinda like saying:
>     irrespective of the REAL threat of torture and/or cruel and
>     degrading punishment... which as you can surmise from my position
>     is a non starter . . .
>
>     ... and I will as always simply remain amazed at the robustness of
>     discussion on this list . . . which is refreshing for its candour,
>     of which we can all freely take part...
>
>
>
>     On 2012/08/20 07:53 AM, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>         In message <502F5826.4000506 at gmail.com
>         <mailto:502F5826.4000506 at gmail.com>>, at 10:53:58 on Sat, 18
>         Aug 2012, Riaz K Tayob <riaz.tayob at gmail.com
>         <mailto:riaz.tayob at gmail.com>> writes
>
>             The police presence, it added, had risen from two or three
>             to around 50, with officers on the embassy's fire escape
>             and at every window.
>
>
>         I haven't been following the main thread so apologies if this
>         is a repeat: Irrespective of any threat to extradite him, let
>         alone the Wikileaks episode, Assange is a plain and simple
>         fugitive from a UK court (he's skipped bail).
>
>         The British Police would be roundly criticised if they let him
>         escape through a back window in the middle of the night and
>         make off across Hyde Park.
>
>
>
>
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