[governance] MSism and democracy

[Carlos Vera Quintana]

Let's propose this for the next IGF in Nairobi.. Se apuntan?

Carlos Vera
-----Original Message-----
From: Marilia Maciel <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>
Sender: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:37:37 
To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>; McTim<dogwallah at gmail.com>
Reply-To: governance at lists.cpsr.org,Marilia Maciel <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>
Cc: parminder<parminder at itforchange.net>
Subject: Re: [governance] MSism and democracy

I have to say that this has been one of the best threads of discussion I
have ever seen on this list. I am sorry I jumped in late to comment on many
of the issues regarding multilingualism. But the way that the discussion has
shifted from one ISM to the other clearly illustrates Parminder´s point
about the need to improve multistakeholderism.

We opened the door of the IG regime (which was indeed a great achievement)
but then we assumed everyone interested will jump in, when there are SO many
people that face barriers to join the debate on an equal footing and on a
fair manner, such as language issues.

So, please, let´s stop saying, like I have heard many times during open
consultations, that the door is open and if someone is not among us, it is
either because they are not interested or they are too lazy to keep up.
There are serious issues and distortions that need to be corrected if we do
want to go after a fully multistakeholder and democratic IG regime.

Marília


On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 2:24 AM, McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 7:56 AM, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>
> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > So many times, in middle of key IG discussions focussed on the 'larger'
> IG
> > issues (and the corresponding forums or institutional possibilities)  and
> > not the technical administration kind, you have asked us to leave aside
> > those things and come to where 'real IG takes place'.
>
>
> That's right, as we are the CS Internet Governance Caucus, and not the
> "talking about the shape of the table" caucus that we seem to have
> become.
>
>
> These are your exact
> > words that pop up so very often on this list. But now you are disclaiming
> > that you dont consider stuff outside this narrow IG definition as not the
> > 'real IG'. Well, in any case, this is some progress and we can try to
> build
> > on it.
>
> We spend too much time on the "institutional possibilities" instead of
> the broader IG issues, which is what I find irksome.
>
>
> >
> > Your 'working models' correspond *only* to this narrow definition of
> > Internet governance. And I am almost always referring to the broader,
> more
> > political IG issues. You never ever acknowledge the governance needs of
> > these issues which most concern most of us here, much less come up with
> > working models for them.
> >
> > I have often suggested that we use the same model used in narrow
> > governance issues for the broader IG realm.
> >
> > Have you? This again confounds me. Can you re state those models you have
> in
> > mind to address the issues of the 'broader IG realm', the kind of issues
> > that are on the IGF's agenda?
>
>
> From your neck of the woods, I would suggest you look at the InternetNZ
> model.
>
>  Since you support multistakeholderism (MSism),
> > if you really were for extending such MS models to addressing these
> 'broader
> > IG issues' you should be supporting increasing the policy shaping role or
> > power of the IGF.
>
> not necessarily.  I firmly believe that governments have far too much
> say in the IGF processes, so i don't support it as policy shaping.  i
> do support it as policy discussion and capacity building however.
>
>
>  However, I have heard you consistently oppose any such
> > thing, and oppose it bitterly. Can you explain this paradox?
>
> see above.
>
>  And so if IGF
> > does not fit your idea of a MS model to address and help solve these
> broader
> > IG issues, what model are you suggesting as above. please elaborate.
>
> see above.
>
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > Good you took up this example. While you think Facebook's policies and
> its
> > architecture, which determines and constrains a considerable share of
> global
> > interactions today is merely a 'operational' issue, I do think it is an
> > outstandingly important social, political, cultural and economic issue.
> and
> > I think most on this list agree. Vittorio posted an email on another list
> a
> > couple of months back about how kids in Italy nowadays often have only
> > facebook on their mobiles and nothing else. For them facebook is the
> > Internet. And if it bothers you not at all that the facebook space is
> > proprietary, closed and non-transparent, and thus expectedly is
> > architectured to suit powerful economic and political interests, then
> indeed
> > we do have major differences.
>
> It's architected to make money, like many dot-coms.
>
> Much of it IS open-source:
>
> http://developers.facebook.com/opensource/
>
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2383283,00.asp
>
> If it was closed, there would be very little eco-system around it, and
> it would have already become MySpace/Friendster.
>
> I just don't believe that it, as a private entity, it needs a global
> treaty to oversee what it can and can't do.
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
> route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
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Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade
FGV Direito Rio

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