[governance] MSism and democracy

Wed Jun 8 08:08:02 EDT 2011

Genial esto, pero si no empezamos a tener debate en otros idiomas no vamos a
cambiar las preocupantes tendencias de las que se habla acá.
Lo vengo diciendo siempre en todos los espacios de la sociedad civil del
IGF, con nada de éxito.
Desde latino américa, Argentina específicamente,
Roxana Goldstein

2011/6/8 parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>

>  Dear Bertrand,
>
> Thanks for engaging with this discussion. I have always been very keen to
> get a serious discussion going on this subject, and rather to the contrary
> of what you say, it is the multistakeholderism (MS) enthusiast who have run
> away from probing questions both of (1)  the principled and logical basis of
> their beliefs and stances and (2) the precise working models of governance
> that they propose. I hope in this present discussion they, and you, can
> answer such questions.
>
> I have quite often stated my problems with  MSism as it mostly gets spoken
> of and practised in IG arena, including at the recent CoE meeting during the
> panel discussion moderated by you.
>
> Your email raises two specific issues, the first one is
>
> "what I am missing in your very critical comment ("*it is very much the
> wrong direction*") is the proposed alternative;"
>
>  The alternative is the original corrective to the shortcomings of
> representational democracy. This is what is spoken of as deepening democracy
> or what we may also call as participatory democracy (though not the anarchic
> versions of it which suffer from the precise ill you speak of - a real
> workable alternative model). Its institutional forms - existing and those
> possible in the future - have been well discussed in literature, and there
> is enough stuff about practical working models as well, including some about
> the global space. I am ready, in fact eager, to have a specific discussion
> on this.
>
> I have always engaged positively by presenting proposals of working models
> of what I (or we) want, and what for us is taking democracy forward rather
> than supplanting it. We, as in my organisation, worked with the Indian
> government delegates to come up with a clear proposal on how MAG for
> instance should be constituted, which addresses the negatives of MSism. This
> part of the 'Indian proposal' is enclosed, which is also largely contained
> in the contribution IT for Change made to the process. Is it not specific
> enough? Now, reversing the 'inquiring role' I am eager to know what are your
> own views on it.
>
> The second issue your raise is contained in the following part of your
> email.
>
> ".......imperfect as they are, aren't the experiences currently under way
> presenting more potential for broad participation, openness and "deeper
> democracy" (to use your formulation) than using only intergovernmental
> interaction in the UN or the G8 ? In a nutshell, what would you like to see
> that would be so different from what is being attempted in the IGF, for
> instance, that it would justify thrashing it instead of perfecting it ?"
>
> First of all I agree that 'only intergovernmental interaction in the UN or
> the G8' is not at all a good model, and it requires huge huge improvements
> changes. This must be obvious from my contributions to the IGC and other
> forums. However, my contention also is that MSism as currently practised in
> the IG arena may actually be making things worse.
>
> Deeper or participatory democracy is about getting in voices that are less
> powerful and less heard otherwise into the political processes. Can you
> honestly say that this is what the MS model in IG is doing currently? I do
> not think so. I think it has become a cover or a legitimising device for
> increased influence on policy making of those who are already very powerful,
> with which I mean the big business in the digital/ IT/ Internet space.
> There are numerous examples of this, and what is more problematic is how
> such huge transgressions to political and democratic propriety are
> routinely responded to by 'deep silences' on the part of MSism upholders.
> Such silences favouring the interests of the powerful, as you will also see
> from the Spanish protests (as also earlier ones in the Arab world), are the
> very anti-thesis of new democratic processes that we would like to see take
> root. Following are but a very few examples of what MSism in IG space is
> really showing up to be....
>
> 1) Anyone who has seen MAG work know who almost completely dominates the
> discourse and the outcomes thereof. I wont go into specific details here but
> am happy to discuss this further if you so want. Developing country gov reps
> have consistently raised this issue in their private conversations about the
> IGF and the MAG. Very often this is the first and the main issue they raise,
> and I have to agree with them.
>
> 2) e G 8 forums, which despite our protests remained what it was supposed
