[governance] Merger of workshop "Reflection on the Indian proposal towards an IGF 2.0"
Katitza Rodriguez
katitza at eff.org
Fri May 13 12:03:40 EDT 2011
+1
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Avri Doria<avri at acm.org> wrote:
>> Hi Fouad,
>>
>> I understand you not speaking on the substance of the threats on a public list.
>>
>> But I do not believe the shame is on you. It is on those who threaten. And it is something that the IGC should find a way to help you with given that you are one of ours. Perhaps if you talk to the Coordinators or others in Geneva confidentially, something can be figured out.
>>
>> a.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13 May 2011, at 10:43, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
>>
>>> McTim, threats don't happen on public record. They are made by reps of
>>> other stakeholder groups trying to create fear usually targeted to
>>> come to play in the country I come from.
>>>
>>> These have been made on issues like but not limited to ICANN,
>>> Information intermediary workshops, critical internet resources issues
>>> with regards to my country etc.
>>>
>>> I won't be sharing these in much more detail in public since the shame
>>> is on me and I am very sensitive.
>>>
>>> -- FoO
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Adam Peake<ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>>>> Fouad, how long have you been a MAG member?
>>>>
>>>> More important, it would be good to know of the nature of the threats you
>>>> experienced during the MAG meetings.
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 1:58 PM +0200 5/13/11, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
>>>>> I believe its misunderstanding the text here.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did not blame the coordinators, I said the steps required to ensure
>>>>> that IGC communicates during open consultations and MAG meetings. Its
>>>>> a coordinator effort.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sensitive is a good aspect as it enables realization and
>>>>> understanding. Sensitivity to issues and situations is a very humane
>>>>> activity and characteristic.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do feel sad when alumnus MAG members do not share their knowledge or
>>>>> gather existing MAG members and work with them on formulating strategy
>>>>> and countering the attacks that happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Its easy to point fingers but not easy to make things happen and it
>>>>> does take a certain sensitive mindset to make things happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for identifying the sensitivity in my nature.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fouad
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Adam Peake<ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>>>>>> Fouad, a shame you have taken such offence. I do know what it's like to
>>>>>> be
>>>>> > criticized... I was a MAG member and coordinator for a couple of years.
>>>>> But
>>>>> > you are very sensitive. And blaming the coordinators makes no sense,
>>>>> just do
>>>>>> your part.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More important though is something you say at the end of your long
>>>>>> email:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have already been threatened three times during MAG meetings etc and
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> does hold value.
>>>>>> Threats of what kind? Doesn't sound good at all. Please explain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the rest, hope all the MAG members will remember what they said
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> taking part in the nominating process and having names put forward for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> MAG. Not clear what any does anymore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kindly accept my apologies in advance for being direct as this is
>>>>>>> upsetting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Adam that would be arguable. I appreciate your coming back at me as if
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> or our MAG members may be faulty. I have never received a single
>>>>>>> response to
>>>>>>> my requests to the list when I requested for input. this happened in
>>>>>>> 2009,
>>>>>>> 2010 and now fingers being pointed in 2011 which is upsetting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At my end, i have taken IGC statements to the MAG meetings and
>>>>>>> attempted
>>>>>>> to the best of my knowledge. I have run after IGC members present
>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>> ongoing advice on issues. Ginger, Parminder, Anriyette, Jovan, Ian,
>>>>>>> Bertrand, Miguel, George, Qusai, Marillia, Bill and the list goes on
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> all been very kind and helping.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the first time in 3 years you interacted with me in the last mag
>>>>>>> meeting on issues of participation. Sorry to say Avri has been right in
>>>>>>> many
>>>>> >> circumstances and so has Parminder that IGC does lack coordination. It
>>>>> is
>>>>>>> not time to point fingers but to help work out and strategize for the
>>>>>>> upcoming meeting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People here come from various organizations and backgrounds. In my case
>>>>>>> the developing state is my major concern and the continuous death and
>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>> right violation issues associated with Internet policy are the biggest
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> threat to me, my citizenry and many others in the developing world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have witnessed that there is more interest in being part of mag by
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> then to actually tackle the issues relevant to IG. We have to get our
>>>>>>> act
>>>>>>> straight otherwise this is not belong us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where is IGC's MAG working group thread or discussions, why haven't the
>>>>> >> coordinators ever initiated such a thing? Why isn't there a skype
>>>>> discussion
>>>>>>> group for Igc in open consultations and mag? Why aren't we coordinated
>>>>>>> whereas we take so much time to relate and repeat histories of policy
>>>>> >> institutions and arrangements.
>>>>>>> I hear you Adam but you do have the senior experience and exposure to
>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>> us from developing countries, work with us and support advice sharing
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> open consultations and mag meetings. Being cynical is fine but really I
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> upset with all my developed country CS peers to be arguing on issues of
>>>>> >> least relevance to the developing world and more on history and
>>>>>>> Process theory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If we can't be helped by you then don't ridicule us especially when we
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> a victim of our own severe life threatening situations and still
>>>>>>> struggling.
>>>>>>> I have already been threatened three times during MAG meetings etc and
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> does hold value.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wish you and many others would be more understanding.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fouad Bajwa
>>>>>>> sent using my iPad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12 May 2011, at 05:58 PM, Adam Peake<ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:21 AM, Fouad Bajwa<fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I will be going to the meetings.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We have the workshop scoring activity underway already and it ends
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> the end of this week.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am focusing on IG4D Workshops.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IGC really needs to work with its MAG representatives on issues of
>>>>>>>>> interest.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You have that the wrong way round.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > MAG representatives really need to work with the IGC.
>>>>>>>> When nominated everyone made promises to consult, inform, etc. It's
>>>>>>>> not been happening.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>>>> '
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the short reply...travelling.....!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fouad
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 4:57 PM,<katitza at eff.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>> I'm going through all the workshops, one by one to be ready for
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> MAG.
>>>>>>>>>> However during the meeting, we might divided the work by themes. I
>>>>>>>>>> will be
>>>>>>>>>> working in the SOP workshops.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If there are other workshops that are well done (ie touching the
>>>>>>>>>> key
>>>>>>>>>> and hot
>>>>>>>>>> policy issues) that require highly attention, let me know so I do
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> miss
>>>>>>>>>> it! Katitza.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> From: katitza at eff.org
>>>>>>>>>> Sender: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 14:41:10 +0000
>>>>>>>>>> To:<governance at lists.cpsr.org>; Marilia
>>>>>>>>>> Maciel<mariliamaciel at gmail.com>;
>>>>>>>>>> Norbert Bollow<nb at bollow.ch>
>>>>>>>>>> ReplyTo: governance at lists.cpsr.org,katitza at eff.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Merger of workshop "Reflection on the
>>>>>>>>>> Indianproposal towards an IGF 2.0"
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. I'm going to Geneva for the MAG meeting (thanks to APC
>>>>>>>>>> support). I
>>>>>>>>>> will take care of the workshops. I haven't been following the list
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> last few weeks. Any update about the main concerns from IGC that I
>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>> make sure to defend, please let me know.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All the best, Katitza.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> From: Marilia Maciel<mariliamaciel at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sender: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 09:59:54 -0300
>>>>>>>>>> To:<governance at lists.cpsr.org>; Norbert Bollow<nb at bollow.ch>
>>>>>>>>>> ReplyTo: governance at lists.cpsr.org,Marilia Maciel
>>>>>>>>>> <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Merger of workshop "Reflection on the
>>>>>>>>>> Indian
>>>>>>>>>> proposal towards an IGF 2.0"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Like Jeremy said, the reasons are difficult to speculate. I believe
>>>>>>>>>> that our
>>>>>>>>>> main concern should be if the merger is in the best interest of our
>>>>>>>>>> proposal.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Two points I made in the meeting yesterday were that we should not
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> revival of CSTD WG (go through all topics in a superficial manner
>>>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>> reaching any conclusions) and we should not focus on procedural
>>>>>>>>>> issues
>>>>>>>>>> (ex:
>>>>>>>>>> CSTD WG x MAG as a way of improving the IGF). These are the two
>>>>>>>>>> potential
>>>>>>>>>> shortcomings of the proposals advanced, respectively, by the
>>>>>>>>>> business
>>>>>>>>>> sector