> to. Then there is this French presidents digital advisory council made
> exclusively of big business.
>
> 3) Two mega digital corporations, most affected by the proposed regulation,
> together practically wrote the net neutrality legislation of the the county
> which is the digital capital of the world. One would, today, still think it
> impossible that the top drug company and the top private hospital chain in
> the US 'openly' (lobbying and pushing text secretively is a different thing)
> come up with the default  health policy draft, even in the US. This is an
> instance of the kind of 'firsts' that the IG world is contributing to our
> political systems, and the MS discourse certainly has something to so with
> it.
>
> 4) The UN broadband commission was headed by someone who has  a practical
> monopoly on a major country's telecom business, and who acquired this
> business by buying off the incumbent public sector company through means
> that have been severely questioned. Again a first in the name of MSism.
>
> 5) Closer home in India, some proprietary software and digital content
> companies, interested in the huge public education 'market' of India, quite
> ingeniously managed to become the key and driving participants of an
> 'officially' mandated MS process of writing a draft for India's 'ICTs in
> schools' policy. The draft that came out was of course on the expected
> lines. It took a huge amount of work from organisation like ours to get the
> drafting process scrapped by the minister involved. But such things have not
> stopped.... So it is not for the joy of contrarinian-ism that I offer
> critiques to MSism, this has had central implications to my organisation's
> political struggles.
>
> 6) Dept of IT in India has a couple of advisory groups consisting only of
> big business reps apart form gov, and also frequently holds consultations
> where only these big business reps are invited. (see for a recent  meeting
> of such kind
> http://www.mit.gov.in/sites/upload_files/dit/files/MinutesofmeetingNationalRolloutofe-district2ndMay2011.pdf). This kind of stuff, thankfully, still does not happen in any other
> department in India.
>
> The instances are endless. So when you say there are issues with MSism, to
> quote your email, 'such as the risks of capture, the weight of some actors,
> the north-south unbalances and the representation of the unrepresented' ,
> one needs to know clearly what is being done about them. Merely mentioning
> them as a footnote is of little use to those whom these issues really
> bother. What I see is that there seems not even the readiness to debate
> these issues, much less do anything about them, which to me confirms my
> hypothesis regarding who holds the reins of much what goes for MSism in the
> IG arena.
>
> Also, another question that MSists never seem to respond to is - are they
> ready to have their countries governed through the same kind of hazy MSism
> as they recommend for global governance? If not why this discrimination -
> democracy at home, MSism abroad. Is it because global democracy brings the
> danger of global redistributions with it, and MSism on the other hand helps
> promote Northern businesses establish even greater global dominance and thus
> creates transfer channels in directions opposite to what globally democratic
> political systems will tend to do. Is this not the actual reason for
> Northern governments' enthusiasm for MSism in the global IG arena (but not
> at places where they themselves make decisions), and what is really behind
> the 'friendly governments' discourse frequently heard on this list.
>
> Happy to hear you responses to the above and engage further.
>
> Parminder
>
> On Thursday 02 June 2011 09:37 PM, Bertrand de La Chapelle wrote:
>
> Dear Parminder,
>
>  Thanks for sharing the article.
>
>  Two points on your remarks:
> - fully agree on "new institutional possibilities of participatory
> democracy" not fully explored yet; probably new tools can be invented;
> - I know your reticences - often voiced on the list - regarding the current
> modalities of "multi-stakeholderism" and some of them do deserve attention
> (such as the risks of capture, the weight of some actors, the north-south
> unbalances and the representation of the unrepresented); however, what I am
> missing in your very critical comment ("*it is very much the wrong
> direction*") is the proposed alternative; imperfect as they are, aren't
> the experiences currently under way presenting more potential for broad
> participation, openness and "deeper democracy" (to use your formulation)
> than using only intergovernmental interaction in the UN or the G8 ?
>
>  In a nutshell, what would you like to see that would be so different from
> what is being attempted in the IGF, for instance, that it would justify
> thrashing it instead of perfecting it ?
>
>  Best
>
>  Bertrand
>
>
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