>>>>>>>>>> and the technical community, in my view.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A merger should not make us lose our focus. Using indian proposal
>>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>> starting point to discuss topics in-depth could help us ventilate
>>>>>>>>>> ideas,
>>>>>>>>>> reach a clear understanding and exorcise some ghosts that hunt
>>>>>>>>>> IGF¹s
>>>>>>>>>> closet
>>>>>>>>>> for a while, such as the fear of more concrete outcomes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The only possibility I see for a merger would be that we have a
>>>>>>>>>> longer
>>>>> >>>>> workshop, with half of it dedicated to a ³setting the scene² and
>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>> overview
>>>>>>>>>> of the main issues advanced in CSTD WG (that seems to be the core
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> proposal from the business sector) and the other half would be
>>>>>>>>>> dedicated to
>>>>>>>>>> focus on the topics covered by Indian proposal. But I don¹t know if
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> would be acceptable to the other groups and I am not convinced this
>>>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>>>> in the best interest of our proposal in the end, but only a move
>>>>>>>>>> driven by
>>>>>>>>>> political considerations.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In any case, we should just be aware that if we do not merge, other
>>>>>>>>>> groups
>>>>>>>>>> will probably try to impinge us with the political burden of
>>>>>>>>>> non-cooperation. We cannot let this stick. There are always several
>>>>>>>>>> IGF
>>>>>>>>>> workshops on NN, youth, etc. So why there can¹t be 2 or 3 workshops
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> IGF
>>>>>>>>>> improvement?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Marília
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:32 AM, Norbert Bollow<nb at bollow.ch>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Jeremy Malcolm<jeremy at ciroap.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/05/11 16:53, Norbert Bollow wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeremy Malcolm<jeremy at ciroap.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ICC/BASIS and ISOC were invited to participate in our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workshop,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Reflection on the Indian proposal towards an IGF 2.0".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responded by proposing competing workshops of their own and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the three be merged.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is their motivation for choosing this course of action known?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do their perspectives on workshop outcomes compare to the
>>>>>>> >>>>>> desires of Marilia and yourself?
>>>>>>>>>>>> A summary was sent around privately after the teleconference, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> have been requested not to repost it. Anyway, my notes of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> teleconference include a lot of catch-phrases like "holistic
>>>>>>>>>>>> dialogue",
>>>>>>>>>>>> "all-encompassing", "general debate", "range of ideas"... as
>>>>>>>>>>>> opposed
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the much more focused agenda for our workshop. I'm not sure how
>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>> more I can say about their motivations or perspectives, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> difficult to speculate.
>>>>>>>>>>> Ok, given that there has been plenty of holistic dialogue and
>>>>>>>>>>> general
>>>>>>>>>>> debate on the all-encompassing range of ideas already, I'd
>>>>>>>>>>> strongly
>>>>>>>>>>> support sticking to the "much more focused agenda" that Marilia
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> you have in mind. It's IMO not a bad thing to have two workshops
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> the same topic if the two workshops differ significantly in how
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> approach the topic, provided they're not scheduled to both take
>>>>>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>>>>>> at the same time. IGF participants are then free to attend one or
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> other or both. (I personally certainly won't be found attending
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> non-focused one, but nevertheless I think that there's nothing
>>>>>>>>>>> wrong
>>>>>>>>>>> with some groups wanting to organize another opportunity for a
>>>>>>>>>>> broad
>>>>>>>>>>> debate for those who wish to participate in that.)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>>>>>> Norbert
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards.
>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>> Fouad Bajwa
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards.
>>> --------------------------
>>> Fouad
>>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>
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--
Katitza Rodriguez
International Rights Director
Electronic Frontier Foundation
katitza at eff.org
katitza at datos-personales.org (personal email)
Please support EFF - Working to protect your digital rights and freedom of speech since 1990
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